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View Full Version : What WotC thinks of those who don't agree with 4E



Xion_Anistu-san
2008-09-12, 12:23 PM
Just wanted to say I am completely disgusted by the latest cartoon on the Wizards.com site regarding people who don't like 4E. I refer to this:

Red Dragon Interview (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/toon/20080910a)

Equating those of us who don't like 4E to trolls is quite a stretch. And then to see what happens to said troll, it just goes to show what they really think of people who don't agree with them. We, the same people who bought all their 3.0 and then 3.5 materials for years as the prices of their books went up and up as the content got less and less (i.e. less print and more color/ art). The millions of fans and players who faithfuly play the product they made that put food on their tables and houses over their heads. The first insult--4E-- was bad enough, but to come out with this ... that is too much for me. After seeing this, I would tend to agree with a T-shirt that appalled one of the staff from GenCon that said "4E killed Gary Gygax!"

I hope 4E tanks and Hasbro has to sell D&D off to someone else. The Hasbro financials don't lie; it's not doing well. Then they can sack everyone who was instrumental in pushing 4E (Bill Slavicseck, I'm looking at you!) and get back to fixing the issues with 3.5 and giving us good, solid and supported content once again.

Until then, I'm sticking with 3.5 and I will never buy a new D&D book as long as WotC owns it.

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 12:27 PM
Ugh. Not this AGAIN.

From another board:

...That video 'insults' 4E players more than it does 3E, with the annoying sycophantic kobold, FFS. The 3E grognard shows up for about 15 seconds comparatively.

I personally thought it was somewhat amusing. WotC's actually making fun of themselves too, as the money-grubbing dragon that doesn't care for its fans. When you insult everyone all around, including yourself, it's rarely meant to mock so much as tell everyone involved to stop taking themselves so seriously and lighten up a bit. I like a company that can laugh at its own image.


I thought it was funny. Every party is portrayed negatively during that whole little skit. Lighten up guys. They had the trolls, the devotees, the company being fat and lazy... Come on... Really, do you need to be so up-tight and use this as just another excuse to get mad at the company?



And honestly, just because they insulted themselves in there, it doesn't make it any different, because they're just being juvenile.

Yes, it does. It removes malicious intent entirely, unless you're suggesting that the company as a whole is self-loathing and thus the video represents their views on everyone honestly. Whine about it not being funny, sure; it was hardly the height of humor. But don't start taking umbrage where none was intended.

TL;DR Summary: Don't take umbrage where none was intended, good grief.

Starsinger
2008-09-12, 12:29 PM
Red Dragon Interview (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/toon/20080910a)

Equating those of us who don't like 4E to trolls is quite a stretch. And then to see what happens to said troll, it just goes to show what they really think of people who don't agree with them. We, the same people who bought all their 3.0 and then 3.5 materials for years as the prices of their books went up and up as the content got less and less (i.e. less print and more color/ art). The millions of fans and players who faithfuly play the product they made that put food on their tables and houses over their heads. The first insult--4E-- was bad enough, but to come out with this ... that is too much for me. After seeing this, I would tend to agree with a T-shirt that appalled one of the staff from GenCon that said "4E killed Gary Gygax!"


I think you're being over sensitive. The Troll is saying things like "ZOMFG MONEY GRAB!" "GNO GNOMES IN 4E!!11" "Y U IS NEED MINIS" I'm fairly certain people with actual, intelligent reasons to dislike 4e are not included in the puntastic Troll comparison.

Spiryt
2008-09-12, 12:30 PM
It looks that those guys are really getting infantile :smallbiggrin:

Or (more probably) it's just marketing - make 4ed kids feel superior, and sell more.

Seriously, taking this serious isn't healthy. It's just video, and doesn't mean that they don't care about critique.

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 12:31 PM
It looks that those guys are really getting infantile :smallbiggrin:

Or (more probably) it's just marketing - make 4ed kids feel superior, and sell more.

I'm sure the 4E players feel SO superior being portrayed as sycophant kobolds. Hasbro/WotC must think they're the best things ever, showing themselves as a randomly defecating, greedy, lazy dragon.

*eyeroll*

I swear the way people react to publishers make me feel like I'm in the middle of a video game forum hearing the Micro$oft Xbots, Nintendrone, and Sony Failstation wars all over again.

AmberVael
2008-09-12, 12:38 PM
You know, I don't think it is so much making fun of everyone equally so much as it is just kinda lame. That's the real problem with it- I can forgive someone insulting my most dear beliefs if they do it in a hilarious manner (even if it isn't really true- but it's even funnier when it is), but the entire video was just kinda "bleh" to me, so the parts that mocked my views just came off as insulting and nothing more, even if they WERE making a parody of everyone.
I'd feel insulted if I were ANYONE depicted in it. Moral is- if you do satire, make it funny.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-09-12, 12:38 PM
J
I hope 4E tanks and Hasbro has to sell D&D off to someone else.

It's a cartoon making fun of everyone. I mean, come on. Do you honestly put yourself in with the troll? Namely, the group that is either A- Trying to purpousefully stir up flame wars and the like in a "CRY MORE" fashion, or B- Dismisses 4E over incredibly flimsy pretexts and rages about how they hate DnD and it should die?

If you're in group A, then GTFO. If you're in group B, congrats, they have you pegged squarely with that one. If you don't consider yourself in either group, then why are you taking it so personally?

