PDA

View Full Version : [3.5 base class] The Magus



MammonAzrael
2008-09-20, 01:14 AM
Magus

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/spellcomp_gallery/92294.jpg
"The world cries out, but none listen. To those who take the time, understanding and whispered power will flow like a river."


- A'arum Zhul, a master magus

A magus is the inheritor of the most ancient arcane traditions, which they believe are the purest expression of these mystic arts. While wizards glean their arcane secrets from dusty tomes and dangerous studies, and sorcerers tap into bastard bloodlines with reckless abandon, magi connect with the world around them on a fundamental and primal level. Before there were nations or wars or conflict, when the races were newly formed and the world was still young, life was woven inextricably into the fabric of magic. While the gods wielded their divine might across the land, the worlds they walked in harbored a wellspring of arcane magic, untouched by any hand. Those with the strength and fortitude necessary could commune with the world, with the life-force all around them, and do to this day. They may sit for hours, listening to the whispers of power and knowledge, of how the world works and the nature of all things. Such individuals must be strong in both mind and body, for the glimpses of truths and wisdoms take their toll on all who hear them.

The longer a magus listens to the world around him, the more apparent it becomes that everything is connected with this powerful arcane force, it is suffused in every particle of existence. The ground and sky, the heavens and stars, the far off domains of the gods, even the very nature of life and death are forever entwined with it. And as they become more practiced with wielding this most basic foundation of reality, nothing is truly beyond their capabilities, not even the divine. With this power comes a peace and understanding, and most use these secrets of magic to guide their peoples. This is the wisdom that has been handed down for generations untold, magi quietly guiding and advising their fellows. Not with the iron righteousness of the gods, but the gentle help of common sense.

Adventures: Magi can go adventuring for many reasons, but most often you will find one traveling to gain a deeper understand of the world, seeking places of legend, ancient and eternal. Others will be questing to protect something important to them, often a village or family member. Rarely do they seek power for powerís sake, and those that do are scorned by other magi, seeing it as a perversion of the sacred trust they have formed over eons.

Characteristics: Powerful magi are capable of nearly anything imaginable. However, the secrets they know deep in their souls are few and precious. They can cast spells of terrible power and incredible might. While often not as skilled or long-lasting as casters that have a more ďrefinedĒ approach to the arcane, a magus has much greater natural control over the spells he casts. So deep is this connect that these secrets evolve from simple spells into extraordinary talents that can be called forth anywhere.

Alignment: Magi tend toward neutral alignments. While extremes do exist, their natural desire for balance and harmony evens out the more radical desires. The knowledge that all things are connected helps them to see less differences between ideologies, for on the deepest levels even Celestia and the Abyss are connected.

Religion: A magus will rarely worship any god, as the divine seems less infallible when such a primordial knowledge exists and teaches knowledge. That said, gods that are revered will often by gods of peace or balance, gods of the world that arenít driven by prejudice or righteousness.

Background: Early in life, one may start on the path to being a magus through patience and hard work, listening to the teachings of elder magi and the world. While rare, some do find discover their ties to the world through the course of their lives, often after some tragic event that silences outside distractions from their mind. Those that come to it later in life usually do so seeking knowledge and insight into the workings of existence.

Races: Any race can listen to the heartbeat of the world, the essence that connects all things. Dwarves have a natural predilection for being magi, as their lives of deep thoughts and quiet places can often lead to introspection and understanding. Races that revere nature and have a strong connection with druids are much more rare, as they often attribute what they see to the divine.

Other Classes: While a magus may respect the differing approach of others, they will often still feel their method is superior to that of the sorcerer or wizard, and have a natural tendency to look down upon other methods of arcane casting. This feeling is often returned in kind. Divine casters they respect, but often feel are misguided. Those that use their muscle or wit to survive and thrive have the respect of the magus, as not everyone is should take the same path.

Role: A magus can take nearly any role that the party needs, from controlling their enemies in battle to summoning monsters to strengthening their allies. However, once chosen a magiís path is restricted, and they cannot fill many roles at once.

Adaptation: As long as there are arcane casters in the world a magus can find a home. They can channel the Weave in Faeírun, be connected to life in Eberron, or even tap into the underlying foundations or life in Athas.

Game Rule Information
Magi have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Constitution is the most important stat for a magus, as the tougher a magus is, the more and more powerful spells he can command. It determines what levels of spell they can cast, as well as any bonus spells he receives. Intelligence is important to the magus that casts spells upon his enemies, for the smarter he is the better he is able to cast his spells. It dictates the save DCs for their spells. Wisdom is a stat that all magi respect, for the wiser he is, the deeper his understanding of the arcane world is. It determines if he gains any bonus spells known.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6
Starting Age: As bard.
Starting Gold: As barbarian.

Class Skills
The magus' class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Table: The Magus
{table=head]Level|
BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th| 7th|8th|9th

1st|
+0|+0|+0|+2|Fundamentals, summon familiar|1|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---

2nd|
+1|+0|+0|+3|Sudden extend|2|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---

3rd|
+1|+1|+1|+3||3|1|---|---|---|---|---|---|---

4th|
+2|+1|+1|+4||4|2|---|---|---|---|---|---|---

5th|
+2|+1|+1|+4|Sudden empower|4|3|1|---|---|---|---|---|---

6th|
+3|+2|+2|+5|Innate gifts|4|4|2|---|---|---|---|---|---

7th|
+3|+2|+2|+5||4|4|3|1|---|---|---|---|---

8th|
+4|+2|+2|+6|Sudden widen|4|4|4|2|---|---|---|---|---

9th|
+4|+3|+3|+6||4|4|4|3|1|---|---|---|---

10th|
+5|+3|+3|+7|Instinctive mimicry|4|4|4|4|2|---|---|---|---

11th|
+5|+3|+3|+7|Sudden maximize|4|4|4|4|3|1|---|---|---

12th|
+6/+1|+4|+4|+8||4|4|4|4|4|2|---|---|---

13th|
+6/+1|+4|+4|+8||4|4|4|4|4|3|1|---|---

14th|
+7/+2|+4|+4|+9|Sudden quicken|4|4|4|4|4|4|2|---|---

15th|
+7/+2|+5|+5|+9||4|4|4|4|4|4|3|1|---

16th|
+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|Greater instinctive mimicry|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|2|---

17th|
+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|Sudden mastery|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|1

18th|
+9/+4|+6|+6|+11||4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|2

19th|
+9/+4|+6|+6|+11||4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3

20th|
+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Magus ascendant|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4[/table]

Table: Magus Spells Known
{table=head]Level|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|1|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---

2nd|2|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---

3rd|2|1|---|---|---|---|---|---|---

4th|3|2|---|---|---|---|---|---|---

5th|3|2|1|---|---|---|---|---|---

6th|3|3|2|---|---|---|---|---|---

7th|3|3|2|1|---|---|---|---|---

8th|3|3|3|2|---|---|---|---|---

9th|3|3|3|2|1|---|---|---|---

10th|3|3|3|3|2|1|---|---|---|---

11th|3|3|3|3|2|2|---|---|---

12th|3|3|3|3|3|2|---|---|---

13th|3|3|3|3|3|3|1|---|---

14th|3|3|3|3|3|3|2|---|---

15th|3|3|3|3|3|3|2|1|---

16th|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|2|---

17th|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|2|1

18th|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|2

19th|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|2

20th|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies
Magi are proficient with all simple weapons. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields. Their deep connection with arcane magic means the somatic components of their spells are simple, so members of this class can cast magus spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. A magus still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells derived from other classes. In addition, if a magus wears medium or heavy armor, or uses a shield, he incurs the same chance of arcane spell failure as any other arcane caster when casting a spell with a somatic component.

Spells
A magus casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

To learn or cast a spell, a magus must have an Constitution score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a magusís spell is 10 + the spell level + the magusís Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a magus can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Magus. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Constitution score.

