121 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 109

[Nad]

Looks like we're going to see a tunnel collapse soon! :smallsmile:

[BobVosh]

Death to the heavies by collapsable tunnel :D

So anyway, conclusions on Jack's sanity?

[ishnar]

We try things. Occasionally they even work.

I like :)

Jack sounds rather depressed. Makes me feel sorry for him.

[Nad]

He's a foolmancer, I'd guess that they speak in riddles which will make it interesting to see how he tries to convince Stanley to come home.

What would be even better is if we get to see how great of a foolmancer Jack really is by him using his foolmancy to trick Stanley into going home...

[K2]

Sweet, upcoming character death.

Hail TOOL!

[Demented]

Apparently there's an archon applying some very high-tech methods of espionage on Lord Hampster. Security breach!

[Vesilasi]

Jack has moved from Shakespeare to old proverbs.

And of course, the unsound effect IKEA of the gobwins' charge is "Ingvar Kamprad Elmtaryd Agunnaryd", the Swedish home furnishings retailer.

[Welf]

Maybe I oversee something, but aren't these gobwins stacks without a warlord? Shouldn't such stacks autoattack? I havn't read a exception for scouts.

[Generalissimus]

Did you notice the Gobwin´s faces? They Gobwins seem truly assured about the battle...


BTW, What does "snap out" means?

[Justyn]

If I were in Parson's position, I would try and capture Webinar and Dora. Parson is in desperate need of warlords at the moment, and taking two of them, even if they cannot immediately be used against their former employer (Loyalty spells are one reason. Maybe Parson could make his very own Room 101; can Thinkamancers read minds?) is a great boon for him; he will very likely be gaining whatever casters that the coalition brought (likely two Healomancers at the least).

Anyhoo, who else thinks that Jack did snap out of it, and he's now just playing the fool?

[gatitcz]

Have we seen the "IKEA" sound effect before?

[keeganknorr]

the stacks don't auto attack because the tunnels are part of the city and warlords are in the city?

[Generalissimus]

Have we seen the "IKEA" sound effect before?

We had a "Leeroy" (which I misinterpreted as a reference to Leroy Merlin) in the dwagon attack to the Coalition´s siege weapons.

So, "snap out" means " return to sanity?

[rxmd]

This is Parson's turn, and all of this has to happen on this same turn, otherwise the city will fall on the next turn or so. How is tracking units, pursuing them or leading them into traps meant to work in a turn-based strategy game? All of these require the other unit to react in a way that requires a certain initiative and freedom of movement.

[pdwalker]

Augh! Does anyone fell like this is going to be the longest, absolutely the longest turn ever?

[Justyn]

We had a "Leeroy" (which I misinterpreted as a reference to Leroy Merlin) in the dwagon attack to the Coalition´s siege weapons.

So, "snap out" means " return to sanity?

Do you mean Leeroy Jenkins? That's referencing something else (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LeeroyJenkins).

[Amplify]

This is Parson's turn, and all of this has to happen on this same turn, otherwise the city will fall on the next turn or so. How is tracking units, pursuing them or leading them into traps meant to work in a turn-based strategy game? All of these require the other unit to react in a way that requires a certain initiative and freedom of movement.

I cite the Heroes of might and magic as an example. In there, everybody takes turns moving but when a battle is initiated the mechanics change, each side moving thier units around the battlefriend area untill one side is victorious or some conclusion is reached. It's still the person who attacked's turn, but it allows the attacked person to defend themselves in battle.

[Greg]

Maybe I oversee something, but aren't these gobwins stacks without a warlord? Shouldn't such stacks autoattack? I havn't read a exception for scouts.
Sizemore is in the tunnels. Does that count as the same hex.

[Daran]

Sizemore is in the tunnels. Does that count as the same hex.

I don't think so. The tunnels are bigger than one hex or else the Marbits would have reched the city within one hex-move. But he's porbably in the same hex as his golems, giving them a huge bonus.
And besides, do What-ever-mancers count as Warlords (able to lead stacks just like them)?

Looks like Webinar and his girlfriend survived. They sure look angry ...
also I liked the War Cry: IKEA *g* Everyones favorite Shopping Place

[JeffJway]

I don't think Jack is going to help. I feel he is faking his insanity and leading Tool into the trap willingly.
His first line, "a wise man sees more from the bottom of a well then a fool from a mountain top" seems to me that he is telling Parson that he rather be in the thick of the action then abstracted out to a command overview point. That he can do more being there.

His second, "a wise man gets more use from his enemis than a fool from his friends" I feei means than he is going to make use use of his enemy: Stanley to bring about Stanley's own demise.

Of course, Jack could be saying he's going to make use of the transvito enemies to do the job...

Just my opinion.
IKEAAA!!!!

[MrPhil]

Maybe I oversee something, but aren't these gobwins stacks without a warlord? Shouldn't such stacks autoattack? I havn't read a exception for scouts.

I took this to be that the *single* scout runs off down the tunnel until it bumps into an enemy stack and auto-engages. If the stack has no warlord, then the other gobwins behind pile in. If there is a warlord, then they don't and leave the poor scout to his fate.
We've seen a similar idea with doombats getting eaten by dragons.

Phil.

[SteveMB]

I took this to be that the *single* scout runs off down the tunnel until it bumps into an enemy stack and auto-engages. If the stack has no warlord, then the other gobwins behind pile in. If there is a warlord, then they don't and leave the poor scout to his fate.
We've seen a similar idea with doombats getting eaten by dragons.
Specialty scout units may be an excption to the autoengage rule -- the Marbit scout stack hit by Sizemore's golems and the bat scout that found the dwagons both seem to be running rather than actively engaging the enemy.

[ReccaSquirrel]

Jack totally told us what is going to happen.

"A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool from his friends."

I've been convinced, since they arrived, that the archons are going to be used somehow to help Parson win.

[Querzis]

Jack totally told us what is going to happen.

"A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool from his friends."

I've been convinced, since they arrived, that the archons are going to be used somehow to help Parson win.

Since hes right next to Stanley, his enemy, when he say that and since the wise man is most likely him, I see something totally different happening.

[ReccaSquirrel]

If I were in Parson's position, I would try and capture Webinar and Dora. Parson is in desperate need of warlords at the moment, and taking two of them, even if they cannot immediately be used against their former employer (Loyalty spells are one reason. Maybe Parson could make his very own Room 101; can Thinkamancers read minds?) is a great boon for him; he will very likely be gaining whatever casters that the coalition brought (likely two Healomancers at the least).

Anyhoo, who else thinks that Jack did snap out of it, and he's now just playing the fool?

I think he's better off killing them personally. He has no way to convince them to work for him (except for maybe Uncroaked). And if he picks off enemy warlords one or two at a time, he'll break moral. The other warlords might see it as Ansom sacrificing the people in their alliance in order to help Ansom gain his manifest destiny. But that's probably not what will happen at all.

What we ARE seeing however, is a very focused attack strategy to take out as many Marbits and unboosted forces as possible with as little losses as possible. Death of a warlord will reduce enemy moral. But the destruction of marbits means that the tunnels become a major advantage to Parson. He will be able to pull back even more forces to the walls if it doesn't force the enemy into the tunnels in the first place.

Actually, that said. . . I expect to see a 300 reference soon.

[MythicFox]

So, "snap out" means " return to sanity?

The entire phrase 'snap out of it' means 'return to sanity,' yes.

[HOLEkevin]

LOL, that's the way I play games. Come up with a hundred plans, and go with the one that works. Of course that means that even if you win, you've got a 99% failure rate, which is not spectacular.

[datalaughing]

I think there must be some sort of special rules for using your troops in your own city. Or maybe even a special ability for Gobwins in tunnels. The city can't be one hex, because then Webinar's leadership would apply to all the stacks the same as GW's warlords would. Maybe it has something to do with tunnel fighting rules seeing as how the hex system can't work the same in tunnels. You could be in the same hex as an enemy but with a wall seperating you and never know they were there.

I think that Jack is sane, maybe has always been, and is playing the GW crew. His line about friends and enemies makes me think that maybe he's going to turn on the tool, especially if he knows Jillian (one of his oldest friends) is waiting at the pass. He could make the ambush party appear to be 5 bats or something and Stanley would make a reckless attack and maybe get himself croaked, which would be a very bad thing for Parson.

Oh, I do hope we get a tunnel colapse and a dead major character next strip. I'm as tired of that guy as Jillian is.

[dr pepper]

Ooh, Webinar is ticked!

[Aquillion]

Am I the only one who realizes how badly Parson just booped himself? He broke the Unspoken Plan Guarantee (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnspokenPlanGuarantee) by saying what he's going to do to Webinar!

[fendrin]

Hmm.. the fool seems less insane now, and more... resigned.

"A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountaintop."
Almost sounds as if he were talking about Sizemore and Parson, but how would he know that Sizemore was in the tunnels?

"A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool does from his friends."
You know, I think it's too late. Look at Stanley's face. Look at dwagon faces. Firm resolve, grimacing, as if bearing down on something ugly, but determined to succeed.

Stanley is attacking someone. Whether it be the Transylvito forces (likely), Charlie's Archons (unlikely), or the coalition column (possible) stil remains to be seen.

[CaptC]

Same thing happened with the dwagon fortress. Keep the main plan hidden until you need to show how it gets booped.

But this time, Parson is going to adapt the plan and win. He's now a complete perfect warlord, ya know.

[Suicide Junkie]

Specialty scout units may be an excption to the autoengage rule -- the Marbit scout stack hit by Sizemore's golems and the bat scout that found the dwagons both seem to be running rather than actively engaging the enemy.There is no need for an exception to that here;
- Gobwin knob is all one hex since it requires zero move to shift forces around between the tunnels, wall and garrison.
- There are warlords in the same hex, although not the same stack.
- The lead gobwin is not retreating, but attacking via the strategy of "lure into traps" :).

Note: The Gobwins are maneuvering around inside the garrison zone which, being a subset of a single hex, is all the same hex. So it costs no movement to wander around down there; they can move travel as far as they need to, provided they remain inside the city.

A strategy of "flee" is perfectly legitimate; bat*21 was using it to gain a little more time to report on the enemy, even though it had no chance of escaping.
The marbit scout stack that got NWOBHMed by the golems was following the same strategy as the gobwins are about to do as well; fall back and set off traps. The difference being that Sizemore makes far better traps than marbit scouts do, and Parson is making the risk lower by sending just a single scout and having lots of backup.

PS:
The possibility that a warlord leader is required OR having a special scout ability is still viable, but I would like to apply occam's razor here, and say it is just another combat strategy. (A strategy that results in you dealing very little damage to the enemy in order to gain 'time'. Normally a commodity of little value since move points are the important thing strategically, but if you've got non-move tasks to accomplish while under attack, 'time' can be critical.)

[docstrange]

I think there's a Sane Jack trapped in Crazy Jack. It's a VERY interesting literary device to confine him to speaking in quotations. That allows Sane Jack a limited ability to answer Parson's questions, but he's ignored by Stanley who thinks it's just ranting.

Sane Jack is, of course, at the "bottom of the well" - the "well" being his own mind.

[SteveMB]

- There are warlords in the same hex, although not the same stack.

The autoengage rule works by stacks:


Stacks without a leader are forced to autoattack when in contact with units from non-allied capitals


A strategy of "flee" is perfectly legitimate

If fleeing counts as an engagement strategy, the autoattack rule is pretty much meaningless.

[Welf]

I believe Jack is leading the Tool into the trap. Maybe the break of the spell did not only ruin his sanity but also canceled the effect of the loyalty, or reduced the value of this stat.

