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Leicontis
2008-09-12, 11:17 AM
My party is hitting a group of slavers to free the slaves they've taken, and I'm looking at having the "value" of the slaves count against the total loot (I've been pretty generous w/ loot so far, and I want to throttle things a bit). My question is, what would your generic unskilled human slave be "worth"?

Albonor
2008-09-12, 11:19 AM
200-300 gp each? Dangerous work, expenses, worth a lot if put to good use...

Paragon Badger
2008-09-12, 11:26 AM
I'd say about 1-5 gp, so a level 1 aristocrat can own a half dozen or so.

I can't believe i'm even answering this. :smalltongue:

Evil DM Mark3
2008-09-12, 11:37 AM
My party is hitting a group of slavers to free the slaves they've taken, and I'm looking at having the "value" of the slaves count against the total loot (I've been pretty generous w/ loot so far, and I want to throttle things a bit). My question is, what would your generic unskilled human slave be "worth"? 3-5gp, 3gp if you want the biblical referance, but here is a question:

WHY?

Are you expecting them to sell the slave? If not, why does their value get taken out of the party loot?

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-12, 11:39 AM
Generally the cost should be about what a peasant would earn in five to seven years, but it's highly dependent on supply and demand at the time. If there's been a war recently the prices will be much cheaper and if it's been a long dry spell of peace it'll be more. Exotic, extremely talented (or let's face it, very charismatic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoubleEntendre)) slaves could costs thousands of times more as well.

50-100 gp sounds fair for Forgotten Realms, but keep in mind that slaves are usually auctioned. If the PC's start buying up a lot, then the auctioneers will have a few plants in the audience start bidding up the prices because the PC's seem willing to pay almost any price.

It also might make them unpopular with the slavers if they learn that the slaves they captured are going to be freed. Others might take the chance and recapture the slaves after they're freed and put them right back up on the block. We're not talking about the world's most ethical breed of people, after all.

SilverClawShift
2008-09-12, 11:53 AM
3-5gp, 3gp if you want the biblical referance, but here is a question:

WHY?

He did technically allready answer that question. He's been dishing out too much loot, and is using a logical way to scale it back (the logic being, if the slavers have 100gp worth of 'stuff' in their caravan, to the slavers, the slaves are part of that stuff).

Also, take geography into consideration when determining the value of a slave. Slaves are probably much cheaper near, say, Thay, where they're more common.
Also, who has the slaves, and what they're for, might make a big difference. Are the slaves ultimately going to wind up as Mindflayer fodder? Someone buying a slave (even an unskilled one) would probably be willing to invest more if they expected to have them for years. A slave who's going to wind up as dinner is probably worth a lot less, because who cares what their talents are and how capable they are? They're a brain in a jar that's not going to exist at the end of the month.

Leicontis
2008-09-12, 11:54 AM
I'm taking the "price" of the slaves out of the slavers' loot for two reasons:
1) I tend to get careless with loot, and the party tends to end up with unbalancingly large amounts of money. It's generally a bad thing to give a party the equivalent value of a treasure twice their level.
2) It's an exalted (alignment, not system) party, and such an uber-good group needs to face additional difficulties for choosing the high road on occasion.

Mark Hall
2008-09-12, 12:01 PM
Won't answer your question about price, directly, but read Joel Rosenberg's "The Sword and the Chain" and "The Silver Crown" for the effects of freeing slaves (The first book in the series, The Sleeping Dragon (http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200302/0743435893.htm?blurb), is available free on-line from Baen Books).

For cost, I think the suggestion of what a person of similar skills could earn in 5-7 years is pretty reasonable. I did a fair amount of research for my article on slavery in Palladium Fantasy (in Rifter #38 (http://www.palladiumbooks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=138&Category_Code=R100)); a healthy adult slave was usually one of the most valuable things on a plantation... before any of the workhorses, and sometimes ahead of a well-trained riding horse. Most 2nd level, trained slaves (attribute of about 14, 5 in their profession or craft) will be worth about 220-310gp a piece. That puts it in a reasonable range, based on the research I did. Absolutely useless slaves (no useful skills, no applicable attributes) would figure at 180-255gp... they're still backs.* Of course, this assumes they're otherwise healthy.