A magusís selection of spells is extremely limited. A magus begins play knowing two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new magus level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Magus Spells Known. In addition, he receives bonus spells known if he has a high Wisdom score (use same table that determines extra spells per day). These extra spells come only from his base Wisdom score, and do not count temporary boost from things like spells or magical items. Wisdom damage/drain do not make him lose any extra spells known. These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the magus has gained some understanding of by study. The magus canít use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered magus level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a magus can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the magus "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spellís level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level magus spell the magus can cast. A magus may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a magus need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells heíll cast.

When a magus casts a spell, he is channeling the power of the fabric of existence, which is exhausting. Whenever a magus casts a spell he takes nonlethal damage equal to 2x the spell level. If he is immune to nonlethal damage, he takes normal damage instead. This damage cannot be prevented in any way, and can only be healed naturally (it can't be healed with magic, fast healing, regeneration, etc).

Familiar


A magus can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. A familiar is a magical beast that resembles a small animal and is unusually tough and intelligent. The creature serves as a companion and servant.

The magus chooses the kind of familiar he gets. As the magus advances in level, his familiar also increases in power.

If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the magus, the magus must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per magus level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a magusís experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiarís demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.

A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time.

Fundamentals


Their instinctual understanding of the world and the power of the arcane allows them to manipulate that power in minor ways whenever they wish. At 1st level a magus may choose 4 0-level arcane spells (they need not be the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list). He may cast those spells at-will as spell-like abilities. At 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th class levels he may learn another 0-level spell. At 8th class level these become supernatural abilities, and at 14th class level they become extraordinary abilities.

Sudden Extend


At 2nd level, a magus can alter the spells he casts, granting them a life much greater than they would normally posses. He gains Sudden Extend as a bonus feat. If he already has the feat, he can choose a different metamagic feat.

Sudden Empower


At 5th level, a magus can enhance his spells, feeding more power into a single casting. He gains Sudden Empower as a bonus feat, even if he doesnít meet the prerequisites. If he already has the feat, he can choose a different metamagic feat.

Innate Gifts


At 6th level, the fundamental power that the magus channels begins to merge with his very being, becoming a natural extension of his mind and soul. 1st level spells cast by a magus become spell-like abilities. At 8th level, 2nd level spells cast by a magus become spell-like abilities. At 10th level, 1st level spells cast by a magus become supernatural abilities and 3rd level spells become spell-like abilities. At 12th level, 2nd level spells cast by a magus become supernatural abilities and 4th level spells become spell-like abilities. At 14th level, 3rd level spells cast by a magus become supernatural abilities and 5th level spells become spell-like abilities. At 16th level, 1st level spells cast by a magus become extraordinary abilities, 4th level spells become supernatural abilities, and 6th level spells become spell-like abilities. At 18th level, 2nd level spells cast by a magus become extraordinary abilities, 5th level spells become supernatural abilities, and 7th level spells become spell-like abilities. And at 20th level, 3rd level spells cast by a magus become extraordinary abilities, 6th level spells become supernatural abilities, and 8th level spells become spell-like abilities.

A magus must still pay the experience cost and have the material components of any spell he cast, regardless of what type of ability it is.

Even though his spells turn into spell-like, supernatural, and extraordinary abilities, a magus must still expend a spell slot of the appropriate level to cast his spells; they do not become at-will abilities. He may still apply metamagic effects to them.

This ability is based off class level, not character level. So a Magus 10/Loremaster 6 still casts 1st level spells as supernatural abilities, not extraordinary abilities.

Sudden Widen


At 8th level, a magus can spread the effects of his spells over a great area, letting itís connection with all things expand itís influence. He gains Sudden Widen as a bonus feat, even if he doesnít meet the prerequisites. If he already has the feat, he can choose a different metamagic feat.

Instinctive Mimicry (Sp)


At 10th level, a magus can mold the magic around him in unfamiliar ways, copying the abilities of others that he has experienced. He can attempt to mimic a spell he doesn't know that has been cast on him by someone else. A number of times per day equal to his Wisdom modifier (min. 1 per day), a magus may make a Spellcraft check, with a DC equal to 15 + 2x the spell level for arcane spells or 20 + 2x the spell level for divine spells, to duplicate the spell. You cannot take 10 on this check. This uses a spell slot one higher than the spell would normally use. If the check fails the use and the spell slot are still spent for the day.

These spells deal nonlethal or lethal damage appropriate to the spell slot the magus spends to cast them.

Sudden Maximize


At 11th level, a magus can greatly increase the power of his spells, gaining incredible results. He gains Sudden Maximize as a bonus feat, even if he doesnít meet the prerequisites. If he already has the feat, he can choose a different metamagic feat.

Sudden Quicken


At 14th level, a magus can call the powers of the world to him with remarkable speed. He gains Sudden Quicken as a bonus feat, even if he doesnít meet the prerequisites. If he already has the feat, he can choose a different metamagic feat.

Greater Instinctive Mimicry (Sp)


At 16th level, a magus can manipulate his magic to an even greater degree, creating effects he has only seen, using his natural understanding to replicate the effects. He can attempt to mimic a spell he doesn't know that he has seen cast. The magus may make a spellcraft check, with a DC equal to 30 + 2x the spell level for arcane spells or 35 + 2x the spell level for divine spells, to duplicate the spell. You cannot take 10 on this check. This uses a spell slot two higher than the spell would normally and uses one of your daily uses of Instinctive Mimicry. If the check fails the use and the spell slot are still spent for the day.

These spells deal nonlethal or lethal damage appropriate to the spell slot the magus spends to cast them.

Sudden Mastery (Su)


At 17th level, a magus can command his magic in a precise and skilled manner. He may apply Sudden metamagic feats a combined number of times per day equal to his Constitution modifier instead of once per day each (min 5).

Magus Ascendant


At 20th level, a magus undergoes an incredible transformation, becoming one with the power that he has wielded for so long. He is magic. his type changes to outsider, though unlike other outsiders, the magus can still be brought back from the dead as if he were a member of his previous creature type. He is immune to any spell of 3rd level or lower (though he may still be affected by them if he wishes) and gains SR of 20 + half his class level + his Constitution modifier. He no longer needs to eat or sleep and only needs to for meditate two hours per day to renew spells. Finally, as long as he has unused spell slot he gains regeneration (overcome by mundane damage) equal to the highest unused spell slot divided by 3. This regeneration can heal nonlethal damage taken from the magus casting spells.





So what do you think? A sort of Con-based caster, that focuses on it's spells becoming more natural and innate as it becomes more powerful. Should some numbers be tweaked? Should I make expensive material components still be paid like EXP (If so, should it be always, or should supernatural or extraordinary abilities not have to pay)? Thanks for the feed back, I hope you like it!!

Oh, and any fluff sprucing is welcome too. :smallsmile:

And just for fun, I've added in an Epic progression!
Yes, Epic is stupid and overpowered and broken and yadayadayada. This is more for fun than anything else. Additionally, I feel that a character would need a very strong reason to remain single class and not take a PrC and current Epic progressions just don't cut the mustard.

Epic Magus

Hit die: d6
Skill points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

Table: Epic Magus
Level|Special
21st|Intuitive spells
22nd|Epic gifts
23rd|Intuitive spells
24th|Epic fundamentals
25th|Intuitive spells
26th|
27th|Intuitive spells
28th|
29th|Intuitive spells
30th|Epic ascension

Intuitive Spells

At each level a magus receives Intuitive Spells he chooses a spell level on the table below and adds that many spells of that level to his known spell list.

