PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] New Poison and Alchemy Rules



Rei_Jin
2008-09-21, 11:13 PM
Alchemy and Poison for the modern adventurer

Looking at the existing rules for alchemy and poisons, there seems to be no pattern, no method of price adjudication or item creation, as well as very little versatility. What I seek to do with this system is to streamline it all, as well as rewarding players for developing their skills and interests outside of combat.




Item Creation DCs

Elemental Flask:
Base DC 10 (Craft: Alchemy)
Add +5 per 1d6 of damage for Fire, Ice, Lightning, or Acid (starts at 0d6 damage)
Add +10 per 1d6 of damage for Sonic (starts at 0d6 damage)
Add +2 per round of duration
Add +10 per increase in radius (starts at one 5ft square)
Add +2 per +1 to the required Reflex Save against the area effect damage (starts at DC10)
NB. The duration is important with the elemental flasks, as that defines how long the effect will stay in the targeted square/squares. If you don't put duration on it, the duration will be instantaneous. You pay for each round of duration if it is anything other than an instantaneous effect.

Effect Flask:
Base DC 10 (Craft: Alchemy)
Add +5 for any one of the following effects: Entangling, Deafening, Blinding
Add +10 for either of the following effects: Sleeping, Paralysing
Add +2 per round of duration
Add +10 per increase in radius (starts at one 5ft square)
Add +2 per +1 to the required save (starts at DC10)
NB. The duration is important with the effect flasks, as that defines how long the effect lasts. If you don't put duration on it, it won't work. You pay for each round of duration.

Poison Flask:
Base DC 10 (Craft: Poison)
Add +5 per 1d6 of initial ability damage one of the following stats: STR, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA
Add +10 per 1d6 of initial ability damage to CON
Add +5 per 1d6 of secondary ability damage one of the following stats: STR, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA
Add +10 per 1d6 of secondary ability damage to CON
If the secondary damage is to a different stat than the initial, reduce the DC by 5
Add +2 if the Poison is activated by ingestion
Add +5 if the Poison is activated by injury
Add +10 if the Poison is activated by inhalation or contact
Add +2 per +1 to the required save (Starts at DC10)

Note: All flasks may only have one effect or element for the initial creation.

Combining effects:
If you wish to have more than one type of effect on a Flask, then design the different elements as individual flasks, then add the DCs together. If you are mixing elemental damage with poison damage for example, you would need to be able to hit the higher DC with BOTH Craft: Alchemy and Craft: Poison. Also, note that if you are combining a poison with an alternate effect, the alternate effect is administered in the same method as the poison. Poisons do not become area effects.




Usage

Elemental Flasks:
To use an Elemental Flask you throw it as a Standard Action, or as part of a Full Round Attack Action, that provokes Attacks of Opportunity, either against an individual or against a square. The range increment is 10ft with a maximum range of 5 range increments. You must make a successful ranged touch attack against your chosen target (DC10 if aiming for a square). If you miss your target, roll scatter dice (1d8 for direction, 1d6 for number of squares. The Elemental Flask then activates, dealing its damage to the initial target (no save) and splash damage to those within the area of effect (Reflex Save for half damage)

Effect Flasks:
To use an Effect Flask you throw it as a Standard Action, or as part of a Full Round Attack Action, that provokes Attacks of Opportunity, either against an individual or against a square. The range increment is 10ft with a maximum range of 5 range increments. You must make a successful ranged touch attack against your chosen target (DC10 if aiming for a square). If you miss your target, roll scatter dice (1d8 for direction, 1d6 for number of squares. The Effect Flask then activates, dealing its effect to the initial target (No Save for Entangling, Fortitude Save for Deafening, Blinding, and Paralysing, Will Save for Sleeping) and splash damage to those within the area of effect (Reflex Save for Entangling, Fortitude Save for Deafening, Blinding, and Paralysing, Will Save for Sleeping)

Poison Flask:
To use a Poison Flask depends on the method of delivery. Ingested Poisons must be swallowed by the target; they take effect 5 minutes after ingestion. Injury poisons are only effectively administered when the target takes damage from a piercing or bladed weapon (1hp minimum) and take effect immediately. Contact poisons need only touch the target, thus a successful touch attack with the poison will succeed, and it will take effect immediately. Inhaled poisons are breathed in and take effect immediately. Inhaled poisons are generally delivered via a cloth or other direct delivery method.