*Take 10 check is 17, so about 17sp per two weeks. Multiply by 26 for SP per year, so 442sp/year. 5 years gives a lower range of 221, 7 years gives an upper range of 309.4. For the useless ones, we take 365sp/year, times five (182.5gp) or seven (255.5gp).

AKA_Bait
2008-09-12, 12:27 PM
*Take 10 check is 17, so about 17sp per two weeks. Multiply by 26 for SP per year, so 442sp/year. 5 years gives a lower range of 221, 7 years gives an upper range of 309.4. For the useless ones, we take 365sp/year, times five (182.5gp) or seven (255.5gp).

I'm kinda distracted here, so I may be missing something, but did you just accidentally swap GP for SP in there? It looks as though you GP #'s should have been moved back a decimal place.

ShaggyMarco
2008-09-12, 12:43 PM
Also, for further moral dillemma, you might also want to consider the price of setting those freed slaves up with a new life.

If it really a good (exalted) act to free slaves and leave them with nothing but their freedom? Maybe the PCs should also have to spend their hard-earned loot on buying these slaves food, clothes, and lodging long enough for them to get honest work.

If not, I might even have the PCs run into these slaves again later--having either turned to crime and prostitution due to being completely destitute after being freed, or having become voluntairily reenslaved to avoid starving to death with no skills and no job.

For turly exalted characters, freeing slaves shouldn't be enough unless they have homes and jobs waiting for them--and an easy way to get back to them.

Mark Hall
2008-09-12, 12:51 PM
I'm kinda distracted here, so I may be missing something, but did you just accidentally swap GP for SP in there? It looks as though you GP #'s should have been moved back a decimal place.

I didn't; it winds up being thousands of silver.

Yakk
2008-09-12, 01:19 PM
If it costs 1 cp to feed/clothe a slave per day, then that's 3.65 less GP per year, or over 5 to 7 years 18.25 to 25.55 less gp per slave.

I'd expect "extra skilled" slaves to require higher quality/quantity food/clothing/etc.

This happens to equal 10% of the money you make off of the slave for a low-quality one. I'll presume a similar scaling up for higher quality slaves.

So we get:
Average Stat Slave: ~160 gp - 230 gp
High Quality Slave: ~200 gp - 280 gp

Now, this is their value to an end-buyer in a good marketplace.

Let's assume moving that slave costs 1 sp per day per slave, they move at 20 miles per day, and there is a 1% chance per day of loss.

If you are 200 miles away from your destination, that's 1 gp and a 10% markup just from travel.

Add in the auctioneers fee of 10%, and you are down to:
Standard: 130 to 190 gp
Good: 160 to 230 gp

Or, to be quick about it, 150 gp for a Standard slave, and 200 gp for a Good quality slave, to a slaver, with price-to-customer expected to be 30% to 50% higher than this.

Jayabalard
2008-09-12, 01:33 PM
Won't answer your question about price, directly, but read Joel Rosenberg's "The Sword and the Chain" and "The Silver Crown" for the effects of freeing slaves (The first book in the series, The Sleeping Dragon (http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200302/0743435893.htm?blurb), is available free on-line from Baen Books).The series is "The guardians of the flame; those two in particular (the 2nd and 3rd books in the series) have some good information if you're going to have people regularly hitting slaver caravans.

Prometheus
2008-09-12, 02:15 PM
Also, for further moral dillemma, you might also want to consider the price of setting those freed slaves up with a new life.

If it really a good (exalted) act to free slaves and leave them with nothing but their freedom? Maybe the PCs should also have to spend their hard-earned loot on buying these slaves food, clothes, and lodging long enough for them to get honest work.

If not, I might even have the PCs run into these slaves again later--having either turned to crime and prostitution due to being completely destitute after being freed, or having become voluntairily reenslaved to avoid starving to death with no skills and no job.

For turly exalted characters, freeing slaves shouldn't be enough unless they have homes and jobs waiting for them--and an easy way to get back to them.
That's exactly right. What you do is describe one or two of the lot in detail, and if that doesn't tug the PCs heartstrings enough to provide for the slaves, you have the memory needed to describe the slave's terrible fate later.

Zeta Kai
2008-09-12, 02:40 PM
I've always said that a slave should cost ~10-20 times the cost of hiring a person to do their job for a day. So, an unskilled slave used for labor would cost 1-2gp, whereas an artisan or a tailor would cost much more.