Table: Epic Magus Intuitive Spells
{table=head]Level|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th
21|3|2|1|--|--|--|--
23|4|3|2|1|--|--|--
25|5|4|3|2|1|--|--
27|6|5|4|3|2|1|--
29|7|6|5|4|3|2|1[/table]

Epic Gifts

At 22nd level 4th level spells cast by a magus become extraordinary abilities, 7th level spells become supernatural abilities, and 9th level spells become spell-like abilities. At 24th level 5th level spells cast by a magus become extraordinary abilities and 8th level spells become supernatural abilities. At 26th level 6th level spells cast by a magus become extraordinary abilities and 9th level spells become supernatural abilities. At 28th level 7th level spells cast by a magus become extraordinary abilities. At 30th level 8th level spells cast by a magus become extraordinary abilities.

Epic Fundamentals

At 24th level a magus has gained such rapport with the fabric of magic that weaker spells no longer take the toll they used to. He may cast any 1st level spell the he knows at will. At 26th level he may cast any 2nd level spells he knows at will. At 28th level he may cast any 3rd level spells he knows at will. And at 30th level he may cast any 4th level spells he knows at will.

Any spell he casts this way no longer has a material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The magus does not take non-lethal damage for any spell cast this way.

Epic Ascension

Something appropriately stupid. At this point you're writing your own rules anyways.

New Feats for the Magus

Extra Fundamentals [General]
Your strong connection to magic grants you with the knowledge of many minor tricks.
Prerequisites: Con 13, Fundamentals
Benefit: You may choose up to three 0-level arcane spells and add them to the spells that he cast as spell-like abilities with Fundamentals (they become supernatural abilities at 8th level and extraordinary at 14th).
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.

Familiar Focus [General]
Your familiar can aid you as you cast your spells, channeling more power into the magic, though it is draining to do so.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Innate Gifts
Benefit: Three times per day, whenever you cast a spell which allows a save, you may increase the save DC of that spell by 2 by having your familiar take nonlethal damage equal to the spell's level. The familiar must be within 5 ft. of you at the time of casting and cannot be rendered unconscious from the nonlethal damage to use this ability.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. Each time you do the number of times you can use this ability per day increases by 3.

Innate Spellcaster [General]
Your connection to the arcane is deep and strong.
Prerequisites: Innate Gifts, Spellcraft 5 ranks
Benefit: Your level of magus is considered to be 4 higher for determining the benefits of Innate Gifts. This benefit cannot increase your magus level to higher than your Hit Dice. However, even if you cannot benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you late gain Hit Dice in levels other than magus, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus.

Practiced Mimicry [General]
You have cast many spells that you do not actually know, acquiring great skill in improvising the spells you are copying.
Prerequisites: Instinctive Mimicry, Spellcraft 15 ranks
Benefit: You may take 10 on the spellcraft checks for instinctive mimicry.

Sudden Improvisation [Metamagic]
You can modify and enhance the power of your spells at great personal cost as you channel the magic through your body.
Prerquisites: Con 15, any three Metamagic feats
Benefit: When you apply metamagic to a spell you may choose to not have the spell slot the spell uses increase. If you do, when you cast the spell you take nonlethal damage equal to 4 times the spell slot used plus 4 times the level increase of the metamagic feat used. If you are immune to nonlethal damage you take normal damage instead, which cannot be reduced by any means. This feat cannot be used with Heighten Spell.

For example, if a magus used this feat to apply Maximize to a magic missile it would use a 1st level spell slot, and the magus would take 18 nonlethal damage when he cast the spell (he still takes nonlethal damage as normal for casting a spell).

If a wizard used this feat to apply Empower and Quicken to a fireball it would use a 3rd level spell slot, and the wizard would take 44 (16 + 28) nonlethal damage when he cast the spell.

Edits and Updates as of 3/22/2011:Edit 1:
Added the Sudden metamagic feats as bonus feats.
Added Sudden Mastery class feature.
Added Instinctive Mimicry class feature.
Removed the Vital Wellspring class feature.
Edit 2:
Added a WIS mod/day limit on Instinctive Mimicry.
Increased the spell slot used by Instinctive Mimicry to SL+1 and SL+2 respectively.
Removed the Hour/WIS mod limit on Instinctive Mimicry.
Removed Decipher Script and Use Magical Device from the Magus Class Skills.
Reduced total spells known by 1 for each spell level.
Added the drawback of taking nonlethal/lethal damage whenever a spell is cast.
Reduced Spell/day progression and max by 2.
Edit 2.5:
Removed Spot as a Magus class skill.
allowed damage done by casting healable by magic.
Clarified that the 16th lv ability of IM uses a daily attempt.
Changed Knowledge class skill from all to Arcana, Geography, Nature, Religion, and The Planes.
Edit 3:
Added Magus Ascendant ability.
Made Sudden Mastery an Su ability.
Edit 4:
Split the second half of Instinctive Mimicry into it's own ability, Greater Instinctive Mimicry.
Made Fundamentals based on class level, not character level.
Made Innate Gifts based on class level instead of character level.
Clarified Innate Gifts that spells do not become At-Will as the turn into various abilities.
If a check is failed for IM or GIM the daily use and the spell slot are still spent.
You can't take 10 on the IM or GIM checks.
Changed Greater Instinctive Mimicry to only copy spells a magus has seen cast, not heard of.
The damage casting a spell deals can no longer be healed with magic.
Instinctive Mimicry can now only copy spells that have bee cast on him by others.
Removed Spell Turning and the ooze type from Magus Ascendant.
Changed Magus Ascendant from only counting beneficial effects of both types to all effects.
Reduced all Spells known by 1 to increase Wis dependence.
Edit 5:
Reduced the spell resistance from Magus Ascendant from 25 + class level to 20 + class level.
Added epic progression for giggles.
Edit 6, 3/15/2011:
Cleaned up formatting
Changed IM and GIM to SLAs
Changed Magus Ascendant by adding the ressurection clause and adding the regeneration.Edit 7, 3/21/2011:
Added a lot of fluff and formatting
Changed fundamentals from beign restricted to the sorcerer/wizard list to being able to select any 0 level arcane spellsEDIT 8, 3/22/2011
Added new feats
Made a note on Innate Gifts that you can still apply metamagic to spells that have changed
Changed Sudden Mastery to a minimum of 5, since you gain 5 sudden metamagics for free
Added weapon and armor proficienciesRemoved material:
Vital Wellspring(Originally acquired at lv 20)
A magus may apply a metamagic feat to a spell he is casting without increasing the spells level by taking Constitution damage equal to the number of levels the metamagic feat would've increased the spell. This Constitution damage cannot be reduced by abilities that reduce the number of levels metamagic applies, like the Easy metamagic feat or the Improved metamagic Incantatrix class ability, nor can it be prevented in any way.

thegurullamen
2008-09-20, 02:14 AM
I like the idea of Su and Ex'ing everything over time, but this class is little more than a Con Sorc with a weak capstone at the moment. And SLAing everything is asking for trouble with XP Focus spells. I recommend incorporating some of the flavor elements from MoIncarnum which is for many the baseline for Con based weird-caster-y-things. Maybe essentia metamagic? Who knows? You definitely need more class abilities because this thing suffers from the same things the Sorc class does (and Innate Gifts does not count; it's one ability.) I'd say at least three abilities staggered over the twenty levels ala Innate Gifts might work out.

Please retool the capstone. Assuming a 34 Con (arbitrary but it sounds right for a level 20 PC), you've got 15 levels of free metamagic before you gimp yourself into being unable to cast your best spells. It doesn't seem worth it to stick with this class for that long when you can just drop some cash on meta rods. That, and it's been done before; Hellfire Warlock.

Fiendish Quickening is awesome once 5th levels become SLAs, though. Free quickened teleports for a 6th level spell? Usually not worth the expended slots, but awesome as hell.

