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View Full Version : Random thought occurs re: Warmage and Sublime Chord



AstralFire
2008-09-03, 04:49 PM
I don't remember the Sublime Chord's entrance requirements and I do not have access to the majority of my library right now. Would something crazy like Bard 1/Warmage whatever classify for Sublime Chord and in the process gain spontaneous access to the entire Sor/Wiz list? (This is, of course, predicated on the RAW but RAnI reading that any PrC that grants spells on list adds these spells to the Warmage's spells known: everything on list, rather than a choice for Adaptive Learning.)

I'm vaguely bored, so I am curious.

arguskos
2008-09-03, 04:53 PM
Looking it over, Warmage specifically says: "he may cast any spell he knows at any time, provided he has spell slots". Chord says that you can CAST the sorcerer/wizard list with the Sublime Chord spells/day, not that they are added to a previous list.

So, no, I don't think that works. Chord casting is separate from other casting.

-argus

monty
2008-09-03, 04:54 PM
Sublime Chord gets its own separate casting progression; it's not a "+1 existing" PrC. So it'd be no more useful than, say, Ur-Priest.

AstralFire
2008-09-03, 04:57 PM
Sublime Chord gets its own separate casting progression; it's not a "+1 existing" PrC. So it'd be no more useful than, say, Ur-Priest.

I figured it'd have been mentioned already somewhere if there wasn't a major hitch, but like I said, away from my collection right now. Thanks for the info.

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-03, 05:01 PM
Looking it over, Warmage specifically says: "he may cast any spell he knows at any time, provided he has spell slots". Chord says that you can CAST the sorcerer/wizard list with the Sublime Chord spells/day, not that they are added to a previous list.

So, no, I don't think that works. Chord casting is separate from other casting.

-argus

So, wait, by the rules of Sublime Chord, you can cast the spells but don't know them?

monty
2008-09-03, 05:03 PM
So, wait, by the rules of Sublime Chord, you can cast the spells but don't know them?

No, it says "prepares and casts spells just as a sorcerer does..."

AstralFire
2008-09-03, 05:03 PM
So, wait, by the rules of Sublime Chord, you can cast the spells but don't know them?

The Warmage "Spell List = Spells Known" thing only applies to things on the Warmage casting spell list.

Sublime Chord gives you a second spell list that just so happens to mesh perfectly with the lower bard casting list and starts at 4th rather than 1st level casting. You don't actually improve whatever spellcasting you used to qualify for the class.

arguskos
2008-09-03, 05:20 PM
Interestingly enough, though Sublime Chord gives you the option of choosing either the Sor/Wiz list, or the Bard list, it doesn't extend the Bard list past 6th level spells... so if you choose to cast from the Bard list, you're screwed.

-argus

monty
2008-09-03, 05:22 PM
Interestingly enough, though Sublime Chord gives you the option of choosing either the Sor/Wiz list, or the Bard list, it doesn't extend the Bard list past 6th level spells... so if you choose to cast from the Bard list, you're screwed.

-argus

I thought that meant you could choose any spell from either list, not that you had to pick one and be stuck with it.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 05:23 PM
Interestingly enough, though Sublime Chord gives you the option of choosing either the Sor/Wiz list, or the Bard list, it doesn't extend the Bard list past 6th level spells... so if you choose to cast from the Bard list, you're screwed.

-argus

*but* you can do things like...cast a Reached Otto's Irresistable Dance, and Chain it too, if you take Arcane Thesis.

arguskos
2008-09-03, 05:25 PM
Unless that's been errata'd (likely), it says sor/wiz OR bard. Which is confusing. Seriously confusing.

Random note: a bard 1/wizard x/sublime chord can totally cast high-level stuff with light armor on (since Sublime Chord spells don't incur failure in light armor). Man, I LOVE Sublime Chord. :smallbiggrin:

-argus

monty
2008-09-03, 05:29 PM
It continues, though, to say

if a spell appears on both lists at different levels, she uses the bard version of the spell.
This very strongly implies that you get both lists.

Also, why wizard x?

arguskos
2008-09-03, 05:35 PM
I'm in class, so I don't have time to figure out what level Wizard can get into the class. I'd ballpark it at 7-9, but I'm not sure. >_<

Also, that quote only applies to spells on both lists, which means that if a Bard spell is lower level, use it instead of the Sor/Wiz spell. It does not give access to spells that aren't on the Bard list if you choose to use the Bard list. For example, disintegrate is only on one list. Time Stop is only on one list. Etc...

Nowhere does it say you get both, nor does it even imply it. It's a goof on their part (one I sincerely hope got errata'd).

-argus

monty
2008-09-03, 05:42 PM
Sublime Chord requires 13 ranks in multiple skills, so you can't get into it before level 10 (bards get 3rd level spells at 7, so that's more than enough time).

arguskos
2008-09-03, 07:03 PM
That's true, I missed that.

