PDA

View Full Version : Ur-Priest past level 10



Albonor
2008-09-13, 10:34 AM
I just created a villain who leads the last group of resistance after the people of a country defeated the theocracy at it's head. They used the fact that the god that was worshiped by the upper classes was split in two by a powerful artifact. That technicly killed the god as far as refusing to worship one of the halves go.

So, that leader is now a Bard5/cleric1/Ur-Priest10. I may need to buff him up more if the PCs decide to go after the Loyalists later than I expect. What do I do from here? BTW, i realise having a dead cleric level does not help but I didn't think I could go without him having been at least a standing member of the clergy. The God was CE but the curch gave a CN image of the randomness of death and sanity while being led by mainly NE individuals.

Any suggestions if I must add a few levels? Templates are kinda out unless they can be acquired.

UglyPanda
2008-09-13, 10:54 AM
I think Mystic Theurge ends up giving Ur-Priest 1.5 caster levels per class level as well as the caster levels for the other class.

Adumbration
2008-09-13, 10:56 AM
I think Mystic Theurge ends up giving Ur-Priest 1.5 caster levels per class level as well as the caster levels for the other class.

Suddenly, the whole party shivered with fear.

Rad
2008-09-13, 11:28 AM
Hierophant sounds good. It progresses your CL and you don't mind about it not progressing spells/day since you already have them maxed out. Divine Reach (maybe coupled with chain spell)? Spell-Like-Ability? Basically all archmage goodies are there for nothing. Unlike Archmage, requisites are almost null since it does not progress spells per day.
About the ex-cleric level, well the players won't see his sheet before they fight him; the "feel" of the encounter is safe since Ur Priest covers whatever cleric stuff you want him to do mechanically so you might consider him not having it. Think that he retrained it fr his first Ur Priest level if you like.

How do you get 1.5 caster levels?

Mystic theurge is a great trick, but I always resented to apply that to quick casters like Ur Priest. You could try to grab Sublime Chord though if you really want to be cheesy. It requires Bard 8 but if you have levels to spare going Bard 8/Ur Priest 1/SC 1/MT8 would give you 9th level spells both arcane and divine. 18th level instead of your 16th; 19th if you feel that you must put the ex-cleric level in.

Albonor
2008-09-13, 01:26 PM
Ouch! I knew I would get good answers but that kicks a**! Probably Mystic Theurge then, if only to raise the bard level as well as the CL of Ur-Priest...

JaxGaret
2008-09-14, 12:53 AM
How do you get 1.5 caster levels?

Because you get a caster level in Ur=Priest, plus the Ur-Priest itself has a class feature that adds half of all caster levels in other spellcasting classes to your Ur-Priest CL; thus the Mystic Theurge levels increase your Ur-Priest CL by 1.5 per level.

Douglas
2008-09-14, 01:25 AM
That doesn't actually work by (my interpretation of) the RAW. Ur-Priest adds half of all class levels in other spellcasting classes to its caster level. The only definition for "spellcasting class" I can think of that is not immediately obviously broken even without this trick is a class that has its own spell progression instead of advancing another class's progression. By that definition Mystic Theurge doesn't count on its own, and its advancement of your arcane casting doesn't increase how many class levels you have in your arcane casting class, so the only part of its advancement that applies to Ur-Priest is the direct advancement of Ur-Priest casting.

Wolfpack
2008-09-14, 01:31 AM
That doesn't actually work by (my interpretation of) the RAW. Ur-Priest adds half of all class levels in other spellcasting classes to its caster level. The only definition for "spellcasting class" I can think of that is not immediately obviously broken even without this trick is a class that has its own spell progression instead of advancing another class's progression. By that definition Mystic Theurge doesn't count on its own, and its advancement of your arcane casting doesn't increase how many class levels you have in your arcane casting class, so the only part of its advancement that applies to Ur-Priest is the direct advancement of Ur-Priest casting.

Well it doesn't actually say class levels anywhere. It just says levels, which of course is just as likely (or more) to mean CL as class level.

Douglas
2008-09-14, 01:56 AM
No, it is not. When Caster Level is meant in full text, it is always spelled out fully. "Level" by itself means class level, character level, or effective character level unless it is blatantly obvious from the context that some other kind of level is meant. Neither character level nor ECL make sense in this context, but class level does, therefore class level is what it is.

Wolfpack
2008-09-14, 02:22 AM
No, it is not. When Caster Level is meant in full text, it is always spelled out fully. "Level" by itself means class level, character level, or effective character level unless it is blatantly obvious from the context that some other kind of level is meant. Neither character level nor ECL make sense in this context, but class level does, therefore class level is what it is.