MammonAzrael
2008-09-21, 01:24 AM
I had never even considered essentia! Interesting...perhaps some abilities to invest it in could be just what we need. And it fits the theme (in a general sort of way). Maybe a very slow progression of essentia with...hmm...I need to look through Magic of Incarnum again for ideas.

The capstone I really wasn't happy with, but couldn't think of much else when I posted the class. Any suggestions or ideas are welcome. Metamagic was just the only thing I could think of.

I'd like to put in some non-spell-related abilities for the class, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment (it's been a looong day). I agree that it's a bit feature-short, and I like my classes to have sufficient reasons to consider taking a full 20 in them.

Thanks for the ideas, and I'll look over MoI tomorrow!

thegurullamen
2008-09-21, 01:49 AM
Well, considering the magic is innate, you could have it do things that would make a Sorc weep. For example, x/day, you could have it make a Spellcraft check to cast a spell it knows of but doesn't know. Or once per day, add a random/predetermined/random-from-a-predetermined-pool spell from the Sor/Wiz spell list that he doesn't know to his known spells for 1 round per CL. Make sudden metas his bonus feats.

Personally, I think a blue mage route might be good. Have him swap out spells he knows for spells he's experienced on the fly. (Of the same level of course, but not necessarily from the same spell list. This may need to be hammered out.)

Non spell based things? How about innate bonuses to physical skills/characteristics like skills, movement speed or eventually attributes (measured in minutes or rounds)?

MammonAzrael
2008-09-21, 03:29 PM
Added some stuff, removed the capstone, though I'm still pondering what would make a good one. It needs to relate to casting, since that's the main class feature, and some way of making it even more a natural part of the magus. Hmmm...

I decided to avoid essentia, so I didn't over-complicate the class. Though the idea has made me start tinkering with a incarnum-using caster, a "spellmelder."

Still tossing around the idea of non-caster things, but no solid ideas yet. Perhaps just gaining Ex spells is enough.

Oh, and what's this fiendish quicken you mention in your first post?

Lert, A.
2008-09-21, 04:12 PM
Here's where I have some difficulty (broken down a bit):


To learn or cast a spell, a magus must have an Constitution score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.

The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a magusís spell is 10 + the spell level + the magusís Intelligence modifier.

In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Constitution score.

In addition, he receives bonus spells known if he has a high Wisdom score (use same table that determines extra spells per day).

As it is currently written you use three abilities for spellcasting, two of which - Con and Wis - provide bonus spells per day, the other - Int - used only for save DC.

Any character on a point-buy system would be badly damaged. I believe your intent was to use two main stat, and this I would agree with.

I like thegurullamen's gun mage idea for learning/ swapping out spells on the fly.

MammonAzrael
2008-09-21, 04:24 PM
Yes, the slight MAD was intended. It's never made any sense to me why almost all spellcasters get to be SAD. Melee characters typically need to focus on several stats to be effective, why should casters be any different?

The only Stat you really need is Con, at 19. A high DC from Int and the extra known spells from Wis are extras, not necessary for a functional caster. This class doesn't really need Str or Cha at all, and is fine with a mediocre Dex. And Wis does not add extra bonus spells per day. It adds extra spells known.

The way I see it is: Con is the primary casting stat. A magus must be strong of body to learn these secrets, and cast them. That's why the spell levels you can cast, and the bonus spells per day are dictated by Con, what you can cast is a by-product of how tough you are. Int for the DC represents how good you are at manipulating your spells, and how well you cast them. And finally Wis granting you bonus spells known allows the characters more in tune with this earthly magic force to glean more knowledge from it.

As for the learning/swapping on the fly, perhaps that could make a good capstone, an evolution of Instinctual Mimicry...I shall ponder this!

Thanks for the feed back! I think I'll write up an "abilities" section, so as to avoid further confusion. (Of course, it you're still confused.disagree with my description, please let me know!) :smallbiggrin:

Lert, A.
2008-09-21, 04:40 PM
I like the multiple score idea, don't get me wrong. The using Int for DCs seems a little off - not broken - still. If it were my class- it's not obviously - I would just use the Wis for DCs.

Oh yeah, I noticed that little bonus spells/ bonus spells known thing after I posted. Like how you can cast extra spells without learning more, or know more but have to use the spell with your regular spell slots. It improves on the Sorcerer's "you can't learn any more" problem.

Zeta Kai
2008-09-21, 05:36 PM
For a good look at what a Con/Wis-based caster looks like, I'll refer you to the Bio-Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2487790). It also explores the innate, fundamental magic within people, with Sorcerer-like casting.

Prometheus
2008-09-21, 08:26 PM
How is the Magus not just a more powerful Sorcerer?
Seeing as how spellcasters are hailed as the upper bound on power levels, I fail to see how this would help

thegurullamen
2008-09-21, 08:34 PM
How is the Magus not just a more powerful Sorcerer?
Seeing as how spellcasters are hailed as the upper bound on power levels, I fail to see how this would help

Kinda gotta agree with him. The MASSIVE MAD helps, but the non-delayed progression still puts this guy above a Sorc in terms of "Man, *** this Sorc ****." I'm not saying spontaneous caster progression shouldn't be that way to begin with but what should be and what is rarely coincide. (And if they do, you get Mechanus, which isn't all it's cracked up to be. Which itself isn't much to begin with; it's a subpar version of a subpar utopia. How depressing is that?)

Anyway, I like most of the revamps. The biggest problem you have right now is that this guy can literally cast everything. Spontaneously. You have to make his Mimicry a per day and/or per encounter thing. Otherwise every spell slot will become literally Any Spell Evars. Which blows for every other caster not to mention every non-caster.

Kaihaku
2008-09-21, 08:51 PM
Here's where I have some difficulty (broken down a bit):
As it is currently written you use three abilities for spellcasting, two of which - Con and Wis - provide bonus spells per day, the other - Int - used only for save DC.

Any character on a point-buy system would be badly damaged. I believe your intent was to use two main stat, and this I would agree with.

I think the MAD is necessary to balance out what is a very powerful class. Perhaps too powerful. INT gives you skill points, CHA gives you blah, WIS improves Will... CON gives you HP. A high CON is way more useful than a high CHA or WIS. I think it needs more balancing out, perhaps some sort of spell fatigue... Like if he spends 50% of his spell slots he gets physical penalties, 75% more serious, and if he uses all of his spell slots he's basically out for the day. Or power his spells with HP instead of spell slots. The Magus blows away the Sorcerer even with the MAD. 5 spells known per level? 4 + INT Skillpoints? d6 HD? Use Magical Device? Bonus Feats? Spells as supernatural and SLA? It's an interesting class but it's too potent in my opinion.

MammonAzrael
2008-09-21, 10:28 PM
Right, I'm headed home from work, and I'll post more in depth later tonight, but just wanted to fire off a quick response.

I agree that it's way too powerful atm. Originally the MAD was to help balance that, but I didn't toss in any other balancing issues when I made Instinctive Mimicry. So yeah, need to fix that. And I've been thinking and I'm really not happy with UMD, so I'm probably going to remove that. Other fixes and fiddles as well tonight.

My other major consideration is giving him a unique spell list (I mainly went with the Sorc/Wiz list because it was easiest. But with Mimicry, having a more limited list might be better).

Thanks for the opinions!!!

afroakuma
2008-09-21, 10:44 PM
I don't recall where I originally saw it, but I'd warn off any "0th level spells as spell-like abilities" unless you know where it's going.

Actually, I do. It was in the "break your DM thread," I believe. Some DM allowed infinite 0-levels. Players used Create Water to flood a dungeon. :smallwink:

thegurullamen
2008-09-21, 10:50 PM
I don't recall where I originally saw it, but I'd warn off any "0th level spells as spell-like abilities" unless you know where it's going.