[Lamech]

I have a solution to those quotes: Stanley is the fool, and Parson is the wise man. The mountain top was the table, the "bottom of a well" is the lack of table. The "friends" are all of Stanley's units, and enemies should be obvious. (In case they aren't: the people trying to kill Stanley.)
-"A wise man can see more from a bottom of a well, than a fool can from a mountain top."
Parson understands more about the coalition now, then Stanley did when he had the table.
-"A wise man gets more use from his enemies, than a fool from his friends."
Parson is manipulating the coalition, (and uncroaking their units), while Stanley is getting nothing from his extremely powerful friends because he left them.

[Cinqueda]

I've been reading this comic for a long time, and this is the first time I've posted. :) This is what I think the Fool's statements mean.

"A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountaintop."

Possible translation: I'm crazy, but even though I'm crazy I understand.

"A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool does from his friends."

Possible translation: Stanley isn't going to be of much help. (Notice the Fool is looking at Stanley with what appears to be an expression of worry or concern).

To break it down further... The Fool is the Wise Man. The well is his madness. The "Fool" in his statement isn't anyone in particular, and the Mountaintop is sanity.

The second statement is simply cynicism, to some degree. Your allies aren't necessarily good friends, or all that helpful.

[Wrecan]

Here's my translation of Jack's statements:

Parson: Jack... Snipe? This is Lord Hamster, your Chief Warlord. I'm calling to help you, Jack.

Jack: "O, tempt not a desperate man... nuncle!"
Jack, translated: I don't believe you can help me.

Parson: Jack? Can you understand at all?
Jack: "A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountaintop."
Jack, translated: I am impaired, but I still understand more than a fool does. (In context the "fool" could be either Stanley or Parson, but it probably Stanley. From Parson's reaction, however, Parson isn't sure if he's just been insulted.)

Parson: Um, okay. Guess we should wrap this up. If you do snap out of it, try and convince the Tool to come back to the city, okay Jack? Okay? Jack?
Jack: But a wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool from his friends.
Jack, translated: Are you sure you want him back? He just gets in the way because he's useless. (People have been assuming the wise man in this sentence is Jack, leading people to believe Jack is being disloyal. I disagree. I think the wise man in this case is Parson. So does Parson, as indicated by his reaction:)

Parson: I hear ya. Maggie, break the connection.

Will Jack be able to snap out of it? Probably when Jamie runs out of proverbs and quotations to use! Will Jack try to get Stanley to turn around? I think he will. Will he succeed? I don't know.

[Earendill]

"A wise man......"

Stanley is still Jack's Boss. By the rules of the game, Jack can't harm him directly or indirectly. Unless, of course, he is a fool (as in mad).

My theory - Jack actually snapped out of it. And he realised where he is and what he does. He maybe dislikes Stanley (for various possible reasons) yet he knows he will have to obey to his orders and do all it takes to protect him. But he doesn't want to.

So he keeps the "fool" act a little longer - his riddle answers do convey some messages - he plans to stay "fool" as long as he can. This way Stanley won't give him orders and his "enemies" (Transylvito in this case) will help him more then what his "friends" (Parson or Stanley) can by, maybe, defeating stanley and freeing him

[Moechi_Vill]

Are they shouting out the name of one of my (homeland's) neighbor country's international bargain-price self-assembled furniture manufacturer and retailer giant?

That's...
that would be
special.

[Bilgore]

And of course, the unsound effect IKEA of the gobwins' charge is "Ingvar Kamprad Elmtaryd Agunnaryd", the Swedish home furnishings retailer.

Would that be the sound of the tables turning, or a sign that Ansom will have to lie in the bed that he made? (dodges pun police)

[ChowGuy]

There is no need for an exception to that here;
- Gobwin knob is all one hex since it requires zero move to shift forces around between the tunnels, wall and garrison.
- There are warlords in the same hex, although not the same stack.
- The lead gobwin is not retreating, but attacking via the strategy of "lure into traps" :).

of they city,
It's simpler then that.

As pointed out in Klog 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html), as Chief Warlord Parson's leadership bonus extends to all units "of [his] capital." If we interpret that to mean "within the city itself," and given that Klog 11 states that for combat purposes the tunnels are an intrinsic part of the city, it's not unreasonable to suggest that all GK units in the tunnels no matter how they are divided into stacks are assumed to be "led" by Parson and therefore eligible to engage or not on his orders This however does not apply to Webinar or Ansom, as they are not operating within their ow city. It's a powerful advantage to city defense, but defensive advantages are not at all uncommon in such games, otherwise sieges become trivial.

[Moechi_Vill]

Yes... what with knocking down walls in one turn being possible with enough conventional non-supra siege.
*sigh* rpg's really make such rushes against most sort of defenses necessary too often (not just in fantasy). Nothing like sitting outside a wall or camping an ac defended site with magic-capable people hoarded up inside.

[Requiem_Jeer]

of they city,
It's simpler then that.

As pointed out in Klog 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html), as Chief Warlord Parson's leadership bonus extends to all units "of [his] capital." If we interpret that to mean "within the city itself," and given that Klog 11 states that for combat purposes the tunnels are an intrinsic part of the city, it's not unreasonable to suggest that all GK units in the tunnels no matter how they are divided into stacks are assumed to be "led" by Parson and therefore eligible to engage or not on his orders This however does not apply to Webinar or Ansom, as they are not operating within their ow city. It's a powerful advantage to city defense, but defensive advantages are not at all uncommon in such games, otherwise sieges become trivial.

Bingo! I'm positive they count as led because Parson is leading them, thus the autoattack rule is meaningless.

[Evil DM Mark3]

IKEA!!!
hehehe

[Zolem]

Maybe I oversee something, but aren't these gobwins stacks without a warlord? Shouldn't such stacks autoattack? I havn't read a exception for scouts.

Gobwin warlords in the scout stacks, duh.

[CaptC]

No evidence for a gobwin warlord, is there? Just gobwin infantry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html)

[Miklus]

I personally get the felling that Jack is now quite sane. but don't want Stanly to know that. Therefore, he speaks in riddles. Jack might be planning revenge on Stanley. He has plenty of reasons to hate him.

"A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountaintop."
I think Jack is saying that he does indeed understand. That he, Jack, can understand better despite his "condition" than Parson can from his mountaintop.

"A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool does from his friends."
My initial idea was that Jack get more use out of Stanley then Stanley gets out of Jack. That is, that Jack is now using Stanley. But maybe the wise man is Parson, as some suggested. The fool is surely Stanley.

...IKEAAAAAA! :smallbiggrin:

[Miklus]

Two more things...

transsylvito has a lot of warlords, but only a few bats as cannonfodder. Do not underestimate Stanley in a fight. He may be an idiot, but he climbed up through the military ranks. He knows combat. He has dwagons and the top three hobgoblins. He has the Arkenhammer. He is deadly.

And the others thing...I just noticed one of the gobwins is armed with a meathammer...? LOL.

[Zolem]

No evidence for a gobwin warlord, is there? Just gobwin infantry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html)

He asks the Gobwins to lend a few warlords offscreeen so their scouts don't get booped.

[CaptC]

Completely unnecessary.

First, single gobwin scouts are scouts and designed to die. No initiative needed to begin with.

Second, a game mechanic to give them initiative already exists. There are several warlords and casters in Gobwin Knob, that can arguably lend initiative to units in their hex.

Third, it would be very unfair to list the contents of the army (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html) and then "change it offscreen". I have the same objections to new units being popped without it being explicitly mentioned in the story. I find any theory about any units not found in Klog #7 to be very implausible.

[Prince_Rohan]

Parson rocks, and I believe soon...so will Jack.

"Know yourself and know your enemy", Ansom doens't know either.

[headhoncho]

To me it seems very clear that the Fool is, well, the fool mentioned in his statements. Parson, the Chief Warlord, the Protagonist, the smartest and most clever guy we've seen, is the wise man.

"A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountaintop."

Translation: You came into this world knowing nothing, yet you're still rocking. I'm now sane and atop a dwagon and I have no clue what's going on (perhaps because I was previously insane).

"A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool does from his friends."

Translation: You're negotiating well with Charlie and playing Ansom like a fiddle, and even though you've asked me to prevail upon the Tool (on the same side, even if not quite a "friend"), there's just no chance of that happening.

[ReccaSquirrel]

I just want to point out for those that think Parson is a fool, there is something very Jack related that hasn't been said by him yet.

"The fool doth think he wise, the wiseman know himself to be a fool."

Parson after breaking his connection states: "We try things. Occasionally they even work."

Parson recognizes his limitations and thus is truly wise, not a fool.

[starburst98]

i take "must engage" as "can not leave hex" so a bat can fly around in a circle on one hex forever being chased by a slow dwagon and it would count as engaging. so the scout has engaged the enemy but he can move anywhere in the hex. Or, the reson they auto engage is because no one is there to give instructions, so they just fight since that is they only thing they can do. but since they are in gobwin knob they could all count as being led by parson who gave them instructions; see a warlord, run away; see infantry, attack.

[Eraniverse]

I agree, Jack refers to himself as fool in both statements.

The first expresses bewilderment. The second expresses doubt at Stanley's pliability.

The fool was gone before any real manipulation of enemies by Parson. Thus he's not referring to any prowess on Parson's part unless it is in the oracular fool archetype capacity. Which I'm starting to doubt he's still tapped into as his pronouncements become increasingly clear and topical.

[Xuincherguixe]

I'd like to think that the statements mean absolutely nothing, and that Jack is just nuts. But that kind of thing hardly ever happens. On the other hand, with Erfworld as it is, it could be utterly meaningless. (I hope so!)

[Sharoth]

New comic is up! Methinkiths that the Foolmancer is up to something in his twisted and shattered little mind.

[Oracle_Hunter]

What, two pages and nobody has adapted the Ikea Gobwin into an avatar? Chop chop people! :smalltongue:

[DCR]

Apparently there's an archon applying some very high-tech methods of espionage on Lord Hampster. Security breach!

I'm glad someone's paying attention, because I completely missed that!
Awesome sauce! Oh, and while Gobwin Knob battle is great stuff, I think I wanna see what Stanley and Jack do and or how they do vs Vin and Co.

[SteveMB]

Looks like Webinar and his girlfriend survived. They sure look angry...

Downright burned up, in fact.

(I'll be here all week; please remember to tip your waitress....)

[Goshen]

"A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool does from his friends."

Possible translation: Stanley isn't going to be of much help. (Notice the Fool is looking at Stanley with what appears to be an expression of worry or concern).


I agree. I also think Stanley would wreck any chances Parson would have of winning by taking over and micro-managing again.

[Vesilasi]

What, two pages and nobody has adapted the Ikea Gobwin into an avatar? Chop chop people!

With the sword:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d13/vesilasi/ikea1.jpg

With the battle cry:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d13/vesilasi/ikea2.jpg

For anyone who wants them.

Edit: Larger pic of without IKEA
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d13/vesilasi/ikea3.jpg

[CaptC]

Just noticed: Maggie seems nonplussed by Jack's answers, indicating that he doesn't always talk in verse or seem so obtuse. It would have been a perfect opportunity for her to just say, "Don't worry, warlord. He always talks that way."

Which indicates to me that Jack didn't just miraculously get over the damage from breaking the link. But the fact that Jack has changed his speaking style seems a powerful indicator that he is getting better.