Method of Creation and Market Value

The cost of creation is half the items market value, plus the relevant time it takes to make the check. The required DC to successfully make the item is listed by the previous formula, you MUST meet that DC to make progress. You then multiply your Craft result by the required DC, and the total is the amount of silver pieces worth of progress made per week. You can voluntarily increase the required DC to speed up the creation process, but you must declare that you are doing this to the DM before you make your check. You can also choose to do your checks daily, but the result is calculated in copper pieces, not silver pieces.

The Market Value is built into the DCs. Meaning that the higher the DC, the higher the cost.

There is a formula for the market value of the different items.

Elemental Flask:
The cost is DC/2 (Round up), then squared, divided by 2 and then converted into gp.
As an example, if you take a Fire Flask (2d6 Fire damage, DC20 to make), the cost will be 20/2 = 10, 10x10 = 100, 100/2 = 50, 50gp. If you were instead to make a Fire Burst Flask (2d6 damage in a 15ft diameter, originating from the target, DC 10 save against area damage, DC30 to make), the market value will be 30/2 = 15, 15x15 = 225, 225/2 = 112.5, 112gp 5sp. Of course, this also means that you can make monstrous effects. If I wanted to mimic a fireball for example... Fireball Flask (6d6 Fire Damage in a 45ft Diameter, DC 15 against area damage, DC90 to make), the market value would be 90/2 = 45, 45x45 = 2025, 2025/2 = 1012.5, 1012gp 5sp.

Effect Flask:
The cost is DC/2 (Round up), then squared, and then converted into gp.
As an example, if you take an Entangling Flask (Entangling effect on one target, one round duration, DC 17 to make), the market value would be 17/2 = 9, 9x9 = 81, 81gp. If you were to create a Sleep Area Flask (Sleep effect in a 15ft Diameter, DC 15 Will Save, effect lasts for 5 rounds, DC 50 to make), the market value would be 50/2 = 25, 25x25 = 625, 625gp.

Poison Flask:
The cost is DC/2 (Round up) then squared, multiplied by 2 and then converted into gp . As an example, if you take a Dexterity Poison Flask (1d6 Dex/1d6 Dex, Injury poison, DC 15 Negates, DC 35 to make), the market value would be 35/2 = 18, 18x18 = 324, 324x2 = 648, 648gp per dose.

Combined Items:
When combining items, the cost is based on the highest tier of creation. For example, if I was making a flask that did both elemental and effect, I would base the pricing off the effect. If I was basing it off elemental and poison, it would be based off the poison. Thus, once you have added the two DCs together to create your item, you then use the correct formula.




Unusual Items

It IS possible to make unusual alchemical items and poisons using this system. For example, if I wanted to make a poison that did paralysis for 10 rounds as the initial damage, and 1d6 Dex damage as the secondary, I would use the following formula for creation.
10 (Base for Poison Flask)
+0 (No initial damage)
+5 (1d6 Dex Damage as secondary)
+10 (Inhalation poison)
+10 (DC 15 Fortitude Save)

10 (Base for Effect Flask)
+10 (Paralysis effect)
+20 (10 round duration)
+10 (DC 15 Fortitude Save)

DC 35 + DC 60 = DC 95

The market value would be 95/2 = 48, 48x48 = 2304, 2304x2 = 4608, 4608gp.

You now have a very unusual poison, but one that will allow you to taunt your victim whilst they lie there unable to move, is administered merely by breathing it in, and even if they do survive the 10 rounds of paralysis will leave them partially crippled and unable to move freely.


This was a topic that came up in the other D20 thread, so I thought I should split it over here for evaluation. Any modifications necessary, or anything that people would like to see put in?

Epinephrine
2008-09-22, 03:04 PM
What's the cost for these? I'm curious about your formula, as costs were one thing that made poisons completely pointless - you have to spend so much to use poisons that it just isn't worthwhile.