Actually, I do. It was in the "break your DM thread," I believe. Some DM allowed infinite 0-levels. Players used Create Water to flood a dungeon. :smallwink:

I hated that story. Not only would it have taken a FRIGGING LONG TIME to do that the way the PC described, it would have been nigh impossible as cracks in the dungeons (and a portal maybe?) prevented the water from accumulating. Not to mention the monsters would start getting out once the unexplained water rose to waist-level or so. Multi-CR-inappropriate-stampede ftl.

Really, they'd have been better suited with a Decanter or two teleport rings, one of which was at the bottom of the ocean. (God bless XKCD.)

I think at will 0th levels are okay save for healing/inflicting. "Abusing" them takes forever and it just won't happen.

@ Mammon: Stick with Sor/Wiz spells. Specific spell lists tend to suck. A lot.

afroakuma
2008-09-21, 11:10 PM
I only gave the warning because higher level spells eventually go spell-like as well. Even 1st and 2nd level spells have some potential for abuse.

That said, you are totally right about the water story. The DM was... not quite as well-prepared as he should have been. Simplest response: "As you cast your spell, you notice water running down the cliffside below."

thegurullamen
2008-09-21, 11:38 PM
I don't think that 1st and 2nd SLAs will be at will, but maybe I should reread the class entry.

EDIT: I was right. Only 0th level spells are ever at-will abilities. If he wanted to though, Mammon could make 1st and 2nd at will at the uber high levels like 16th and 18th without destroying balance. But, like you pointed out, this opinion might be a little cavalier of me and should be examined for uber brokenness.

And as for Fiendish (or Angelic) Quickening, (sorry for not answering sooner) it's a 6th level Exalted/Vile spell that makes any Teleport or Teleport Without Error SLAs you have automatically quickened without any drawbacks for 1 rd./CL. Shy of becoming an angel/demon/devil with the Teleport SLA or becoming an Archmage, I couldn't figure out a way to make the spell work for a PC. Now I can.

More brainstorming:
--Craft Contingent Spell for free (Cont. Spells are tied to Con scores and show a mastery of anchoring spells to an innate magical soul)
--Shard of Vitality: create a Living Spell by sacrificing hp equal to the creature's divided by two. These can not be healed until the creature no longer exists.

MammonAzrael
2008-09-22, 10:52 AM
Correct, only 0-level spells are at will and by level 20 you'll know 9 of them(though ironically, you'll never know them as spells). And Create Water is not on the Sorc/Wiz list (unless it was added after the SRD). I don't want to make 1st or 2nd level spells At-will, that just seems too dangerous, and asking for trouble.

And yes, that will be relying on DMs not being completely idiotic and allowing such things. A little the same with Instinctive Mimicry, ruling what your character has seen or heard of spell-wise.

On that note, toning down Mimicry is probably a good idea. I'll make some tweaks and limitations.

Thegurullamen, I'm wary of Contingent Spell as a class feature, since that just seems to be begging for abuse. I'll have to look at it more in depth. The Living Spell option though, is very intriguing...hmmm...

Oh, and Zeta Kai, thanks for the link. I've gotten a chance only to look over the first couple posts (so, haven't gotten to the crunch yet) But I look forward to reading it all. It looks quite interesting! :smallsmile:

EDIT: Added a fairly major drawback to casting spells (unless there's an easy way around it I missed). And King Herodes, you just missed the update. :smalltongue:

King Herodes
2008-09-22, 11:22 AM
Mhh...

So you made a Base Class quite similar to a sorcerer, but
- with getting new spell-levels earlier
- with more spells known
- with unlimited use of known cantrips
- with better hit die
- with more skill points
- with much better and more class skills
- with 6 Sudden-Metamagic-Feat for free
- with the Ability to cast low level spells as spell-like abilities or even extraordinary abilities
- with the Ability to cast spells he doesn't knows

And want to Balance this out by 2 casting stats, that aren't a real drawback, because both give a character more benefits (hp and skill points) than Charisam :smallconfused:

Even if you think the sorcerer is underpowered and need a powerboost, this class as written is way overpowered (Unless all the classes you use are far stronger than those from the PHB).

You have to give the class some significant drawbacks in order to balance it...

Greetings
King Herodes

thegurullamen
2008-09-22, 12:40 PM
I think the King is wrong. Yes, the class might be overpowered compared to PHB classes, but so what? Everything else is too. Just balance it against a beguiler/artificer/wizard and you should be fine.

He does bring up some good points, though. Lose the All Knowledges and Spot, drop the SPs down to 2+Int, the HD's okay, make the subdual damage healable with magic as there's no reason not to, considering delaying spell progression ala the sorc (though I only half-heartedly endorse that) and I still suggest capping the 16th level version of mimicry at x/day.

Idea: Make a Spellcraft check in the morning to determine what x is. For every 5/6/8/10/whatever the result is, you gain one use of mimicry. No rerolls, no BS bonuses (like concentrating "really hard" on making the check to get a +2 circumstance bonus or anything).

King Herodes
2008-09-22, 12:56 PM
I think the King is wrong. Yes, the class might be overpowered compared to PHB classes, but so what? Everything else is too. Just balance it against a beguiler/artificer/wizard and you should be fine.

This argument makes every balance issues obsolete... :smallconfused: This class is stronger than the sorcerer in EVERY aspect a class can be stronger. And as I said, even if you think that the sorcerer is somehow too weak (I think so too, by the way) this goes much too far. And the class as written is certainly much stronger as the beguiler at least.

He does bring up some good points, though. Lose the All Knowledges and Spot, drop the SPs down to 2+Int, the HD's okay, make the subdual damage healable with magic as there's no reason not to, considering delaying spell progression ala the sorc (though I only half-heartedly endorse that) and I still suggest capping the 16th level version of mimicry at x/day.

Idea: Make a Spellcraft check in the morning to determine what x is. For every 5/6/8/10/whatever the result is, you gain one use of mimicry. No rerolls, no BS bonuses (like concentrating "really hard" on making the check to get a +2 circumstance bonus or anything).

MammonAzrael can make the class, as he wants to, but should be aware it is by far more powerful than any other spontaneous arcane caster I know (comparison to a wizard is difficult, and the real strength of a wizard depends largely on the game-style, so that's not easy to say). I just adviced him to this unarguable fact... :smallsmile:

Edit: Oh, I saw the spells/day were changed. This looks much better :smallsmile:

Greetings
King Herodes

MammonAzrael
2008-09-22, 01:01 PM
I actually almost removed Spot. Consider it gone. I've always hated 2+Int skills (personal pet peeve), but at this point I'm not sure what else a magus would really spend them on while having to make a choice. :smalltongue:

I always hated that Sorcerers got their spells a level later, so that I'm not plannng to change. I meant for the 16th level Mimicry to have the Wis/per day cap as well, I just forgot to toss it in there. The Spellcraft check to determine per day usage in interesting, I may modify it slightly.

Oh, as for the non-magical healing only, I tossed that on as a safegaurd. I didn't know if there was any easily exploitable loophole (and for some reason I was thinking that any magical healing cures all nonlethal damage...but that's bleeding out).

King Herodes
2008-09-22, 01:39 PM
I actually almost removed Spot. Consider it gone. I've always hated 2+Int skills (personal pet peeve), but at this point I'm not sure what else a magus would really spend them on while having to make a choice. :smalltongue:

I always hated that Sorcerers got their spells a level later, so that I'm not plannng to change. I meant for the 16th level Mimicry to have the Wis/per day cap as well, I just forgot to toss it in there. The Spellcraft check to determine per day usage in interesting, I may modify it slightly.

There's no problem with giving a spontaneous caster the spells at the same levels as a wizards (my own sorcerer-variant gets this, too), but combined with all the other benefits, it was too much. But after you decreased the spells/day by 2, I see no great problems with the rest of the class...

Oh, as for the non-magical healing only, I tossed that on as a safegaurd. I didn't know if there was any easily exploitable loophole (and for some reason I was thinking that any magical healing cures all nonlethal damage...but that's bleeding out).