I find it simpler to believe that Jack is "Just Another Named Unit (tm)". He is getting over the already-explained damage. He's not plotting revenge or other new plot twists. He isn't pretending to be insane, he was actually driven insane. Other than that, his motivations are bound by duty as is every other unit in Stanley's employ. But there's still room for personal initiative on his part: Stanley is going to order Jack to do one thing, while Parson has (implicitly) ordered Jack to do another. What will Jack do?

[Tundar]

IKEA is a great battlecry!!

Very interesting comic.

[Chadwick]

Quoting parson: We try things, occasionally they even work.


Ah, a statement that would often works for me!

[ReccaSquirrel]

Which indicates to me that Jack didn't just miraculously get over the damage from breaking the link. But the fact that Jack has changed his speaking style seems a powerful indicator that he is getting better.
Note: Jack is sitting right next to Stanley. If he is back to normal, he isn't going to say, "Sure, I'll lure Stanley right to you"

[PresidentEnder]

So... how about Jack was upset by Jillian's rebuffs to his advances. So, when Wanda's predictamancy saw Stanley nearby, Jack dropped the veil and illusion-ed up a reason to attack FAQ, even if it wasn't Stanley's original target. This whole thing is Jack's revenge on Jill (ian).

[selgnij]

On the whole why hasn't auto-engage forced a fight and so how can the forces be led anywhere bit.

The way I figure Erfworld works is that you need Move to change hexes, but can move around inside your hex to your heart's content. So units can move around GK and so can run from battle since they are just running around a single hex.

I'm assuming a couple of limitations on this though:

1) Enemy units at least, cannot change zones off turn. No strong proof either way to show if this extends to friendly units.

2) This would just be a total guess, but I doubt units can change zones even on their turn while engaged. (Unless warlord led)

[Vorkuta]

My take:

"A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountaintop."

The Fool is talking about Parson. He understands the situation, dispite being new and without his "table" resources than the fool, Stanley does. Stanley is currently riding high with a bunch of dragons.

"A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool does from his friends."

Again, the wise man is Parson and the fool is Stanley. Stanley has allies but doesn't manage them well. Parson is a great manager of what little he has, including Stanley's stack (I anticipate), which will be a factor in future strips.

[Sky_Schemer]

There is no need for an exception to (the autoattack rule) here;
- Gobwin knob is all one hex since it requires zero move to shift forces around between the tunnels, wall and garrison.
- There are warlords in the same hex, although not the same stack.
- The lead gobwin is not retreating, but attacking via the strategy of "lure into traps" :).

I think SteveMB is right. What you describe here is way too complicated compared to the very simple explanation that scouts are exceptions to the auto-attack rule.

Think about it. They're scouts. What would be the point of having auto-attack apply to them? That would defeat the whole purpose of scouting.

[CaptC]

Note: Jack is sitting right next to Stanley. If he is back to normal, he isn't going to say, "Sure, I'll lure Stanley right to you"

Stanley is not reacting to Jack at all. I took that to mean Stanley couldn't hear the thinkagram directed to Jack, but your point could be correct. It could be that Stanley just thinks Jack is raving and ignoring him. (The author's could have easily handled that, with Stanley just saying something like, "You are driving me NUTS with that babble.")

So I think Parson and Jack just talked to each other without Stanley hearing anything. *shrug*. YMMV. Either way, it doesn't really change anything. Maggie's reaction is the more important - she presumably knows how Jack normally conversed, and she doesn't think it was the way he is conversing now.

[teratorn]

Nice touch of the archon sending thinkagrams to Charlie about what Parson is doing.

I am with Steve and a few other forumers on this, the scout is ahead of the main stack, giving its info to the stack or to Sizemore, so that the stacks are protected and not in contact with the enemy.

I don't expect it to engage, look how he is hiding in the 5th panel. It makes sense, to spy you need stealth, being forced to engage would break that. I also expect scouts to be crap in combat.

Parson says, "if they pursue, lead them" so they do run from engagements and can work to guide enemies into traps, either by leading them to gobwin troops, or to Sizemore, or to a tunel which will collapse (and then the scout also dies, but hey Parson is ruthless now).

Parson managed to somehow replicate the donut of doom, although this time retreating is not an option. Good intel is more of an issue now (this would have been easy with the viewing table) and use of scouts is a clever option, probably quite unusual in Erfworld (a bit like using casters in the battle front).

:smalleek: Dora lost her mount? I guess she could be the one behind Webinar but it's not clear that even that one is mounted.

[dr pepper]

I tried, but parts kept falling off.

[Vince3]

Hopefully Jack can now make things interesting in the Tool/Transylvito and Jillian fight.

[CaptC]

I think SteveMB is right. What you describe here is way too complicated compared to the very simple explanation that scouts are exceptions to the auto-attack rule.

Think about it. They're scouts. What would be the point of having auto-attack apply to them? That would defeat the whole purpose of scouting.

Sometimes game systems have specialized scout units. It's moot in this case, we see no scout units on the Gobwin Knob order of battle, we just see gobwin infantry. Perhaps gobwin scouts wouldn't be called out separately. But then again, that's moot, too.

In fog of war games, I often send a lone infantryman out to see what is going on, rather than build specialized and expensive scouts. The infantryman has autoengage rules and he rushes superior enemy forces all the time. He dies stupidly - but I get the information I need to plan what to do with the rest of my forces. "Newly Ruthless Parson (tm)" would likely spend ALL of his (mostly level 1) gobwins just to get Sizemore to the right place.

So: Scouts with auto-engage rules are just fine, if they are cheap enough. Gobwins look to be VERY cheap. This dead horse doesn't need any more beating - nobody, especially Parson, is interested in saving gobwin scouts. Their PURPOSE is to die horribly while finding out where the enemy is.

[SteveMB]

Stanley is not reacting to Jack at all. I took that to mean Stanley couldn't hear the thinkagram directed to Jack, but your point could be correct. It could be that Stanley just thinks Jack is raving and ignoring him. (The author's could have easily handled that, with Stanley just saying something like, "You are driving me NUTS with that babble.")

Even without a comment from Stanley, I think it's clear that he's developed the habit of ignoring Jack, in order to protect his own sanity. :smallsmile:

However, if Jack started to talk normally, Stanley might notice. Thus, it's possible that he has at least somewhat recovered, and speaks in riddles to hide that fact. Or he could still be deranged.

EDIT: Another hint that Stanley is ignoring Jack -- the dwagons look normal (i.e. he didn't even bother trying to get Jack to veil them when the turn began).

[ReccaSquirrel]

Nice touch of the archon sending thinkagrams to Charlie about what Parson is doing.
Where the *blooop* are you getting this from? Panel or it didn't happen.

[fendrin]

I think SteveMB is right. What you describe here is way too complicated compared to the very simple explanation that scouts are exceptions to the auto-attack rule.

Think about it. They're scouts. What would be the point of having auto-attack apply to them? That would defeat the whole purpose of scouting.

The bats are scouts, yet they were forced to engage the dwagons when encountering the dwagon ring.

So what has changed?
scouts: no change
led by warlord: possible change, if the entire hex count's as led and not just the warlord's stack
location: definite change

Let's look at #3, as we know that the location has changed.
We know that each zone has it's own rules of engagement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html).
We don't know what the tunnel's RoE are, but it could play a role.

More likely...

From the same klog, we know that within the city units can redeploy without expending move. Thus the scouts could be 'redeploying' from solo to a stack (or to the garrison, or the walls).

[Lamech]

Hey wait a tick...
"See if Sizemore is ready for the gobwins yet." So Sizemore has been prepping something nasty, a tee hee hee... Does this mean Parson has an unspoken plan guarantee?

[Vossik]

of they city,
It's simpler then that.

As pointed out in Klog 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html), as Chief Warlord Parson's leadership bonus extends to all units "of [his] capital." If we interpret that to mean "within the city itself," and given that Klog 11 states that for combat purposes the tunnels are an intrinsic part of the city, it's not unreasonable to suggest that all GK units in the tunnels no matter how they are divided into stacks are assumed to be "led" by Parson and therefore eligible to engage or not on his orders This however does not apply to Webinar or Ansom, as they are not operating within their ow city. It's a powerful advantage to city defense, but defensive advantages are not at all uncommon in such games, otherwise sieges become trivial.

Quoted For Truth people need to read this. >.> Also it is stated that in defense of a city units can be moved instantly but attackers cannot. It is not a single hex, however for movement purposes it can be treated as one by Parson.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html

[fendrin]

Where the *blooop* are you getting this from? Panel or it didn't happen.

Panel 3 of today's strip shows an Archon peering into the tower. While we have no evidence of a thinkagram going on, the hand positions are such that it is possible.

To me though, it looks as if she is simply shielding her eyes from ambient light so that she can see through the glass better.

[ericgrau]

He's a foolmancer, I'd guess that they speak in riddles which will make it interesting to see how he tries to convince Stanley to come home.

What would be even better is if we get to see how great of a foolmancer Jack really is by him using his foolmancy to trick Stanley into going home...

Nah, it's an obvious reference to the fool in Shakespeare's King Lear.


Turned out the fool was the wisest of them all, if you just paid attention, and most people around him were fools. I think you gotta take Stanley away to get him to "snap out of it", or accept that he is already sane and find a way to work with it.

The difference is that this fool seems to be saying irrelevant (?) sayings when King Lear's fool's sayings were relevant if you looked into them. So only time will tell whether the comic author is going that deep into this fool or not.

And now I've sparked speculation of what the fool(amancer)'s sayings mean in regard to Parson.

[Sky_Schemer]

The bats are scouts, yet they were forced to engage the dwagons when encountering the dwagon ring.

I see it more that the dwagons engaged the bats, not that the bats were forced to attack. If we follow from the "scouts are special" rule, a lot of this just makes sense intuitively. Far more so than the assuptions about GK being a single hex, having special rules for being garrison, etc., all of which require complicated explanations about how leadership bonuses and led stacks work.

[fendrin]

I see it more that the dwagons engaged the bats, not that the bats were forced to attack.
Then what stops the heavies from engaging the gobwin scouts? In both cases you have a scout going up against a non-scout.

Remember too, Parson's orders are formed without knowing precisely how his enemies' stacks are composed, so enemy warlords can not be a factor in how it's supposed to work.


If we follow from the "scouts are special" rule, a lot of this just makes sense intuitively. Far more so than the assuptions about GK being a single hex, having special rules for being garrison, etc., all of which require complicated explanations about how leadership bonuses and led stacks work.
Yes, things often work out easier when you start with a faulty premise. :smallwink:

[Kasavin]

Anyone else notice how big a boop Weibnar is commiting? He sees a scout fleeing, and he amasses his forces to pursue it. Despite just surviving first hand the kind of diabolical traps are in the tunnels. He has to realize there's a good chance he's being lead into another trap, or he's an idiot, which I didn't think he was.

As for his survival odds, I'd say good. If nothing else, capturing him and his girl gives Parson a bargaining chip and a source of intelligence now that his lookamancer is croacked.

[Gamebird]

Webinar has been portrayed as the sort of guy who would get angry and then charge ahead after what had made him angry. (it's a common Jetstone failing, apparently) It's also important that Webinar seemed to think of the tunnel fighting, without other support, as a possible suicide. That would tend to make him think less about consequences.

The way I read the scout thing is flavor text, just like if someone described their parry/thrust/riposte in great detail in D&D. "Yeah, yeah, yeah, so you hit. Now roll damage..." The scout's greater intelligence-gathering capacity is the in-world demonstration of the mechanic of Parson's warlord leadership bonus.