AKA_Bait
2008-09-12, 03:20 PM
I didn't; it winds up being thousands of silver.

Ah. I see now. Stupid litigation messes up math brain...

Hawriel
2008-09-12, 03:45 PM
Mark Hall has it about right. His numbers are close to what slaves cost in the United States around 1700. The price of slaves when up. Slaves have been sold for over 1,000 dollars. If you want a good read about American history, slavery and the transition from indentured servents to slaves. I recomend Edmond Morgen's American Freedom American Slavery. When westerners think about slavery thay usualy think of two different kinds. Slavery in the Americas (yes plural not exclusive to the U.S.) and the Jewish inslavment by Egyptians.

For D&D replace pounds stirling, or dollars, with GP. I honestly think the poster who suggested 1-3 GP for a slave, are being obsurd. A light horse is 75gp, a heavy horse is 200gp. A good work horse would be a heavy horse 200gp. A bit and bridle is 2gp. How can you claim a slave is 1-3gp? That doesnt even come close to paying for the costs of capture, care, and transportation of the slave. Slaves are expencive. IF it wasnt there would be no profit in slave traiding or having them. The OPs idea of making the value of the slaves apart of the cost of the loot is right. Slaves are property. They are a commodity. The slaver would have their value listed right next to the other items he had for sale.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 03:52 PM
([Profession skill+10+Wis mod]/2-.7)*52*5, for the value in GP, give or take.

Generally a slave is worth what they can earn in 7 years, minus what it will cost to keep them alive, house them, and pay someone to watch them. Expensive slaves, courtesans, mages, and the like, are worth far more, but also have to have the costs of keeping them factored in, which will be higher.

tyckspoon
2008-09-12, 03:57 PM
I honestly think the poster who suggested 1-3 GP for a slave, are being obsurd. A light horse is 75gp, a heavy horse is 200gp. A good work horse would be a heavy horse 200gp. A bit and bridle is 2gp. How can you claim a slave is 1-3gp?

Well, the poster mentioned the Biblical price. Real-world currencies and prices have pretty much never looked anything like D&D price charts, because D&D gps are ludicrously large bits of gold (at least as coinage; they're a lot more like trading in pure bullion.) 3 gp is an ounce of one of the world's most valued metals; that seems like a reasonably fair price for a slave to me in the real world (if somewhat cheap, probably unskilled, and in a generally low-priced society.) The only reason it's massively undervalued in D&D is that GPs themselves have no practical relationship to value. That heavy horse is valued at a full four pounds of gold. I doubt there has ever been a horse that was actually worth that much. Treating GPs as money rather than essentially an arbitrary score-keeping unit is doomed to nonsense from the start.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 04:02 PM
Well, the poster mentioned the Biblical price. Real-world currencies and prices have pretty much never looked anything like D&D price charts, because D&D gps are ludicrously large bits of gold (at least as coinage; they're a lot more like trading in pure bullion.) 3 gp is an ounce of one of the world's most valued metals; that seems like a reasonably fair price for a slave to me in the real world (if somewhat cheap, probably unskilled, and in a generally low-priced society.) The only reason it's massively undervalued in D&D is that GPs themselves have no practical relationship to value. That heavy horse is valued at a full four pounds of gold. I doubt there has ever been a horse that was actually worth that much. Treating GPs as money rather than essentially an arbitrary score-keeping unit is doomed to nonsense from the start.But Gold is much more common for them. Supply and Demand works for money like everything else.

Jayabalard
2008-09-12, 04:11 PM
*Take 10 check is 17, so about 17sp per two weeks. Multiply by 26 for SP per year, so 442sp/year. 5 years gives a lower range of 221, 7 years gives an upper range of 309.4. For the useless ones, we take 365sp/year, times five (182.5gp) or seven (255.5gp).Two problems with your math: Slaves aren't nearly as productive as freemen and you're also not factoring in the cost of keeping the slave; I'd say cut the productivity by half or more (maybe they get to "Take 1" instead of "take 10") and then factor in money at least for food, and you should probably factor in something to cover the cost of the space that they are using.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 04:16 PM
Two problems with your math: Slaves aren't nearly as productive as freemen and you're also not factoring in the cost of keeping the slave; I'd say cut the productivity by half or more (maybe they get to "Take 1" instead of "take 10") and then factor in money at least for food, and you should probably factor in something to cover the cost of the space that they are using.commoners, IIRC, live on 1 SP a day. Yes, you have to pay for the Overseer as well, but that shouldn't be much per slave, especially with magical compulsions that can make them work harder than free men. That's why I only multiplied my production by 5, rather than 7.