In the end, I'll just agree with everyone else that this cartoon makes fun of everyone and you shouldn't take it seriously. I belong with the torched PC's myself. :smalltongue: XP! XP! XP! XP! XP!

its_all_ogre
2008-09-12, 12:42 PM
really if anyone actually feels massively offended by this how do you survive on the internet

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 12:45 PM
I'd feel insulted if I were ANYONE depicted in it. Moral is- if you do satire, make it funny.

You're not, though. Or at least, I'd hope you're not.

Lambast it for being unfunny all you want, but there's simply no sense in taking offense when they're satirizing themselves at the same time. I didn't see myself as any of the groups in the video, possibly because I am not WotC, I have an open mind to 4E and I like 3E. Or maybe I was the kobold just for keeping an open mind. I've mocked myself worse than that, sure, I'll pretend to play sycophant in a satire.

I don't care! It's a flash cartoon with no malicious intent!

Artanis
2008-09-12, 12:52 PM
Just wanted to say I am completely disgusted by the latest cartoon on the Wizards.com site regarding people who don't like 4E. I refer to this:

Red Dragon Interview (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/toon/20080910a)

Equating those of us who don't like 4E to trolls is quite a stretch. And then to see what happens to said troll, it just goes to show what they really think of people who don't agree with them. We, the same people who bought all their 3.0 and then 3.5 materials for years as the prices of their books went up and up as the content got less and less (i.e. less print and more color/ art). The millions of fans and players who faithfuly play the product they made that put food on their tables and houses over their heads. The first insult--4E-- was bad enough, but to come out with this ... that is too much for me. After seeing this, I would tend to agree with a T-shirt that appalled one of the staff from GenCon that said "4E killed Gary Gygax!"

I hope 4E tanks and Hasbro has to sell D&D off to someone else. The Hasbro financials don't lie; it's not doing well. Then they can sack everyone who was instrumental in pushing 4E (Bill Slavicseck, I'm looking at you!) and get back to fixing the issues with 3.5 and giving us good, solid and supported content once again.

Until then, I'm sticking with 3.5 and I will never buy a new D&D book as long as WotC owns it.
Oh FFS, not this again.

We went through this with the Tiefling and Gnome interview.

IT. IS. SUPPOSED. TO. BE. FUNNY.

If you don't think it's funny, then fine. That doesn't mean they're attacking you. It's like somebody watching The King of Queens and shouting "OMG THEY'RE INSULTING FAT PEOPLE CALLING FAT PEOPLE STUPID! I'LL NEVER WATCH THE NETWORK AGAIN AND I HOPE IT TANKS!"

Yakk
2008-09-12, 12:54 PM
What, WotC thinks that those who don't agree with 4e have a sense of humor?

AmberVael
2008-09-12, 12:57 PM
Lambast it for being unfunny all you want, but there's simply no sense in taking offense when they're satirizing themselves at the same time.

I don't give it much weight- I know it is a parody, I know they didn't mean to insult anyone with it, not really. But at the same time, it's like someone just saying something that totally hits you wrong, even when you know what they're trying to say. You dismiss it- but it still feels irritating, you know?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-12, 01:18 PM
I think some people need to develop a natural armor bonus.

TheThan
2008-09-12, 02:10 PM
Ok lets look at this:
Clearly thereíre a lot of symbolism here.


The dragon:

Big
Lazy
Rich
Eats orphans
Thinks its superior to everyone else
Doesnít care about those smaller than it

A lot like, WOTC huh


The Forum Troll

Lives on the Internet
Have several specific complaints about 4E
Gets crapped on my the dragon


Notice how that video has a lot more to say about themselves, as a company and people than they do about others.

thegurullamen
2008-09-12, 02:21 PM
I agree with AstralFire, we should all take umbrage here because WotC thinks they're better than us.

DM Raven
2008-09-12, 02:32 PM
This thread seems a bit pointless...

I'm just saying...

Zeta Kai
2008-09-12, 02:34 PM
I'm a diehard 3.X fan & anti-4E as anyone, but I was not insulted by this cartoon. It's cute, it's kinda funny, & it's well animated (Adam Philips, you rock, good sir).

d00d, SRSLY, it's just a cartoon, & it rips on WotC & their rabid fanbase more than anyone else. To only see the troll & get offended about that is taking things out of context & missing a large chunk of the point.

I agree with the OP one a number of issues, but this just isn't one of them.

Epinephrine
2008-09-12, 02:40 PM
I'll agree that the video was incredibly lame.
It swings and misses at being funny.

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-12, 02:45 PM
What, WotC thinks that those who don't agree with 4e have a sense of humor?

I KNOW! Its terribly offensive, just going about assuming I have a sense of humor, or thinking that I won't CARE what a massive faceless corporation says about a vague group of people who may or may not include me!? The sheer indignit-

Wait? Whats that? Mac posted another commercial implying windows users are middle aged accountants!?

I'LL HAVE THEIR THROATS!

BY WHICH I MEAN POST ANGRY WORDS ON AN OBSCURE MESSAGE BOARD!

DM Raven
2008-09-12, 02:56 PM
I KNOW! Its terribly offensive, just going about assuming I have a sense of humor, or thinking that I won't CARE what a massive faceless corporation says about a vague group of people who may or may not include me!? The sheer indignit-

Wait? Whats that? Mac posted another commercial implying windows users are middle aged accountants!?

I'LL HAVE THEIR THROATS!

BY WHICH I MEAN POST ANGRY WORDS ON AN OBSCURE MESSAGE BOARD!