I also figure that calling a unit a "scout" just means it's alone and has been tasked primarily with gathering information instead of holding territory or attacking foes.

[SteveMB]

I also figure that calling a unit a "scout" just means it's alone and has been tasked primarily with gathering information instead of holding territory or attacking foes.

"When scouting units send back intel, that's Natural Thinkamancy." Apparently, units that have inherent scout functions (as opposed to ordinary units that are sent on scout missions) have special communication abilities (like Vinny's bats sending him a bat's-eye view).

The idea that scouts don't follow the usual auto-engage rules is a speculation on my part -- it seems to fit a few things in the comic, but isn't actual established fact. If it's correct, then it would refer to actual inherent-scout-function units -- ordinary infantry sent out in front of the main force would still auto-engage if it bumped into anything.

[Draz74]

LOL, that's the way I play games. Come up with a hundred plans, and go with the one that works. Of course that means that even if you win, you've got a 99% failure rate, which is not spectacular.

Ask Edison how he invented the light bulb sometime.

Or any good photographer how they get so many good pictures.

[CaptC]

Anyone else notice how big a boop Weibnar is commiting? He sees a scout fleeing, and he amasses his forces to pursue it. Despite just surviving first hand the kind of diabolical traps are in the tunnels. He has to realize there's a good chance he's being lead into another trap, or he's an idiot, which I didn't think he was.

"Angry and aggressive" is not automatically equal to "blinded by rage and stupid." Webinar knows he has a HUGE numerical advantage, and he wants to be Grant instead of McClellan. Pursuing the enemy is to his advantage, as it keeps his forces engaged to wear down his enemy.

The Russians defeated the Germans in WWII not because they were brilliantly led in any particular battle. They just never stopped fighting battles, and could afford to trade 20-1 (and often did.) Eventually there weren't enough Germans in front of them and the Russians rolled forward.

Webinar most likely knows he's gonna take casualties to traps. But he's (ruthlessly) accepting those casualties so he can keep killing his enemies.

[Emo Samurai]

I think the Unspoken Plan Guarantee doesn't count if it's spoken of as the plan is coming together. For reference, watch "Speed Racer."

[headhoncho]

Speaking of ruthless, I was musing about how Parson could kill Webinar and Dora, uncroak them, and then send them to attack the RCC HQ hex.

Wonder how Ansom's allies would react to THAT?

[Clamps]

I think the auto-attack rule is in play entirely. The city's one Hex, and you can move in it freely, but the infantry would be unable to leave the hex unless the fight was won (or leave Webinar still there at the end of the turn?)

[CaptC]

Speaking of ruthless, I was musing about how Parson could kill Webinar and Dora, uncroak them, and then send them to attack the RCC HQ hex.

Wonder how Ansom's allies would react to THAT?

With a quick re-croaking?

We have no evidence that supposes Webinar or Dora wouldn't be immediately identifiable as enemy units if uncroaked. I don't think they could go in as assassination units.

If Parson supports Dora and Webinar with troops, such that he comes out behind his fortification, he surrenders his advantages and will almost certainly be defeated in the open field.

If he kills and uncroaks Webinar, he would best be used as another Warlord on the walls. (I don't think Dora is a warlord, she's just a named grunt so far as I can tell, and thus probably isn't worth uncroaking.)

[headhoncho]

With a quick re-croaking?
We have no evidence that supposes Webinar or Dora wouldn't be immediately identifiable as enemy units if uncroaked. I don't think they could go in as assassination units.
If Parson supports Dora and Webinar with troops, such that he comes out behind his fortification, he surrenders his advantages and will almost certainly be defeated in the open field.
If he kills and uncroaks Webinar, he would best be used as another Warlord on the walls. (I don't think Dora is a warlord, she's just a named grunt so far as I can tell, and thus probably isn't worth uncroaking.)

No no, not as assassins, as a message to the RCC that Ansom's entire force in the tunnels has been WIPED OUT.

I suspect it'd be more dramatic flavor than strategic masterstroke.

[CaptC]

It would be a unique way to send a message, indeed. As long as Wanda isn't busy (she will be) and uncroaking doesn't take very long. Wanda had overnight to work on Jaclyn.

[Fafnir13]

Just gotta say that was one of the best war cries I've ever read.

[teratorn]

Is this the first strip where we see Parson's nifty belt?


Then what stops the heavies from engaging the gobwin scouts? In both cases you have a scout going up against a non-scout.

In this strip the gobwin is sort of hiding when looking at the marbits in panel 7. Webinar is engaging the scout. The most important thing is that scouts can flee the fight, and work as bait. Parson clearly hints at that when he says "lead them"

EDIT: Oh, and the "track them" doesn't make sense if they are forced to attack. They can follow other units, at least as long as they are not seen.

Bats on the other hand should be ok when scouting ground troops, even when seen, as long as they avoid archers.

[Grubsnik]

Hmm, see a lot of confusion about how some of the erf-mechanics seem to function. So i'll try and clear things up a bit. It's speculation, just like everything else in this thread, but most should be simple deductions based on prior comics.

Warlords
Having a warlord with a stack allows for 2 things:
1. Choosing not to engage (even though the other side might still fight back).
2. Selectively targetting units.

Gobwin knob consists of multiple hexes.
Quite a lot of them in fact. Profs:
1. Ansoms strategy consists of attacking GK from all sides and wait for a breach somewhere in the walls, if it was just 1 hex, this wouldn't make any sense.
2. Parson has noted that defending units do not expend movement points while within moving around inside the city zones. This comment would be kind of a no-brainer if the city only consisted of 1 hex.
3. If GK was only 1 hex, then Sizemore and Webinar would already have fought to the death, since Webinar is currently in the tunnels part of the city.

Fighting and retreating
Combat doesn't get resolved instantly, as most people seem to assume. The first trick Parson pulls in Erfworld is retreating his attacking dwagons before the fights are finished(but after they croak all the siege), proving that if it is your turn, you can choose to stop fighting/retreat when you don't feel like continuing the fight. The downside to this, is that your side automagically counts as the losing side, meaning you don't get any xp for your warlords.

Scouts and auto-attacking.(pure speculation)
In most strategy games, scouts are the exception to the "always engage" rule. This does not mean that they can't engage, or that enemy units won't engage them back, if they see them scouting.

Retreating and pursuing(again, speculation)
Retreating from combat is most likely a 2 step process.
1. Units fleeing have a chance to suffer an "attack of opportunity" from the troops they are fleeing from, relative stack speed will most likely be a factor in this.
2. The victorious stack gets the option to attempt pursuit, again, succes in this is most likely based on the involved stacks relative movement.
For both of these rolls, both absolute and remaining move might be a factor.

Prior situations
Why didn't the doombats just flee if the gobwin scout can?
1. Didn't seem like Vinnie was actually trying to keep it alive.
2. Even the slow Dwagons are reasonably within the 50 move range, which is most likely more than the doombat has. They might have tried to run, but it just didn't make it.
Why wasn't there any pursuers when Parson did his retreat-trick with the dwagons then?
The coalition didn't have any flying units in those hexes.

The current situation
Since the tunnels are within the city zone, Parson can stage strike teams pretty much as he wishes. He is hitting the marbits as hard as he can, since the harder he hits them, the less casualties and losses he will take. The reason he doesn't just use Sizemore exclusively is that he and his golems only have a finite amount of hitpoints, and he wants to save them for when it counts (against heavies and warlords). Normally, the bait and switch maneuver with the scout, would have the scout running out of movement pretty fast, but since this is within the city limits... well.. lets just say it gets a little different.

Thinkamancy backlash
Well, Jack might have restored his sense of self, but not be able to speak normally... After all Wanda had issues speaking after recovering from Jillians backlash.

Food for thought
1. Does Parson gain xp for all combat done in the city zones, or only for combat with stacks he personally leads?
2. We pretty much know how the rest of the turn will play itself out for the tunnels. Any ideas on how he will play it topside with his new airforce?

Well, just my spammage for the night. If it's all gabled and gibberish, then I was probably more tired than I thought :smallbiggrin:

[Suicide Junkie]

The autoengage rule works by stacks:

Originally Posted by Parson, Klog 4
Stacks without a leader are forced to autoattack when in contact with units from non-allied capitals
If fleeing counts as an engagement strategy, the autoattack rule is pretty much meaningless."Stacks without a leader", does not necessarily mean the leader must be in the stack, although it does sound quite reasonable.

As far as the autoattack rule, that sounds to me like one of the generic almost-accurate "rules" we've seen so far.
If flee was allowed, then in almost every situation, whomever was not fleeing would win the combat with minimal damage. In open fields, there isn't much room for traps, and there are also much smaller numbers of units in each combat. Mostly stacks of 8 or less, as we have seen.
It would certainly be a common enough situation to count as a soft "rule" I think. In the field, flee would be equivalent to suicide, minus the duty/loyalty check.

If flee is a valid engagement strategy, it would almost never be used... it would also be associated with broken morale and avoided even more strongly.

---

Still, on the other hand, it would make sense for scouts to have another special ability of either self-leadership in addition to the auto-reporting thinkamancy.
All of the units we have seen run away were scout type units.
The "in contact" clause of the rule would presumably have to imply only targetable and visible enemies, I suppose. All of the unled RCC stacks aren't charging around madly to attack after all.
Parson would then be sending the solo scouts to look around, and then the scouts would decide whether to tell their assigned infantry to close their eyes, turn around and go back up the tunnel, or to walk through the doorway, see the enemy and trigger the autoattack.

The Gobwin scout in panel 7 certainly isn't fleeing, but spying.

That original flee idea is looking more and more crazy :)

[tyckspoon]

If Parson supports Dora and Webinar with troops, such that he comes out behind his fortification, he surrenders his advantages and will almost certainly be defeated in the open field.

If he kills and uncroaks Webinar, he would best be used as another Warlord on the walls. (I don't think Dora is a warlord, she's just a named grunt so far as I can tell, and thus probably isn't worth uncroaking.)

Dora is definitely a Warlord- Charlie sends his Archons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0046.html) to escort 'Three commanders and entourage'. The group they were sent to consisted of Dora, Webinar, Jillian, Webinar's mount (same one he's riding in the tunnels), and some gwiffons. The only real candidate to be the third commander in that group is Dora. She's not a very powerful one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0056.html), but for Gobwin Knob that doesn't matter. Parson doesn't really need high-powered Warlords right now (they'd be helpful, and Webinar would be an excellent prize because of his presumably decent score)- Parson just needs Warlord-type units that he can use to better pick and control his fights. As is, he just has his casters, himself, and a couple of Uncroaked in 'advanced decay' that probably won't last many more turns.

But even beyond Dora's value as a Warlord there is no such thing as a unit that is not worth uncroaking in GK's current situation. Gobwin Knob is outnumbered 25-1 (possibly effectively worse, with Stanley running off with all the best units.) Killing an enemy reduces their count by 1. Uncroaking that enemy doubles the effect: your troop count also goes up by 1. Parson isn't in a situation where he can afford to give up that kind of swing; he'll have Wanda uncroaking anything and everything she can manage.

[Manoftyr]

Well, I'm calling it again...Parson is going to utterly own Webinar in the tunnels and his girlfriend is going to die but Webinar is going to survive...either being the only one or with a small handful of other troops.

And I'm fairly certain this is going to happen within the next five pages give or take.

I could be wrong, but I have a feeling this is going in that kind of a direction.

[Zolem]

But there's still room for personal initiative on his part: Stanley is going to order Jack to do one thing, while Parson has (implicitly) ordered Jack to do another. What will Jack do?