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 04:21 PM
Disturbing thread is disturbing.

- AF

Jayabalard
2008-09-12, 04:53 PM
magical compulsions that can make them work harder than free men. Sorry, but I'll have to disagree; I don't agree that a magical compulsion can make them more productive, and any magical compulsion that is even close is going to cost more money than you can earn out a slave, so you lose money.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-12, 04:55 PM
Sorry, but I'll have to disagree; I don't agree that a magical compulsion can make them more productive, and any magical compulsion that is even close is going to cost more money than you can earn out a slave, so you lose money.Depends on whether or not you have it as a spell or as a trap, or if you can cast it yourself. And how would magic not make them work harder?

tyckspoon
2008-09-12, 05:09 PM
What magic would you suggest be used? Low-level spells would be the most practical (especially since by the time you can try to apply Dominate or stronger effects, you probably have more efficient ways than humanoid slaves to get things done), but they don't really work for it. Try Charming all your slaves every day, because it only lasts an hour/level: They get a will save. If they fail, they now consider you their best friend.. and the spell either breaks or offers another save if you ask them to do anything inconsistent with being their friend. Like.. doing slave labor. Or whipping them. That's threatening them, right there; spell ends.

Maybe Suggestion; you can try casting that at the start of the day's labor and Suggest they perform whatever task you need done. That also lasts an hour/level.. say you get a level 10 or so casting level on it to give you a decent work-day. Still gets that will save in, and it's a level 3 Wiz spell/level 2 Bard. For hired casting, that's going to completely destroy your profits. Charged magic item? Considering how many times you're going to have to cast it, still not worth the price. The only way using magic is economically feasible is abusing the trap rules.. or casting the spell yourself on a very low number of slaves. But if you're a spellcaster, again, you can probably get better servants without going through the hassle of slavery.

Although if you *can* get away with using the trap rules, you could make your slave operation much more efficient. Use traps of Bull's Strength/Bear's Endurance to make your slaves work better.. or, nonsensically but in accordance with the skill rules, Owl's Wisdom to improve their Profession checks.

Yakk
2008-09-12, 11:13 PM
Ah -- keeping a commoner in food/clothing is 1 sp a day? Then I underpriced the cost of keeping the slave. I'd say half a commoner, or 5 cp per day, or about about 18 gp per year per slave to keep them fed/etc.

Using Mark Hall's numbers:
Trained slaves: 220-310gp, minus 5-7 years of upkeep.
Poor slaves: 180-255 gp, minus 5-7 years of upkeep.

Now, you don't keep a trained slave at half commoner upkeep and expect full return. So we'll assume that the trained slave upkeep costs scale.

7 years = 140 gp, reducing the value of a poor slave to 90 to 120 gp, or about 50% of the income. Do the same for a trained slave, and we get:
110 gp to 155 gp.

Cut another 20% off the price of untrained slaves to factor in overseer costs, giving us 70 gp to 100 gp.

Use the upper limit for both cases.

Purchase Price of Untrained Slave in FR: ~100 gp each (level 1, no profitable skills)

Purchase Price of a Trained Slave in FR: ~150 gp each (level 2, with profession skills)

EvilElitest
2008-09-12, 11:20 PM
The thing is, it depends on the culture in question your selling too. American slavery was quite profitable, because slaves were needed on teh large plantations (true in teh West Indies as well). However, if this is more like the American north pre abolition, or all of america pre Cottin Gin, then it is different, there isn't nearly as much demand, but those who do want slaves will pay a lot for them (like in England during that time period). If your thinking more Roman slavery, then it is very much based upon their skills, qualities, and the set prices at the time. What kind of slavery are we talking here?
from
EE

Paragon Badger
2008-09-12, 11:47 PM
Mark Hall has it about right. His numbers are close to what slaves cost in the United States around 1700. The price of slaves when up. Slaves have been sold for over 1,000 dollars. If you want a good read about American history, slavery and the transition from indentured servents to slaves. I recomend Edmond Morgen's American Freedom American Slavery. When westerners think about slavery thay usualy think of two different kinds. Slavery in the Americas (yes plural not exclusive to the U.S.) and the Jewish inslavment by Egyptians.

