Bloodlines

[Nohwl]

im going to be dming for my first time and a player asked if he could use a bloodline. ive just glanced at it on the srd, and was wondering how broken were they? i dont think anyone else wanted one, and its pretty low level optimization if that helps.

[Frosty]

Are you talking about Unearthed Arcana Bloodlines? They're...not worth it, in my opinions.

[Nohwl]

probably. ive only seen them used once before, the other player didnt seem to know what he was doing.

[Frosty]

They're Level Adjustments under another name. The benefits they give are not in line with the LA required.

[Darrin]

im going to be dming for my first time and a player asked if he could use a bloodline. ive just glanced at it on the srd, and was wondering how broken were they? i dont think anyone else wanted one, and its pretty low level optimization if that helps.

Make sure the player is referring to the bloodlines from UA/SRD. Dragon Magazine has published a series of Bloodline-related feats to provide more interesting options for sorcerers. Some of these have been reprinted in the Dragon Compendium.

If your player is referring to Bloodline levels, then effectiveness could range from "not very" to "win button with extra-zesty borking sauce". If the player is playing a spellcaster trying to mitigate the cost of multi-classing, then it's not all that optimal. A full spellcaster that never loses any caster levels will still be better optimized than a spellcaster with bloodline levels.

If the spellcaster commited the unpardonable sin of taking non-caster levels, the Practised Spellcaster feat is usually a better option than giving up a couple levels worth of BAB/HP/Saves. Most heavy optimizers stay away from Bloodline levels, with a few notable exceptions, which are usually class abilities that scale up by a particular class level. Bloodline levels count as +1 class level for all your class-level dependent abilities, so you can sometimes boost your class level up higher than the designers ever intended.

The best example is probably a War Weaver, since the highest spell level he can weave into his tapestry is based on his War Weaver class level. Bloodline levels increase his class level, so I think you can get up to 7th level spells woven into your tapestry. However, the War Weaver doesn't gain new spell levels if he's taking Bloodline levels, so there's a bit of a trade-off.

The most egregious abuse is inflating Initiator Levels with Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Sword classes (Crusader, SwordSage, Warblade). A series of one-level dips plus bloodline levels can get you access to higher level maneuvers at much lower levels (including BassetKing's "Infinite Damage" 1d2 Crusader combo around ECL 9). I'm a bit fuzzy on the math however, since it's not clear if the bloodline levels themselves count as 0.5 IL in addition to +1.0 on all your other class levels.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

They can be cheesed, but such is rare. They usually aren't worth the loss unless you're using bloodlines to progress Hellfire damage past level 3 or something.

[RagnaroksChosen]

waste of space... there realy bad

if you think your pcs are underpowered or need a boost some how give them a blood line for free... they can be alot of fun..

but in a normal game they suck.

[Crow]

They aren't broken in the least. Remember, they have to take a level of "bloodline" at certain points to gain further benefits from the bloodline.

I wouldn't consider them worth it, to be honest. It's one of the situations where I'd actually rather take a template.

Bloodline feats on the other hand, are kick-ass. Especially for non-spellcasters.

[Theodoxus]

My DM allowed me to take a major bloodline to help neutralize the power of my druid! I took Djinni, and am mastering air elemental summoning (have an elemental companion and everything.) The 3 level loss of spells without the accompanying caster level loss was appealing. The synergy was nice (as was the bonus to Wis!) and allowed my druid to not completely overpower the rest of the party while still being a ton of fun to play.

[Frosty]

Perfect example up above. Bloodlines are great for WEAKENING your character.

[Spiryt]

Well, dunno if they're balanced but they're quite fun IMO.

And good for GM who wants to make some postnucl... original NPC.

[Crow]

Perfect example up above. Bloodlines are great for WEAKENING your character.

Yes, but mechanical power doesn't matter to some people as much as flavor. I doubt it will be a problem for this DM, from the sound of his original post.

[Tokiko Mima]

I think probably the most abusable bloodline is Titan Bloodlines' 'Use Oversized Weapon (Ex)' which from a strict reading allows a medium sized character to wield a Gargantuan two handed warhammer without penalty. But they still can't dual wield it. Sorry anime fans. :smalltongue:

In general, Bloodlines weaken characters and are suboptimal. You have to be careful with the clause they have though, that they advance most calculations based on class level. Also be aware that if this is a low level campaign Bloodlines are essentially like getting powers for free. If you never hit level 12, for example, you'll never have to pay for your minor Bloodline. If you never hit 6 your intermediate Bloodline is likewise not an issue.

[Frosty]

Yes, but mechanical power doesn't matter to some people as much as flavor. I doubt it will be a problem for this DM, from the sound of his original post.

He was asking how Broken bloodlines are. I gave an honest answer.

[Ascension]

I think probably the most abusable bloodline is Titan Bloodlines' 'Use Oversized Weapon (Ex)' which from a strict reading allows a medium sized character to wield a Gargantuan two handed warhammer without penalty.

GRAF EISEN! GIGANTFORM!

:smallbiggrin:

[Crow]

He was asking how Broken bloodlines are. I gave an honest answer.

It depends if the player is actually planning to take bloodline levels or not. If the player doesn't plan on taking them, and the campaign will never see level 12, then you can at least pick up a minor bloodline for a small skill bonus and maybe a feat that you wouldn't otherwise spend a feat on.

[Nohwl]

he wants a major one and wants to be a necromancer. im not sure what class he was going to be though.

it sounds like it would be in line with about how strong the other characters would be, so ill give it to him. thanks for your help.

[LCR]

GRAF EISEN! GIGANTFORM!

:smallbiggrin:

What is it with the silly German?

[Tokiko Mima]

What is it with the silly German?

That would be Vita, summoning an enormous hammer. Sometimes it has rockets, too.

[SoD]

Mechanically: bloodlines are inherently weak. Small bonuses in exchange for loosing everything at different levels.

To make them stronger, instead of making a level of bloodline 0 hp, make it 1d0 hp (+ con mod). Same with skill points (int mod skill points).

Flavourwise, you can just say: "Oh, I'm decended from x." However, flavourwise, just saying it doesn't give you anything in return (except what you'd stand to loose).



That being said, some people don't care if their character is overpowered, or underpowered, or perfectly balanced. If they're having fun, let them take it. If they want to take it, make sure they know beforehand that it's underpowering, but if they don't care, let them take it, and don't make a big deal out of it. Simple.

[Nohwl]

he wanted the celestial one for a necromancer. i told him no.