Hmm, I just had another fun idea for Sublime Chord:
Bard 1/Wizard 9/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 9

Now, my only concern here is that you won't have enough vital ranks by level 10. But, if you did, it'd be fun, because you can use Magus on Wizard/Chord (chord is spontaneous casting), and get lots of high level stuff. :smallbiggrin:

-argus

AstralFire
2008-09-03, 07:09 PM
That's true, I missed that.

Hmm, I just had another fun idea for Sublime Chord:
Bard 1/Wizard 9/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 9

Now, my only concern here is that you won't have enough vital ranks by level 10. But, if you did, it'd be fun, because you can use Magus on Wizard/Chord (chord is spontaneous casting), and get lots of high level stuff. :smallbiggrin:

-argus

If you grab Able Learner, you should be able to make it no issue.

arguskos
2008-09-03, 07:11 PM
What is Able Learner, and where is it from (this character interests me, and I may play it next chance I get to play, not DM)?

-argus

Frosty
2008-09-03, 07:14 PM
Able Learner is a feat from Races of Destiny. All cross-class skills only cost 1 to buy instead of 2.

AstralFire
2008-09-03, 07:17 PM
Able Learner is a feat from Races of Destiny. All cross-class skills only cost 1 to buy instead of 2.

Right. And coupled with your Bard skill list setting your maximum rank levels, you should be good to go. Human only, though.

arguskos
2008-09-03, 07:18 PM
I thought cross-class cost 1 rank each, but had a max rank cap of (level+3)/2, ie. half normal skill rank cap.

That's how I've always played it... and in fact, I thought that was core. >_< :smalleek:

Well, thanks for opening my eyes to my folly in this regards.

-argus

Frosty
2008-09-03, 07:22 PM
Right. And coupled with your Bard skill list setting your maximum rank levels, you should be good to go. Human only, though.

Well, doppleganger and Changelings too...

AstralFire
2008-09-03, 07:23 PM
I thought cross-class cost 1 rank each, but had a max rank cap of (level+3)/2, ie. half normal skill rank cap.

That's how I've always played it... and in fact, I thought that was core. >_< :smalleek:

Well, thanks for opening my eyes to my folly in this regards.

-argus

Nope. It's max rank cap of ˝(Level+3) as you said, but if any of your classes have it as a class skill, it goes to simply (Level+3). But if your current class doesn't have it as a skill, it's a 2 point:1 rank ratio.

Though, as a DM I usually house rule it to the way you do it.

monty
2008-09-03, 07:23 PM
Human only, though.

Or doppelganger or changeling.

arguskos
2008-09-03, 07:27 PM
Uh.... ok, so I'm totally lost now. I thought I had it down, but I guess I don't?

Lessee if I have this right:
-Max Skill Ranks in a given skill are decided by starting class.
-Max ranks in class skills = Level+3; cross-class skills = (Level+3)/2
-Each cross-class point costs 2 skill points.

If that is correct, then DAMN, it's stupid. >_>

Anyway, cool, I think I got it now. So, to nip off and make that Ultimate Sublime Bard Magus...

-argus

AstralFire
2008-09-03, 07:29 PM
-Max Skill Ranks in a given skill are decided by any class you possess.
-Each cross-class point costs 2 skill points.

There you go.

monty
2008-09-03, 07:32 PM
Max ranks: If it's a class skill for any class you have, it's always character level + 3, regardless of the class you're currently progressing. If it's not, divide by 2.

Cost per (full) rank: If it's a class skill when you buy the rank, it costs 1, otherwise 2. However, I'm pretty sure you can choose not to spend a point and then use it if the skill becomes in-class again.

Able Learner affects the cost, but not the max ranks. That is, whether or not it's a class skill, it always costs 1 per rank, but if it's not a class skill, it still has the rank limit.

arguskos
2008-09-03, 07:32 PM
ANY class?? (factorum much??) Wow, I used that as a houserule a while ago, and my players though it was overpowered! I feel smart now...

Thanks again!

-argus

monty
2008-09-03, 07:33 PM
Yes, a dip in Factotum with Able Learner will make all skills completely in-class, forever.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-03, 07:36 PM
From the SRD...


Skills
If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.


And again...



If you buy a class skill, your character gets 1 rank (equal to a +1 bonus on checks with that skill) for each skill point. If you buy other classes’ skills (cross-class skills), you get ˝ rank per skill point.

Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.

Your maximum rank in a cross-class skill is one-half of this number (do not round up or down).

What Able Learner does is it changes the cost of cross-class skills to 1 rank per skill point instead of ˝ rank per skill point. This makes many multi-class characters more functional.

Also note that whilst it denotes human as the main race that can take the feat, human descended races can also take it (due to their heritage). This opens it up to Skulks, Mongrelfolk, etc.