Whatever he thinks is best for Stanly, because as Wanda once stated she is allowed to go against orders if she thinks that another option is much better for her lord.

[Gamebird]

But even beyond Dora's value as a Warlord there is no such thing as a unit that is not worth uncroaking in GK's current situation.

Probably true, but it seems that casters only have a given amount of "juice" each turn. Wanda would be best off uncroaking the most tactically useful units. That sourmander might be a good choice, if it keeps its spit ability. I agree she should uncroak as many as possible. And it might be worthwhile to uncroak Dora and/or Webinar for their warlord abilities or for some psychological ploy against their enemies.

[Wadoka]

I think there must be some sort of special rules for using your troops in your own city. Or maybe even a special ability for Gobwins in tunnels. The city can't be one hex, because then Webinar's leadership would apply to all the stacks...

Shifting to a basic D&D style... moving from outdoors to indoors (houses, castles, tunnels, caves) you always shift from hexes to, say, the everlasting 10'x10' grid.

I'm thinking the same possibly applies here.

[DigoDragon]

Panel 3 of today's strip shows an Archon peering into the tower. While we have no evidence of a thinkagram going on, the hand positions are such that it is possible.

Not surprising since Parson asked Charlie to sit back and watch him work his magic. :smallsmile: If I were Charlie I'd be breaking out the popcorn.

[tribble]

so the tunnels are just going to be a gauntlet. I kind of hoped for something more original from parson. the dwagon gambit, amazing, but just utilizing the traps? not impressed so far.

[Ganurath]

so the tunnels are just going to be a gauntlet. I kind of hoped for something more original from parson. the dwagon gambit, amazing, but just utilizing the traps? not impressed so far.You do realize, of course, that this means that there's even more that we're missing that will totally thrash Ansom.

[Cadrys]

I note Jack's face is much more 'normal' in this strip than the previous one. I think that's an indication hearing his name *did* help.

[SteveMB]

Prior situations
Why didn't the doombats just flee if the gobwin scout can?
1. Didn't seem like Vinnie was actually trying to keep it alive.
2. Even the slow Dwagons are reasonably within the 50 move range, which is most likely more than the doombat has. They might have tried to run, but it just didn't make it.

Vinny's bats have 22 move (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0008.html). That's less than half the 56 Move score that separated the two groups of dwagons, which suggests that it's probably slower than pretty much any dwagon.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Ask Edison how he invented the light bulb sometime.

He bought it. (http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/Ontario/first_electric_light_bulb.htm)

The electric light bulb had already been patented twice by the time Edison got his hands on it.

[ishnar]

Gobwin knob consists of multiple hexes.
Quite a lot of them in fact. Profs:
1. Ansoms strategy consists of attacking GK from all sides and wait for a breach somewhere in the walls, if it was just 1 hex, this wouldn't make any sense.
2. Parson has noted that defending units do not expend movement points while within moving around inside the city zones. This comment would be kind of a no-brainer if the city only consisted of 1 hex.
3. If GK was only 1 hex, then Sizemore and Webinar would already have fought to the death, since Webinar is currently in the tunnels part of the city.


This is still not necessarily true.

I reference Rome: Total War a lot lately, but it actually seems to fit the mechanics of this game more each day.

Strategy is turn based. On the country map there are hexes. So each unit's move = how far it may move on the country map. But it does not apply to the tactical map when units engage. The tactical map has no hexes.

Thus. The city and it's immediate surroundings is ALL ONE HEX. When a battle is fought, movement is restricted to within the hex, but otherwise units have speed, not movement.

1. I still have to create a breach in the city walls.

2. Covered above. Movement within a hex uses no "move" Move is strictly how many countryside hexes a unit may move per turn.

3. Being one hex does not mean units are automatically adjacent on the tactical map. Both sides usually stand behind their armies. And when defending a city, behind the castle walls.

[Grubsnik]

This is still not necessarily true.

I reference Rome: Total War a lot lately, but it actually seems to fit the mechanics of this game more each day.

Strategy is turn based. On the country map there are hexes. So each unit's move = how far it may move on the country map. But it does not apply to the tactical map when units engage. The tactical map has no hexes.

Thus. The city and it's immediate surroundings is ALL ONE HEX. When a battle is fought, movement is restricted to within the hex, but otherwise units have speed, not movement.

1. I still have to create a breach in the city walls.

2. Covered above. Movement within a hex uses no "move" Move is strictly how many countryside hexes a unit may move per turn.

3. Being one hex does not mean units are automatically adjacent on the tactical map. Both sides usually stand behind their armies. And when defending a city, behind the castle walls.

Not having played Rome, Total War, I don't know this for sure, but
"If you are in a tactical battle, does your turn end before it finishes?"
My guess would be that all tactical battles are fought until a winner is found.

[Zeku]

Just saw this, and I have to go straight to work, but I wanted to clear something up.

The foolamancer has completely regained his senses, but he's smart enough to not let Stanley know this.

That explains his funny reaction in the previous comic, and both his quotes in this one.

The first is: I'm going to stay as an 'enemy,' ie, mentally screwed, but this is my choice, I'm still 'wise.'

The second is: I'll be able to accomplish more if Tool continues to think of me as an invalid. (If Tool thought Jack was completely restored, he would just start receiving new orders to cast Foolamancy)

Precisely what I'd expect from a master Foolamancer. Bravo. He'll be able to work his magic on an unsuspecting Stanley now.

[VariaVespasa]

I dont know why this is confusing to people-

Parsons bonus applies to everything in the capital, so all his units ARE commanded, so they can choose not to engage. The gobwin scout was not forced to engage not because its a scout, but because its under command. Vinnies bats are scout units also (as proven by their natural thinkamancy), but both Bat21 and all the bats used to scout the dwagon donut were unable to flee even from uncommanded dwagons because they were not under command when they encountered the enemy and thus didnt have the option to not engage. Q.E.D.

Webinar and Sizemore would not have already automatically fought to the death if GK was one hex because theyre both warlords and have the option to not engage, just as Jillian had the option to not engage the wounded dwagons and their uncwoaked warlords over the lake. Its rather unlikely that Webinar wouldnt choose to engage if given the option, of course- I'm just showing that its not inherent in them both being in the same hex as at least one poster seems to think. The real reason they havent engaged each either yet is because theyre not actually in the same hex yet per se, but they wouldnt inherently HAVE to fight even if they were, is all.

How the "track them" and "lead them towards Sizemore" thing works remains unclear. Obviously there is some form of multiple hex effect (or there couldnt be any uncommanded coalition stacks in the tunnels with Webinar down there) and movement going on, but what form we dont know yet. Titan, or Rome-TW or something else; the effect is much the same. The "lead them" thing may be as simple and limited as just standing its ground so that the unit which kills the scout has to move into its hex to do it, and thus closer to Sizemore. Or the scout may be able to actually move and lure the enemy after them, either as a function of being under active command, or being in the capital with its 0 movement cost, or something we dont understand yet.

The phrasing of Parsons command about "marbits or unled infantry" is a bit odd, seeming to condone attacking marbits regardless of leadership, even though his next line says to avoid warlords. So I'm wondering if it was just a grammar oopsie, and he meant to say "unled marbits or infantry" or if there is some significance to only apparently specifying "unled infantry". It seems likely its just a grammar error but you can never be sure in Erfworld... :)

[Grubsnik]

Parsons bonus applies to everything in the capital, so all his units ARE commanded, so they can choose not to engage.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html
The fact that Parsons bonus is applied to all units in GK does not implicitly mean they count as having a warlord in their stack.



Vinnie and Sizemore would not have already automatically fought to the death if GK was one hex because theyre both warlords and have the option to not engage, just as Jillian had the option to not engage the wounded dwagons and their uncwoaked warlords over the lake.

Vinnie is in the pass to FAQ, waiting to engage Stanley. Webinar on the other hand you are right about.

It is true that both Webinar and Sizemore could choose not to fight, if they were sharing the same hex. Your hypothesis therefore hinges on the assumption that Webinar moved his army of infantry and marbits, into the tunnels zone of the 1 hex city, and then choose not to obliterate Sizemore and his relatively tiny garrison, and instead end his turn.

It's possible, true, likely? Not by a longshot.

[rman]

Could Erf world work on a large hex/small hex battlemap like a lot of computer games.

You move on the large hex map until you enter battle then battle is fought on a small hex map that represents the terrain of the single large hex. This would explain the reason for intelligence of individual units and the reason for individual unit actions having any purpose at all.

Your stats are determined by the full stack on the large hex, but once combat is engaged it is free movement ala real time strategy on the smaller hex map.
Or maybe the smaller movements are just "artistic license" for the big dice rolls of the titans made on the large hex map engagegments.

[MattR]

Since it sounds like they might attempt to capture enemy warlords... how likely would Ansom be to trade his pliers for Webinar in a hostage exchange setting?

[kreszantas]

Could Erf world work on a large hex/small hex battlemap like a lot of computer games.

You move on the large hex map until you enter battle then battle is fought on a small hex map that represents the terrain of the single large hex. This would explain the reason for intelligence of individual units and the reason for individual unit actions having any purpose at all.

Your stats are determined by the full stack on the large hex, but once combat is engaged it is free movement ala real time strategy on the smaller hex map.
Or maybe the smaller movements are just "artistic license" for the big dice rolls of the titans made on the large hex map engagegments.


Yes this is the correct way of thinking about how the single external map hex works within the internal city map hexs. There can be a cluster of "internal/city" hexes within the one single large city hex that it represents in the world of Erf. Finally someone else that understand... You get a cookie

[Lamech]

Since it sounds like they might attempt to capture enemy warlords... how likely would Ansom be to trade his pliers for Webinar in a hostage exchange setting?
Not unless he was crushed by grief at his own foolishness. I mean its not like Webinar is his love interest or anything. And since Jillian is going to be perfectly fine since she is well away from the battle and is in no danger what so ever... Looks like Stanley's going to be getting a new artifact to add to his collection.

[CaptC]

Dora is definitely a Warlord- Charlie sends his Archons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0046.html) to escort 'Three commanders and entourage'. The group they were sent to consisted of Dora, Webinar, Jillian, Webinar's mount (same one he's riding in the tunnels), and some gwiffons. The only real candidate to be the third commander in that group is Dora.

Ah! Nice, missed that implication. Well researched!

[Faithless]

Hehe. one of the goblins is carrying a meat tenderizer.

[VariaVespasa]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html
The fact that Parsons bonus is applied to all units in GK does not implicitly mean they count as having a warlord in their stack.


Vinnie is in the pass to FAQ, waiting to engage Stanley. Webinar on the other hand you are right about.

It is true that both Webinar and Sizemore could choose not to fight, if they were sharing the same hex. Your hypothesis therefore hinges on the assumption that Webinar moved his army of infantry and marbits, into the tunnels zone of the 1 hex city, and then choose not to obliterate Sizemore and his relatively tiny garrison, and instead end his turn.

It's possible, true, likely? Not by a longshot.

The fact that Parsons bonus applies does not, in itself, implicitly mean that the gobwin scouts count as having a warlord in their stack, true. The fact that the gobwin scouts apparently have the option to not engage when the bats didnt have that choice DOES, however, and Parson is the only source for a command bonus the scouts have at the moment. Ok, it *could* actually be some function of merely being in their capital thats doing it, but I'm going with the Chief Warlord in Capital thing till the strip says otherwise.