??

"unless it is blatantly obvious from the context"? So you mean unless you feel that it is different?

Caster level is not always spelled out in full. And that's precisely my point.

Douglas
2008-09-14, 02:50 AM
"unless it is blatantly obvious from the context"? So you mean unless you feel that it is different?
No, I mean unless the rule would make no sense if it meant class level, character level, or ECL, or it is in a category such as spell descriptions where caster level is the clear default.


Caster level is not always spelled out in full. And that's precisely my point.
In spell descriptions, no. In every other case I can think of (and my knowledge of 3.5 rules is quite extensive) the default whenever it makes any sense is class level, character level, or effective character level.

Let me put it this way: the use of the full term "caster level" whenever that is what is meant even when the context would make simply "level" perfectly clear is so pervasive and consistent throughout the ENTIRE rules set of 3.5e except spell descriptions, every WotC splatbook included, that it is reasonable to assume that not using the full term when another interpretation is possible means that the other interpretation is almost certainly what is meant.

timothyx
2008-09-14, 02:50 AM
I love the Ur Priest, it's probably the best Evil Divine caster class to play, not only in terms of flavor but also in the sheer badness you can accomplish.

If you played a Straight Fighter 3/Monk 2/Ur Priest 10 - The Caster level of the Ur Priest would be 10, so, yeah he's tossing around 8th and 9th level spells with only 10 caster levels to do it. Going and applying Practiced Spell caster would make it 14 caster levels tossing around 9th level spells, not so hot. You have an Easy fix, Bard 5 gives him 2 extra Levels so you could get a total of 16 Caster Levels and you're throwing around 9th level spells, pretty good, but, if you go for more cheese and want to break the bank, and I would simply because I wouldn't go any higher in Bard levels,

Give your character Practiced Spellcaster, Twice, apply to Bard, Apply to Ur Priest.

which, thusly then represents an 18th level caster level for your Ur Priest as it stands (10th levels Ur Priest = 10th level caster level +4 levels Practiced Spellcaster) then you get to divide your Bard Spellcaster level (5th Level Bard +4 levels for the 2nd feat of Practiced Spellcaster gives you a 9th level caster level for your bard, which you divide in half, giving you +4 caster levels to the Ur Priest).

18th level Spell Caster for your Ur Priest.

Now. Add the Mummy Template.

BA BOOM BABY! Only the most Insidiously Lawful Evil Undead Divine Caster with some Arcane buffs and the ability to not only create undead, but allowing him the Leadership feat and Craft Wondrous Item (which would give you Craft Construct), you've just made something thats the stuff of Nightmares... the +4 to Wisdom doesn't hurt either.

My thoughtd about your Background, and this is just my highly held opinion... I think it's a bit contrived. You have to remember Ur Priests HATE HATE HATE Gods. they create cults around themselves for personal glory and power in an attempt to subvert and destroy the Gods. I would say ditch the part over fighting over the God part entirely, and simply make it about Ideology, and power.

This guy's followers were decimated and in the aftermath of the social upheaval (if I'm reading your thought process right the God is dead, the city/country/etc is now at the mercy of a rulership not represented by a theocracy, but now some bizarre civilian/do gooders), he's now creating new followers so he can place himself as the Undead Ruler of the Night and Restore the Theocracy with him at the head... not a tough feat to pull off really.. that Bardic stuff, which honestly I'd never considered for an Ur Priest, is pretty slick, esp if you add the Leadership feat.

On a Side note, the Dead Cleric level is something to add Flavor, don't get bogged down by that it's a dead level, think of it as the focal point for his rise to an Ur Priest. if it really bugs you, nuke it entirely, and make him a Bard 5 / Unseen Seer 1 / Ur Priest 10 (The Unseer Seer gives you everything you ever needed to create a fantastic story behind how your guy became an Ur Priest, considering the flavor of the Unseen Seer), the Unseer Seer PRC is from Complete Mage

Bard 5 / "Insert Prestige or Other Core Class" 1 / Ur Priest 10 + The Mummy Template = ECL 20 = TPK on any party who doesnt' have at least a 9th Spell level tossing Divine or Arcane Caster to fend off the Barage.. it's the Bard levels that just makes it so much more interesting.. also, I'm totally stealing your idea for my next evil character.. thanks.. :)

I mean honestly, if you had a party consisting of a 16th level Fighter, 16th Level Cleric, 16th Level Rogue and a 16th Level Wizard... You might beat that. It could happen. yeah, and Monkeys could fly outta my...