Family Guy's Carter Pewterschmidt:
Haaaaaah

Da Beast
2008-09-12, 03:28 PM
Every side of every debate has a few idiot trolls on it. 4e is no exception and there's no problem with wizards poking some fun at them. Seriously, that troll was on the screen for about 15 seconds while the dragon and its sycophantic idolizers were mocked for nearly the entire video. If this really offended you than you need to toughen up. You'll run into much worse in the world than someone poking fun at the internet debate about a role playing game.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-12, 04:27 PM
I think people notice the troll the most because it's the funniest element of the animation.

Apart from what, what (almost) everyone said - this cartoon is not supposed to offend anyone.

On a side note... Wizards' cartoons could really use subtitles. It's hard to understand what characters are saying sometimes.

Knaight
2008-09-12, 04:51 PM
I really don't see where that particular complaint is coming from. I could see "its incredibly stupid", but it basically insults everybody while being incredibly stupid.

TheThan
2008-09-12, 04:58 PM
Itís not that I canít take a little criticism or a joke. Itís that this video was obnoxious and rude (and not that funny to begin with). It says that ALL gamers that arenít giving WOTC high praise for 4E are forum trolls that deserve to be crapped on.

That offends forum trolls everywhere. Not to mention the gamers who donít wish to make the switch. It shows what WOTC really thinks about those who donít blindly buy their stuff. They may try to disguise it as comedy in a cartoon, but it doesnít really change the fact that they donít like people who donít buy their products. Despite the fact that most of these people (more than likely) have spend several hundred dollars on their previous edition.

Wizards of the coast has shown very little in the way of maturity. Itís like if Microsoft made an announcement that everyone who didnít use/like windows are big fat doodoo heads.


The difference between this cartoon and a Mac commercial is that the Macintosh is trying to convince people that their product is cooler, more laid back and hipper (more hip?) than Microsoftís product. In other words, theyíre trying to boost sale.
This cartoon is just an angry backlash attack at those vocal people who donít like/wonít buy 4.0. Sure it probably stems from forum trolls, but it is still an out right attack on their own customers.

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 05:01 PM
Itís not that I canít take a little criticism or a joke. Itís that this video was obnoxious and rude (and not that funny to begin with). It says that ALL gamers that arenít giving WOTC high praise for 4E are forum trolls that deserve to be crapped on.

And that those that are, are mindless sycophants that... get crapped on and like it. Yes, this is obviously how they really feel about EVERYONE. Highly successful companies know that the way to continue their success is to attack everyone in the entire world including themselves.


That offends forum trolls everywhere. Not to mention the gamers who donít wish to make the switch. It shows what WOTC really thinks about those who donít blindly buy their stuff. They may try to disguise it as comedy in a cartoon, but it doesnít really change the fact that they donít like people who donít buy their products.

No. Those "WotC reveals itself more than it does its critics?" thing? That was kind of intentional on their part, you didn't hit some big funny ironic insight. Did you think they had themselves as a dragon that ate babies accidentally? They were mocking themselves. Really, you're reading what you want to see in it. No more, no less.

Thinker
2008-09-12, 05:04 PM
lol cry more.

EvilElitest
2008-09-12, 05:07 PM
is it just me or the people who say they like 4E saying it isn't important and the people who don't like 4E acting offended? haven't watched it yet to determine its content, just making a comment
from
EE

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 05:09 PM
is it just me or the people who say they like 4E saying it isn't important and the people who don't like 4E acting offended? haven't watched it yet to determine its content, just making a comment
from
EE

It's just you. Zeta Kai doesn't like 4E and I am very slightly positive towards it. I don't even remember the name of a single power in 4E, all I know is that I have a namesake feat. Haven't had the time to really get into it.

AslanCross
2008-09-12, 05:25 PM
I think you're being over sensitive. The Troll is saying things like "ZOMFG MONEY GRAB!" "GNO GNOMES IN 4E!!11" "Y U IS NEED MINIS" I'm fairly certain people with actual, intelligent reasons to dislike 4e are not included in the puntastic Troll comparison.

This is exactly why I found it funny. (For the record I like both 3.5 and 4E)

TheThan
2008-09-12, 05:30 PM
And that those that are, are mindless sycophants that... get crapped on and like it. Yes, this is obviously how they really feel about EVERYONE. Highly successful companies know that the way to continue their success is to attack everyone in the entire world including themselves.



No. Those "WotC reveals itself more than it does its critics?" thing? That was kind of intentional on their part, you didn't hit some big funny ironic insight. Did you think they had themselves as a dragon that ate babies accidentally? They were mocking themselves. Really, you're reading what you want to see in it. No more, no less.

You sort of missed it. The person that got crapped on turned into a mindless sycophant (he was a human at first, then turned into a lizard dude). Indicating that once you try their crap, youíll never want to try something else. According to the cartoon they think even their worst products are of such great quality and so much better than their competition; they can produce crap material and people will blindly buy it. Even though it looks like their heads are so far into the clouds that they canít see any.

As for the orphanage part, that was more than likely the artistís/animatorís opinion getting mixed in the cartoon. As nothing else in the cartoon would indicate that they are making fun of themselves.

No I was not that angered or offended by it. Iím just interpreting it.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-12, 05:35 PM
You sort of missed it. The person that got crapped on turned into a mindless sycophant (he was a human at first, then turned into a lizard dude). Indicating that once you try their crap, youíll never want to try something else. According to the cartoon they think even their worst products are of such great quality and so much better than their competition; they can produce crap material and people will blindly buy it. Even though it looks like their heads are so far into the clouds that they canít see any.