Whoops, I meant Webinar, not Vinnie. :)

It was not MY hypothesis that Webinar moved in and then chose not to engage. I was merely rebutting one or more other posters contention that if they were in the same hex they would inherently have HAD to have fought to the death already. I've edited my original post to clarify that, and correct the Vinnie whoopsie.

[ReccaSquirrel]

Panel 3 of today's strip shows an Archon peering into the tower. While we have no evidence of a thinkagram going on, the hand positions are such that it is possible.

To me though, it looks as if she is simply shielding her eyes from ambient light so that she can see through the glass better.
It does appear to be an archon snooping in that panel. I can't imagine they'd get much information that way but it is a very amusing panel and one of those great tiny details of the comic.

[ReccaSquirrel]

No no, not as assassins, as a message to the RCC that Ansom's entire force in the tunnels has been WIPED OUT.

I suspect it'd be more dramatic flavor than strategic masterstroke.

I don't see that as the Parson way. That and it is more likely to undo the work he has made on morale. Seeing your own units come back as the dead to fight you is certain to insight them more into rage and bring them together instead of causing the others to lose confidence in Ansom.

[rman]

He bought it. (http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/Ontario/first_electric_light_bulb.htm)

The electric light bulb had already been patented twice by the time Edison got his hands on it.

Edison was a major a-hole. Look at what he did in the DC vs AC current wars. Electrocuting dogs and elephants to death for the purpose of securing patent royalties, aka cash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents

[ReccaSquirrel]

Well, I'm calling it again...Parson is going to utterly own Webinar in the tunnels and his girlfriend is going to die but Webinar is going to survive...either being the only one or with a small handful of other troops.

And I'm fairly certain this is going to happen within the next five pages give or take.

I could be wrong, but I have a feeling this is going in that kind of a direction.

I think it will be over in one and maybe two but most likely one panel. We are going to see the wounded units move to where Sizemore is located and we are going to see the full swarm of Gobwins descend on their forces.

[Manoftyr]

I think it will be over in one and maybe two but most likely one panel. We are going to see the wounded units move to where Sizemore is located and we are going to see the full swarm of Gobwins descend on their forces.

Ehh, possibly but I just have this feeling the battle will get a little more drawn out than that for whatever reason...more traps triggering as Webinar and his troops run all over the place perhaps, or Webinar pulling out an unforeseen ace in the hole or something to that effect that'll make it all a bit longer, the potential for action in the tunnel seems to great and grandiose to end in one or two panels imho.

[ReccaSquirrel]

Regarding the whole debate over Bat vs. Gobwin scouts, don't forget that Gobwins get "big bonuses for tunnel fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0029.html)". We don't know what bonuses those are but I suspect an ability to avoid engagement may be involved.

[teratorn]

Regular stacks attack when in contact if there are no warlords in the stack, even if there are warlords in the same hex. Parson being in GK doesn't change the fact that when stacks see eachother they must attack.

I agree with the posters assuming that there must be a tactical grid inside the hex which defines what is contact and non-contact between units. On the other hand there is the question of the size limit (both in area and number of units) for a stack. Erfworld hexes are huge, and for some reason Webinar had to break his army into stacks.

People have been talking about Webinar blaming Ansom for losing the battle. Marbit scouts had seen a crap golem, so it's possible Ansom knows GK has a dirtamancer. He should be expecting the traps. But not the bonus to the golems and probably not the collapsing of select tunnels, for those require the caster to be in the battle front. Webinar can not fault Ansom for something he also didn't think about.

Besides, if anything happens the blame lies with Webinar. The spreading of the army is wise, to minimize the effect of collapses and traps. Keeping the bulk of the army far from the entry in the city during the enemy's turn is also wise. But leading the main stack in blind pursuit is foolish. He could easily break a smaller stack (still with enough strength to kill anything sent by GK) and send it after the scout.

It seems the only guy in Erfworld with a cool enough mind to face Parson is Vinny.

[raphfrk]

However, if Jack started to talk normally, Stanley might notice. Thus, it's possible that he has at least somewhat recovered, and speaks in riddles to hide that fact. Or he could still be deranged.

That might also explain the pause before he talks. He has to think of something in character, which has the correct meaning.

[dr pepper]

Anyone else notice how big a boop Weibnar is commiting? He sees a scout fleeing, and he amasses his forces to pursue it. Despite just surviving first hand the kind of diabolical traps are in the tunnels. He has to realize there's a good chance he's being lead into another trap, or he's an idiot, which I didn't think he was.


History is full of battles that were lost because one side pressed an apparent advantage too far. It's a natural impulse that takes a really savvy commander to rein in. But a commander that just saw half his troops barbecued might not be thinking strategicly.

[The Old Hack]

Concerning the argument about engagement and disengagement: I suspect and hope that it may lead to Word of God clarification either in the current storyline or alternately in the finished product; it appears to me to be the only way we can settle the subject. :smalleek:


History is full of battles that were lost because one side pressed an apparent advantage too far. It's a natural impulse that takes a really savvy commander to rein in. But a commander that just saw half his troops barbecued might not be thinking strategicly.

Not just history, ordinary wargaming is like that, too. I confessed myself guilty of this exact sort of behavior in an earlier thread; while I at times do make myself stop and pull back, I more often try for just that extra inch of advantage. And while I do get away with it sometimes, I have also quite often burned my fingers badly that way. :smallamused:

[fendrin]

Regular stacks attack when in contact if there are no warlords in the stack, even if there are warlords in the same hex. Parson being in GK doesn't change the fact that when stacks see eachother they must attack.

I don't think we have any examples of this, do we?

[Moechi_Vill]

It does appear to be an archon snooping in that panel. I can't imagine they'd get much information that way but it is a very amusing panel and one of those great tiny details of the comic.

Underestimate lip-synch at your own risk. If I was Parson and that wasn't one of Charlie's Archons (and it wouldn't be too costly to repair the window) I'd stab her straight through the heart with sword and glass.
And I adore the Archons (except Jaclyn, hah!).

As it is, turning your back to the Archon in question or threatening with an idle attack should and might work (unless the Archon takes it from every angle in which case Lord Hamster would have to leave the room).


Debate in Question: There is clearly no way scouts can lead enemies into traps without leadership as then there would have to be a tactical (not operational) bait-function or there would be just 1 segment of baiting per round on both sides. Lord Hamster is in da house.

The theory I support requires only a so far implied special rule.
The theory that they are not in the same hex would violate multiple basic tenets of combat we've already been witness to and require, as we've seen in the last few threads, more excuses at a higher level of complexity. The only one of them I've come to with others so far that's halfways realistic is Gobwins being able to avoid engagement. But it goes to reason they would have to level up first to gain such an ability and Parson seems to be using level 1 gobwins for both fighting and scouting. The other theory would demand the engagement grid to be subdivided, something we've heard little off so far (the Archons waiting to engage the Dwagons) and which would require pulling units over the operational map once you get them into your non-operational area... a (strategic)operational bait-function. Not only would it be difficult, there'd have to be many loopholes and exemptions to what we've previously learnt.

I hate using Occam's razor, but this is a good example.

[CaptC]

There's probably game mechanic and there's probably artistic license at play.

It seems clear to me that the battle at the tunnels is a mini-game. In a cardboard tabletop game, they are fighting on a map inset and each side is taking turns. In a computer game, every fight is resolved as a mini-game, a la Final Fantasy or Heroes of Might and Magic games.

The tactical game feels like hex grid but it could be squares, or just tactical areas. For story purposes, that level of mechanics isn't really all that important unless you are trying to actually implement the game. (I'm not. I'm gonna talk about hexes, but substitute your mechanic of choice.)

Both sides are taking turns in the tunnels. That's why we can see Webinar reacting, even though it's not Ansom's turn.

There are clearly fog of war rules. You don't get a God's eye view of all units. Visibility is likely low, but you can probably see the hex next to your current location. So, if you want to scout something, you send out a unit that stops in the adjacent hex. Since you aren't in the same tactical hex, autoengage rules don't matter. (Someone has been saying autoengage rules apply when one stack sees another. I believe it applies when you are in the same hex. Don't confuse strategic hexes and tactical hexes when thinking about this.) You want to track something? Stay in the next hex, follow it when it moves.

If the unit you are scouting attacks you, autoengage applies and your scout dies horribly. Or autoengage doesn't apply because Parson is around, in which case your scout gets a retreat possibility. (*Shrug* not enough combat power in scouts to affect the battle either way. Their role is information gathering, not doing damage. If you choose to believe that newly ruthless Parson is trying to save Gobwin scouts, or that the game always has a retreat option, that works, too.)

If your scout dies, you send out another one. You lead an enemy unit to traps or Sizemore using scouts as breadcrumbs. If you find a tempting target that you can kill with minimal losses, you attack it with a large stack of Gobwins or Sizemore's stack of golems.

I think this gives a mechanic for all the tactics Parson discusses. The emotions of the units is artistic license. A scout sneaking in a tunnel is in reality in the next adjacent tactical hex. A scout dismayed at finding Webinar's stack is being attacked on Webinar's tactical turn. Webinar's determined look and apparent advance is exactly that, on his tactical turn he's pressing the fight.

(Artistic license and my supposition here: unless the author's want to show a God's-eye view, they aren't going to devote multiple panels to showing all of Webinar's stacks advancing - they are going to short-cut with a view of Webinar being angry and determined and advancing through the tunnels. I'm supposing Webinar is competent, and thus he will be using his numerical advantage properly. All his units are advancing, he's not haring off with his single stack after a lone scout.)

I'd expect the fight at the walls to be a mini-map fight as well.

We don't know how the mini-map converts back to the strategic game. I've seen multiple methods, but most commonly the tunnel fight must complete in it's entirety, with one side winning and one side losing. Given that the fights in outside hexes always seem to end with one side dead or fleeing, I suspect that's the case here, too.

The next few panels should tell us that mechanic, anyway.

[Angband]

Ah! Nice, missed that implication. Well researched!

Right, from comic #56 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0056.html) Jillian says to Webinar "I'm a 9; you're a 5. And your girlfriend (Dora) is a 2."

We also see in Comic 116 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0116.html) that Caesar Borgata (Transylvito's Chief Warlord) relieves Jillian from command, presumably meaning that his Leadership score is 10 or even higher.

Now that Parson has his magic sword that grants him Leadership and Combat, would another warlord looking at him be able to see his stats now?

[Cinqueda]

Isn't Parson a 2 also, like Dora? Did completing his set (sword/glasses/bracer) grant him a higher Warlord bonus?

[SteveMB]

Isn't Parson a 2 also, like Dora? Did completing his set (sword/glasses/bracer) grant him a higher Warlord bonus?

Parson's bonus is invisible, but they deduced that it was a 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html) (from his effect on other units as Chief Warlord). It might be higher now -- the cereal box maze lists "Leadership" as as one of the sword's features (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0118.html), but it's not yet clear exactly what that means.

[Vossik]

Right, from comic #56 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0056.html) Jillian says to Webinar "I'm a 9; you're a 5. And your girlfriend (Dora) is a 2."

We also see in Comic 116 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0116.html) that Caesar Borgata (Transylvito's Chief Warlord) relieves Jillian from command, presumably meaning that his Leadership score is 10 or even higher.

Now that Parson has his magic sword that grants him Leadership and Combat, would another warlord looking at him be able to see his stats now?

I thought that was regarding unit level, they never made any implication it had anything to do with leadership did they?

[Noble Savant]

It specifically said that the sword granted "leadership".

I suppose you could assume that it granted Parson some tactical abilities, that would help him lead troops, but I don't really think so. Not only is he already excellent in that respect, (from what we've seen), but the box implied that the prizes were to make up for deficiencies in Parson that stopped him from being the Perfect Warlord.