Elemental Flasks:
Well, the balance seems pretty good for the Elemental flask, at low DCs, it's a decent DC 17 to make a flask that deals 1d6 damage and another 1d6 damage the next round. That's about what one can manage to create with starting ranks and an Int bonus.

At higher levels the damage scales well, a DC 40 check gets you a 6d6 damage flask, which isn't exactly a ton of damage at late levels. Of course there's the problem of people using the broken stuff to crank their craft creck to make a nasty brew earlier - I'd probably key in some limit based on actual ranks of Craft-Alchemy, just to prevent that type of abuse.

I'm not sure about the extra rounds of damage - with higher DCs one an sacrifice a single die of damage pretty much to get 2.5 rounds of extra damage time. I'd say perhaps +2DC per die of damage? You're still getting bonus damage at a discount (important, as immediate damage is much more valuable) but you're not able to multiply the damage up as much. At +2 Dc per round, a DC 40 check could be a single 6d6 hit or a 4d6 flask that burns for 6 rounds... even with the benefit of immediacy, dealing 4 times the damage on the same check is a bit much. If it were +2DC per die of damage for an extra round it would cost +8DC to add a round of damage - so for DC38 one could manage 4d6 damage for 2 rounds, instead of a DC40 to deal 6d6 on a single round - seems more reasonable to me.

Not certain about the radius, but seems like its in the right ballpark.

Bonus to DC for the splash seems a bit pointless - splash damage is a point per die, right? A DC10 check is basically pointless at anything above 1st level, and to boost the difficult of the save by 5 you'd be giving up 2d6 extra damage (2 points of splash damage). At that ratio, just ad the damage to the main effect and let him make the save.
Compare a 6d6 damage flask with a DC10 reflex save, or a 3d6 damage flask with a DC17 Reflex save (heck, make it a DC18 save, give them the extra point) - they take the same DC to craft; if you make the save and take half damage from the 6d6 damage potion you end up taking 3 damage - which is what the DC18 save flask deals if you fail your save! It's just not a good trade-off.

Effect flasks:
DC is a bit weak - you are scaling at the same rate as someone with a good save, actually - +1 DC per 2 levels, which sounds good at first. Since you could have level+3 ranks, and an attribute bonus (as well as a potential skill focus!) you could easily spare make a sleep flask and devote the extra crafting DCs to making it hard to resist: at 9th level you could easily have a +5 ability modifier, +3 from skill focus and 12 ranks of Craft alchemy, making for a +20 Craft check; taking 10 allows for a DC 15 Sleep item. This has a 60% chance of affecting someone with a poor save progression and no attribute bonus, with no items. Realistically though, foes will likely have some ability bonuses/magical bonuses, and might even have a good save progression. Against someone with a good save progression, and a modest ability score of 14 you'd only have a 30% chance of affecting them.

And it has no duration yet, either. Add a single round of duration and it's only a 20% chance against the good save with moderate ability, and a 50% chance versus the weak save with no ability.

It's not bad though, it's in the right ballpark - perhaps if it started at 1d3 rounds, and you scaled the die up when you added to the duration? (use advancing a weapon?) - I think with a small number of rounds to start with it's in the right ballpark - again though I'd limit the effective DCs that anyone can make by using their number of ranks - otherwise you have binder/factotum/marshall alchemists using or Divine Insight users cranking out stupidly broken stuff.

I'm not sure about splash effects on effect flasks - how would that work? I'd probably just homebrew a new set of rules for splash effects, with the DC being the same as the save DC - for blindness the splash effect might be dazzled (or equivalent), for sleeping or paralysed the splash effect could be fatigued, shaken, or somethinng similar?

For poisons:
I think that you have the attributes arranged in an odd manner - why are Con damage poisons more costly, exactly? Reducing many stats to 0 essentially takes an enemy out of the fight - 0 strength, dexterity, constitution, wisdom or intelligence will do the trick, right? And many tough critters are low on mental stats, making them pretty tempting targets.

Secondary damage should be much less important than primary - you don't want abusive creation of 1d2 Con/4d6 Con potions that are cheap because it's only secondary, but
a) they need to fail twice to suffer secondary damage
and
b) it's 10 rounds later, which makes it essentially pointless in combat.