Douglas
2008-09-03, 08:32 PM
However, I'm pretty sure you can choose not to spend a point and then use it if the skill becomes in-class again.
In Neverwinter Nights, yes, though NWN 2 doesn't let you save up more than 5. In D&D 3.5, no. See PHB page 62, second column, third paragraph.

Akimbo
2008-09-03, 10:08 PM
1) The Wizard 9/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 9 was proposed when the Ultimate Magus first came out.

2) It says that they may cast spells from the Bard or Wizard lists, The Or is inclusive. Like in probability theory or formal logic. You can get Glibness, Otto's at level 6, and still get Shapechange and Time Stop.

It wasn't a goof, it was you reading it wrong.

3) My current Sublime Chord character that I'm working on is a Sorcerer 5/PrC 2/Bard 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 1/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 9. Specializes in binding creatures and polymorph. Either Kobold or Star Elf (for the outsider type for Polymorph). Depends on likely levels and DM rulings.

nargbop
2008-09-03, 10:45 PM
Warmage was intentionally made with a limited spell selection because it was better at one thing : blasting. Warmage edge gives a little extra on top of the constrictive damage caps.

OP, instead of trying to stretch the rules, have a chat with your DM to lighten the rules on Warmage instead. My suggestion for homebrew : allow Advanced Learning to be from any school.

Otherwise, it's Use Magic Device or nothing

arguskos
2008-09-03, 10:58 PM
2) It says that they may cast spells from the Bard or Wizard lists, The Or is inclusive. Like in probability theory or formal logic. You can get Glibness, Otto's at level 6, and still get Shapechange and Time Stop.
Hmm, perhaps, rather than relying upon the reader knowing when the "or" is inclusive or not, they should simply use an "and". *shrug* That's helpful though, so thanks for the heads-up.

-argus

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-03, 10:59 PM
Warmage, by Logicninja. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=963854)

In all honesty, any boost to the Warmage is good, they're massively underpowered. A well-built Sorc will crush them, even in straight blasting.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 11:22 PM
Warmage, by Logicninja. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=963854)

In all honesty, any boost to the Warmage is good, they're massively underpowered. A well-built Sorc will crush them, even in straight blasting.


Being crushed by the sorcerer is not a sign of being massively underpowered.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-03, 11:28 PM
Being crushed by the sorcerer is not a sign of being massively underpowered.It is for a Caster class. Sorc is, IMHO, just a bit above where a class should be in terms of power at most levels, and not a real problem till level 16 or so. Lower power+more options would be better, but that's how I consider balance. And if your class would be better as a Sorcerer in terms of both power and options, then there's a problem.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 11:32 PM
Well the Sorcerer beats the Beguiler as well, but I don't think anyone really thinks the Beguiler needs a lot of boosting (Eccletic learning would be nice though).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-03, 11:36 PM
Well the Sorcerer beats the Beguiler as well, but I don't think anyone really thinks the Beguiler needs a lot of boosting (Eccletic learning would be nice though).Not really. The Sorc beats the Beguiler at straight casting, even of illusion/enchantment, but the Beguiler's a skillmonkey, too, and that counteracts the loss of spells. It works out.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 11:38 PM
I thought most optimizers basically discount skills since spells are so much better?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-03, 11:42 PM
I thought most optimizers basically discount skills since spells are so much better?I've never seen that. Invisibility beats Hide, but nothing beats Disable Device, and Search is better than Detect Traps without a massive investment of slots.

Akimbo
2008-09-03, 11:48 PM
I thought most optimizers basically discount skills since spells are so much better?

Only if you can have all the spells. Sorcerers are limited enough that you can't compete with a Beguiler at what he's good at.

Not to mention Beguiler actually has good spells at every level, unlike Warmage.

Beguilers are flat amazing. Easily the equal of Sorcerers if you don't use Polymorph and Shapechange.

Frosty
2008-09-04, 12:07 AM
Only if you can have all the spells. Sorcerers are limited enough that you can't compete with a Beguiler at what he's good at.

Not to mention Beguiler actually has good spells at every level, unlike Warmage.

Beguilers are flat amazing. Easily the equal of Sorcerers if you don't use Polymorph and Shapechange.

I think they're amazing until level 12...after which they kinda peter out. They're still useful, but the levels 6 thru 9 spell list just doesn't scream "awesome" to me.

AstralFire
2008-09-04, 06:56 AM
Warmage was intentionally made with a limited spell selection because it was better at one thing : blasting. Warmage edge gives a little extra on top of the constrictive damage caps.

OP, instead of trying to stretch the rules, have a chat with your DM to lighten the rules on Warmage instead. My suggestion for homebrew : allow Advanced Learning to be from any school.

Otherwise, it's Use Magic Device or nothing


1) I am the DM.
2) Don't assume that every "huh, I wonder if this would work" is in the context of "gee, how can I break the campaign." This was for curiosity's sake, purely.