He had a low leadership value, that isn't perfect. Thus, the spell fixed this, by giving him a sword that increased it. It's perfectly logical.

[Avilan the Grey]

Concerning the argument about engagement and disengagement: I suspect and hope that it may lead to Word of God clarification either in the current storyline or alternately in the finished product; it appears to me to be the only way we can settle the subject. :smalleek:

Not just history, ordinary wargaming is like that, too. I confessed myself guilty of this exact sort of behavior in an earlier thread; while I at times do make myself stop and pull back, I more often try for just that extra inch of advantage. And while I do get away with it sometimes, I have also quite often burned my fingers badly that way. :smallamused:

I suck at RTS games. However the few times I do win I tend to be cautious in the extreme; I usually prolong games up to 3 times it's necessary length because I do not dare to push for the final attack. And when I do I get very surprised how much more powerful I am than I thought I was. Oh well we all have problems :smallbiggrin:

I assume it's really the opposite problem of a commander above; A lot of armies has failed to succeed (and some have been outright defeated) because of a hesitant general.

[hiigaran]

I suck at RTS games. However the few times I do win I tend to be cautious in the extreme; I usually prolong games up to 3 times it's necessary length because I do not dare to push for the final attack. And when I do I get very surprised how much more powerful I am than I thought I was. Oh well we all have problems :smallbiggrin:

I assume it's really the opposite problem of a commander above; A lot of armies has failed to succeed (and some have been outright defeated) because of a hesitant general.

funny though how erfworld isn't a real time strategy game its a turn based strategy game :smalltongue:

[fendrin]

funny though how erfworld isn't a real time strategy game its a turn based strategy game :smalltongue:

Yes, but the problem described applies to both. In this day and age of computer games, RTS is a much more common shared experience than TBS.

Of course, RTS games are really just TBS with time limited turns that go by so fast we cannot perceive the transition from one to the other... the same way a film is sequence of still images that move so quickly we cannot perceive that it is not one single moving picture.

[VariaVespasa]

Regular stacks attack when in contact if there are no warlords in the stack, even if there are warlords in the same hex. Parson being in GK doesn't change the fact that when stacks see eachother they must attack.

Blatantly false- A stack is all the units in the hex. Thats what "stack" MEANS. None of the units in the dwagon donut hunting horde were forced to attack the dwagons even though there were far more than 8 units per warlord and therefore by your thought there must have been uncommanded stacks present. Units often operate in 8's due to the max unit bonus, but there is no known limit to the number of units in a stack.

It hasnt been made clear what the exact relationship is between combat strengths, defense values and leadership/item/unit bonuses, but the fact people dont usually seem to stack more than 8 strongly suggests that the bonuses count for a lot more in a fight than a few extra units. I'd like to know more about that aspect of combat in Erfworld since even with bonuses being important in a game (Squad Leader, War in Europe, etc) having extra raw unit strength available in a fight is still usually highly valuable, and in Erfworld it doesnt seem to be really, or 8 unit stacks wouldnt be the commonality they apparently are. The klog where the 8 unit bonus cap was mentioned said nothing about a limit on the number of units in a hex, but there must be some reason big stacks arent used, but what exactly it is remains a mystery at the moment. :(

[CaptC]

I don't think fights occur on the strategic map, I think a smaller tactical minigame opens up for each fight. A tactical map hex is either limited by game mechanic to eight unit stacks, or coimmanders tend to do that because it makes sense to have as many optimum stacks as possible. A strategic map hex can contain many, many units, and is correspondingly powerful because it can make many optimum sized stacks on the tactical map.

[SteveMB]

Blatantly false- A stack is all the units in the hex.

"Okay, near hex, second stack is where we start." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0055.html) (emphasis added)

Clearly, a hex can contain more than one stack.

[Vesilasi]

"Okay, near hex, second stack is where we start." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0055.html) (emphasis added)

Clearly, a hex can contain more than one stack.

For that matter, "Weak stack first!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0075.html) and "Merge Phat-Singh and Manpower's stacks." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0076.html)

[CaptC]

Hmmm. Vesali's pointers are all tactical scenes, and can be different stacks in different hexes. SteveMB's scene can't be explained that easily. From the evidence, multiple stacks can indeed be in a single hex, and what the stacks are can be seen before initiating combat. My mental picture just got flipped a bit, that kind of mechanic makes it much more difficult for the game to actually be cardboard on a table.

[Zolem]

He bought it. (http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/Ontario/first_electric_light_bulb.htm)

The electric light bulb had already been patented twice by the time Edison got his hands on it.

Ah, but those where not incandesant lightbulbs.

[Vossik]

Hmmm. Vesali's pointers are all tactical scenes, and can be different stacks in different hexes. SteveMB's scene can't be explained that easily. From the evidence, multiple stacks can indeed be in a single hex, and what the stacks are can be seen before initiating combat. My mental picture just got flipped a bit, that kind of mechanic makes it much more difficult for the game to actually be cardboard on a table.

Vesilasi's chosen strip all takes place in the single hex over the lake. Unless you were talking about separate tactical map. Which I won't endorse till we get Word of God or see one in the comic.

[CaptC]

Vesilasi's chosen strip all takes place in the single hex over the lake. Unless you were talking about separate tactical map. Which I won't endorse till we get Word of God or see one in the comic.

Yep, tactical hexes is what I meant.

YMMV regarding whether there are tacmaps. It's a theorem that works for me, it's a very common mechanic, and it explains a lot of what we see going on without needlessly complex rules.

[Vossik]

My personal problem with that strip is that he is telling Manpower to attack NOW. Who goes to strike at Jillian, yet he is killed before his attack by Ansom. Which doesn't seem very turnbased to me. You could vouch that it was for dramatic effect, but honestly I think we need to learn more about the combat mechanic before we make any decision.

Personally I am leaning towards the idea that fighting is real time and initiative is gauged by some formula involving move. In the end we still don't know much though.

[multilis]

Age of wonders flips to a turn based tactical map during combat, similar with heros of might and magic. Lords of Magic flips to a real time combat map, like its peer, Lords of the Realm.

Many other games use simpler stacks of units fighting without a map.

One very ususual aspect of game is how combat in a cell and movement on world map can occur at same time, eg Ansom rescue.

We have 3 casters+undead (including warlords)+Parson+sentry unit(s) with 0 movement points that in theory could help in caves at 0 movement cost. Undead tend to have resistances to certain area effects/traps so at times may be useful.

Unit with regeneration may be useful as can be fully healed for next battle even if damaged in this one. (Eg Bogroll)

A key question is how much wiping out enemies in caves will help leveling. Normally, if a small group is able to wipe out a much larger damaged group, they will all go up a level or more in veteran/elite status.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Ah, but those where not incandesant lightbulbs.

Yes they were. Read the patents. Edison was initially refused a patent because his filament lamp was too similar to the one in the British patent.

What Edison did was (a) recognize the potential of the idea; (b) put a helluva lot of research and hard work into making it practical (extending the filament's life from a few hours to, eventually, a thousand hours or so); and (c) marketing to get people using the thing.

Edison deserves top marks and full credit for vision and doing the hard work needed to give us the incandescent electric light (instead of just patenting an undeveloped idea and sitting on it like his predecessors), but he didn't invent the concept.

[CaptC]

My personal problem with that strip is that he is telling Manpower to attack NOW. Who goes to strike at Jillian, yet he is killed before his attack by Ansom. Which doesn't seem very turnbased to me. You could vouch that it was for dramatic effect, but honestly I think we need to learn more about the combat mechanic before we make any decision.

The only part that bothers me is that Ansom attacked by surprise. I can't think of ANY TBS game, cardboard or computer, that allows for surprise reinforcements. Except an RTS. Which this is NOT.

So, I assume artistic license is at play in allowing a surprise attack.

Reinforcements per se don't bug me. I've seen reinforcement rules in TBS games that allow adjacent hexes to provide support after a specified number of tactical combat rounds. Maybe something like that happened, even though Ansom would be reinforcing from two or three hexes away. Ansom arrived as a reinforcement on a map edge, conveniently enough right at the same map edge Jillian was fighting Manpower.

A little too convenient, but I've seen stranger things happen with cardboard bitz in hand. :smallamused:

[Vossik]

The only part that bothers me is that Ansom attacked by surprise. I can't think of ANY TBS game, cardboard or computer, that allows for surprise reinforcements. Except an RTS. Which this is NOT.

So, I assume artistic license is at play in allowing a surprise attack.

Reinforcements per se don't bug me. I've seen reinforcement rules in TBS games that allow adjacent hexes to provide support after a specified number of tactical combat rounds. Maybe something like that happened, even though Ansom would be reinforcing from two or three hexes away. Ansom arrived as a reinforcement on a map edge, conveniently enough right at the same map edge Jillian was fighting Manpower.

A little too convenient, but I've seen stranger things happen with cardboard bitz in hand. :smallamused:

Honestly I believe we are being kept in the dark about the combat system for the most part because they want to go more in depth when Parson is going into combat.

[fendrin]

Honestly I believe we are being kept in the dark about the combat system for the most part because they want to go more in depth when Parson is going into combat.

Honestly I think we are being kept in the dark because it allows them a freer hand with the story.
Remember, Erfworld is first and foremost a story, and only secondarily (if that) about the game mechanics.

Now, I could easily see there being a 'time' value associated with each hex of movement, allowing for the possibility of reserve forces. Given that it could only be done by the side who's turn it is, it would have to be a matter of a back-up plan rather than using a small number of forces as a lure, then pouncing with a larger force. That would have to be a multi-turn strategy.

Of course, this would not be possible in a boardgame, as non-computer games (with a few exceptions) do not handle real-time combat particularly well.

[raphfrk]

The only part that bothers me is that Ansom attacked by surprise. I can't think of ANY TBS game, cardboard or computer, that allows for surprise reinforcements. Except an RTS. Which this is NOT.


The rules seem to be that on your turn, you can move all your units at the same time.

However, there is no master 'player' who actually issues the commands. Each unit moves on its own initiative. Though, all units do recognise the chain of command due to natural thinkamancy.

Fog of war would thus allow unexpected reinforcements (in principle, unexpected to the player himself).

However, that shouldn't have been possible against Parson due to his board. However, maybe the board 'zooms in' for combat and thus they just didn't see Anson's stack moving towards the dragons.

You issue commands to your units via whatever tech/magic you have but they then have to carry them out (or maybe not as was almost the case with Jillian).

Non-realistically, each unit can probably save its move until the end. You could move two scouts forward to find the enemy using up their move, and then order all your air units to converge on the location of the one that found them.

In real life, doing that would take two turns as 'hold position' would burn up move for your air units.

It probably works like civilisation, where you can sequence unit moves. However, the switch to real time combat means that units would also need a 'speed' stat, but probably would be proportional to move.

If that was true, then Jillian's tactics were poor. A better plan would be to hold position outside the Dragon hex and tell Ansom where the dragons were. Both stacks could then enter the lake hex at the same time.

However, she may have already entered the hex by the time she spotted them. In that case, if she tried to wait, Parson could have attacked. However, even then if she had 2 move left, she could have left the hex and re-entered when Ansom arrived.

Another option is that each side is assigned a certain amount of time and move is just a measure of speed. However, that doesn't seem to be the case as Jillian was just waiting around and in turn based games, move is the number of hexes you can move.