For D&D replace pounds stirling, or dollars, with GP. I honestly think the poster who suggested 1-3 GP for a slave, are being obsurd. A light horse is 75gp, a heavy horse is 200gp. A good work horse would be a heavy horse 200gp. A bit and bridle is 2gp. How can you claim a slave is 1-3gp? That doesnt even come close to paying for the costs of capture, care, and transportation of the slave. Slaves are expencive. IF it wasnt there would be no profit in slave traiding or having them. The OPs idea of making the value of the slaves apart of the cost of the loot is right. Slaves are property. They are a commodity. The slaver would have their value listed right next to the other items he had for sale.

If 99% of a D&D world is level 1, then a single gold piece is years of hard work for the average person. Aristocrats get, what 4d4 x 10 gp at level 1?

After level 1, wealth levels just get obscene. A horse costing 200 gp is absurd in an agriculture-based society when you consider what commoners and experts make. D&D has little in the way of consistency on this matter, with half of the material contradicting the other half. :smalltongue:

snoopy13a
2008-09-13, 06:21 PM
If 99% of a D&D world is level 1, then a single gold piece is years of hard work for the average person. Aristocrats get, what 4d4 x 10 gp at level 1?

After level 1, wealth levels just get obscene. A horse costing 200 gp is absurd in an agriculture-based society when you consider what commoners and experts make. D&D has little in the way of consistency on this matter, with half of the material contradicting the other half. :smalltongue:

Actually, horses were very expensive in some ancient societies. Being able to own a horse essentially marked one as being upper-class. For example, the Equestrian Order in ancient Rome. The average land-holding farmer wouldn't be able to afford a horse and instead served as infantry in the miltia (e.g. legionarre or hoplite).

Hallavast
2008-09-13, 06:42 PM
Considering slaves in FR can be used for fighting or even using magic in addition to skilled/unskilled labor, the price of slaves should scale with the training and abilities of the slave in question. Considering the economy and general culture of the realms, skilled or trained slaves should cost (on average) about the same as a riding horse, whereas unskilled laborers may perhaps be priced at half that. There should also probably be a mechanic to consider a higher price for higher level slaves as well.

Mark Hall
2008-09-14, 02:46 PM
Two problems with your math: Slaves aren't nearly as productive as freemen and you're also not factoring in the cost of keeping the slave; I'd say cut the productivity by half or more (maybe they get to "Take 1" instead of "take 10") and then factor in money at least for food, and you should probably factor in something to cover the cost of the space that they are using.

In general, no, but freemen also tend to have Skill Foci in their main skill... it represents another six silver a month to have that feat, and when you're not carving up bad guys, that's good money. This marks slaves as being less productive (since you're not assuming they've put special effort into being good with their skills, as a Skill Focus would indicate)

As for costs of maintaining them, those aren't easy to lay out, and I don't think they would necessarily be counted into how valuable a slave is.

Mark Hall
2008-09-14, 02:48 PM
Actually, horses were very expensive in some ancient societies. Being able to own a horse essentially marked one as being upper-class. For example, the Equestrian Order in ancient Rome. The average land-holding farmer wouldn't be able to afford a horse and instead served as infantry in the miltia (e.g. legionarre or hoplite).

However, that was prior to the invention of the horse collar, which made horses economical to keep for work, instead of just riding. Horses became a lot cheaper once they could be used for work (oddly enough).

bosssmiley
2008-09-15, 03:59 AM
"Calimport" (downloadable from the WOTC site last I looked) has prices for slaves in the FR setting.

celestialkin
2008-09-15, 04:37 AM
Also, for further moral dillemma, you might also want to consider the price of setting those freed slaves up with a new life.

If it really a good (exalted) act to free slaves and leave them with nothing but their freedom? Maybe the PCs should also have to spend their hard-earned loot on buying these slaves food, clothes, and lodging long enough for them to get honest work.