Heh, you missed that one.

The paladin was polishing his cart when the dragon crapped on it (alluding to the "I just washed that!" sort of comedy). The Kobold sycophant had been eaten by the dragon, but not fully digested. That's why he jumps up and shouts "I'm the chosen one!" and runs off - he alone had survived being eaten and digested by his God. :smalltongue:

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 05:35 PM
You sort of missed it. The person that got crapped on turned into a mindless sycophant (he was a human at first, then turned into a lizard dude). Indicating that once you try their crap, youíll never want to try something else. According to the cartoon they think even their worst products are of such great quality and so much better than their competition; they can produce crap material and people will blindly buy it. Even though it looks like their heads are so far into the clouds that they canít see any.

If you watch that and you -honestly- think that that's supposed to be their honest-to-God view of themselves, then wow.


As for the orphanage part, that was more than likely the artistís/animatorís opinion getting mixed in the cartoon. As nothing else in the cartoon would indicate that they are making fun of themselves.

You know, except for the just mentioned part. Or how the reporter is getting sacrificed to the evil dragon.

Kizara
2008-09-12, 05:48 PM
I am disgusted by/anti-4e. I found the video a bit hard to follow and only a bit funny, but hardly offensive. I would be more offended if I was a strong wotc-board posting diehard fan I think.

Crow
2008-09-12, 06:02 PM
I am having trouble trying to determine exactly what the point of this video actually was...

That said, I can see how some could make the stretch that WotC assumes ALL the people who dislike 4e are "trolls".

Knaight
2008-09-12, 06:04 PM
I am disgusted by/anti-4e. I found the video a bit hard to follow and only a bit funny, but hardly offensive. I would be more offended if I was a strong wotc-board posting diehard fan I think.

Same thing here. Well not disgusted by, and I didn't find it funny at all. This goes into the incredibly stupid category. And the third edition thing was Wotc saying that they failed horribly making it, that and they mocked themselves as greedy money lovers.

mayonase
2008-09-12, 06:09 PM
Can't we all just agree that the Mindflayer video was hilarious and move on?

TheThan
2008-09-12, 06:10 PM
If you watch that and you -honestly- think that that's supposed to be their honest-to-God view of themselves, then wow.



You know, except for the just mentioned part. Or how the reporter is getting sacrificed to the evil dragon.


No, itís not what I honestly think. However I would imagine that there are at least a few people at WOTC who feel that way about their products. Face it, a lot of people donít like being told no one likes their product (or that their product stinks). Especially if said product is something youíve spent a lot of time and hard work on. Combine this with way too much arrogance and you end up with the conclusion I have previously drawn.

As far as the interviewer, well that was a kinda funny (would have been better if he picked his teeth with the pole).

As far as the paladin, I thought he was just a peasant myself. After watching it again, I did see the guyís legs sticking out after getting crapped on. Which deflates my previous argument.

Xion_Anistu-san
2008-09-12, 06:13 PM
The sycophantic kobolds, the lazy dragon and pile of gold, gems, etc. could be seen as funny (although lame) and over looked as symbolism rather easily. In all honesty, I didn't get that connection until this thread.

But, don't take umbrage where none was intended? With all the symbolism available to them, how does the 'gracious master' deal with the leetspeak? They used a troll getting poohed on. I just find it funny that the same people who wrote letters to a political blogger about his negative depiction of D&D players would come up with this kind of thing, self-depricating or not.

Posting this on the Wizards forums would have sparked a flame war, why do you think I posted this here? I was under the understanding that folks on these forums were a lot more open-minded to accept an opinion and some venting.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-12, 06:15 PM
Bear in mind, accepting an opinion and agreeing with it is not the same thing.

Xion_Anistu-san
2008-09-12, 06:17 PM
Bear in mind, accepting an opinion and agreeing with it is not the same thing.

Touche. :smallsmile:

OK gotta run for a date. See you all next week.

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 06:24 PM
The sycophantic kobolds, the lazy dragon and pile of gold, gems, etc. could be seen as funny (although lame) and over looked as symbolism rather easily. In all honesty, I didn't get that connection until this thread

But, don't take umbrage where none was intended? With all the symbolism available to them, how does the 'gracious master' deal with the leetspeak? They used a troll getting poohed on.

Which is also a negative image of themselves, which can hardly be unintentional as blatant as it is.


I just find it funny that the same people who wrote letters to a political blogger about his negative depiction of D&D players would come up with this kind of thing, self-depricating or not.

I will agree the political blogger thing was ridiculous.


Posting this on the Wizards forums would have sparked a flame war, why do you think I posted this here? I was under the understanding that folks on these forums were a lot more open-minded to accept an opinion and some venting.

Sorry, but I really don't care for extreme views in general. You're entitled to your opinion, but if you express it, I am entitled to counter it and attempt to moderate it.

Renegade Paladin
2008-09-12, 06:24 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/InternetBusiness.jpg

:smallsigh:

warmachine
2008-09-12, 06:29 PM
Does the red dragon's scandal of defecating on someone represent anything or is it just lame comedy?

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 06:31 PM
Does the red dragon's scandal of defecating on someone represent anything or is it just lame comedy?

Crapping on 3E players with the release of 4E. That's what they mean by 'last year's scandal.'