[raphfrk]

Now, I could easily see there being a 'time' value associated with each hex of movement, allowing for the possibility of reserve forces. Given that it could only be done by the side who's turn it is, it would have to be a matter of a back-up plan rather than using a small number of forces as a lure, then pouncing with a larger force. That would have to be a multi-turn strategy.


We have seen that move isn't the only limit on what units can do. A Thinkamancer can only make a finite number of calls in a go.

Also Sizemore seems to have the ability to do stuff even when not his move. Presumably, he can't do an infinite amount of stuff per day.

[teratorn]

Blatantly false- A stack is all the units in the hex. Thats what "stack" MEANS.

That would be a somewhat strange definition. People already gave counter examples from the strip, but the simplest case is when you invade a nearby hex with part of a single original stack. First you must break your stack, thus getting two in the hex.

I tend to see Erfworld as TB to deploy forces between hexes, and RT within a given hex. There are many points I still don't understand, mostly related to the area that can be covered by ground and flying stacks (what is contact?)

[CaptC]

Remember, Erfworld is first and foremost a story, and only secondarily (if that) about the game mechanics.

Did I mention that I own a game store? I give game demos all the time. The authors are following the rules for successful game demos, and for the same reasons.

First, the rules as I explain them to my staff:

1) Never win the demo. The customer always succeeds on their first exposure to a game.
2) Tell a story first.
3) Spoon-feed the customer strategy.
4) Just tell the customer the number they need to roll on a die. Don't tell them how to calculate it, just tell them the number they need to roll.
5) Explain rules in detail only when asked.
6) Even if it's normally an all-weekend game, the demo can take no more than 15 minutes.
7) Give the customer a take-away just for taking the demo. (I want a unipegataur.)

Here's why it works that way:

Game players tend to fall into 10 categories.

01) Storytellers. These players are actually scripting a movie in their heads, usually with themselves as the star of the show.
10) Gamer geeks. These are analytical players (who probably understand binary). These players are looking to play optimal games given complete understanding of the rules and game situation.

If you give a game demo where you explain the rules of the game, and then say "Let's play!", you lose the storytellers. There's no STORY involved, it's just cardboard counters or little painted soldiers and some boring rules.

If you give a demo where orcs are charging space marines and Ted clutches his chest and falls over, screaming "For the Emperor!" as he expires, the storytellers are right there with you. And you don't lose the analytical player: he just asks you to explain why he needed to roll a 3+ for that armor save.

In other words, story trumps rules. I've been known to allow my opponents to get a cavalry charge even when they clearly missed by 1/2", just because the story of the battle works better. (Plus, I never win the demo... :smallwink:)

[Aquillion]

funny though how erfworld isn't a real time strategy game its a turn based strategy game :smalltongue:It's kind of both. The overall rules and system represent a turn-based strategy game, yes... but the units think and act in real time, when they're not constrained by those rules.

So it follows that the instant they're in a position where they're not limited by the rules (if they're all in the same hex, say), they start behaving like RTS units. The move limits keep Jillian from running up to someone and croaking them with her sword if they're in another hex, but once she's within arm's reach (or even just within the boundaries of the same hex as them), that no longer seems to apply, and she's free to croak away; naturally, they're free to freak out and try to run around within the hex at the exact same time, in the same way we've seen people walking around freely within their hex up until now.

Likewise, within a hex movement doesn't require move (Bogroll has 0 but is not immobile), and for the most part all interactions (how fast you run, scouting, etc) are governed by real-world rules, with the caveat that a creature's physical abilities are accurately described by its stats.

This is the simplest explanation for what is happening in the tunnels. The whole area is one big hex (possibly even just one part of the larger city hex). There's a warlord inside the tunnel (Sizemore, who counts as a warlord; if it counts as part of the capital, possibly Parson counts, too), so the Gobwin Knob units are controlled and do not auto-attack. Aside from his big bonus to golems, that is part of why it was so important to have Sizemore serve as a warlord (Gobwin Knob doesn't have enough left for everything, probably.)

Hexes are not one big single space where everyone stands on the same spot. That's been made very clear in the way combat acts in detail, and in all the moving around inside Gobwin Knob by the heroes, which amounted to being in the same hex.

[CaptC]

It's kind of both. The overall rules and system represent a turn-based strategy game, yes... but the units think and act in real time, when they're not constrained by those rules.

I don't think the game needs to encompass the off-turn stuff. Think cut scenes.

[Aquillion]

I don't think the game needs to encompass the off-turn stuff. Think cut scenes.Why not? Important things can happen in those parts. It's clearly possible for prisoners to escape, for instance, or to croak some of their captors (Wanda notes this when taking Jillian's chopsticks.) It was possible for Parson to do something that endangered the link of Gobwin Knob's casters during the night. Wanda's entire interrogation of Jillian took place off-turn, during the night (because their turn started at the end of it.) Gobwin Knob's leaders were able to use magic items to send orders to their units several hexes away, outside of their turn.

Erfworld's rules are much less constraining than many people seem to think they are. The turn rules / movement rules only slap down magic forcefields between hex edges; aside from those, and a few additional rules that govern who you can attack and unit strength, we've had every indication that Erfworld behaves more-or-less like the real world.

In other words, yeah, "cutscenes" -- but combat is also cutscenes in Erfworld. All of it. A unit's stats influence how it does, but you can (say) seize the higher ground within a hex, or fill a hex with poison gas, or drop rocks on your enemy, or use any one of a million other real-world tactics with no regard for game mechanics. Once you're inside a hex, while your stats might determine how strong your arm is or how good you are at combat, you still have to physically run up and swing your sword in a real-world fashion to kill someone -- it doesn't happen automagically.

[fendrin]

If that was true, then Jillian's tactics were poor. A better plan would be to hold position outside the Dragon hex and tell Ansom where the dragons were. Both stacks could then enter the lake hex at the same time.

However, she may have already entered the hex by the time she spotted them. In that case, if she tried to wait, Parson could have attacked. However, even then if she had 2 move left, she could have left the hex and re-entered when Ansom arrived.
Jillian's orders were to find and croak the wounded dwagons. Ansom's initial plan would have been to retreat to the column to avoid being croaked by the dwagon ring (as Vinny says, it's a trap for Ansom). It's only after Jillian's proclamation of her love (via thinkagram) that Ansom acts out of emotion (not strategy) putting his life and Vinnie's on the line to save Jillian. If Stanley hadn't acted equally irrationally, the war might have ended already (Parson wanted to use the B dwagons to croak or capture Ansom on the next turn, but Stanley recalled them instead so he could go off on his own).

Thus Jillian was following strategically sound orders by not waiting for Ansom.
There is some debate about whether or not she saw them before she entered their hex, but my interpretation is that you cannot see units in other hexes.


Another option is that each side is assigned a certain amount of time and move is just a measure of speed. However, that doesn't seem to be the case as Jillian was just waiting around and in turn based games, move is the number of hexes you can move.
Not to mention that turns end at the declaration of the side currently moving, and chronological events (such as nightfall) happen based on the turn ending.


We have seen that move isn't the only limit on what units can do. A Thinkamancer can only make a finite number of calls in a go.

Also Sizemore seems to have the ability to do stuff even when not his move. Presumably, he can't do an infinite amount of stuff per day.
Yes, however it is well established that units can only move on their own turn.


Did I mention that I own a game store? I give game demos all the time. The authors are following the rules for successful game demos, and for the same reasons. No, I didn't know that. I'm still pretty sure that Rob has stated that Erfworld was not written with a specific set of game mechanics in mind, and that they are determined as needed by the story. I don't have a link, though, so I'm not 100% sure.

[ishnar]

Not having played Rome, Total War, I don't know this for sure, but
"If you are in a tactical battle, does your turn end before it finishes?"
My guess would be that all tactical battles are fought until a winner is found.

Like most turn based games. Tactical battles are resolved "instantaneously" as far as the strategic turn is concerned. You can choose to auto-resolve the battle or lead it personally.

City battles are timed, I don't remember how long, usually there is plenty of time unless you are being too conservative in marching around the enemy city. If the defender holds the city for the timed period, then the defender wins. The attacker must capture the city square and hold for 3 mins. Other than city battles, I don't think there is a time limit, it's fight until you win or the other wins.

Even though some have mentioned a mini-hex grid for tactical battles, Bogroll's 0 move argues against it. So I believe hexes apply to strategy only, not tactics. Battles are engaged by turn, but once engaged, they are resolved RT.


Erfworld's rules are much less constraining than many people seem to think they are. The turn rules / movement rules only slap down magic forcefields between hex edges; aside from those, and a few additional rules that govern who you can attack and unit strength, we've had every indication that Erfworld behaves more-or-less like the real world.

In other words, yeah, "cutscenes" -- but combat is also cutscenes in Erfworld. All of it. A unit's stats influence how it does, but you can (say) seize the higher ground within a hex, or fill a hex with poison gas, or drop rocks on your enemy, or use any one of a million other real-world tactics with no regard for game mechanics. Once you're inside a hex, while your stats might determine how strong your arm is or how good you are at combat, you still have to physically run up and swing your sword in a real-world fashion to kill someone -- it doesn't happen automagically.

Pretty much everything Aquillion said.

As for the whole Scout argument. It's worth noting that in many turn based games, special units, like scouts, are not attackable except by other special units, such as assassins or other scouts.

[Zolem]

Edison deserves top marks and full credit for vision and doing the hard work needed to give us the incandescent electric light (instead of just patenting an undeveloped idea and sitting on it like his predecessors), but he didn't invent the concept.

True, but he made the product, and that's more than the person with the water-bicycle patent ever did. It's eassy to come up with an idea, it's a lot harder to do it.

[Zone]

The only part that bothers me is that Ansom attacked by surprise. I can't think of ANY TBS game, cardboard or computer, that allows for surprise reinforcements. Except an RTS. Which this is NOT.
Have you ever played Hearts of Iron? Damn good game, btw. It is Real Time Strategy, but I think its system could work in Erfworld, too.

[Random221]

Collapsing tunnels is a great fun but there is one more greater!

That needs 1, 2 or more foolomancer.
1.:Simply create a maze of the tunnels (right and set) and watch the enemy with lookamancers.
2.:We fool the scouts by an image that they found the way in, but we really show a dead end. The army starts to move and the front arrives.
3.:We demolish the end of the path and open the way to the back of the army. We can have 2 choices now:
4a: Veil the back of the army as the defenders, so the front will think they found the way and attack
4b: Veil the front of the army, as the defenders caught them and attack.
5: If this not works, how about closing the caves before and after them without hesitation? If they did wander a lot in the caverns (and you finished off their cavefiters), they will absolutely have no retreat.
If trying to dig, the hole cave might collapse over them (no captain would sacrefice such an army - I hope):smallbiggrin:

This hole caving plan does not need mutch units, being while Parson can aim for the flying units.

Other plan:

Simultanously collapse the caves separating a few dosen foes at once that can be defeated without major losses (or without any losses). If blowing up all the caves would demolish the castle, this might be a good strategy :D:smallcool: Use the same thecnique like the dragons, except blocking the way afther backing. Ah, can mudgolems and earth elementals walk trough solid rock? This might help a bit too...
What is better this way? XP!!!! Parson can levelup!!!


If this trick would get out of hand, then do build some extra walls to the city that can be veiled as the real garrison thus making the foes to siege (maybe themselves?) a fake castle. Can buy time. Maybe till population ("This week is the week of PLAGUE!, no dwellings increase population") Ah, is this heroes 2,3 or 4 cause in 4, population is daily...

Why did Parson not set the unitgrowth?

Tooooooooooooo mutch questions I guess...