I don't know that one should add anything to the DC for an ingested poison - in fact, I think ingested posions might as well be done with a whole separate system, since the fact is they're not a combat tool. Pricing and effectiveness of combat tools is different from things for offing each other through intrigue. I'd concentrate on the Injury, Contact, and Inhaled, and worry about the other as a separate issue.

I disagree with reducing the DC by 5 if the secondary damage is different than the primary - sounds like a great way to min-max poison making - you can counter a die of frontloaded primary dammage by making the much less important secondary damage less effective (against which a second save can be made, and which takes effect after combat half the time).

I think secondary effects should be cheap, though secondary effects when the primary was Con based should be a bit pricier than secondary effects when the primary isn't Con based (since secondary only kicks in if they suffer primary damage, and thus the secondary following Con damage is more likely to work).

I'm not sure about how to scale the poison DCs - clearly, the save DC is all important - players can hit multiple times, and each dose can have an effect. Also, it's much harder to balance things that damage abilities, since abilities don't scale very well with level - you can drop a Titan (Dex 12) about as easily as you can drop an Orc (Dex 11) with a Dex based poison - you just need to get the save DC high enough. It only takes a few d6 of Dex damage to take either of them out. That's why poisons are much harder to balance than something like an elemental flask.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-22, 06:24 PM
Okay, I used the wrong term to start with. When I say "Splash Damage", what I really meant was Area Effect Damage. Like a fireball. And the extended duration is against the squares it occupies, not the individuals who move through them. Thus, you could use an elemental flask for battlefield control by throwing down longer lasting area effects to funnel your enemies, or even block them off from you.

The duration is important with the effect flasks, as that defines how long the effect lasts. If you don't put a duration on it, it won't work. You pay for each round of duration.

The costs will be built into the DCs. Meaning that the higher the DC, the higher the cost.

There is a formula for the market cost of the different items.

Elemental Flask:
The cost is DC/2 (Round up), then squared, divided by 2 and then converted into gp.
As an example, if you take a Fire Flask (2d6 Fire damage, DC20 to make), the cost will be 20/2 = 10, 10x10 = 100, 100/2 = 50, 50gp. If you were instead to make a Fire Burst Flask (2d6 damage in a 15ft diameter, originating from the target, DC 10 save against area damage, DC30 to make), the cost will be 30/2 = 15, 15x15 = 225, 225/2 = 112.5, 112gp 5sp. Of course, this also means that you can make monstrous effects. If I wanted to mimic a fireball for example...

Fireball Flask (6d6 Fire Damage in a 45ft Diameter, DC 15 against area damage, DC90 to make), the cost would be 90/2 = 45, 45x45 = 2025, 2025/2 = 1012.5, 1012gp 5sp.

Effect Flask:
The cost is DC/2 (Round up), then squared, and then converted into gp.
As an example, if you take an Entangling Flask (Entangling effect on one target, one round duration, DC 17 to make), the cost would be 17/2 = 9, 9x9 = 81, 81gp. If you were to create a Sleep Area Flask (Sleep effect in a 15ft Diameter, DC 15 Will Save, effect lasts for 5 rounds, DC 50 to make), the cost would be 50/2 = 25, 25x25 = 625, 625gp.

Poison Flask:
The cost is DC/2 (Round up) then squared, multiplied by 2 and then converted into gp . As an example, if you take a Dexterity Poison Flask (1d6 Dex/1d6 Dex, Injury poison, DC 15 Negates, DC 35 to make), the cost would be 35/2 = 18, 18x18 = 324, 324x2 = 648, 648gp per dose.

Combined Items:
When combining items, the cost is based on the highest tier of creation. For example, if I was making a flask that did both elemental and effect, I would base the pricing off the effect. If I was basing it off elemental and poison, it would be based off the poison. Thus, once you have added the two DCs together to create your item, you then use the correct formula.