Renegade Paladin
2008-09-12, 06:31 PM
Does the red dragon's scandal of defecating on someone represent anything or is it just lame comedy?
Well, they... er... defecated all over we their customers with 4e, and before that by apparently firing all their editors in the last year of 3e products. Does that count? :smallamused:

Dode
2008-09-12, 06:34 PM
When you take your hobby more seriously then the people who's livelihoods depend on it, you might have a problem.

I don't really care for 4E, so I don't play it. Problem solved.

Trizap
2008-09-12, 06:42 PM
I think its clear what their response is.

I don't like it.

I don't like it all.

its not even funny.

its offensive to 3E people. I'm a 3E person.

FoE
2008-09-12, 06:43 PM
My opinion?

It wasn't quite as funny as "Tiefling and the Gnome."

Still, I liked the sycophants. I feel a strange kinship with those creatures ...

Zeful
2008-09-12, 06:49 PM
I hope 4E tanks and Hasbro has to sell D&D off to someone else.

They won't, the D&D name is too big and recognisable to sell. If 4e tanks then they miost likely mothball it. So if you don't like 4e (I liked the stuff they said they were doing but didn't do) then you hope for a brief success before 5e.

The Glyphstone
2008-09-12, 07:05 PM
That was funny. I liked it....and I haven't even played 4E yet, so I don't have any strong opinions.

Oslecamo
2008-09-12, 07:47 PM
You do realize tWotc has been insulting their customers for many years now.

Heck, just check the magicthegathering site. First it was just some joke here and there, but now they go around shouting freely:

"We don't really give a **** about our customers, as long as they keep buying our products! Hay for us! Now go out there and buy some more of our shiny stuff!"

Wich just shows how powerfull they've become.

White Wolf, on the other hand, likes to insult the people who don't play their game, wich may explain why they remain more in the obscurity.

AstralFire
2008-09-12, 07:56 PM
I think its clear what their response is.

I don't like it.

I don't like it all.

its not even funny.

its offensive to 3E people. I'm a 3E person.

Not all of us agree with you.

Get some thicker skin.

Oslecamo
2008-09-12, 08:03 PM
Not all of us agree with you.

Get some thicker skin.

Get some thinner skin. You seem to have become immune to words. That's no good.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-12, 08:10 PM
Get some thinner skin. You seem to have become immune to words. That's no good.


:confused:

Want to unpack that statement a bit?

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2008-09-12, 08:39 PM
Wow, someone didn't like it.

Look, with the portrayal of the troll hating 4e if you noticed how he was typing then you'd have logically come out to find it wasn't a jab at all the nay sayers. Just the nay saying extremists who boil down to internet trolls.
The entire cartoon, to me atleast, was nothing more than sattire on themselves as well as the D&D community, nothing more than a big joke. Or did you get offended at the gnome's, "I'm a monster, RAWR!" as well?

Raewyn
2008-09-12, 09:07 PM
Can't we all just agree that the Mindflayer video was hilarious and move on?

I second this motion.

Kizara
2008-09-12, 09:21 PM
I second this motion.

Link please?

Gavin Sage
2008-09-12, 09:31 PM
Yawn, yawn, serious business, yawn. That's diversionary tactics about maybe two levels above the ones WOTC used. I'm hardly raving foam mad over the cartoon, but I do think being insulted is justifiable.

See here's the thing, if I thought there wasn't malicious intent behind displaying 4e objectors as trolls I could laugh. Taking the specific objections and dumbing them down and then having them being spewed by a troll though is essentially refusing to treat the arguments as legitimate and then dismissing them as internet trash. That's not trying to be funny, thats being one-uping while pretending to be funny which is a difference.

I'm not terribly worked up since I happen to think WotC knew exactly the reactions 4e would get to begin with and decided as a corporation to not care because they were trying to expand the brand not play to its base.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-12, 09:41 PM
Link please?

Link'd! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/toon/20080401a)

Here's the link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drarch/toon) to all of the other animations, too. They're pretty funny, actually :smallbiggrin:

KBF
2008-09-12, 09:44 PM
I'm not terribly worked up since I happen to think WotC knew exactly the reactions 4e would get to begin with and decided as a corporation to not care because they were trying to expand the brand not play to its base.

First I have to say. I was deeply, deeply offended at how the dragon crapped on the kobolds, representing that WotC craps on it's loyal customer base.

Now, I don't think they didn't care that they weren't giving the player base what it wanted (which was apparently more useless supplements) because it wanted to expand the brand, they were already doing that (with aforementioned books). I think they didn't care what some of their players thought in the interest of making a better game. I am not argueing that they did, infact, make a better game. I'm saying that they took some risk to do what they thought was best for a dieing game.

And yes, dieing. 4e is much, much easier on newcomers, where 3e was... Well, I was a newcomer to 3e. I hated the experience. 3e itself was good but...

Kizara
2008-09-12, 09:50 PM
Meh, I actually thought the dragon one was the funniest.

The mindflayer wasn't bad though.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-12, 09:52 PM
Meh, I actually thought the dragon one was the funniest.

The mindflayer wasn't bad though.

Well, the mindflayer had his moments. I particularly liked the Dwarf (though the troll noting "I know HTML" was also pretty good).

And don't tell me you didn't smirk when the Gnome said "I'm a monster, rawr!" :smallbiggrin:

AmberVael
2008-09-12, 10:01 PM
You know, out of everything about that video, you know what I disliked the most?
It wasn't the mocking of the 4E haters.
It wasn't the portrayal of 4E as crap.
It wasn't how they made themselves a giant dragon who was greedy.
It wasn't even how the 4E fans were sycophants.