Greetings
King Herodes

thegurullamen
2008-09-22, 01:56 PM
Greetings
King Herodes

Profit! I mean, success!

Still, it could use a capstone.

MammonAzrael
2008-09-22, 01:57 PM
Profit! I mean, success!

Still, it could use a capstone.

Indeed. I'm thinking about your Living spell idea, since it's also based off HP it makes a good connection. Not sure if it feels too random though. Ponderings are happening. :smalltongue:

thegurullamen
2008-09-22, 02:12 PM
How about something about reserve feats? Seems like a perfect fit. Then again, I think we should define a subniche for this guy to fulfill. Sorcs are magic machine guns, Wizards are the Batmans, Begs are Arcane Tricksters DELUXE!, Artificers are Mad Inventors, Dreads are Necros (duh), so what does this guy bring to the table in terms of mechanics?

EDIT: Of course! He's a blue mage, that's why the Sudden Metas are important; he needs to be able to modify what he has recently learned before he forgets it. I think we should go back to basic concept and build up from this base around the current fluff.

MammonAzrael
2008-09-22, 02:23 PM
Right now is see them sort of as "I can cast anything you need. Now." They can whip out almost anything on the fly, and can meet nearly any challenge in a pinch, but not as neatly as someone prepared for it (They can even cast Dispel Magic in an Antimagic field!).

EDIT: A blue Mage....hmmm...I think that analogy is closer to a blue mage crossed with a red mage at this point.

Double Edit: OK, I think I got it. I see this class mechanically atm as what Red Mage from 8-bit theater would be if he were competent.

thegurullamen
2008-09-22, 02:31 PM
Right now is see them sort of as "I can cast anything you need. Now." They can whip out almost anything on the fly, and can meet nearly any challenge in a pinch, but not as neatly as someone prepared for it (They can even cast Dispel Magic in an Antimagic field!).

EDIT: A blue Mage....hmmm...I think that analogy is closer to a blue mage crossed with a red mage at this point.

I would be careful with the red mage analogy. The point of a red mage is the same as a mystic theurge; do everything but in as sucky a manner as possible. Still, he is not a straight blue mage; he loses the ability to cast what he "learns" before it can be made permanent, he can only learn spells unlike the spell thief and he has nothing blue about him. In fact, your pic for the class does look a little more red than blue now that you mention it...

Prometheus
2008-09-22, 03:11 PM
I had a PC that had a ring of sustenance on one hand and ring of water elemental control (infinite create water, high caster level) on the other. He would spend all night on watch, and the PCs would wake up to a lake when they woke up. Later when he became a Drunken Boxer he would make it rain alcohol for the hell of it.

But the cantrips isn't what I am worried about unbalancing the class.

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-22, 09:02 PM
The capstone could be something like, the Magus becomes an immortal native outsider with SR 10+class level. Being able to cast 3rd level spells as (Ex) is pretty good by itself though. Maybe 1/day a 20th level Magus can cast any spell he knows as (Ex)?

thegurullamen
2008-09-22, 09:15 PM
The capstone could be something like, the Magus becomes an immortal native outsider with SR 10+class level. Being able to cast 3rd level spells as (Ex) is pretty good by itself though. Maybe 1/day a 20th level Magus can cast any spell he knows as (Ex)?

Sounds good if just a little un-flashy.

How about if he can cast an Epic spell 1/day?!!!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?

Please do not follow this suggestion.

MammonAzrael
2008-09-24, 12:11 PM
1 Epic spell per day is....probably too many per day. :smalltongue:

Maybe the ability to transform your familiar into a Living Spell familiar or something.

The any spell as an (Ex) ability is interesting...

Hmm....perhaps once per day an Epic spell as an (Ex) ability, but you take nonlethal/lethal damage equal to or double the Spellcraft DC? Of course, I'm no Tippy, so I'm not an expert (or even well versed) in Epic spells.

I thought about doing some type of transformation for a capstone(Outsider is the most likely candidate), but that always felt a little weak to me. I've never really seen anyone aim for that as a reason to take 20 levels in a class. Maybe some type of Lich-like ascension (with the evil and undead aspects)? Like gaining several benefits for becoming an outsider, including more resiliance to death, DR, SR, immunities, perhaps healing of some kind, an At-will attack(1st lv spells?), an aura, ect...?

It seems like the Monk-like capstone just doesn't offer enough incentive ('course, that could just be because it's the monk).

Adumbration
2008-09-24, 12:14 PM
Nonononono. *smacks with a newspaper*

No epic spells, please. It is far too easy to lower the DC, no matter what damage you take or restraints you set.

thegurullamen
2008-09-24, 01:21 PM
Nonononono. *smacks with a newspaper*

No epic spells, please. It is far too easy to lower the DC, no matter what damage you take or restraints you set.

Neither of you actually read the post. Hint: Highlight the entire thing.

Mage Ascendant: (Ex) You are magic. You are immune to any spell of 3rd level or lower (though you may still be effected by them if you wish), gain SR of 25 + HD and are under the effects of Spell Turningfor all spells of 6th level or lower. You no longer need to eat or sleep and must only meditate three hours per day to renew spells. You are now considered as a humanoid, ooze and outsider for all beneficial effects and solely as a humanoid for all other effects.

As long as you have spell slots of at least 6th level uncast, you have Regeneration 1.

Adumbration
2008-09-24, 01:22 PM
Neither of you actually read the post. Hint: Highlight the entire thing.

I did. I don't think Azrael did. To which I mostly responded to.

thegurullamen
2008-09-24, 01:57 PM
I did. I don't think Azrael did. To which I mostly responded to.

Then you are guiltless. Continue walking the path of righteousness, my brother.

MammonAzrael
2008-09-25, 10:15 AM
No, I didn't read the mysterious hidden message. :smalltongue: The only way I could've seen Epic spells working would be to allow NO mitigation of the DC.

As for Mage Ascendant...I really like it. The flavor is terrific, and fits with the classes evolution most excellently. I'm going to add that right now (perhaps making a tweak or two). Thanks for the suggestion!!

Stycotl
2008-09-25, 10:57 AM
cool class. any problems that i had with it were fixed while i was reading it, so, ummm, not much left to say. good job.

Zantumall
2009-02-12, 08:52 PM
I like it. Especially the capstone. However, I think the nonlethal damage every time you cast is a little dangerous for lower level Magi, even with the high Con and decent HD. The class itself is great, although I'd find a way to balance other than nonlethal damage otherwise you'll see quite a few unconscious 1st-level Magi out there.

MammonAzrael
2009-02-12, 10:24 PM
I'm glad you like the class. :smallbiggrin:

As for your unconscious concern, I don't think it's that big a deal. A first level Magus will usually have 9 or 10 HP (Depending on a 16 or 18 Con). Which means 2 or 3 level 1 spells a day. Which translates into 4 or 6 nonlethal damage. And that leaves him with 4 or 5 HP wiggle room. Which is about the same amount a normal 1st level wizard would be looking at. So, just try not to get hit! (and even if you do, you're more likely to live than a Wizard).

Of course, that's complete theory since I haven't been able to test this class out at all. :smallsigh:

MageSparrowhawk
2009-02-13, 12:49 AM
wow..well...this class looks pretty cool. I'd have to say I like it. However, that very well may be because I tried to do something like this already...but with a slightly different feel (see sig.) The capstone ability is very nice, as is how you meshed the other abilities together. very nice.

*thumbs up* (also win @ unlimited prestidigitation)

Dante & Vergil
2009-11-10, 03:43 PM
Yes, the slight MAD was intended. It's never made any sense to me why almost all spellcasters get to be SAD. Melee characters typically need to focus on several stats to be effective, why should casters be any different?