If not, I might even have the PCs run into these slaves again later--having either turned to crime and prostitution due to being completely destitute after being freed, or having become voluntairily reenslaved to avoid starving to death with no skills and no job.

For turly exalted characters, freeing slaves shouldn't be enough unless they have homes and jobs waiting for them--and an easy way to get back to them.


Or the PCs can offer the former slaves the option of remaining with them as followers.

Mark Hall
2008-09-15, 08:19 AM
"Calimport" (downloadable from the WOTC site last I looked) has prices for slaves in the FR setting.

Where? The closest I could find was a reward of 100gp per slave returned when working for the syl-pasha.

bosssmiley
2008-09-15, 01:25 PM
Where? The closest I could find was a reward of 100gp per slave returned when working for the syl-pasha.

You're right. Maybe I was thinking Al-Qadim. :smallredface:

"Lords of Madness" suggested a typical sale price for skilled slaves of CR(squared)x100gp in the Neogi chapter.

The "Glory of Rome" book for 2E also listed slave prices, but that was in denarii, rather than in D&D GP.

Homebrew slave prices by Kismet here (http://www.kismetrose.com/dnd/MySlaveCosts.html).

Draig
2008-09-15, 02:22 PM
well instead of worrying about what the work they can do is. if you REALLY wanted to cut back the parties treausre and say i dont know start with a new slate. You could have THEM be captured and become slaves or something themselves and have to work to find a way out. Clearly after having their wealth and supplies taken from them and moved. Just like in roman days. ANYONE can become a slave. Just like (as shown by the slave rebellions) a slave can become ANYONE.

Just my 2cp

Mark Hall
2008-09-16, 10:16 AM
"Lords of Madness" suggested a typical sale price for skilled slaves of CR(squared)x100gp in the Neogi chapter.

Not bad, though it breaks with 1st level NPC classes (who have a 1/2 or less CR, so would then be worth 25gp... or even smaller).

celestialkin
2008-09-16, 03:40 PM
Not bad, though it breaks with 1st level NPC classes (who have a 1/2 or less CR, so would then be worth 25gp... or even smaller).

Well, that seems reasonable I guess.

According to the 3.5 DMG a lv.1 mercenary works for 2sp a day, while a lv.1 crafter works for 3sp a day. Paying 25gp for the merc would equal having played for for 125 days of his/her service, and paying the crafter for 83 days of his/her service. Also consider that these slaves are being sold in the Underdark by the Neogi, and are probably expected to be worked to death, or something similar (Mind Flayer soup anyone?), so neither the seller/captor or buyer are really planning a life-time service out of these guys.

bosssmiley
2008-09-17, 07:37 AM
Not bad, though it breaks with 1st level NPC classes (who have a 1/2 or less CR, so would then be worth 25gp... or even smaller).

LoM specifies an absolute minimum price of 100gp, but I think that's a bit silly.
What could be more fitting than CR-fractional Kobolds and Gnomes being the chump change of the slave world? :smallbiggrin:

Mark Hall
2008-09-17, 10:00 AM
Well, that seems reasonable I guess.

According to the 3.5 DMG a lv.1 mercenary works for 2sp a day, while a lv.1 crafter works for 3sp a day. Paying 25gp for the merc would equal having played for for 125 days of his/her service, and paying the crafter for 83 days of his/her service. Also consider that these slaves are being sold in the Underdark by the Neogi, and are probably expected to be worked to death, or something similar (Mind Flayer soup anyone?), so neither the seller/captor or buyer are really planning a life-time service out of these guys.

Perhaps in the Underdark economy, that makes sense... the slaves are food and tools in a fairly robust economy, and having all evil masters means that their value as lives is nothing, only their value as tools. It's also an economy without opposition... meaning there are very few Underdark Abolitionist movements, not that there are no opponents in the Underdark.

I think, however, in a surface economy, with a variety of alignments being important (because its not just the alignment of the buyer and seller, but the alignment of everyone who might touch... or torch... the slave trade), the more expensive price of 5-7 years of labor is more reasonable. Slave raids have consequences, and if you only raid into places without consequences (i.e. barbarian areas without the means to resist), you generally get inferior slave stock for your needs... slaves that need to be taught everything, including large parts of civilization.