PS: Mystic Theurge = Epic Fail; It's total cheese, just don't do it. it's poorly designed for one thing, and there's no advantage to it, also, once you hit 10th Level in Ur Priest, the Mystic Theurge thing wouldn't even apply you're simply better off taking a PRC which will raise up your Bard Levels, using a Mystic Theurge to buff up the levels of another Prestige Class is just.. well, imho, just too cheesy. Practiced Spellcaster does the job without having to take levels in another PRC just for the sake of gaining caster levels.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-14, 04:19 AM
Bard 1/any prepared Arcane Caster 5/Swordsage 2/Sublime Chord 2/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-14, 05:03 AM
On the topic of Ur-Priest caster level, "To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the characterís ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric donít count.)" That only counts actual levels in his other spellcasting classes. Mystic Theurge, or any PrC that adds to an existing spellcasting ability, is not a spellcasting class. Your ur-priest caster level does not count virtual levels in spellcasting classes, such as those granted by prestige classes that advance existing spellcasting ability.

I'd give him Practiced Spellcaster and Heirophant levels. Note that you can add the bonus from Practiced Spellcaster before adding the caster level bonus from Heirophant. The only other logical way to go would be either a Bard-specific PrC, or maybe get levels in something to minimize his weaknesses such as Survivor from Savage Species.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-14, 09:28 AM
On the topic of Ur-Priest caster level, "To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the characterís ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric donít count.)" That only counts actual levels in his other spellcasting classes. Mystic Theurge, or any PrC that adds to an existing spellcasting ability, is not a spellcasting class. Your ur-priest caster level does not count virtual levels in spellcasting classes, such as those granted by prestige classes that advance existing spellcasting ability.
Except that when you look at the spellcasting line in such classes as Mystic Theurge...


Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.
Technically, it doesn't specify that it has to be that class that you're calculating the caster level for, and it also says that you effectively add the MT level to the base class level for purposes of determining caster level. Sill, and abusable, but technically it works.

Per RAW, the Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8 gets an Ur-Priest caster level of 17, and an effective Wizard level of 14, at 16th level. That's 7th level Arcane, 9th level Divine spellcasting. 9th level arcane spells available at 19th (pick up some other full advancement Arcane PrC).

Of course, you can do more cheese by simply taking Ur-Priest to 10th level, and Gating or Planar Allying in an Efreeti to steal 3 Wishes/day from.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-14, 10:31 PM
Mystic Theurge increases your effective level of spellcasting ability as though you'd gained a level in that class. Ur-Priest does not say to add half your level in spellcasting ability, it says to add half your level in spellcasting classes. If you go Ranger 3/ Hexblade 3/ Ur-Priest 10, you'd have an ur-priest caster level of 13, even though the effective level of spellcasting for both of those classes is zero until the fourth class level. Effective levels of spellcasting ability are completely different from actual levels in a spellcasting class. Ur-priest's caster level doesn't count what your effective level of spellcasting in other classes is, it doesn't count that the levels of a PrC are added to the base class to determine its spellcasting ability, ur-priest's caster level only counts the levels in those classes which have a spell list, regardless of their effective level of spellcasting ability.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-15, 06:31 AM
Mystic Theurge increases your effective level of spellcasting ability as though you'd gained a level in that class. Ur-Priest does not say to add half your level in spellcasting ability, it says to add half your level in spellcasting classes. If you go Ranger 3/ Hexblade 3/ Ur-Priest 10, you'd have an ur-priest caster level of 13, even though the effective level of spellcasting for both of those classes is zero until the fourth class level. Effective levels of spellcasting ability are completely different from actual levels in a spellcasting class. Ur-priest's caster level doesn't count what your effective level of spellcasting in other classes is, it doesn't count that the levels of a PrC are added to the base class to determine its spellcasting ability, ur-priest's caster level only counts the levels in those classes which have a spell list, regardless of their effective level of spellcasting ability.
Well, it's silly, and it's abusable in the case of the Mystic Theurge (and similar dual-progression casting PrC's), but nearly as I can tell....

1) The Ur-Priest calculation is checking your other class levels for purposes of determining a caster level.
2) Spellcasting advancement PrC's specify that they're adding to your effective class levels in the other class for purposes of determining caster level (among other things).
-> Technically, arcane spellcasting PrC's increase your Ur-Priest caster level.

It's silly (especially in the case of the Mystic Theurge) and the DM is encouraged to tightly limit PrC's per the DMG, but technically, if you're using everything as written, the Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-10 is an 18th level character with a Wizard caster level of 16, and an Ur-Priest caster level of 20.