It was the voices of the sycophants. I mean dear god, I could barely understand a word they were saying. It was all too shrill for me, I guess. I have a terribly difficult time with accents or anything of the kind, and I found myself twiddling the volume knob up and down on my speaker trying to find a place where I could understand them and not be deafened by it.
They might have been funnier if I wasn't straining to figure out what was being said.

Kizara
2008-09-12, 10:06 PM
Well, the mindflayer had his moments. I particularly liked the Dwarf (though the troll noting "I know HTML" was also pretty good).

And don't tell me you didn't smirk when the Gnome said "I'm a monster, rawr!" :smallbiggrin:

I liked the tiefling having a superior European accent, it made me smile.

I also liked the gnome saying that and then getting eaten by the cube after.


Overall, I found the dragon one the most honest and least 'marketing ploy' of them all. Of course its a stunt, but I appreciated the tongue-in-cheek self-mocking of the whole thing. I appreciate it when people/organizations have a sense of humor about themselves.

horseboy
2008-09-13, 12:45 AM
Eh, mind flayer was the funniest of them, but that's really not saying much. It's like they've got old sit-com writers doing these things.

FoE
2008-09-13, 02:37 AM
The Beholder interview was pretty good, and the Mind Flayer interview had the most jokes. But Tiefling and the Gnome had the best moments.

"So I called my mom and I was like, 'Guess what?' And she was like 'What?' And I was like, 'I'M A MONSTER! RAWWWR!'"

"I looked dis bugbear right in da eye and was like, 'Bring it, Scruffy.'"

"Look! They gave me a minion! Say hello, Francis! Who's my minion? Who's my minion? YOU ARE!"

Eldmor
2008-09-13, 05:16 AM
Despite the public reaction, I've always found these 4e cartoons funny.
The troll's rant and the kobold cheer were defining for me. :smallbiggrin:

Capfalcon
2008-09-13, 03:55 PM
Honestly, I liked the gnome better, but the kobolds are a very close second.

Seriously, you can't really top, "Rawr, I'm a monster!"

The adventurers were pretty funny, though. "XP,XP,XP,XP,XP!"

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-13, 04:01 PM
The adventurers were pretty funny, though. "XP,XP,XP,XP,XP!"

Their final scream should have been "OMG! WTF! BBQ!" :smallbiggrin:

Dragor
2008-09-13, 04:30 PM
I found it hilarious. Maybe I'm just easy to please? Wizard mocked everyone and everything- even themselves- in the vid. Hate was distributed in even amounts. It's tongue in cheek.

turkishproverb
2008-09-13, 11:19 PM
And yes, dieing. 4e is much, much easier on newcomers, where 3e was... Well, I was a newcomer to 3e. I hated the experience. 3e itself was good but...

For now. After splats who knows.

Anyway, I'd actually be happiest if they kept 4E as D&D, provided The released a 3XE based Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 4E.

Edit: As to the video, well the Troll was depicted worse than the rest, if only by a little. probably programmer bias of a fashion.

Thurbane
2008-09-13, 11:35 PM
I'm a staunch 3.5 supporter, and I didn't find the cartoon particularly offensive.

I did find it amusing (and somewhat accurate) that WotC sees itself as a huge, avaricious beast that craps all over it's fan base. :smallbiggrin:

Vortling
2008-09-14, 12:26 AM
Every time they come out with one of these videos I keep wondering what WotC is thinking. The comedy in all of them is just so clinical and poorly delivered that I wonder how the writer keeps his job. Then I'm always wondering why they think putting them out is a good idea. I mean look at the pointless discussion it's caused here.

JaxGaret
2008-09-14, 01:02 AM
I read the first page of this thread, didn't see this mentioned, and I think it merits saying:

What the troll was writing was, get this - TROLLING.

No Gnomes in 4e? You can play a Gnome PC.

Have to use miniatures? Not necessary, but highly recommended, just like earlier editions.

Just a moneygrab? Not only do those of us who like 4e think the new edition is well worth the investment, and therefore not a moneygrab, but the majority of 4e bashers are bashing 4e because they prefer 3e - which had its own "moneygrab" in the form of 3.5.


So all of the things the Troll was posting were actual trolling posts. They weren't representing "people who don't like 4e". They were representing TROLLS on internet forums.

The only people who should be offended in any way by this video are anti-4e trolls, 4e fanboys, or elitist WotC employees.

Dode
2008-09-14, 01:08 AM
I read the first page of this thread, didn't see this mentioned, and I think it merits saying:

What the troll was writing was, get this - TROLLING.
I think my snark suppression unit just exploded

Knaight
2008-09-14, 01:15 AM
Certainly a small explosion going from the post.

Crow
2008-09-14, 01:20 AM
I read the first page of this thread, didn't see this mentioned, and I think it merits saying:

What the troll was writing was, get this - TROLLING.

No Gnomes in 4e? You can play a Gnome PC.

Have to use miniatures? Not necessary, but highly recommended, just like earlier editions.

Just a moneygrab? Not only do those of us who like 4e think the new edition is well worth the investment, and therefore not a moneygrab, but the majority of 4e bashers are bashing 4e because they prefer 3e - which had its own "moneygrab" in the form of 3.5.

So all of the things the Troll was posting were actual trolling posts. They weren't representing "people who don't like 4e". They were representing TROLLS on internet forums.

The only people who should be offended in any way by this video are anti-4e trolls, 4e fanboys, or elitist WotC employees.

