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Frosty
2008-09-03, 06:33 PM
If someone with one of those White Raven charge maneuvers that take a full-round action to use as part of a charge attack is standing next to a Cruasder with the Thicket of Blades stance and has the Stand Still feat, does the Charge maneuver provoke an AoO?

The charge maneuver states that this movement does not provoke an AoO, but Thick of Blades says that any movement provokes. If the charge DOES provoke, and the movement was canceled due to Stand Still, would the charger have no actions except a Swift action and Free actions?

On a related note, can someoen charge while being threatened by a Knight since all the area that a Knight threatens counts as difficult terrain?

Aron Times
2008-09-03, 06:36 PM
Which edition is this?

Eldariel
2008-09-03, 06:37 PM
It's unclear. Generally people go with the "higher level maneuver wins out". So White Raven-charges above level 3 would ignore Thicket of Blades. I generally go with the "Thicket of Blades always wins" la Magic. And if the full-round action is interrupted and can't be finished, it's still considered expended so that's all he's got.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-03, 06:42 PM
Which edition is this?

3.5 as only it had Crusaders (I think unless 2nd did as a Variant Pally).

No, I don't think you charge away from a Knight if they count as difficult terrain.

KillianHawkeye
2008-09-03, 07:10 PM
The charge maneuver states that this movement does not provoke an AoO, but Thick of Blades says that any movement provokes.

To clarify, the attack portion of the charge does not provoke AoOs, however any associated movement still provokes as per normal movement.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 07:10 PM
It's unclear. Generally people go with the "higher level maneuver wins out". So White Raven-charges above level 3 would ignore Thicket of Blades. I generally go with the "Thicket of Blades always wins" la Magic. And if the full-round action is interrupted and can't be finished, it's still considered expended so that's all he's got.

It' kinda like the Tumble or Spring-Attack vs Thicket of blades thing as well.

Joseph, this is definitely 3.5, as I am referencing Tome of Battle abilities.


To clarify, the attack portion of the charge does not provoke AoOs, however any associated movement still provokes as per normal movement.

What associated movement? The entire movement ENDS with the attack unless you use Ride-by-Attack somehow with this maneuver.

monty
2008-09-03, 07:28 PM
Does this fall under "specific trumps general"? The general of "everything provokes" versus the specific of "this doesn't provoke"?

Frosty
2008-09-03, 08:35 PM
We must summon Lord Silvanous to answer!

SurlySeraph
2008-09-03, 09:05 PM
Flip a coin.

Duke of URL
2008-09-03, 09:19 PM
If the charge does provoke... do the Shadow Hand boosts that allow for short teleports provoke as well?

Person_Man
2008-09-03, 09:35 PM
Well, Thicket of Blades specifies that "any type of movement" provokes, "even a 5 ft step." It doesn't specifically exclude Tumble or Spring Attack or whatnot, or any of the various other powers/feats/items that prevent AoO.

I'd force a Test of Wills or something similar - have them make an opposed level check.

But yeah, PM Silvanos and do what he says. He's right about this kind of stuff 99% of the time.

namo
2008-09-03, 09:55 PM
I'm part of the crowd that goes for "higher level wins". There's no RAW answer since both wordings are absolute.

The Knight ability only makes it difficult terrain if you start your turn within his reach - so most charges won't be impaired.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 10:35 PM
What I meant was the character trying to charge OUT of the Knight's threatened area.

Superglucose
2008-09-03, 11:12 PM
What I meant was the character trying to charge OUT of the Knight's threatened area.

He can't charge out, if what I'm reading is true, unless he has some other way of charging over difficult terrain. If he can't charge, it doesn't matter.

If he CAN overcome difficult terrain by some other method, then I don't know.

Frosty
2008-09-03, 11:21 PM
Well, Thicket of Blades specifies that "any type of movement" provokes, "even a 5 ft step." It doesn't specifically exclude Tumble or Spring Attack or whatnot, or any of the various other powers/feats/items that prevent AoO.

I'd force a Test of Wills or something similar - have them make an opposed level check.

But yeah, PM Silvanos and do what he says. He's right about this kind of stuff 99% of the time.

Maybe have one ability cancel the other? You can charge...and you';ll provoke like normal unless youmake the DC 25 Tumble check?

Dode
2008-09-03, 11:32 PM
Hmmm...

"You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving as part of this charge" vs. "Any opponent you threaten that takes any sort of movement, including a 5 foot step, provokes an attack of opportunity from you"


hard to say

Eldariel
2008-09-04, 04:03 AM
I allow Thicket of Blades prevail over Tumble and Spring Attack simply because it seems stupid to limit "all movement" just to "normal and 5' steps". Then, the White Raven-charges solve.