Unusual Items:
It IS possible to make unusual alchemical items and poisons using this system. For example, if I wanted to make a poison that did paralysis for 10 rounds as the initial damage, and 1d6 Dex damage as the secondary, I would use the following formula for creation.
10 (Base for Poison Flask)
+0 (No initial damage)
+5 (1d6 Dex Damage as secondary)
+10 (Inhalation poison)
+10 (DC 15 Fortitude Save)

10 (Base for Effect Flask)
+10 (Paralysis effect)
+20 (10 round duration)
+10 (DC 15 Fortitude Save)

DC 35 + DC 60 = DC 95

The creation cost would be 95/2 = 48, 48x48 = 2304, 2304x2 = 4608, 4608gp.

You now have a very unusual poison, but one that will allow you to taunt your victim whilst they lie there unable to move, is administered merely by breathing it in, and even if they do survive the 10 rounds of paralysis will leave them partially cripppled and unable to move freely.


The cost of creation is half the items market value, plus the relevant time it takes to make the check. The required DC to successfully make the item is listed by the previous formula, you MUST meet that DC to make progress. You then multiply your Craft result by the required DC, and the total is the amount of silver pieces of progress made per week. You can voluntarily increase the required DC to speed up the creation process, but you must declare that you are doing this to the DM before you make your check.

I note that high DCs will be required for special item creation, and for powerful poisons. This I accept as part of the system, as the more dangerous the item is, the harder it should be to create. This also gives higher level characters something to work towards, and gives a reason for you to have an army of underlings helping you tinker with your creations. Every Successful Aid Another action gives a +2 to the Craft check.

Also, it allows you to make sense of why the costs for items are that high, there is a difficulty inherent in making dangerous items that is quite transparent.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-22, 07:47 PM
Here are two poisons that I've created, based on existing poisons in the DMG. You can see the system in use, and the pricing difference.

Black Lotus Extract: DMG cost 4,500

Contact, Fort Save DC20, 3d6 Con/3d6 Con

Poison Flask: DC 10
+10 for contact
+30 for 3d6 Con Initial
+30 for 3d6 Con Secondary
+20 for +10 to save
= DC100 to create

100/2 = 50, 50x50 = 2500, 2500x2 = 5000, 5000gp.

The cost is slightly higher, but at the same time, many people have pointed out that the secondary damage is often pointless. Thus, you could reduce or even remove the secondary damage, thus dropping the price significantly. The creation DC would drop to 70 if you did, giving up a final cost of
70/2 = 35, 35x35 = 1225, 1225x2 = 2450, 2450gp.


Dragon Bile: DMG Cost 1500gp
Contact, Fort Save DC 26, 3d6 Str/0

Poison Flask: DC10
+10 for contact
+15 for 3d6 Str Initial
+0 for 0 Secondary
+32 for +16 to save
= DC67 to create

67/2 = 34, 34x34 = 1156, 1156x2 = 2312, 2312gp

Again, the cost is slightly higher. However, this is a very effective poison with a very high save DC. Most creatures who take 3d6 strength damage (average damage 10) will be unable to move, thus allowing you to move in for the kill.

If lower costs are required, the multiplier in the last step could be 1.5 instead of 2, thus giving us slightly lower costings. For the Dragon Bile, the cost would drop to 1,734gp, which is very close to the original costing. For the Black Lotus Extract, the cost would drop to 3,750gp, which is less than the original cost.

Of course, this is still all open for tweaking.

Akennedy
2008-09-23, 09:37 PM
Well, I love it! I may use it in conjunction with a tinkerer class I'm reworking! If you'd allow it of course!

Rei_Jin
2008-09-23, 09:40 PM
Go for it, I'd love to see others use it as much as they like. Feel free to use it however you like, just don't publish it, okay? :smallsmile:

Schinder
2008-09-24, 06:02 AM
As a general thought, to stop there being a:
Fireballing Contact 3d6 Con Poison of Entanglement... there should potentially be a "base factor" added for combining.

e.g. +5DC for combining Effects with Poison
+5DC for combining elements with poison
+7DC for combining effects with elements

Or something similar.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-24, 05:23 PM
There already is one. When you combine different flasks, you are making seperate flasks, then adding them together. Thus, the base 10 that each flask has is added in to the combined flask. When you have 3 different effects, asides from the modifiers, you're looking at adding +30 to the DC to create.