Because fighters do not need specific high numbers to be effective. Stats only provide a numeric bonus to help them out, and do not need Lets say I took this progression into Epic, and lets say Epic Spellcasting doesn't exist and spellcasters kept getting higher level spell slots to make things a little better (10th at lvl 21, and a new spell level every two after that.) In a normal nondeprived stat inviroment (rolling stats can fall under this category), I only get a stat boost every four levels, which isn't fast enough to keep up with the growing spell levels, and do not mention that epic gets + 1 to a stat feats because I should not have to take feats just to use my abilities. That is in a normal enviroment. Just imagine when you start off with smaller stats (like with point buy usually) you lose out even more, and will probably need to use magic items to keep up, which is always bad.


The only Stat you really need is Con, at 19. A high DC from Int and the extra known spells from Wis are extras, not necessary for a functional caster.

I personally like to keep my DCs high, which this class does not help with. I would rather play a sorcerer, or any of the "specialist" varients, over this class so that I don't have suffer over having MAD. You only punish non-optimisers by making it MAD.
You are right though about Wis for bonus spells known, and I think that it's a very nice touch.


The way I see it is: Con is the primary casting stat. A magus must be strong of body to learn these secrets, and cast them.

And this here's a flavor problem, how do you know how to cast spells from Constitution? It's a physical stat, not a mental one. I know you wanted to have the Mulitstat casting but at the very least make it at least that this is based off of Inteligence.

MammonAzrael
2010-08-31, 04:13 PM
Because fighters do not need specific high numbers to be effective. Stats only provide a numeric bonus to help them out, and do not need Lets say I took this progression into Epic, and lets say Epic Spellcasting doesn't exist and spellcasters kept getting higher level spell slots to make things a little better (10th at lvl 21, and a new spell level every two after that.) In a normal nondeprived stat inviroment (rolling stats can fall under this category), I only get a stat boost every four levels, which isn't fast enough to keep up with the growing spell levels, and do not mention that epic gets + 1 to a stat feats because I should not have to take feats just to use my abilities. That is in a normal enviroment. Just imagine when you start off with smaller stats (like with point buy usually) you lose out even more, and will probably need to use magic items to keep up, which is always bad.

Except Epic Spellcasting does exist, which renders this argument moot. No spell caster needs their primary casting stat higher than 20 to cast spells. Its a known ceiling, so you can design around it. As your primary casting stat it should always be getting stat-boost love. But like melee classes, you actually have to choose and prioritize. You can start with a 15 in Con and still be just fine, never needing an extra boost to cast your spells. If you can't manage a 15 in your primary stat, you are playing by a very difficult/anemic point buy. And this is true for every caster.


I personally like to keep my DCs high, which this class does not help with. I would rather play a sorcerer, or any of the "specialist" varients, over this class so that I don't have suffer over having MAD. You only punish non-optimisers by making it MAD.

And I'm sure a Fighter would like to keep his strength high, so he can land hits more often, and his Con high so he doesn't die, and his Dex and Wis high to keep up saves and avoid failing high DCs from SAD casters, and Int in case he wants any competence outside of combat. So now this caster has to choose what he wants, just like the poor martial character. Except he can still tell reality to sit down and shut up.

I'm not punishing non-optimizers, I'm making a caster that is a little more sane when compared to his martial brethren. It doesn't matter what classes you enjoy playing, you can't deny that DnD magic is so absurdly powerful compared to what a martial character can do that it isn't funny. Tell me, if there was a SAD martial character, wouldn't it shine over other martial characters by simple virtue of being SAD? Any class that is SAD is poor game design. And depending on three of the six available stats doesn't make a class all that MAD, it just makes it normal. Like what we've seen in 4th edition, relying on half the stats available is in no way a bad or impossible thing.


You are right though about Wis for bonus spells known, and I think that it's a very nice touch.

Thank you. :smallsmile:


And this here's a flavor problem, how do you know how to cast spells from Constitution? It's a physical stat, not a mental one. I know you wanted to have the Mulitstat casting but at the very least make it at least that this is based off of Inteligence.

I understand the difficulty flavor-wise of knowing a spell from a physical stat. But you don't need to be smart to know the spells. How smart you are only dictates how well you cast the spells you know. Think about casting from Con like muscle memory. Its a physical knowledge, a reaction or ability that your body has learned and mastered to the degree that you don't think about it, your body just innately knows to do it. Knowing how to cast spells is like that for a Magus. They can feel it in their bones, their body knows how to cast the spell just as it knows how to breath or balance on two feet. It's something that can be improved upon, but its innate knowledge, inborn into the Magus, waiting to be tapped.

I hope that helps a little.

Dante & Vergil
2010-09-01, 12:07 AM
Fair enough on your arguments. Sure I don't like MAD, but you make a point on balance. Now thinking about it, you may not have entirely made the class as MAD as you think. With making one of the primary stats constitution, the one stat to never dump, making the only people that suffer are undead and constructs, who are of the non-living kind, but they are far and few between.

MammonAzrael
2010-09-01, 01:16 AM
Indeed. I did that partly on purpose, because while I did want more MAD, I know that DCs are very important to spellcasters, more integral than any given stat for a melee-er. So having the main stat be something you'd want high anyways gives a bit more leeway to pump the stat that boosts your DCs.

I see it sort of like a fighter's option to choose to focus on Strength or Dexterity: they are two separate builds, and both are viable. Here a Magus can choose to focus on Intelligence and choose spells with saving throws, or he could easily build another route, ignoring his DCs and choose spells that don't allow saving throws int he first place. Yay for options!

Thanks for the comments, and the impressive time span between them! :smallsmile:

Also, rereading what I typed, I'm sorry if I came off as rude or aggressive or anything like that. Totally not my intention.

Ralasha
2010-09-01, 06:15 AM
I do believe the SR should be reduced however, or the transformation should be more gradual. As it is, at level 20 you become immune to any non-illumian caster. Who even power-gamed to the maximum would still have to roll a 9 to hit you with a spell.

MammonAzrael
2010-09-01, 08:11 PM
I can see that. Having a SR of 45 at level 20 is pretty darn impressive...a Solar at CR 23 only has SR 32. As it stands now a lv 20 spellcaster with no extra tricks or CL boosts can't hit on a 20. I could reduce it to 40, requiring some type of boost (which frankly at level 20, they damn well should have) to hit. And of course there is always Assay Spell Resistance for an extra +10.

The other sensible option is to reduce it to 35, giving a completely unboosted caster a 25% chance of having the spell go through. Opinions? I think I'm going to knock it down to 40 for now, 45 does seem too high, even for a being of pure magic.

As for having it improve gradually...yeah, I can see how that could work, I just don't know how I'd fit it in. I mean, the whole idea is that the Magus goes under a drastic transformation at level 20, and that's where these nifty new abilities come from.

Also, I added Epic progression for giggles.

Dante & Vergil
2010-09-01, 10:18 PM
Wow, the epic progresion rocks! Good work!
Spell resistance could stand being a little as it's already been mentioned, but not so much when taking ten becomes automatic success. (There's a feat that let's you take ten on caster checks.)

MammonAzrael
2010-09-01, 10:48 PM
Wow, the epic progresion rocks! Good work!
Spell resistance could stand being a little as it's already been mentioned, but not so much when taking ten becomes automatic success. (There's a feat that let's you take ten on caster checks.)

:smallbiggrin: Thanks! I'm especially proud of the capstone.

And yeah, I reduced the SR to 20 + class level. So an equally leveled opponent with that "take 10" feat could do so, but only with an Assay Spell Resistance or another +10 CLs. I figure that is decently strong without being too stupid.

Ralasha
2010-09-01, 11:40 PM
I believe SR 15+Class Level would be better. Oh, I had forgotten that trick, nevermind and illumian would have hit your old SR on a 2.

