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View Full Version : Whip dagger? [3.5]



Mephit
2008-09-16, 02:25 PM
A simple question: (I considered asking it in the Q&A, but I don't think it has anything to do with RAW)

Did the Whip Dagger from 3.0E ever get reprinted in 3.5?

Medic
2008-09-16, 02:39 PM
Not to my memory however it should remain unchanged from 3.0.

insecure
2008-09-16, 02:40 PM
I don't know - I don't own all the books, but a way to find out whether it's been done or not, is to do a google search on it.

Darrin
2008-09-16, 02:57 PM
Not to my memory however it should remain unchanged from 3.0.

The Whip Dagger and Mighty Whip Dagger were reprinted in the Arms & Equipment Guide, which is still 3.0 material, but still legal for use in 3.5 rules. However, there were some changes in 3.5 in how some weapons work.

In 3.0, a whip is treated as a ranged weapon with a 15' max range and no range increment. For the purposes of feats/abilities/AoO/etc., it's treated as a ranged weapon.

In 3.5, a whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15' reach but does not threaten any of the squares within that area. For the purposes of feats/abilities/AoO/etc., it's treated as a melee weapon (finessable).

You can still use whip daggers with the same stats as they are described in the A&EG, except you'd treat them as melee weapons as they are in 3.5. I believe the only mechanical difference is you do not incur an AoO for attacking with a whip dagger, and you'd use strength for your hit bonus unless you were using weapon finesse. A mighty whip dagger would be unnecessary, since you'd get your strength bonus on damage with an ordinary whip dagger. I think you can also respond to an AoO by making a melee attack with a whip dagger so long as you had some other weapon that was threatening your opponent (armor spikes, spiked shield, etc.).

Person_Man
2008-09-16, 03:43 PM
It was also reprinted in Dungeon and Dragon magazines. The awl pike (also Dragon mag) also has 15 ft of reach. Or you can take a level of Pyrokineticist or one of its variants, which deals energy damage, and has the huge advantage of using touch attacks.

Lyndworm
2008-09-16, 04:38 PM
Whip-Dagger
(DU134 p50) (DR353 p28)
1Hand
1d6, 19-20/x2, Slashing
25gp, 3lbs, Hardness 2, 5HP
Trip, Disarm +2, Finesse
Shared Proficiency (Whip)
Reach 15 & Threaten Adjacent
Attacking generates an Attack
of Opportunity

Ta-da!

Zack

monty
2008-09-16, 06:13 PM
If you have access to it, is there any reason to use a regular whip besides flavor?

Kizara
2008-09-16, 06:28 PM
If you have access to it, is there any reason to use a regular whip besides flavor?

Do you consider "It's incredibly stupid" merely a 'flavor' concern? I mean, its a dagger whip for frick sakes. That's up there with sword-chucks on the BS scale. Blows the spiked chain out of the park.

monty
2008-09-16, 06:33 PM
Since it's not a mechanical difference, I'd call it flavor. I was just wondering if there's some hidden drawback that makes the regular whip not completely inferior in every way.

And don't insult the sword-chucks. Dr. Swordopolis won't like that.

Enlong
2008-09-16, 06:36 PM
Do you consider "It's incredibly stupid" merely a 'flavor' concern? I mean, its a dagger whip for frick sakes. That's up there with sword-chucks on the BS scale. Blows the spiked chain out of the park.

So, is this a whip with a dagger attached to the end of it? Or a whip made out of dagger-like metal links bound together by wire that collapses into a dagger for storage? The first would have serious problems, and the other is perhaps even more implausible. To have that work, the weapon would have to be awakened, perhaps by some evil intelligence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_Calibur) to not go wildly off the mark with each swing, and then come back to kill the wielder.

Oh, and the whip deals nonlethal damage, like a sap. So it's good for some things, but not most things.

monty
2008-09-16, 06:40 PM
Honestly, how often are you going to need to do nonlethal damage with a reach weapon against something with no armor?

Chronos
2008-09-16, 07:05 PM
When you're a Duskblade channeling beneficial touch spells to your allies.

OK, so that's a long shot.

nobodylovesyou4
2008-09-16, 08:39 PM
personally, i think the whip should be used by one creature and one creature only, and that is a succubus. because she totally would.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-09-16, 09:52 PM
personally, i think the whip should be used by one creature and one creature only, and that is a succubus. because she totally would.

Dont... give... me... ideas...