Yes, but it can give the impression that WotC is calling all of the people who dislike 4e "trolls"...marginalizing their opinions.

While I think the cartoon is stupid for many reasons, being offended isn't one of them. I can understand how somebody could be, though.

Diamondeye
2008-09-14, 03:20 PM
I was more offended at the amount of time it took to watch it for practically no amusement value, than any message it may have contained.

Neo
2008-09-14, 03:33 PM
tbh it did come across as a bash on the people who complained about 4e, as the troll posts were the most common doubts and complaints about 4e that i've heard online and in person.

I'd probably be in the 'oh it was nothing' crowd but i've heard a few things on similar lines from WoTC guys on 4e Forgotten Realms stuff, pretty much flat out stating the good old WoTC policy of 'we know best'.

Zaphrasz
2008-09-14, 03:48 PM
It is actually pretty funny. Not the troll in particular, but the constant echoing of "we love you!"

I am a 3.5 guy. I think fourth edition was unnecessary, and includes mechanics that I dislike. I didn't think the troll portion was funny, but neither will I consider it terribly offensive. It was kind of irritating to be dismissed and straw maned like that, but it isn't something I will lose sleep over.

Artanis
2008-09-14, 05:17 PM
tbh it did come across as a bash on the people who complained about 4e, as the troll posts were the most common doubts and complaints about 4e that i've heard online and in person.
Not really.

Some common doubts:
"I do not like that it appears to put more emphasis on minis. It seems like somewhat of a ploy to get us to buy their minis, and while there are obvious, easy ways to avoid buying minis, it can still be a pain to keep track of them during hectic combat."

The video:
"it requires minis? OMG U CANT BE SURIUZ!!!111"


Those don't sound particularly similar to me.

JaxGaret
2008-09-14, 06:59 PM
Yes, but it can give the impression that WotC is calling all of the people who dislike 4e "trolls"...marginalizing their opinions.

Only if you misinterpret it.


It was kind of irritating to be dismissed and straw maned like that, but it isn't something I will lose sleep over.

Except that you weren't dismissed or straw manned. As I stated before, the troll was only a representation of actual trolls, not just people who don't like 4e.

Also, what Artanis just said.

Starsinger
2008-09-14, 07:06 PM
tbh it did come across as a bash on the people who complained about 4e, as the troll posts were the most common doubts and complaints about 4e that i've heard online and in person.

They were also, as pointed out by others, wrong.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-09-14, 08:31 PM
So all of the things the Troll was posting were actual trolling posts. They weren't representing "people who don't like 4e". They were representing TROLLS on internet forums.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this troll the sole representation of those who dislike 4e? I think it's a valid concern that this would make it into a broad generalization that all who dislike 4e are simply trolls.

JaxGaret
2008-09-14, 08:42 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong

You are wrong.


, but wasn't this troll the sole representation of those who dislike 4e?

The sycophantic fanboy Kobolds were also the sole representation of those who like 4e.


I think it's a valid concern that this would make it into a broad generalization that all who dislike 4e are simply trolls.

So it follows by your logic that it's also a valid concern that this would make it into a broad generalization that all who like 4e are simply sycophantic fanboys? And that this would make it into a broad generalization that WotC is simply an all-greedy all-defecating all-consuming entity?

No.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-09-14, 08:57 PM
So it follows by your logic that it's also a valid concern that this would make it into a broad generalization that all who like 4e are simply sycophantic fanboys? And that this would make it into a broad generalization that WotC is simply an all-greedy all-defecating all-consuming entity?
Yes.

By the same thought process, of course.


No.
Could you please explain how the portrayal of a being or beings that are meant to represent a large group is not meant to create a generalization of said group based upon the portrayal of said being(s)?

Mind you, I do not find much of value in the cartoons I've seen so far, and as such, I do not watch them. So my concerns about overly broad generalizations are based upon one episode that may be missing some broader series-wide context. So take it as you will.

Waspinator
2008-09-14, 09:06 PM
The minis complaint I don't entirely understand. Personally, I don't buy minis or grids, but that's just because it's really easy to use a printer, some glue or tape, and some coins (used as weights) to make your own cheap minis and map grids. And they really do help keep track of where people are in a room in a hectic fight.

Starsinger
2008-09-14, 09:15 PM
The minis complaint I don't entirely understand. Personally, I don't buy minis or grids, but that's just because it's really easy to use a printer, some glue or tape, and some coins (used as weights) to make your own cheap minis and map grids. And they really do help keep track of where people are in a room in a hectic fight.

Well, there's two ways to look at this.
1, like everything else the Troll said this is a lie.
2, cheap minis are still minis, and D&d should be a prop free game with nothing but the GM's soothing/grating voice and your d20 to distract you from the immersion. :smalltongue:

Thurbane
2008-09-14, 09:41 PM
Only if you misinterpret it.
So, yours is the only correct interpretation?

Funny thing about interpretations, there are oftimes as many of them as there are interpreters...

JaxGaret
2008-09-15, 12:58 AM
So, yours is the only correct interpretation?

Funny thing about interpretations, there are oftimes as many of them as there are interpreters...

Are you playing devil's advocate here, or do you honestly feel that my interpretation is incorrect?


Yes.

By the same thought process, of course.

Suffice it to say false generalizations can be read into anything, with the proper mindset.


Could you please explain how the portrayal of a being or beings that are meant to represent a large group is not meant to create a generalization of said group based upon the portrayal of said being(s)?

So you're saying that any portrayal of a being or beings must be a generalization of said group based upon the portrayal of said beings?

