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dspeyer
2008-09-15, 11:05 PM
Not a lot of entries in the literary challenge, and a lot of "I might posts", so I'll leave that one open. I will, however, post a new one now.


RETURN OF THE GESTALT BUILD CHALLENGE IV: ULTIMATE ARCANISTS

The challenge here is simple: create the character with the greatest arcane ability. The capability to survive a surprise round from a CR-appropriate monster is a bonus.

"Gestalt Build Challenge" General Rules

We'll follow Duke of URL's old rules plus with a few minor changes.

For numeric attributes with progressions (such as BAB and saves) first determine at each level which progression the attribute follows, then count how many levels of each progression you have, then index into the progressions, then add them together. This means that a fighter 1 / sorceror 19 // wizard 20 has 1 level of good BAB and 19 of bad, giving +1 and +9 respectively for a total BAB of +10. Similarly, a character with 20 different marshal classes gets a base fort save of +12, not +40. It's not addressed in the gestalt or multiclassing rules, but this tends to make the most reasonable builds.

Disregard the clause about multiclassing penalties. We could never figure out how to apply it anyway.

If you are using multiple templates, you may only do so in a way which makes sense with what the template means. For example, you may only use one template that represents one parent being of a different race unless your base race is one where more-than-two parent reproduction is normal.

Well known cheese (pun-pun, omnificer, etc.) is banned.

Here are Duke of URL's old rules, for those who have forgotten them. Spoilered because they're long


Unless otherwise specified in the specific challenge, the following rules and guidelines are always in effect:
Gestalt builds; 28-point buy; use any WOTC 3.5 product (including Dragon magazine) except where noted (only 3.0 products with an official upgrade to 3.5 are allowed)
Make all builds to ECL 20. However, indicate the minimum ECL the build is playable at (the level at which all LA and/or racial HD, if applicable, are accounted for) and label any level that indicates a "power break" where the build has a significant jump in power level. Provide a detailed description of how the build operates.
Any race with a listed level adjustment is allowed (no racial progressions from Savage Species, please). LA and HD each apply to one side of the gestalt; you may include LA and HD on the same side as each other, or on other sides. No LA buyoff. LA is applied before racial HD, which must be paid off before class levels on that side. Examples: LA X / RHD Y / class Z / ... // class A / ... -OR- LA X / class Y / ... // RHD A / class B / ...
Multiclass at will, but see "voting".
Up to two flaws are allowed, but see "voting".
Templates are allowed, but see "voting".
Voting: Upon the close of entries for each challenge, members of the forum may vote in-thread for the build that best represents the goals set out by the challenge. The voting criteria should consist of: Functionality: How well does the build do in its primary role as specified in the challenge? Weaknesses: Does the build have any glaring weaknesses that can be exploited? Playability: How much of the 1-20 level range can the build be played at and be effective? Creativity: Clever use of races, classes, and/or feats that may not be "typical" choices Cheese: Minimizing the number of cheese points Using flaws (1 point each) Ignoring mutliclassing penalties -- some DMs actually do enforce this in gestalt (1 point each) Single-level dips that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point each) Templates that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point per +1 LA) Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each) Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each) Over-dependence on items (1 point per indispensable item) Over-dependence on Diplomacy or Use Magic Device skills (1,000,000 points each)

Kurald Galain
2008-09-16, 03:35 AM
Omnicaster FTW? :smalltongue:


(see sig. Yeah, I know, I've done that before and it scores a few million points on the cheese-o-meter; seriously though, if I have time this week I'll try and come up with something more original)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-16, 03:51 AM
And here I was planning on using a Beholder Mage. ;)

weenie
2008-09-16, 10:17 AM
Just to be clear, is BoEF allowed in this challenge?

monty
2008-09-16, 10:44 AM
While we're at it, will somebody please vote on challenge 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89770)? I'm the only one who has so far.

Chronos
2008-09-16, 12:27 PM
We need some more restrictions or specific goals for this one... Otherwise, we're just going to see a bunch of Cindy//factota and Cindy//warblades and the like.

dspeyer
2008-09-17, 01:59 AM
More specific? I think my previous challenges may have been too specific, so I think I'd rather leave this one wide open. Whatever you think is most valuable to an arcanist. It could be a simple highly-evolved nixie feral-vampire sorceror with ridiculous charisma or involve a dozen classes and special abilities. It's not really any less focused than Duke's Melee Masters or Skill Monkey Business challenges.

What's "cindy"? And why would a factotatem or warblade make sense here? Is there major cheese I'm missing?

As for BoEF, I haven't read it, but I don't see a need to ban it. Please don't show me one. I will note that if your build requires a multi-templated cohort with 35 dex, you must explain how to get one without cheese.

Chronos
2008-09-17, 01:31 PM
Cindy is an incantatrix wizard build that's something of the poster child for "overpowered wizard build" around here. It works just fine all by itself in non-gestalt rules; factotum or warblade is just something that you could stick on the other side to make it even more broken (due to both making use of Int). Really, though, it wouldn't be all that different from the usual non-gestalt build, which makes it kind of boring.

JaxGaret
2008-09-17, 01:58 PM
And why would a factotatem make sense here?

You do know that one of the Factotum's class features gives it the ability to take extra Standard actions a limited number of times per day, no?

While I do agree with Chronos that this is probably going to be won by the usual power builds, I see some wiggle room. For instance, my entry will be a non-Cindy build that is fairly competitive.

Chronos
2008-09-17, 03:34 PM
You do know that one of the Factotum's class features gives it the ability to take extra Standard actions a limited number of times per day, no?Worse than that: A limited number of times per encounter. IIRC, at the point that they get that ability, and without any feats spent on it, they have enough inspiration to take two extra standard actions per encounter. That means that at 8th level, you can cast three standard spells in a row in the first round of every single encounter... That's not likely to leave much encounter left over.

Draz74
2008-09-17, 03:58 PM
Worse than that: A limited number of times per encounter. IIRC, at the point that they get that ability, and without any feats spent on it, they have enough inspiration to take two extra standard actions per encounter. That means that at 8th level, you can cast three standard spells in a row in the first round of every single encounter... That's not likely to leave much encounter left over.

At Level 8, they have 5 IP's, so they can only take 1 extra standard action/encounter. To get it up to 2 standard actions/encounter requires Level 11 (or a Font).

dspeyer
2008-09-18, 01:09 AM
I tracked down the thread where Cindy was introduced, but the link to the character sheet had gone dead. From the discussion, she sounded optimized specifically to do obscene blasting damage. A handy talent, but hardly the ultimate arcane power. Of course, without the character sheet, it's hard to tell. It's also hard to tell how much cheese is involved.

As for factotatem, if two free actions per encounter really seems worth 11 levels of casting, make that argument.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-18, 01:17 AM
I tracked down the thread where Cindy was introduced, but the link to the character sheet had gone dead. From the discussion, she sounded optimized specifically to do obscene blasting damage. A handy talent, but hardly the ultimate arcane power. Of course, without the character sheet, it's hard to tell. It's also hard to tell how much cheese is involved.

As for factotatem, if two free actions per encounter really seems worth 11 levels of casting, make that argument.Gestalt, it loses nothing, and even has it's own SLA progression that mimics Arcane spells.

And Cindy "Blasts" the same way the Omniscifer "Is fairly smart". She has Persisted buffs that make her invisible, undetectable, always able to kill stuff first, immune to magic, and dealing 400+ damage and 2 negative levels out of 4th level slots with a ranged touch attack. Or 22 negative levels, depending on what it is you want to kill. Tacking on 8 levels of Factotem and 12 levels of Fighter to get 33 Inspiration points(11 Standard Actions per encounter), multiple good saves, even more obscene Spellcraft checks, bunches of HP(d8 or d10, +Int mod instead of Con), 18 BAB, Int to Init, she would become Godlike.

Especially if you statted her up to level 20. That would really make her scary.

JaxGaret
2008-09-18, 01:20 AM
As for factotatem, if two free actions per encounter really seems worth 11 levels of casting, make that argument.

You have 20 levels of casting from the other side of the gestalt already.

Combat is deadly. The quicker you can kill the enemy, the better, therefore it is in your best interest to get as many opportunities (actions) with which to facilitate their departure from this world.

Talic
2008-09-18, 01:30 AM
You don't need to give up 11 levels of casting.

Throw one side to be a 20 caster. The other, go 1 rogue/11 factotum/8caster complement class.

Rogue's to give Able Learner some skills to play with with factotum. Ideally, you go a PrC that gives seperate casting progression, and doesn't advance the original class.

you end up with something like:

wiz 1 // rogue 1
wiz 2 // Factotum 1
wiz 3 // Factotum 2
wiz 4 // Factotum 3
wiz 5 // Factotum 4
wiz 6 // Factotum 5
wiz 7 // Factotum 6
wiz 8 // Factotum 7
wiz 9 // Factotum 8
wiz 10 // Caster PRC 1
wiz 11 // Caster PRC 2
wiz 12 // Caster PRC 3
wiz 13 // Factotum 9
Archmage 1 // Factotum 10
Wiz 14 // Factotum 11
Wiz 15 // Caster PRC 4
Wiz 16 // Caster PRC 5
Wiz 17 // Caster PRC 6
Wiz 18 // Caster PRC 7
Wiz 19 // Caster PRC 8

That would leave 2 spaces open for PrC's, at level 13 and 15, pick a decent one, maybe unseen seer, and it'd be interesting.

It'd give you dual progression pretty far (full for wizard, and 8 levels in a 10 level tree for the PRC tree), an Archmage ability (up to 3, if you shuffle the levels around a bit), and has the added bonus that casting progression for PRC's, while usually more focused, tends to be more powerful, and faster, than for base classes.

dspeyer
2008-09-18, 01:35 AM
And, let's put an actual build out here:

Clemens
"The difference between the right spell and the almost right spell is that between lightning bolt and summon nature's ally 0: lightning bug."
-- Mark Twain, if he were a wizard

Race: Human
Stats: just get int as high as possible
Classes: wizard 5 / incantrix 8 / mage of the arcane order 7 // beguiler 20
Feats: energy sub(acid), energy sub(electricity), iron will, silent, energy admix (acid), energy admix (electricity), still, cooperative, rapid metamagic, widen, sudden empower, sudden widen
Alternate features: specialize in abjuration, bar enchantment and illusion

The concept is to have the exact right spell for any circumstance. Let's take it by school:

Enchantment and Illusion: Beguiler pretty much has these covered, and you can cast any spell, any time.

Divination: drop any wizard spell for any divination of that level

Evocation: A lot of this school is redundant. If you keep a few mixed fire/acid balls and cold/electricity spheres prepared, those will cover most possibilities nicely.

Conjuration: Take shadow conjuration and shades as advanced learning. If the percent reality is a problem, prop it up with sudden empower. Since there are so many useful conjurations, you'll want to prepare the most useful of these directly, but there's no need to both with the obscure ones.

Abjuration, Transmutation and Necromancy: OK, I'm out of workarounds, but this is most of your wizarding spells to cover only three schools, and you specialize in one of them. Though it does help that there are few transmutations that polymorph any object can't replicate.

If all of this fails, there's full spellpool access.

There's also a few nice powers that aren't breadth related: incantrix's metamagic bonuses, beguiler's bypassing spell resistance, and more skill points than most rogues.

monty
2008-09-18, 01:37 AM
Why 1 level of Archmage? Wizard 16-19 are dead levels anyway; if you're taking one level, you may as well go for 5.

Edit: @ Talic. Got ninja'ed without quoting.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-18, 01:40 AM
Does anyone have the link to Cindy's sheet? I know there have been recent ones that worked.

Essentially, If I were tossing her into this, I'd go Cindy 18/Metaphysical Spellshaper 2//Fighter 1/Feat Rogue 1/Factotem 8/Fighter 7/Elf Paragon 3. 41 Inspiration points, 37 additional skill points, an additional +2 to Int(not like she needs it), 50 more HP(+ the additional 20 from the Int boost), 8 levels of Factotem abilities adding Int to everything, and the ability, if you're really desperate, to burn off attributes for even more metamagic.

Yeah, she's evil.

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-18, 02:23 AM
I believe Akimbo put one up for one challenge or another recently that was level 20. Called it Naithan (not sure of the spelling).

I had a Wiz 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 5//Fighter 1/ Factotum 8/ Fighter 11 who abused Vow of Poverty (take it at level 1 and chaos shuffle it and all it's extra bonus feats at level 20) made up but it got eaten. I might actually remake it for this challenge.

--
What is your take on Pokemon? And how is wish abuse handled in these challenges?

Talic
2008-09-18, 02:33 AM
Why 1 level of Archmage? Wizard 16-19 are dead levels anyway; if you're taking one level, you may as well go for 5.

Edit: @ Talic. Got ninja'ed without quoting.

Simple. On the other side of the gestalt, there's a PRC on the levels of Wiz 16-19. Gestalt rules prohibit more than 1 PRC in any given character level.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-18, 02:40 AM
I believe Akimbo put one up for one challenge or another recently that was level 20. Called it Naithan (not sure of the spelling).

I had a Wiz 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 5//Fighter 1/ Factotum 8/ Fighter 11 who abused Vow of Poverty (take it at level 1 and chaos shuffle it and all it's extra bonus feats at level 20) made up but it got eaten. I might actually remake it for this challenge.

--
What is your take on Pokemon? And how is wish abuse handled in these challenges?I'm assuming it was similar to Cindy? Why not go Elf Paragon+Feat Rogue? Gets you more skills, only loses a few HP(how many skills and HP depends on how you space the levels), and gets the same number of feats, plus gets +2 to Int.

monty
2008-09-18, 02:42 AM
All right...let's try this in gestalt.

The Brother of Shadows
Race: Half-Fiend Gnome
Class: Illusionist 5 / Incantatrix 10 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 // LA 4 / Factotum 16 (playable from level 4)
Prohibited Schools: Evocation, Enchantment, Necromancy, Conjuration (at first level of Incantatrix)
Stats (pre-racial): Str 10 (8) Dex 16 (12) Con 18 (14) Int 22 (18) Wis 10 Cha 10 (8)
Patron deity: any Evil with the Luck domain
Alignment: any Evil, must match deity

{table]Level | Class 1 | Class 2 | Feat(s)
1 | Gnome Illusionist 1 | LA 1 | Earth Sense
2 | Illusionist 2 | LA 2
3 | Illusionist 3 | LA 3 | Iron Will
4 | Illusionist 4 | LA 4
5 | Gnome Illusionist 5 | Factotum 1
6 | Incantatrix 1 | Factotum 2 | Spell Focus (Illusion), Heighten Spell
7 | Incantatrix 2 | Factotum 3
8 | Shadowcraft Mage 1 | Factotum 4
9 | Shadowcraft Mage 2 | Factotum 5 | Earth Spell
10 | Shadowcraft Mage 3 | Factotum 6
11 | Incantatrix 3 | Factotum 7
12 | Incantatrix 4 | Factotum 8 | Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell), Quicken Spell
13 | Incantatrix 5 | Factotum 9
14 | Incantatrix 6 | Factotum 10
15 | Incantatrix 7 | Factotum 11 | Residual Magic, Extend Spell
16 | Incantatrix 8 | Factotum 12
17 | Incantatrix 9 | Factotum 13
18 | Incantatrix 10 | Factotum 14 | Arcane Disciple (Luck), Persist Spell
19 | Shadowcraft Mage 4 | Factotum 15
20 | Shadowcraft Mage 5 | Factotum 16[/table]
Level 20 numbers:
HP 4d4+16d8+80
BAB +14
Base saves: Fort +6, Ref +11, Will +12
AC 15 (+3 Dex, +1 Size, +1 Natural)

Suggested equipment: Headband of Intellect, Tome of Clear Thought, Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, other stuff.

It's past midnight here, so I'm not going to try to make a backstory for this character right now (he/she doesn't even have a name yet; I'll refer to him as male for now to simplify things). Basically, he casts a lot of illusion spells. Really well. At level 18, among other things, he gets the ability to cast Miracle, semi-spontaneously, from an 8th-level spell slot. Even better, if he cast a 10th level Silent Image the previous round, he can cast it as a cantrip, thanks to Residual Magic and the gnome substitution level. With more feats, I'd like to give him Signature Spell, but every non-metamagic feat is already in use, so I'll have to do without. Usual Incantatrix cheese applies, of course. In other words, he casts a lot of heavily metamagicked stuff at low spell slots.

The main downside is all the prohibited schools. If I had made him a focused specialist, every single school would be accounted for. Illusion is specialized, Abjuration and Divination can't be prohibited, and the others besides Transmutation are already gone.

Blah, I need some sleep. I might reorganize this later, when I'm fully conscious. Or I might not. The crunch is there, anyway.

Yeah, I definitely need sleep first. I can't read, apparently.

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-18, 02:56 AM
I'm assuming it was similar to Cindy? Why not go Elf Paragon+Feat Rogue? Gets you more skills, only loses a few HP(how many skills and HP depends on how you space the levels), and gets the same number of feats, plus gets +2 to Int.

I might. I was just saying that that was a build I had finished (tangled web ate it) from a few months ago. And at that point the difference in power level is really trivial. When you can already solo every single published monster without a problem you don't really need more power. About that only way to make it appreciably more powerful is to put Illithid Savant on one side.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-18, 03:00 AM
I might. I was just saying that that was a build I had finished (tangled web ate it) from a few months ago. And at that point the difference in power level is really trivial. When you can already solo every single published monster without a problem you don't really need more power. About that only way to make it appreciably more powerful is to put Illithid Savant on one side.This is a challenge to make the Ultimate Gestalt build, why not go for Ultimate PowerTM?

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-18, 03:21 AM
This is a challenge to make the Ultimate Gestalt build, why not go for Ultimate PowerTM?

Because to do that you go Warblade 20// Rogue 15/Illithid Savant 5 and then start using gate abuse to gate in other Illithid Savant's who you then order to let you eat their brains. And once you have eaten the brains of every other IS in existence you get to work on the rest of the multiverse, starting with its casters.

You end up with every special ability and class feature in the game, and multiple copies of each. You even get divine ranks.

monty
2008-09-18, 03:25 AM
Well known cheese (pun-pun, omnificer, etc.) is banned.

I would think Illithid Savant qualifies as "well known cheese." Because really, it's just ridiculous.

Also, was it ever updated to 3.5?

weenie
2008-09-18, 06:59 AM
Does anyone have the link to Cindy's sheet? I know there have been recent ones that worked.

Essentially, If I were tossing her into this, I'd go Cindy 18/Metaphysical Spellshaper 2//Fighter 1/Feat Rogue 1/Factotem 8/Fighter 7/Elf Paragon 3. 41 Inspiration points, 37 additional skill points, an additional +2 to Int(not like she needs it), 50 more HP(+ the additional 20 from the Int boost), 8 levels of Factotem abilities adding Int to everything, and the ability, if you're really desperate, to burn off attributes for even more metamagic.

Yeah, she's evil.(emphasis added)

Actually taking ability damage is not necessary. Just cast a persistent Body of Stone in the morning, and proceed to use all the metamagic feats you posses on any spell with no extra cost at all. Rapid Spell lets you even use quicken! Twinned, maximized, empowered, energy admixed(cold), energy substituted(fire), energy admixed(fire), scorching, fiery, fell drain, enervating(or energized) polar ray anyone? :smallbiggrin:

Though that might count as cheese with some DMs..

Chronos
2008-09-18, 01:31 PM
OK, I've got an idea now I want to work through, which has the advantage that it can only really work in Gestalt (as opposed to Cindy//something), which should make it a bit more interesting. It'll take a heck of a lot of fluffing to justify it, though... I might have something on it tonight.

Wolfpack
2008-09-18, 04:08 PM
His Royal Cheesiness.

Race: Ancient Gray Elf
Class: Wizard 5/Bard 1/Incantatrix 3/Ultimate Magus 8/Incantatrix 1/Ultimate Magus 2//Beguiler 5/Rainbow Servant 5/Sublime Chord 1/Rainbow Servant 1/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 3/Incantatrix 4/Rainbow Servant 1/Incantatrix 2
Prohibited Schools: Evocation after gaining contingency and few other spells.
Starting Stats: Str 1 Dex 10 Con 1 Int 22 Wis 11 Cha 20 (8)
Patron deity: Boccob
Alignment: Neutral

{table]Level | Class 1 | Class 2 | Feat(s)
1 | Wizard 1 | Beguiler 1 | Fairie Mysteries Initaite, Keen Intellect, Extend Spell
2 | Wizard 2 | Beguiler 2
3 | Wizard 3 | Beguiler 3 | Iron Will
4 | Wizard 4 | Beguiler 4
5 | Wizard 5 | Beguiler 5
6 | Bard 1 | Rainbow Servant 1 | Persistent Spell
7 | Incantatrix 1 | Rainbow Servant 2 | Chain Spell
8 | Incantatrix 2 | Rainbow Servant 3
9 | Incantatrix 3 | Rainbow Servant 4 | Feat
10 | Ultimate Magus 1 | Rainbow Servant 5
11 | Ultimate Magus 2 | Sublime Chord 1
12 | Ultimate Magus 3 | Rainbow Servant 6 | Feat
13 | Ultimate Magus 4 | Mindbender 1
14 | Ultimate Magus 5 | Rainbow Servant 7 | Quicken Spell
15 | Ultimate Magus 6 | Rainbow Servant 8 | Mindsight
16 | Ultimate Magus 7 | Rainbow Servant 9
17 | Ultimate Magus 8 | Incantatrix 4 | Feat
18 | Incantatrix 5 | Rainbow Servant 10 | Feat
19 | Ultimate Magus 9 | Incantatrix 6 | Feat
20 | Ultimate Magus 10 | Incantatrix 7 | Feat, Chaos Shuffle Profeciencies[/table]
Level 20 numbers:
HP 7d6+13d4+280
BAB +something
Base saves: Fort: meh, Ref: meh, Will: Ungodly
Feats: 10 more to customize.

Suggested equipment: Headband of Intellect, Tome of Clear Thought, Whatever else you want.

Playable from: Level 1, where you are an awesome Beguiler/Wizard with a very weak Fort save.

Power Breaks: Level 9, Persistent Polymorph removes weak Fort.
Level 11, Huge CL jump.
Level 18, Spontaneous Casting of all Cleric spells.

Level 20 features of note:
Casts as level 19 Wizard
Casts as level 20 Beguiler
Casts as level 7 Sublime Chord
CL for all Spells is 31 before any items.

Mindsight 100ft.
Incantatrix Metamagic abuse.
Burn slots on one side to apply metamagic to other.
Three Domains: Good, Air, Law.
Beguiler Spell list consists of:
All Beguiler Spells, All Cleric Spells, Beguiler Advanced Learnings, 1 spell of your choice from the Wizard list at levels 1-5.

Cheese rating: 1,000,016

Chronos
2008-09-18, 06:07 PM
Just to clarify, what class(es) is each PrC level advancing? How are you getting Ultimate Magus to advance wizard fully (I think that's what you're doing)? And are you using the text or table for Rainbow Servant?

Turcano
2008-09-18, 07:25 PM
Just to clarify, what class(es) is each PrC level advancing? How are you getting Ultimate Magus to advance wizard fully (I think that's what you're doing)? And are you using the text or table for Rainbow Servant?

Not to mention the fact that the build uses dual-caster prestige classes in a manner that no DM with an ounce of sense would allow no matter what and taking two prestige classes per level, both of which take major hits in the voting guidelines.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-18, 08:04 PM
Sorcerer (spontanious Metamagic PhB II variant)7/Incantatrix10/Sorc3//Warlock17/Hellfire Warlock3

Awsome CHA synergy. May have to toss in two levels of Crusader/Paladin to get Cha to saves, although that would have alignment conflictions with the Lock.

Basically, grab a bunch of utility spells from Sorcerer, and do all your blasting with Warlock. Bind Naberious yadda yadda we're familiar with how to do this by now to get around the Con damage from the Hellfire Warlock.

You've got a Spontanious Batman, with insanely effective magics thanks to Incantatrix, and crazy blasting for when you just need to reach for a bigger hammer.

Let's start with Persisting Foresight (with a decent Spellcraft check) to be able to drop Win buttons on any given encounter before it has a chance to do anything. Contingency Celerity Time Stop yadda yadda to give him the time to press the win button.

Oh, wait... you mean you actually wanted a DECENT entry? Not one that can just go for Win Buttons (tm) all the time?

See my previous entry, Kan Tse Mi. It's not horridly optimized, but at least it was cool.

Chronos
2008-09-18, 08:16 PM
Bind Naberious yadda yadda we're familiar with how to do this by now to get around the Con damage from the Hellfire Warlock. Yes, how you do that is take at least one level of Binder. I'm not seeing that anywhere in your build...


And I could use some advice: I've got too many feats in my entry I'm working on (mostly metamagic), so I need some sources of bonus feats. I've got up to 10 PrC levels to work with. Any suggestions? Other than Incantatrix, because A, I don't have access to it, and B, I'd like to avoid it on general principles.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-18, 08:26 PM
10 levels of Fighter, then Chaos Shuffle.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-18, 08:37 PM
Or there's always Sacred Vow/Vow of Poverty then Chaos Shuffle.

dspeyer
2008-09-18, 08:41 PM
And I could use some advice: I've got too many feats in my entry I'm working on (mostly metamagic), so I need some sources of bonus feats. I've got up to 10 PrC levels to work with. Any suggestions? Other than Incantatrix, because A, I don't have access to it, and B, I'd like to avoid it on general principles.

Off the top of my head, Alienist, Guildmage and Loremaster (if you've got your int permanently above 24) each offer a bonus metamagic feat at a low level. If you're willing to sacrifice a caster level, so does spellsword (and the armor might be handy). All of them have requirements that might be a problem.

monty
2008-09-18, 09:17 PM
His Royal Cheesiness.

(obscenely cheesy stuff)

Uh, you know that taking two prestige classes at once is explicitly against the rules, right?


A gestalt character canít combine two prestige classes at any level

Emphasis mine. Compare to the wording of dual-progression classes, which are frowned upon rather than prohibited.


Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations...should be prohibited

Again, emphasis mine.

dspeyer
2008-09-18, 10:20 PM
I concur.

I hereby bestow the milk-that-didn't-get-drunk-soon-enough award, in the hopes of no one trying to top that (probably by using ultimate magus as one side of mystic theurge).

monty
2008-09-18, 10:23 PM
I concur.

I hereby bestow the milk-that-didn't-get-drunk-soon-enough award, in the hopes of no one trying to top that (probably by using ultimate magus as one side of mystic theurge).

I'm pretty sure that doesn't work anyway, because Ultimate Magus is not a spellcasting class.

Wolfpack
2008-09-18, 11:08 PM
I'm sorry, I'm relatively new to these competitions, so I read the actual rules of the challenge and followed them.

You guys can all get back to me when you actually read the rules.

Arbitrarity
2008-09-18, 11:26 PM
Actually, you still get spoiled milk award, as your cheese level is about 1000001, which will generally result in difficulty winning in voting.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-18, 11:28 PM
However, she is correct that her character build IS permitted, just that it receives many cheese points. Nothing wrong with that as long as she's okay with it, which she obviously is.

monty
2008-09-18, 11:43 PM
Uh, I did read the rules. I quoted the rule in question in a previous post. Just because the challenge rules only give it one cheese point doesn't mean it's not illegal by D&D rules.

Ganurath
2008-09-19, 12:24 AM
I'm sorry, I'm relatively new to these competitions, so I read the actual rules of the challenge and followed them.

You guys can all get back to me when you actually read the rules.
Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each)
Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each)

That being said, here's a build that does neither, Darkseer:

The elves have a unique understanding of magic, and it's scientific roots. This is especially true of fire elves, as they understand the elemental planes are symbolic of the various forms of materia: air is gas, water is liquid, earth is solid, and fire is energy. The energy if the fire elve's being, if strong enough, leads him or her down the path of the Darkseer.

The path of the Darkseer is a simple devotion among the fire elves: Acquire knowledge, gain power, master your domain. This mentality normally leads the Darkseer toward being a diviner, but those who are also Beguilers in secret have the unique opportunity of barring enchantment as well, and delving into the truly black lores as necromancers.

Like many Darkseers, the truly gifted are blessed with the privilege of divine mandate to the pursuit of power: Beings of fire are artists and artisans, and perfection of the craft that made their race possible is the highest of prestiges. Unlike them, however, they have the necromantic interest to focus on the ancient runes of dark power, combining the Black Lore of Moil with Arcane Geometry to create twisted diagrams of arcane power.

Unlike most specialists, however, a Darkseer knows better than to neglect schools of magic outside his specialty. By combining talents for illusion and divination, the Darkseer becomes a master of any encounter he should face, evading foes before raining nightmarish destruction upon them with ancient magics.

{table]Fire Elf|Side A|Side B|Feats|Extra
1|Necromancer|Beguiler|Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion,) Scribe ScrollB|Cursed Glance varient, bar Evocation and Enchantment
2|Necromancer|Beguiler||Conceal Spellcasting Skill Trick
3|Necromancer|Beguiler|Spell Focus (Necromancy)|Advanced Learning: Magic Aura
4|Necromancer|Beguiler||
5|Necromancer|Beguiler|Silent Spell, Spontaneous Divination|False Theurgy Skill Trick
6|Divine Oracle|Beguiler|Spell Focus (Illusion)|
7|Geometer|Beguiler||Advanced Learning: Phantasmal Assailents
8|Geometer|Beguiler||
9|Geometer|Beguiler|Black Lore of Moil|Swift Concentration Skill Trick
10|Geometer|Beguiler|Still Spell|
11|Geometer|Beguiler||Advanced Learning: Mirage Arcana
12|Divine Oracle|Beguiler|Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy)
13|Divine Oracle|Beguiler||
14|Divine Oracle|Beguiler||
15|Divine Oracle|Beguiler|Greater Spell Focus (Illusion)|Advanced Learning: Greater Shadow Conjuration
16|Divine Oracle|Beguiler||
17|Divine Oracle|Beguiler||
18|Divine Oracle|Beguiler|Eschew Material Components|
19|Divine Oracle|Beguiler||Advanced Learning: Shades
20|Divine Oracle|Beguiler||[/table]

Points of note:
-Eschew at 18 is for one purpose only: get Ignore Material Components at 21. All spells get free spellglyphs, and all necromancy spells get maximum Moil damage. If you don't care about going for Epic Levels, replace with Arcane Thesis on whatever spell you want to have Stilled and Silenced for free.

-Remember, being barred against Enchantment only prevents the build from casting Enchantments as a Wizard, you're still good to go with Beguiler enchantments.

-As a 10th level Divine Oracle, Darkseer has Immune to Surprise as an extraordinary ability, so between that and just casting divinations to know when the ambushes occur Darkseer will never drop in the surprise round. Bonus points, puh-lease.

-At the pinnacle of the build, if the target is flat-footed, illusions will have +6 DC and automatically bypass SR. Necromancy spells will not only have this, but 1d6 negative energy damage for every two levels: Hello, Sword of Darkness! Add in spellglyphs, and the spell gets silenced for free to maintain cover and add +1 to caster level.

Chronos
2008-09-19, 01:06 AM
Kobolds are renowned for their devotion to dragonkind, but deep in the heart of the fetid K'zarth Jungle, the G'thenk tribe brings this devotion to new depths of depravity. Not content with using images of dragons or cast-off dragonscales in their worship, they instead subject members of their own people to a set of eldritch draconic rituals to convert them into living symbols of their devotion. Though these transformations are not without a share of power granted to the subject, and the high priests insist that it is a great honor to be so chosen, the victims of these rituals are rather to be pitied than envied: They live only to serve the spiritual needs of the community, having not so much as a name of their own, and are never allowed out of the narrow confines of the innermost rooms of the temple.

Such was the lot of our hero, when his village was rousted by a raiding party of gnomes. They could see that such a scrawny, frail kobold, imprisoned for centuries, was no threat to them, and so took him prisoner rather than killing him. While among the gnomes, he learned their language, and came to greatly admire the gnomish respect for the individual, above and beyond the role in the community. He strove to emulate gnomish ways himself, and with time, came to be accepted by them as one of their own. Eventually, he even learned to incorporate the gnomish magical traditions into his own sorcerous capabilities, and praised the luck which led him to such a different life than he was born to. As he grew more powerful, he became a paragon of gnomish ideals, despite his birth race, and even went on to lead the fight against his former comrades, delivering to them a taste of how he had suffered at their hands.

Gneville the Gnobold

Venerable Dragonwrought Greater Rite of Passage Loredrake Fire-Souled Jungle Kobold
Sorcerer (rapid metamagic variant) 5/Shadowcraft Mage 1/Spellsword 1/Sorcerer +1/Shadowcraft Mage +4/Sorcerer +7/Nightmare Spinner +1//Dark LA 1/Bard 1/Stoneblessed 3/Fighter 1/Wizard (Illusionist) 1/Spellsword +1/Illusionist +4/Gnome paragon 3/Master Specialist 3/ Nightmare Spinner 1/Illusionist +1

Ability scores:
Str 6, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 25 (increase Cha)

Minimum playable level: 1
Power Break: 12 (free miracles)
Cheese points: Officially, 2 flaws

{table=head]ECL | Class 1| Class 2| Feats
1|Sorcerer 1| Dark LA|Flaw: Light Sensitivity, Flaw: Lightweight, Dragonwrought, Earth Sense, Spell Focus (Illusion)
2|Sorcerer 2| Bard 1|
3|Sorcerer 3| Stoneblessed 1| Arcane Disciple (Luck)
4|Sorcerer 4| Stoneblessed 2|
5|Sorcerer 5| Stoneblessed 3|
6|Shadowcraft Mage 1| Fighter 1| Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative
7|Spellsword 1| Gnome Illusionist 1| Scribe Scroll
8|Sorcerer 6| Spellsword 2| Heighten Spell
9|Shadowcraft Mage 2| Illusionist 2| Earth Spell
10|Shadowcraft Mage 3| Illusionist 3|
11|Shadowcraft Mage 4| Illusionist 4|
12|Shadowcraft Mage 5| Illusionist 5| Practical Metamagic (Heighten Spell), Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell)
13|Sorcerer 7| Gnome Paragon 1|
14|Sorcerer 8| Gnome Paragon 2|
15|Sorcerer 9| Gnome Paragon 3| Residual Magic
16|Sorcerer 10|Master Specialist 1| Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
17|Sorcerer 11|Master Specialist 2|
18|Sorcerer 12|Master Specialist 3| Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Greater Spell Penetration
19|Sorcerer 13|Nightmare Spinner 1
20|Nightmare Spinner 2 |Illusionist 6[/table]

The arcane power of this character is fairly straightforward: He always has spellcasting as a sorcerer of three levels higher than his own level, thanks to the Loredrake template and the kobold Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. As a Shadowcraft Mage, he can convert any of his figment spells (such as a heightened Silent Image) into quasi-real Conjuration (creation), Conjuration (summoning) or Evocation spells. At level 12, thanks to the effective spell level increase from Earth Spell and the metamagic cost reductions from Practical and Easy Metamagic, he can actually simulate Miracles (or any other 9th-level Conjuration (creation), Conjuration (summoning), or Evocation spell) in seventh-level spell slots, with 100% quasi-reality and no XP cost, and at a caster level 13 higher than his level. By 15th level, whenever he casts such a Miracle, he can follow up in the next round with another Miracle, expending only a cantrip spell slot from his wizard levels to do so. His spells eventually receive a +4 to save DCs and to caster level checks to penetrate spell resistance, and at 20th level, anyone attempting to disbelieve any of his spells becomes shaken, with no save. He has 24 spell slots per day that he can convert into 9th-level spells, or more with Charisma-boosting items, and can follow each of those with another residual 9th-level spell.

Wolfpack
2008-09-19, 01:24 AM
1) Chronos, Fire Souled is a +3 LA.

2) Everyone who ignored my actual post in which I clearly labeled my cheese point total at the bottom, it is 1,000,016. Of course this has very little bearing on voting, since cheese is one of the 5 separate factors, and as such, my superior score in those easily puts me on even footings.

3) The rules of the challenge supersede normal gestalt rules, indeed they must, because the gestalt rules as written do not actually allow you to play with them unless the DM fills in gaps.

4) So in conclusion: Omnicaster is a great build because it was made by someone you like, but my build sucks because it was made by someone who doesn't have the respect of the community.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-19, 03:13 AM
And I could use some advice: I've got too many feats in my entry I'm working on (mostly metamagic), so I need some sources of bonus feats. I've got up to 10 PrC levels to work with. Any suggestions?

Why yes I do. Other tham the obvious (taking flaws and chaos shuffle) you can gain additional feats by
* selling your soul to a devil, YA RLY. The Fiendish Codex explains how.
* taking a legacy weapon, as described in Weapons of Legacy.
* craft a custom magical item (although I suppose most DMs won't let you do that; but then, most DMs probably won't let you chaos shuffle either)
* travel to the Metamagic Storm, from the Complete Arcane, which gives you a free metamagic feat for the period of one year.

Chronos
2008-09-19, 03:45 PM
1) Chronos, Fire Souled is a +3 LA.Ah, a typo on Crystal Keep, then. I thought that seemed a bit too good for a LA of 1. I'll get around to changing that eventually; it's not really essential for the build (just a way to boost Cha, as far as I'm concerned).

Wolfcaster, we acknowledge that your build is legal for the (house)rules of this competition. That doesn't stop it from being cheesy, though, and the voting guidelines are just that, guidelines. For some people, the coolness of your build (or of the Omnicaster) might be enough to override the cheesiness in their voting decisions, but for some people, it might not be. Ultimately, everyone decides for themselves how to vote.

Wolfpack
2008-09-19, 07:05 PM
Ah, a typo on Crystal Keep, then. I thought that seemed a bit too good for a LA of 1. I'll get around to changing that eventually; it's not really essential for the build (just a way to boost Cha, as far as I'm concerned).

Yeah, I didn't see any mention of celerity, so I didn't think it was actually too important to the build.


Wolfcaster, we acknowledge that your build is legal for the (house)rules of this competition. That doesn't stop it from being cheesy, though, and the voting guidelines are just that, guidelines. For some people, the coolness of your build (or of the Omnicaster) might be enough to override the cheesiness in their voting decisions, but for some people, it might not be. Ultimately, everyone decides for themselves how to vote.

Right. That's great. So please let that reflect in the voting instead of having everyone insult me all over this thread. (Not you, I had no problem with your posts, just some others). I'm not asking people to pretend I have a cheese factor of 0. I'm just asking them to have the common courtesy to accept that I actually am aware of my own cheese.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-19, 07:46 PM
2) Everyone who ignored my actual post in which I clearly labeled my cheese point total at the bottom, it is 1,000,016. Of course this has very little bearing on voting, since cheese is one of the 5 separate factors, and as such, my superior score in those easily puts me on even footings.You are entirely entitled to feel that way. We will see when it comes to voting.


3) The rules of the challenge supersede normal gestalt rules, indeed they must, because the gestalt rules as written do not actually allow you to play with them unless the DM fills in gaps.Completely agree. You can't get cheeze points for something that can't happen.


4) So in conclusion: Omnicaster is a great build because it was made by someone you like, but my build sucks because it was made by someone who doesn't have the respect of the community.

Omnicaster is expressedly and explicitly prohibited, along with the Omnisiifier, Pun-Pun, and other well-known branches of cheese.

I may or may not decide to actually dredge up Khan and maybe clean it up a bit.

Oh, you don't need a level of Binder to bind Nabareous, only a feat or two.

Douglas
2008-09-19, 08:08 PM
Oh, you don't need a level of Binder to bind Nabareous, only a feat or two.
The feats don't give you full benefits, though. In particular, they do not give the benefit that matters in this case - the ability damage fast healing. To get that, you must actually take a level in Binder.

Wolfpack
2008-09-20, 01:12 AM
Omnicaster is expressedly and explicitly prohibited, along with the Omnisiifier, Pun-Pun, and other well-known branches of cheese.

Um, I'm pretty sure you can't ban the Omnicaster because:

1) It isn't well known.
2) It isn't cheese.
3) It was designed specifically for gestalt challenges like this one.
4) It's not actually a very good arcane caster for gestalt and using dual progression PrCs for half it's levels.

ZeroNumerous
2008-09-20, 02:29 AM
The feats don't give you full benefits, though. In particular, they do not give the benefit that matters in this case - the ability damage fast healing. To get that, you must actually take a level in Binder.

Yes, but he could take Shape Soulmeld(Strongheart Vest) and the Open [X] chakra feet that gives him vest/heart/what-have-you. Then he has DR 1+Essentia vs Ability damage.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-20, 02:58 AM
Omnicaster is expressedly and explicitly prohibited, along with the Omnisiifier, Pun-Pun, and other well-known branches of cheese.

Explicitly? That's new to me. I had no idea I was as famous as Pun-Pun :smalltongue:

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-20, 06:07 PM
Explicitly? That's new to me. I had no idea I was as famous as Pun-Pun :smalltongue:

Omnicaster is just another Cindy with different window dressing, and not quite as optimized.

namo
2008-09-20, 06:32 PM
No love for the Swiftblade ?

Kurald Galain
2008-09-20, 06:40 PM
Omnicaster is just another Cindy with different window dressing, and not quite as optimized.

If you really think that, you haven't been paying attention.

Wolfpack
2008-09-20, 09:17 PM
Omnicaster is just another Cindy with different window dressing, and not quite as optimized.

Have you seen Cindy? Have you seen the Omnicaster?

The Omnicaster is medium to poor caster in every category except Ur-Priest which is full, with no ability to meta anything above the general power of a pure class.

Cindy is a straight Wizard with ridiculous persist buffage and overly metaed attack spell.

My build could be turned into a miniature Cindy who also spontaneously casts from the Beguiler/Cleric list. But I didn't write in those ten feats as Arcane Thesis and a bunch of metas specifically because I didn't want to make a Cindy.

The Omnicaster could never ever even remotely simulate either of Cindy's two main differentiating features.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-21, 02:50 AM
The Omnicaster is medium to poor caster in every category except Ur-Priest

Sure, if you call ninth-level spells "medium to poor"... :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, to put it less negatively, Cindy was written to be really good at wizarding. And she is. The Omnicaster was written to have access to every single kind of magic in the game (psionics, truenaming, incarna, etc). And he does. So one is a specialist, the other is a generalist. Also, the concept behind the Omnicaster is more than a little silly, which of course was the point to begin with. I don't think people would actually use it in play, but then I don't think most DMs would allow Cindy either if they were aware of what she could do.

Chronos
2008-09-21, 12:43 PM
Yes, but he could take Shape Soulmeld(Strongheart Vest) and the Open [X] chakra feet that gives him vest/heart/what-have-you. Then he has DR 1+Essentia vs Ability damage.Just noticed this. The bad news is that the feat to open the heart chakra is an epic feat. The good news is that you don't need it: The soulmeld itself grants DR vs. ability damage without being bound to a chakra. The bad news again is that it's debatable whether Strongheart Vest works with Hellfire: You explicitly can't use Hellfire if you're immune to the Con damage, and reducing one point of Con damage from something that only ever does one point at a time might be considered immunity to it, by some DMs.


And if we're going to be talking about the Omnicaster, I can do even better: The Master of Nine Magics
Azurin Bard 1/Warlock 1/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 9/Ur-Priest 1/Psychic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 3 // Binder 5/Chameleon 2/Anima Mage 10/Mystic Theurge 2/Shadowcaster 1

1: Bard//binder (2 flaws, Precocious Apprentice, Able Learner, Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil)
2: Warlock//binder
3: Ardent//binder (Practiced Manifester)
4: Cerebremancer (War2/Ard2)//binder
5: Cerebremancer (War3/Ard3)//binder
6: Ur-Priest//Chameleon (Alternate Spell Source)
7: Cerebremancer (War4/Ard4)//Chameleon
8: Psychic Theurge (Ur2/Ard5)//Anima Mage (bind6/war5)
9: Psychic Theurge (Ur3/Ard6)//Anima Mage (bind7/war6) (*metamagic*)
10: Sublime Chord//Anima Mage (bind8/war7)
11: Cerebremancer (sub2/ard7)//Anima Mage (bind9/war8)
12: Cerebremancer (war9/ard8)//Mystic Theurge (ur4/sub3) (Improved Binding)
13: Mystic Theurge (ur5/sub4)//Anima Mage (bind10/war10)
14: Cerebremancer (sub5/ard9)//Anima Mage (bind11/war11)
15: Cerebremancer (war12/ard10)//Mystic Theurge (ur6/sub6) (Truename Training)
16: Mystic Theurge (ur7/sub7)//Anima Mage (bind 12/war13)
17: Psychic Theurge (ur8/ard11)//Anima Mage (bind 13/war14) (Chaos shuffle bard weapon proficiencies) (Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind x2, Utterance of the Crafted Tool, Utterance of the Perfected Map, 3 Incarnum feats, Expanded Knowledge: Open Chakra)
18: Cerebremancer (sub8/ard12)//Anima Mage (bind 14/war15) (Martial Study)
19: Cerebremancer (war16/ard13)//Shadowcaster
20: Mystic Theurge (ur9/shad2)//Anima Mage (bind15/sub9)

OK, so technically, he's only a master of six magics, but he at least dabbles in the other three.
Arcane spells: Casts as a Sublime Chord 9, for 9th-level spells
Divine spells: Casts as an Ur-Priest 9, for 9th-level spells (assuming a Wis of 28)
Psionics: Has an Ardent manifester lever of 17, for 9th-level powers.
Invocations: Invokes as a Warlock 16, for Dark invokations
Incarnum: Has ten soulmelds shaped, any of which can be bound to a chakra and have up to four essentia invested
Pact magic: Binds as a 15th-level binder, with vestige choices as 17th level, for 8th-level vestiges
Truename magic: Can max ranks in True Speech, and has Perfected Map utterances
Shadow magic: Casts mysteries as a 2nd-level shadowcaster (the weakest magic in the build)
Sublime way: Has a 5th-level maneuver (IL 10)

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-21, 01:04 PM
Just noticed this. The bad news is that the feat to open the heart chakra is an epic feat. The good news is that you don't need it: The soulmeld itself grants DR vs. ability damage without being bound to a chakra. The bad news again is that it's debatable whether Strongheart Vest works with Hellfire: You explicitly can't use Hellfire if you're immune to the Con damage, and reducing one point of Con damage from something that only ever does one point at a time might be considered immunity to it, by some DMs.


And if we're going to be talking about the Omnicaster, I can do even better: The Master of Nine Magics
Azurin Bard 1/Warlock 1/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 9/Ur-Priest 1/Psychic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 3 // Binder 5/Chameleon 2/Anima Mage 10/Mystic Theurge 2/Shadowcaster 1

1: Bard//binder (2 flaws, Precocious Apprentice, Able Learner, Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil)
2: Warlock//binder
3: Ardent//binder (Practiced Manifester)
4: Cerebremancer (War2/Ard2)//binder
5: Cerebremancer (War3/Ard3)//binder
6: Ur-Priest//Chameleon (Alternate Spell Source)
7: Cerebremancer (War4/Ard4)//Chameleon
8: Psychic Theurge (Ur2/Ard5)//Anima Mage (bind6/war5)
9: Psychic Theurge (Ur3/Ard6)//Anima Mage (bind7/war6) (*metamagic*)
10: Sublime Chord//Anima Mage (bind8/war7)
11: Cerebremancer (sub2/ard7)//Anima Mage (bind9/war8)
12: Cerebremancer (war9/ard8)//Mystic Theurge (ur4/sub3) (Improved Binding)
13: Mystic Theurge (ur5/sub4)//Anima Mage (bind10/war10)
14: Cerebremancer (sub5/ard9)//Anima Mage (bind11/war11)
15: Cerebremancer (war12/ard10)//Mystic Theurge (ur6/sub6) (Truename Training)
16: Mystic Theurge (ur7/sub7)//Anima Mage (bind 12/war13)
17: Psychic Theurge (ur8/ard11)//Anima Mage (bind 13/war14) (Chaos shuffle bard weapon proficiencies) (Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind x2, Utterance of the Crafted Tool, Utterance of the Perfected Map, 3 Incarnum feats, Expanded Knowledge: Open Chakra)
18: Cerebremancer (sub8/ard12)//Anima Mage (bind 14/war15) (Martial Study)
19: Cerebremancer (war16/ard13)//Shadowcaster
20: Mystic Theurge (ur9/shad2)//Anima Mage (bind15/sub9)

OK, so technically, he's only a master of six magics, but he at least dabbles in the other three.
Arcane spells: Casts as a Sublime Chord 9, for 9th-level spells
Divine spells: Casts as an Ur-Priest 9, for 9th-level spells (assuming a Wis of 28)
Psionics: Has an Ardent manifester lever of 17, for 9th-level powers.
Invocations: Invokes as a Warlock 16, for Dark invokations
Incarnum: Has ten soulmelds shaped, any of which can be bound to a chakra and have up to four essentia invested
Pact magic: Binds as a 15th-level binder, with vestige choices as 17th level, for 8th-level vestiges
Truename magic: Can max ranks in True Speech, and has Perfected Map utterances
Shadow magic: Casts mysteries as a 2nd-level shadowcaster (the weakest magic in the build)
Sublime way: Has a 5th-level maneuver (IL 10)

One problem with the build:

Cerebramancer requires the ability to cast 2nd level spells. Warlocks don't cast x level spells, although they have a caster level. As such, Warlocks cannot qualify for Cerebramancer.

You could bypass this by using Eldrich Theurge to increase bard and lock, or Eldrich Disciple to increase Lock and Ur-Priest (probably the best route)

Same problem with Anima Mage. Warlocks count as arcane casters of the same level, but don't cast x level spells.

Chronos
2008-09-21, 03:25 PM
One problem with the build:

Cerebramancer requires the ability to cast 2nd level spells. Warlocks don't cast x level spells, although they have a caster level. As such, Warlocks cannot qualify for Cerebramancer.I'm advancing Warlock with those classes, but I'm using that solitary Bard level at the beginning with Precocious Apprentice to actually qualify for it. I later use that same 2nd-level spell, via Alternate Spell Source, to qualify for advancing Ur-Priest after only a single level.

Amusingly, though the build has a second-level spell at first level, it doesn't actually get a first level spell until character level 6. Bard doesn't normally get anything but cantrips at 1st.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-21, 03:37 PM
I'm advancing Warlock with those classes, but I'm using that solitary Bard level at the beginning with Precocious Apprentice to actually qualify for it. I later use that same 2nd-level spell, via Alternate Spell Source, to qualify for advancing Ur-Priest after only a single level.

Amusingly, though the build has a second-level spell at first level, it doesn't actually get a first level spell until character level 6. Bard doesn't normally get anything but cantrips at 1st.

You cannot advance casting on a class that does not qualify for the PrC.

Also, I don't see how you have 3rd level arcane spells for Sublime Chord

Wolfpack
2008-09-21, 03:57 PM
You cannot advance casting on a class that does not qualify for the PrC.

Yes you can. Classes state they advance one arcane casting class, ect. Not one arcane casting class which you used to qualify for this PrC.

That's why PrCs have lines about choosing which class you want to advance.

@Omnicaster. Yes I consider only being able to cast 9th level spells at level 20 with a poor casting stat and no abilities that usefully increase spells utility or power to be "medium," especially in Gestalt.

Thus the Omnicaster is a ridiculous Ur-Priest Caster (as all gestalt Ur-Priests are, with CLs in the stratosphere) a medium Wizard and Medium Psion, poor Shadowcaster/Warlock/Bard ect.

Chronos
2008-09-21, 04:19 PM
Also, I don't see how you have 3rd level arcane spells for Sublime ChordSame way I got 2nd level divine spells for Psychic Theurge, except in the other direction: I get a 3rd level divine spell from Ur-Priest, and I use Alternate Spell Source to turn it into an arcane spell.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-21, 05:25 PM
@Omnicaster.

Yeah, yeah, we get it. You feel you're not being taken seriously by the forum (as you said in earlier posts) so you retaliate by sniping at other people. Very mature behavior, that.


So anyway. It just struck me that I'm missing something in the first post, and that's the list of upcoming challenges, after this one. Are there still suggestions for that? Perhaps a 4E gestalt, if that even makes sense? :smalltongue:

Wolfpack
2008-09-21, 06:10 PM
Yeah, yeah, we get it. You feel you're not being taken seriously by the forum (as you said in earlier posts) so you retaliate by sniping at other people. Very mature behavior, that.

I'm not sniping at anyone. It's not my fault you deluded yourself into thinking that you had a build that better then average at every type of magic in the game.

Tough luck, the Omnicaster is average at some things, exceptional at one thing, and below average at others. If you ever thought otherwise you should really go over your own build again.

Chronos
2008-09-22, 12:00 AM
OK, I changed the template on mine from Fire-Souled (since I had the LA wrong) to Dark. I figure that switching to another +1 LA template is the easiest thing to do, without having to rearrange the entire rest of the build, and being a native of the Plane of Shadow can offer some advantages for a Shadowcraft Mage.

monty
2008-09-22, 12:05 AM
Planar bubble!

Ganurath
2008-09-22, 12:19 AM
And if we're going to be talking about the Omnicaster, I can do even better: The Master of Nine Magics
Azurin Bard 1/Warlock 1/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 9/Ur-Priest 1/Psychic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 3 // Binder 5/Chameleon 2/Anima Mage 10/Mystic Theurge 2/Shadowcaster 1

1: Bard//binder (2 flaws, Precocious Apprentice, Able Learner, Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil)
2: Warlock//binder
3: Ardent//binder (Practiced Manifester)
4: Cerebremancer (War2/Ard2)//binder
5: Cerebremancer (War3/Ard3)//binder
6: Ur-Priest//Chameleon (Alternate Spell Source)
7: Cerebremancer (War4/Ard4)//Chameleon
8: Psychic Theurge (Ur2/Ard5)//Anima Mage (bind6/war5)
9: Psychic Theurge (Ur3/Ard6)//Anima Mage (bind7/war6) (*metamagic*)
10: Sublime Chord//Anima Mage (bind8/war7)
11: Cerebremancer (sub2/ard7)//Anima Mage (bind9/war8)
12: Cerebremancer (war9/ard8)//Mystic Theurge (ur4/sub3) (Improved Binding)
13: Mystic Theurge (ur5/sub4)//Anima Mage (bind10/war10)
14: Cerebremancer (sub5/ard9)//Anima Mage (bind11/war11)
15: Cerebremancer (war12/ard10)//Mystic Theurge (ur6/sub6) (Truename Training)
16: Mystic Theurge (ur7/sub7)//Anima Mage (bind 12/war13)
17: Psychic Theurge (ur8/ard11)//Anima Mage (bind 13/war14) (Chaos shuffle bard weapon proficiencies) (Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind x2, Utterance of the Crafted Tool, Utterance of the Perfected Map, 3 Incarnum feats, Expanded Knowledge: Open Chakra)
18: Cerebremancer (sub8/ard12)//Anima Mage (bind 14/war15) (Martial Study)
19: Cerebremancer (war16/ard13)//Shadowcaster
20: Mystic Theurge (ur9/shad2)//Anima Mage (bind15/sub9)

OK, so technically, he's only a master of six magics, but he at least dabbles in the other three.
Arcane spells: Casts as a Sublime Chord 9, for 9th-level spells
Divine spells: Casts as an Ur-Priest 9, for 9th-level spells (assuming a Wis of 28)
Psionics: Has an Ardent manifester lever of 17, for 9th-level powers.
Invocations: Invokes as a Warlock 16, for Dark invokations
Incarnum: Has ten soulmelds shaped, any of which can be bound to a chakra and have up to four essentia invested
Pact magic: Binds as a 15th-level binder, with vestige choices as 17th level, for 8th-level vestiges
Truename magic: Can max ranks in True Speech, and has Perfected Map utterances
Shadow magic: Casts mysteries as a 2nd-level shadowcaster (the weakest magic in the build)
Sublime way: Has a 5th-level maneuver (IL 10)...Better? That's not superior magic, that's just wanton hedonism. Since when is ultimating spellcasting about having the most spells per day? May as well go straight Warlock//Dragon Shaman is that's the case.

Chronos
2008-09-22, 11:53 AM
It's better at what the Omnicaster does than the Omnicaster is, in that it achieves mastery of more different types of magic (what constitutes "mastery" varies from case to case, of course, since they don't all use similar mechanics). Both get 9th level arcane and divine spells and psionic powers, and Perfected Map truenaming, but mine gets 8th level vestiges compared to his 4th, Dark invocations to his Lesser, 10 soulmelds and 4 essentia to his 4 soulmelds and 2 essentia, and a 5th-level sublime maneuver where he has none at all. The only place where the Omnicaster beats the Master of Nine Magics is that Omni has shadowcasting as 5th level, instead of as 2nd.

Neither is as powerful as Cindy, but that wasn't the point of either.

Ganurath
2008-09-22, 01:27 PM
It's better at what the Omnicaster does than the Omnicaster is, in that it achieves mastery of more different types of magic (what constitutes "mastery" varies from case to case, of course, since they don't all use similar mechanics). Both get 9th level arcane and divine spells and psionic powers, and Perfected Map truenaming, but mine gets 8th level vestiges compared to his 4th, Dark invocations to his Lesser, 10 soulmelds and 4 essentia to his 4 soulmelds and 2 essentia, and a 5th-level sublime maneuver where he has none at all. The only place where the Omnicaster beats the Master of Nine Magics is that Omni has shadowcasting as 5th level, instead of as 2nd.

Neither is as powerful as Cindy, but that wasn't the point of either.Darkseer always gets a spell off in the surprise round no matter who's caught off guard, gets +6 DC to two of the favored Batman schools, adds damage to the spells from one of those schools, has caster level 21 on the key spells, and bypasses SR. It doesn't matter how many styles of magic that you master, what matters is your ability to use the resources available to the greatest effect. Omnicaster and similiar builds are so caught up in branching in to as many forms of magic as possible that they can't focus on their base. Finally, this is Ultimate Arcanist, not Ultimate Caster. I'm not sure the Omnicaster builds even qualify.

Draz74
2008-09-22, 03:09 PM
@Ganurath: I don't think anyone is disputing that your build is a better entry for this contest than the Omnicaster and Mo9M are. That's pretty obvious. (They were designed originally for a contest of "who can combine two types of magic best," where they sort of did fit in.) Talking about them is really more of an off-topic branch of the thread, not a claim that they should win this contest (except as a joke).


Right. That's great. So please let that reflect in the voting instead of having everyone insult me all over this thread. (Not you, I had no problem with your posts, just some others). I'm not asking people to pretend I have a cheese factor of 0. I'm just asking them to have the common courtesy to accept that I actually am aware of my own cheese.

To be fair, if memory serves, people insulted the Omnicaster all over his original thread, too, for being so cheesy. I know I did. :smallbiggrin: It was only later that his flamboyant rules abuse became enough of a joke to make him somewhat popular.