:smallwink:

kpenguin
2008-09-16, 10:13 PM
Whip becomes more useful when you're dealing with actually grabbing things with it via the Lasher PrC. The dagger-whip does damage to anything it grabs a hold onto.

Ascension
2008-09-16, 10:17 PM
Dont... give... me... ideas...

:smallwink:

I believe this calls for some of my homebrew. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70961)

SeeKay
2008-09-16, 10:23 PM
The "Whip Dagger" does exist in 3.5 splat books, so it did make it from 3.0 to 3.5.

As to the question of "do they exist", yes they did and still do. It's a whip with a metal spike sharpened on the sides at the tip instead of a large knot. It still has the leather fringe and it you can still crack it. The problems with it is the "blade" can get stuck or shake off. You will not find a whip maker that will make one unless you special request it. A scourge does similar things and with less things flying off of it.

Why use it? Why use a regular whip? ...Um... Your trying for an "Indiana Jones" or a Dominatrix/Demon Seductress look. Seriously, there are a ton better weapons, so if you are holding any type of whip, you are doing it for flavor. Might as well let the PC's do "real" damage while they are at it.

BobVosh
2008-09-17, 02:04 AM
So am I the only person who has always wanted to make a large creature with a whip and go down the whirlwind tree...to wait for the perfect moment...the exact time to strike.

The busiest market day of the year. Go down to the most crowded area, whirlwind for Nonlethal to everyone in a 20 (or is it 25? large just add 5 ft to a 15 ft? Never really figured that out) foot radius. It would be hilarious. A 50 foot circle of unconcious peasants! (20+10 for body+20)

Triaxx
2008-09-17, 05:02 AM
I've always preferred to rule it's non-lethal damage only on armored targets, though even then does lethal on a natural 20. Because those things do break the skin. And it hurts.

A dagger whip is just like a regular one, to keep from it hitting you, you've got to keep it in motion.

AstralFire
2008-09-17, 05:28 AM
So am I the only person who has always wanted to make a large creature with a whip and go down the whirlwind tree...to wait for the perfect moment...the exact time to strike.

The busiest market day of the year. Go down to the most crowded area, whirlwind for Nonlethal to everyone in a 20 (or is it 25? large just add 5 ft to a 15 ft? Never really figured that out) foot radius. It would be hilarious. A 50 foot circle of unconcious peasants! (20+10 for body+20)

My one ever uberoptimal build in 3.5 was a Dervish/Lasher build with Whip Daggers and Hamstring.

:D

I could probably do a better job of it now, too.

Person_Man
2008-09-17, 08:36 AM
Note that whips of all varieties don't threaten. So no AoO. So unless you've got a very whip specific PrC combo, you should generally avoid using them.

Bandededed
2008-09-17, 08:46 AM
So am I the only person who has always wanted to make a large creature with a whip and go down the whirlwind tree...to wait for the perfect moment...the exact time to strike.

The busiest market day of the year. Go down to the most crowded area, whirlwind for Nonlethal to everyone in a 20 (or is it 25? large just add 5 ft to a 15 ft? Never really figured that out) foot radius. It would be hilarious. A 50 foot circle of unconcious peasants! (20+10 for body+20)

Well, normal reach weapons double your reach - no matter your size. Going off of that, any creature with a whip would have it's reach, um, triple...

So with a large creature - 60 foot circle of death. Get pumped a couple of size categories for extra KO'ing power.

Edit: Just reread the MM entry for a balor, and apparently you are correct with 20 ft reach. So, if you are wielding a reach weapon as a large creature, your reach is the same as it would be with an appropriately sized whip. Hmm. If you start getting larger, then all of a sudden those reach weapons have a longer reach than the whip.

I iz confuzorzed.

Ascension
2008-09-17, 09:14 AM
The way I understand it is that reach weapons always add 5 ft of reach and whips always add 10..

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-17, 03:52 PM
I believe this calls for some of my homebrew. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70961)As long as we're going homebrew... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45529)

Also, there are a few things that can use a whip better than anything else. Duskblades are the prime example, IMHO, especially with the Duskblade/Bard/Sublime Chord build. In that case, it's the best way of delivering buffs in the first round of combat.

Chronos
2008-09-17, 05:34 PM
In that case, it's the best way of delivering buffs in the first round of combat.Do note that spells with a duration delivered via full-attack channel have their durations reduced to 1 round (or at least, so says Crystalkeep).

Triaxx
2008-09-17, 05:54 PM
I've found that most deaths which are easily prevented by buffs are fired in the first round. Death effects, save-or-die's. And one round is enough for the other casters to get themselves in order.