Forgive me for saying so, but that's a ridiculous claim. People can't portray anything without it being a generalization? I'm not even talking about this specific situation.

Back to the topic at hand: like I said before, what they were portraying was an anti-4e troll, which is a separate category of persons than those who don't like 4e. The two don't even need to coincide; some trolls just like to troll.


Mind you, I do not find much of value in the cartoons I've seen so far, and as such, I do not watch them. So my concerns about overly broad generalizations are based upon one episode that may be missing some broader series-wide context. So take it as you will.

I haven't watched the series of cartoons either, as I find them similarly valueless and devoid of humor.

Thurbane
2008-09-15, 01:55 AM
Are you playing devil's advocate here, or do you honestly feel that my interpretation is incorrect?
Mainly devil's avocado...there are few absolutes in the world of interpretation, or opinion, however...

JaxGaret
2008-09-15, 02:15 AM
Mainly devil's avocado...there are few absolutes in the world of interpretation, or opinion, however...

Well, I do feel that my interpretation is in all likelihood the intent of the persons who created it. Am I absolutely certain of this? No. But I am reasonably certain.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-09-15, 07:37 AM
So you're saying that any portrayal of a being or beings must be a generalization of said group based upon the portrayal of said beings?
Only when said beings are meant to be representative of the group as a whole rather than individuals. It seems to me that this was the case in this particular cartoon. The troll was not introduced as "one particular troll" but as the sole representation of the people that do not like 4e.


Forgive me for saying so, but that's a ridiculous claim. People can't portray anything without it being a generalization?
I never claimed that.

I do my best to realize when a character is meant to be an individual and when it is meant to be representative of something more. I'd say an introduction that explicitly labels someone as a group representative rather than an individual puts that someone in the latter group.

JaxGaret
2008-09-15, 08:00 PM
The troll was not introduced as "one particular troll" but as the sole representation of the people that do not like 4e.

Oh, right, I saw how they flashed the words "THIS IS WHAT WE THINK OF EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T LIKE 4E" on the screen before they showed the troll.

No, there was no "introduction". They showed a troll, who was trolling. That's a representation of a troll, nothing more, nothing less.

Trolls trolling about 4e =/= people who don't like 4e.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-15, 08:33 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this troll the sole representation of those who dislike 4e? I think it's a valid concern that this would make it into a broad generalization that all who dislike 4e are simply trolls.

If all who dislike 4E talk with Caps like a noob than they deserve it. I'm sorry, people that can't write intelligently deserve to be instructed in how bad they write.
Otherwise, those "trolls" will repeat that writing style indefinitely.

RebelRogue
2008-09-15, 09:29 PM
I'm marvelling at how little it appearantly takes to offend people these days! :smalleek:

Weiser_Cain
2008-09-15, 09:54 PM
I just assume most if not all corporations couldn't care less about their "fans" beyond their money.

Knaight
2008-09-15, 10:36 PM
If all who dislike 4E talk with Caps like a noob than they deserve it. I'm sorry, people that can't write intelligently deserve to be instructed in how bad they write.
You were aiming for then, who, and poorly with that post. It does seem odd that whenever anybody makes a post about how people who can't write shouldn't the amount of errors dramatically increases. There are inevitably going to be quite a few in this post too.

Weiser_Cain
2008-09-15, 11:05 PM
You were aiming for then, who, and poorly with that post. It does seem odd that whenever anybody makes a post about how people who can't write shouldn't the amount of errors dramatically increases. There are inevitably going to be quite a few in this post too.

Hehehe I sort of knew this was coming.

Thurbane
2008-09-16, 12:24 AM
I just assume most if not all corporations couldn't care less about their "fans" beyond their money.
Of course, but there are (at least) two approaches to getting the moula off your clients:

* Build customer loyalty and treat your customers with respect to keep them coming back for more.

* Treat them with utter indifference (or disdain), milk them for all they're worth, and assume they'll keep coming back for more, just because you're the biggest fish in the bowl.

...I think WotC slides more toward the second option...

Thrud
2008-09-16, 12:28 AM
Of course, but there are (at least) two approaches to getting the moula off your clients:

* Build customer loyalty and treat your customers with respect to keep them coming back for more.

* Treat them with utter indifference (or disdain), milk them for all they're worth, and assume they'll keep coming back for more, just because you're the biggest fish in the bowl.

...I think WotC slides more toward the second option...

Yeah, recently I have been feeling the same way. I think it is Hasbro's influence, personally. I often wonder how Richard Garfield feels about what happened to his company now that he is gone. I don't think he would like it today.

Mattarias, King.
2008-09-16, 12:42 AM
:smallbiggrin: Oh gods. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Needed a good laugh. HAH.

It's called parody*. If you can't laugh at yourself and your ideals every once in a while.. Well, you might need a vacation. :smallwink:

Love the kobold. he's most definitely sneaking into one of my games sometime. :smallbiggrin:

*Or satire. Close enough.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-16, 05:51 AM
You were aiming for then, who, and poorly with that post. It does seem odd that whenever anybody makes a post about how people who can't write shouldn't the amount of errors dramatically increases. There are inevitably going to be quite a few in this post too.

Bah, bad and poorly can be used in each others place only well and good can't be.

I'll admit I put an a instead of e in my word.

JaxGaret
2008-09-16, 09:31 AM
It's called parody*.

*Or satire. Close enough.

Oh yeah, I forget to mention this. Thanks, Mattarias.