MammonAzrael
2011-03-15, 04:31 AM
So I was looking through some of my homebrew and wanted to bring the formatting up to date. So I've brought it in line with my current formatting style and updated a couple of lingering issues.

I forgot how much I liked this class. I need to find a game for it. :smallbiggrin:

Veklim
2011-03-15, 08:51 AM
IMHO, as the class currently stands, it looks ok. There are the minor concerns brought up repeatedly over the discussion about the relative power levels with regard to socerer (which I have always found frustrating waiting another level for spells also btw!) but I don't think there's much to worry about. The bonus metas aren't honestly going too far either, a wizard of equal level is comparable on that progression. The skills seem reasonable, as does the HD type, and the mimicry ability is super-sweet (wish I'd come up with it myself for something), but there's something about the class which still doesn't sit right with me. Wish to gods I could put my finger on it though!
Perhaps it's to do with the horrifying thought of multi-classing it with druid for example, it would make for truly terrifying gameplay, or any other class for that matter. It would become nastier still with the addition of any number of prestige classes, can you imagine a true necromancer using Magus instead of Wizard...?
Trouble is, for all I've said, I still don't think it's too over-powered. A good DM can ensure a stable game and restore a great deal of balance to the class. My only constructive thought (I knew I'd get there eventually!) would be to impose some sort of equipment restriction, not unlike Druid, onto the spellcasting aspect. A focus, a la cleric would also make immediate sense to me. These are the things which, although not highly restrictive to the core mechanic of gameplay, do give the DM options as to how to control power-play.
Sorry about the ramble.

MammonAzrael
2011-03-15, 02:32 PM
I agree about the sorcerer, but I don't feel constrained by it. I still believe that the Sorcerer is a terribly designed class, and should not be used as a base, expect to gauge how powerful a limited spell selection caster generally is.

I'm glad you like the mimicry. :smallsmile: That went through a number of revisions until it was something that wasn't just reliant on DM fiat. It'll still take some book-keeping that may turn some people off, but the result and flavor, I think , is worth it.

You mean like a Magus/Druid Mystic Theurge? I agree they would have some impressive synergy, but at the end of they day you're still combining a tier 1 caster and a tier 2 caster...of course you're going to be scary.

As for your suggestion...you know they still need focuses and material components if the spell call for it, right? And I can't think of any focus that would be flavorful to apply to every spell they cast, on top of the fact that realistically, DMs rarely, if ever, mess with focuses in such a way for it to be considered a way to control the caster.

Don't worry about rambling, sometimes that is the best way to get your thoughts out! :smallsmile: Thanks for the input!

Hawkfrost000
2011-03-15, 04:34 PM
Darn, i thought it said Magos not Magus

still a pretty cool idea, it makes more sense then a Cha based CC class

DM

MammonAzrael
2011-03-15, 07:36 PM
CC class?

Complete casting?

Veklim
2011-03-21, 06:58 AM
I'd like to slightly alter my original feeling on sorcerer, so I figured I'd do it here since the discussion has been hot on this topic.
In my opinion, sorcerer is built for cross-classing into a caster, hence the ease of use & adaptability. It is only underpowered on the table because of the sheer number of options you have with it. Having looked over a great many of my books, it's come to my attention how many rather funky feats have sorcerer lvl1 as a req. This does not in ANY way diminish the stupidity of stalling spell-level progression, nor the slightly limited list of spells known from which you must draw (an extra 1/lvl helps, personal house rule), but it does go some way towards addressing the power flop between itself and wizard, perhaps a bonus feat here or there would do it some good?
Regardless, if anyone knows of a balanced sorcerer re-tooling, plz let me know!
BTW, my group love Magus, I already have one player planning on making one, and as such I'm being forced to create an entire community to house the difference in spellcasting, any suggestions oh mighty creator-dude?

MammonAzrael
2011-03-21, 08:00 PM
Well, first off, I'm thrilled your group loves the magus, and I hope you all have fun plying with it. If you or your group wanted to post any of your experiences on playing the class, I'd love to read the practical feedback!

As far as I am aware, lowering when a sorcerer gains their new spell levels to be in line with the wizard is all they need. The various feats that require a "Sorcerer 1st level" are, to a one, intended to represent where the sorcerer is drawing his power from, representative of his magical ancestry.

That said, the sorcerer will always play tier 2 to the wizard's tier one, by the simple nature of his much more limited known spells. This is not a problem, just a difference. I have seen several "fixes" over the years that give the sorcerer class features, though I don't have any links for you atm.

And finally, as for an organization for magi...

I'm not sure what exactly you're requesting. Do you want a full community that is exclusively for magi? A community that incorporates all the various casters, and how a magus would interact in such a community and where their place would be?

In a general sense, a magus is likely going to be the most down-to-earth of all the various arcane casters. They are the toughest, and the least likely to shy away from hard work or or activities that are physically demanding. On average, they will likely be a bit wiser than the rest of their arcane kin (though still outstripped by the divine). While they will often strike a balance between the physical efforts they are capable of and the research and understanding that drives the intelligence of wizards. Sort of like a cross between jocks and nerds, they will never be as intelligent as a dedicated wizard, but most will be, at least, smarter than the average bear.

For this balance and wisdom, they are not the most flamboyant or attention-grabbing of people. They will never dominate a conversation, or a community. Their advice will be sought after, like a wise elder, but they will almost never be the leader. Their distinct lack of charisma sees to that very clearly. They will often be quite, rarely boisterous, and generally are very accepting. While there are extreme magi that take things to extreme cases, most will tend towards neutral alignments, reflecting the balance they find with the world around them.

I hope that helps! I'm thinking I'm going to update their fluff, so it includes more information, in the standard of the GitP Base Class Challenge. :smallsmile:

MammonAzrael
2011-03-22, 01:10 AM
So I updated the class with a huge infusion of fluff, so hopefully that will help and you like it! :smallbiggrin:

Veklim
2011-03-22, 06:48 AM
Many thanks dude,
The fluff is useful indeed, had a chat with my co-DM for the campaign in question (big group, splits quite neatly into 4 combat characters & 4 mental/spellcaster characters so we often run parallel story threads) and we have got a much better clue as to how to integrate them into our setting.
Ogre mages are now Orge Magus, many of the barbarian tribes have had their shamans replaced by magus too, Orcs make better magus than most other spllcasting classes, it must be said! As such, my first layer of feedback will happen in the coming weeks as I use them as NPCs, the player who is interested may take a while longer to give appropriate feedback.
My next question is rather cheeky, but I wondered if you had paid any thought to making a magus-oriented feat or two as a supplement to the class, sweeten the deal a little and see if I can get players into productive play-testing...? If not, mind if I have a stab or two myself?

Veklim
2011-03-22, 08:41 AM
For example....

Spellpower Familiar [General]
Requirements: Magus level 5+, Wis 13+, Spellcraft 8 ranks
Thanks to the mystic bond between the Magus and his familiar, the Magus has learned to use the vitality of his familiar as a 'battery' for his spells.
Whenever the Magus casts a spell which allows a save, he may elect his familiar to take subdual damage equal to the spell's level (this is in addition to the subdual damage the Magus himself takes when casting a spell, the familiar must be left conscious after doing so for the Magus to gain any benefit from this feat). Doing so increases the save DC of the spell by 2. The familiar must be within 5ft of the Magus at the time of casting.
This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the Magus' Wis modifier.

That's my first time actually posting something constructive...wierd...:smalltongue:

MammonAzrael
2011-03-22, 02:05 PM
I'm glad the fluff helped.

Yeah, these guys will make much better mages for the...mentally challenged. Just remember that their save are going to be lower, and that non-lethal damage will add up with any punishment they take meaning they have less effective hit points than it would appear on paper.

I could write up some feat for the magus, yours is a good start. Welcome to homebrewing! :smallsmile: