[3.5] I need a good Ur Priest build

[Frosty]

Theres a possibility that I might be playing an Athar (Athiest) in a future campaign. I'm thinking about playing an Ur priest and I need some good builds with them. I know one involves Sublime Chord, but we won't be starting at that level and I want something that'll get rolling sooner. What are some good builds for it, and also, what are the exact requirements for the class? I know you need +3 fort and will, Iron Will, some knowledge, and what else?

[Ganurath]

First level dip in Bard, Able Learner for Bluff. Five levels of Monk after that give you the saves and skills you need.

[Keld Denar]

Take a looksie into Sacreligious Fist, the Monk/Ur-Priest/Sacred Fist build. Most of them are pretty decent. You get full 9th level casting, great BAB, and good unarmed damage. If you can con (bribery or alcohol work well) your DM into letting Extra Spell add Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon sorc/wiz3) to your spell list, you'll be a decent melee powerhouse. You'll have decent starting saves, clerical goodnes, and outright baddassery.

Another interesting build would be like, Hexblade4/something/Urpriest10/stuff. Go Dark Companion and do some debuffing before you use your divine spells to pwn.

[Frosty]

Take a looksie into Sacreligious Fist, the Monk/Ur-Priest/Sacred Fist build. Most of them are pretty decent. You get full 9th level casting, great BAB, and good unarmed damage. If you can con (bribery or alcohol work well) your DM into letting Extra Spell add Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon sorc/wiz3) to your spell list, you'll be a decent melee powerhouse. You'll have decent starting saves, clerical goodnes, and outright baddassery.

Another interesting build would be like, Hexblade4/something/Urpriest10/stuff. Go Dark Companion and do some debuffing before you use your divine spells to pwn.

Great BAB? hmm...I am AFB right now, but Monk1 gives +0, Sacred fist is Full BAB I believe. What does Ur Priest give? And also, does Monk fulfill skill requirements?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

IIRC, you can take Ur-Priest after level 8. The Bard build is Bard 1/Anything Arcane(Usually Duskblade or Warmage) 7/Ur-Priest 2/SC 1/Mystic Theurge 9.

Personally, I like the idea of Swordsage 6/Crusader 2/Ur-Priest x/RKV x. Space the levels to taste.

[Ponce]

With the Bard/UrPriest/... stuff, you can go into Dragon Disciple once you have done all levels of UrPriest and gain bonus spell slots. Depending on how you build it, that could be around 3 extra 9th level spells! You already meet most reqs, all you need is 8 ranks in knowledge (arcana). Sounds like... a lot of fun, actually. Try Bard1/Monk5/UrPriest10/DD4.

[Kaihaku]

Well, argue with your Dungeon Master. If they have a lick of sense they'll probably remove the Spell Focus(Evil) requirement. I guess Spell Focus(Chaos) would make more sense anyway. :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

I've been toying with the idea of a Binder/Ur-Priest/Tenebrous Apostate (the fluff fits perfectly, and the prereqs largely overlap), but that doesn't leave any way to get the Spellcraft prereq without some more dipping.

Frosty, check out Crystal Keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php). Their PDFs are very useful, containing information on a broad array of things-- Their prestige class list, for instance, lists the requirements, basic class traits (HD, saves, etc.), and the first two levels of what the class gives. They're not complete (they don't have anything from the second round of Completes or later, and they skip all of the alternate systems like psionics and Incarnum), but they do include Ur-Priest. The other PDFs are also very useful; I'd recommend grabbing them all.

The most difficult prerequisites for Ur-Priest are Knowledge (Religion) and Spellcraft 8 ranks each, so you can enter it after five levels (which eventually means casting 9th level spells at character level 14 or 15). There are a lot of skill prereqs, though, which means you'll probably need a high-skill base class to qualify that early.

[Wolfpack]

Ur-Priest can be take as early as level 6.

In addition to Iron Will you must also take Spell Focus (Evil). And you must have a +3 Fort save as well.

Some builds are:

1)Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 10. Basic and with practiced spellcaster you have a CL equal to any other character, but with 9th level spells sooner.

2) Savage Bard 1/Wizard 4/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8. Mystic Theurge provides 1.5 CL increase and you have the same Wizard casting as ay other Theurge would have, but the best possible Ur-Priest progression.

3) Savage Bard 1/Sorcerer 1/Wizard 1/Warlock 1/Duskblade 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 5.

If you are starting at level 8 or up, this is easily viable. And even though it slows your Ur-Priest progression by one level, it is a tremendous boost to CL when you take Sublime Chord.

Basically, when it comes to classes to be taken before Ur-Priest heres the rundown:

1) Warlock: Casting stat not that important, provides all day buffs even at low CL. Very useful for a few levels if you aren't going to be progressing it later.

2) Savage Bard: Bardic Music in case you intend to go into Sublime Chord, good skills, and good fort and will saves, both the ones needed to qualify.

3) Duskblade: Spellcasting class with good Fort save, useful in combo with 4 levels of one of the many spellcasting classes with good will save, best if you intend to advance that class later.

[Frosty]

I am not certain I will have access to Savage Bard. It might not fit the character theme :(

[Keld Denar]

Maybe like:
Hexblade1 (max out Kn:Arcane and Spellcraft) Iron Will
Monk1 (max out Kn:Relig)
Monk2 (keep funneling skill points) Spell Focus: Evil
Monk3 (same)
Monk4 (Same)
Urpriest1 Improved Natural Attack
Urpriest2
Sacred Fist1
Sacred Fist2 Power Attack
Sacred Fist3
Sacred Fist4
Sacred Fist5 Divine Might
Sacred Fist6
Sacred Fist7
Sacred Fist8 Extend Spell
Sacred Fist9
Sacred Fist10
Ordained Champ1 Quicken Spell
Ordained Champ2
Ordained Champ3

I dunno, you could probably do better things with the feats, like go DMM Persist (Righeous Might) or whatever, but this isn't so bad.

I understand that this gives you more +CLs than you can use in Urpriest, and while they won't add spells/day, they will increase your effective CL, which'll make you pretty strong when you want to drop bombs like Blasphemy.

[Frosty]

Why 2 levels of Ur Priest? And can you explain how Ur Priest CL works and why this build would give me lots of CL?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Most dual-progression PrCs need at least 2nd level spells, so Ur-Priest 2.

As for the CL-shenanigans, it's because Ur-priest gives you +1 CL for every level of Ur-priest casting, and +.5 CL for every class level except Ur-Priest. So a PrC that advances casting increases CL by 1.5/level. One of the many things a sane DM won't allow, but some people insist on repeating.

[Frosty]

Plus, Sacred Fist may require turn/rebuke undead and UP2 gives that I believe.

[Chronos]

Why 2 levels of Ur Priest?Ur-Priest 2 also gives you Rebuke Undead, which of course can be used with many feats and other options.

[Frosty]

Doesn't Sacred fist require a crapload of feats to get into? I'm not sure I can spare all of them. And of course, Charisma is likely a dump stat for me so I won't have that many turns/rebukes.

[Frosty]

Well Monk 2 gives you most of them.

How about this to get more caster level and a feat?

Hexblade1/Duskblade2/Monk2/Ur Priest1/Sacred Fist10/Whatever 4?

what happens if I try to advance Ur Priest spellcasting beyond 10th level? can't do it?

I wonder what's a good race for this. Damage is going to be somewhat subpar I feel like, since I can't give my fists enchantments. I can cast GMW on myself at least. Yep. I definitely need Practiced Spellcaster.

[Keld Denar]

I like Hexblade1/Monk4 over Hexblade1/Monk2/Duskblade2. Duskblade 2 doesn't even give you channel.

In fact, a decent build might be Duskblade3/Monk2/Urpriest2/SacredFist10/X3. This would give you the ability to channel a Harm through your melee attack. That would be pretty sweet.

[Frosty]

I like Hexblade1/Monk4 over Hexblade1/Monk2/Duskblade2. Duskblade 2 doesn't even give you channel.

In fact, a decent build might be Duskblade3/Monk2/Urpriest2/SacredFist10/X3. This would give you the ability to channel a Harm through your melee attack. That would be pretty sweet.

I wanted that, but how are you going to get Bluff 6 in time?

[Keld Denar]

I wanted that, but how are you going to get Bluff 6 in time?

Martial Study? Does one of the 9 schools have bluff as the featured skill?

[Frosty]

Martial Study? Does one of the 9 schools have bluff as the featured skill?

Not a one :smallfrown: is there a feat that allows me to choose 2 skills as class skills?

[Jack_Simth]

Most dual-progression PrCs need at least 2nd level spells, so Ur-Priest 2.

As for the CL-shenanigans, it's because Ur-priest gives you +1 CL for every level of Ur-priest casting, and +.5 CL for every class level except Ur-Priest. So a PrC that advances casting increases CL by 1.5/level. One of the many things a sane DM won't allow, but some people insist on repeating.
Almost.

It gives you + 1/2 your caster level for your arcane casting classes.

As written, it technically works for the Mystic-Theurge and similar dual-progression PrC's at 1.5; single progression PrC's don't have that bug.

As for a good progression that gets rolling quickly?

Savage Bard (UA variant) 5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Savage Bard)-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord)-7.

You're up and going with Ur-Priest as soon as it's possible (qualify at 5th, take the first level at 6th). 5th level spells at Character level 10.

You're up and going with Sublime Chord as soon as it's possible (qualify at 10th, take it at 11th).

You end up with both 9th level arcane and 9th level divine casting (9th level Divine at 15th or 16th, depending on Wisdom; 9th level Arcane at 19th).

You only delay a single level on the Ur-priest spellcasting progression (at 11th, to take the Sublime Chord for later).

You've only got a fairly brief window where the build is actually better than a pure caster (14-16) due to early spell access. Otherwise, the reduced-slot nature of both the Ur-Priest and the Sublime Chord make you less effective than a pure caster, although other than the MAD (which really does hurt), you're about on par overall, with slightly more flexibility.

Notes:
Savage Bard trades the Reflex save for a Fort save, plus some other stuff that doesn't mean overly much for this, so the pure Savage Bard qualifies.
You'll need a modicum of Int, and possibly Able Learner, to make the Sublime Chord requirements at 10th level.

[Eldariel]

Apprentice from DMGII. Pick up some rogue/conartist/bard/whatever as your mentor and Bluff should be more than simple enough to get. Pick other to taste.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I've always liked Human with Able Learner, Swashbuckler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/ (Wizard PrC) 5. Go Conjurer with the PH2 variant for Abrupt Jaunt, and the UA variant to swap Scribe Scroll for Augment Summoning. Be sure to say your character has visited the Otyugh Hole from Complete Scoundrel to gain Iron Will for free. Also make sure to take Practiced Spellcaster for both Wizard and Ur-Priest. Maybe swap out Swashbuckler for the Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) variant of Fighter, along with the Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) variant. Keep in mind you don't really need to make a high-BAB build since you can get Divine Metamagic: Persistent for Divine Power by level 9.

You cannot go Mystic Theurge/ Sublime Chord/ Mystic Theurge and add any MT levels to SC spellcasting:
"When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously."
You must have at least one Sublime Chord level prior to gaining your first level of Mystic Theurge in order to add MT to your SC spellcasting.

Mystic Theurge does not add +1.5 caster level to Ur-Priest per level:
As-written, no class that does not have its own spell list and spellcasting progression is counsidered a "spellcasting class." As-written, no prestige class that advances another class' spellcasting ability will be counted for Ur-Priest's +1/2 caster level boost. Ur-Priest only counts your class levels in other spellcasting classes, not their effective spellcasting ability, not their effective level for spellcasting ability.

If prestige classes that advanced another class' spellcasting ability were considered spellcasting classes, you could go Swashbuckler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 1/ Master Specialist 10/ Archmage 2, and use Master Specialist and Archmage to advance your Mystic Theurge spellcasting, which would advance your Wizard and Ur-Priest spellcasting. This does not work, because Mystic Theurge is not a spellcasting class. Mystic Theurge also does not count for Ur-Priest's +1/2 caster level of other spellcasting classes, because it is not a spellcasting class.

Don't try to argue that "you add your Mystic Theurge level to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has," because "add the character’s ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes." Mystic theurge doesn't add to your level in that class, it doesn't grant you additional familiar abilities, bonus feats, or turn undead ability, and it doesn't count for anything based on your level in that class other than that class' spellcasting ability.

Ur-Priest doesn't care what your spellcasting ability is in any other class. A Hexblade 3/ Paladin of Tyranny 3/ Ur-Priest 1 would have a caster level of 4 despite Hexblade and Paladin of Tyranny each having an effective level of zero for their spellcasting ability. They're still spellcasting classes because they each have their own spell list and spellcasting progression, and Ur-Priest only counts your actual levels in those classes rather than their effective level of spellcasting ability.

"Mystic Theurge adds +1.5 caster level to Ur-Priest per level" is only spoken by cheaters who try to push an improper ruling or claim ignorance of the rules in order to benefit.

[Frosty]

Again, Savage bard is probably not allowed. Hmm...how can I boost myself up to CL20 with this? It sucks that non-spellcasting classes don't count for CL. I can only take Practiced Spellcaster once :smallfurious:

[JaxGaret]

Warlock6/Mindbender1/Ur-Priest2/Eldritch Disciple10 is a particularly nasty one, especially at higher levels.

If the lower levels are more important, just go Bard4/Fort1/Ur-Priest10. Pick any class with a good Fort save for the 5th level.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Which build are you looking at? Ur-Priest is entered at 6th level, apparently. If all the classes before that were casters, you have CL 3 before taking Ur-Priest levels. Toss in PS and you're good.

[Frosty]

If I were to make a Sacriligious Fist, I'd have a lot of non-caster levels...

[Darrin]

Not a one :smallfrown: is there a feat that allows me to choose 2 skills as class skills?

Yes. Flexible Mind (Dragon #326), which requires a chaotic alignment:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Flexible_Mind,Dragon

Or Skill Knowledge (Unearthed Arcana, p. 81). It either makes two skills in one class count as class skills for all your classes, or makes one cross-class skill into a class skill.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Monk 2/Duskblade 3 gives you 1.5 CL for those 5 levels. How is it not fixed by PS?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Any class that adds +1 level of Ur-Priest spellcasting still adds +1 to your Ur-Priest caster level, just as though you'd gained a level of Ur-Priest. Any classes that add +1 level to any of your other spellcasting classes don't count for Ur-Priest's +1/2 your levels in other classes for CL.

You could go Illumian with the Krau sigil for another +2 caster level, similar to Practiced Spellcaster. Illumian also qualifies for Able Learner due to being Humanoid (Human). You could even take Enhanced Power Sigils to improve it by another +1, which in the build I proposed you wouldn't even need Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard for with that. However, going Illumian with Enhanced Power Sigils has an equal feat cost to going Human with Practiced Spellcaster x2 since you're losing the Human bonus feat, but if you want to gain Practiced Spellcaster: Ur-Priest along with it you'll come out on top in caster level. You may need to use flaws to get everything you'll want/need soon enough, though.

Illumian (Krau and any other), Sneak Attack Thug 1/ Wizard (Conjurer) 4/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8/ Abjurant Champion 5, Able Learner (1), Spell Focus: Evil (Flaw), Extend Spell (Flaw), Iron Will (Otyugh Hole), Augment Summoning (Wizard 1), Persistent Spell (3), Enhanced Power Sigils (6), Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell (9), Combat Casting (12), Practiced Spellcaster: Ur-Priest (15), Quicken Spell (18) (or get Craft Wondrous Item at 18 and make a Phylactery at 20 if you can't go epic). That gets Caster Level 20 for Wizard and 19 for Ur-Priest at 20, CL 19 at level 19 for Ur-Priest. You'll have 9th level Ur-Priest spells at 14, 9th level Wizard spells at 20.

[Frosty]

Monk 2/Duskblade 3 gives you 1.5 CL for those 5 levels. How is it not fixed by PS?

Because I only have 10 levels of Ur-Priest, giving me 10 CL. Even if all other classes are spellcasting, I'd only have +15. And then Practiced Spellcaster gives me +19.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Because I only have 10 levels of Ur-Priest, giving me 10 CL. Even if all other classes are spellcasting, I'd only have +15. And then Practiced Spellcaster gives me +19.That's what Divine PrCs are for.

[Frosty]

That's what Divine PrCs are for.

So we're taking them just for the Caster levels even though the actual spellcasting won't increase?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So we're taking them just for the Caster levels even though the actual spellcasting won't increase?And the class features. Increased Rebuking and the like.

[mabriss lethe]

spellthief/ur-priest makes for an interesting flavor. AFB, so I don't know how it will all fit together.

[Chronos]

Note that since you won't get any more spells per day anyway, Heirophant is good for finishing off Ur-Priest. It's really easy to qualify for, too.

[Frosty]

Note that since you won't get any more spells per day anyway, Heirophant is good for finishing off Ur-Priest. It's really easy to qualify for, too.

Perfect. And I don't Sacrifice Spell slots either!

[Lyndworm]

spellthief/ur-priest makes for an interesting flavor. AFB, so I don't know how it will all fit together.

A Spelltheif/Ur-Preist mix is thematically excellent, but a pure Spelltheif is unable to qualify for Ur-Preist until after (at the very least) 8th level because of the requirements. You need:

6 ranks in Bluff (in-class for Spellthieves, so easily done at 3rd level)
5 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) (in class for Spellthieves, so easily done at 2nd level)
5 ranks in Knowledge (the Planes) (cross-class for Spellthieves, so not possible until 5th level)
8 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) (cross-class for Spellthieves, so not possible until 8th level)
8 ranks in Spellcraft (in class for Spellthieves, so easily done at 5th level)

You also need an Evil alignment, Spell Focus (Evil), +3 Fort, and Iron Will. However, I think that most rational DMs would waive the Evil-related requirements.


The figures given above don't include any help from feats. Some ideas:

First off, I suggest Great Fortitude, which could allow you to meet the Fortitude requirement at level 3, depending on how your DM rules.

If you have access to Ebberon feats, I suggest taking Education to qualify for Ur-Preist sooner. It makes all Knowledge skills in-class and gives a +1 bonus to any two, but has to be taken at first level.

If Ebberon's a no-go but you can use RotD feats, then I suggest Able Learner. It requires you to be human or doppelganger and must be taken at first level. It makes all skills (except Speak Language) in-class.


A Human Spelltheif can get into Ur-Preist at 6th level by picking up Able Learner, Great Fortitude, and Iron Will. If your DM requires Spell Focus (Evil), then you can't get in to Ur-Preist until after 8th level because you either need that long to pick up the skill ranks required, or you need to wait until after 9th to get Spell Focus (Evil) or Iron Will.


If you want to get into Hierophant; you'll need 15 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) (If you picked up Education or Able Learner, you can do this by 12th level), any Metamagic feat (also doable by 12th level), and the ability to cast 7th level Divine spells (a physical impossibility until your 7th Ur-Priest level with a Wisdom of at least 24, or your 8th level with a Wisdom of at least 17).

With that in mind, the absolute minimum level required to get into Hierophant with a Spellthief/Ur-Priest build is (most likely) 17th. So...

Spellthief 8
Ur-Preist 8
Hierophant 4

Spellthief Caster Level 12
Ur-Preist Caster Level 16
Three Hierophant Special Abilities

Hope I helped.

Zack

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

To get 5 ranks in a cross-class skill, you need to be at least level 7. To get 8 ranks of a cross-class skill, you need to be at least level 13.

Note that Heirophant's caster level increase still falls under the rule of applying your own bonuses in whatever order is most beneficial. A Cleric 16/ Heirophant 4 with Practiced Spellcaster has a caster level of 24, because he can add his Practiced Spellcaster bonus before adding his Heirophant bonus.

With Practiced Spellcaster: Spellthief and Able Learner, you can go Spellthief 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 10/ Heirophant 4. You'll need at least 14 Int to get the required ranks at Mindbender 1 assuming you're human, and with Practiced Spellcaster: Ur-Priest you'll have a caster level of 20 at level 20. Be sure to pick up Mindsight (LoM).

You could also go Illumian (Krau) Spellthief 1/ Warlock 3/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 8/ Heirophant 5. You'll need to use flaws to get Able Learner and Spell Focus: Evil, along with Fey/Fiendish Heritage and Fey/Fiendish Power (CM) to qualify for Mindbender so soon. You'll also need to get an exception for the Special prerequisite of Eldritch Disciple. With Practiced Spellcaster: Ur-Priest you'll have a caster level of 23 at level 20, or 24 with Enhanced Power Sigils.

[Jack_Simth]

Mystic Theurge does not add +1.5 caster level to Ur-Priest per level:
As-written, no class that does not have its own spell list and spellcasting progression is counsidered a "spellcasting class." As-written, no prestige class that advances another class' spellcasting ability will be counted for Ur-Priest's +1/2 caster level boost. Ur-Priest only counts your class levels in other spellcasting classes, not their effective spellcasting ability, not their effective level for spellcasting ability.

If prestige classes that advanced another class' spellcasting ability were considered spellcasting classes, you could go Swashbuckler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 1/ Master Specialist 10/ Archmage 2, and use Master Specialist and Archmage to advance your Mystic Theurge spellcasting, which would advance your Wizard and Ur-Priest spellcasting. This does not work, because Mystic Theurge is not a spellcasting class. Mystic Theurge also does not count for Ur-Priest's +1/2 caster level of other spellcasting classes, because it is not a spellcasting class.

Don't try to argue that "you add your Mystic Theurge level to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has," because "add the character’s ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes." Mystic theurge doesn't add to your level in that class, it doesn't grant you additional familiar abilities, bonus feats, or turn undead ability, and it doesn't count for anything based on your level in that class other than that class' spellcasting ability.

Ur-Priest doesn't care what your spellcasting ability is in any other class. A Hexblade 3/ Paladin of Tyranny 3/ Ur-Priest 1 would have a caster level of 4 despite Hexblade and Paladin of Tyranny each having an effective level of zero for their spellcasting ability. They're still spellcasting classes because they each have their own spell list and spellcasting progression, and Ur-Priest only counts your actual levels in those classes rather than their effective level of spellcasting ability.

"Mystic Theurge adds +1.5 caster level to Ur-Priest per level" is only spoken by cheaters who try to push an improper ruling or claim ignorance of the rules in order to benefit.
It's a bug, that ought to be errata'd and/or house-ruled away, but it does technically work that way:

Not due to the wording of the Ur-Priest's ability, but due to the wording of the Mystic Theurge's:


Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.(Emphasis added)
It's a bug in the rules, but his caster level is treated as though he'd also gained a level in the other class. What's the Ur-Priest calculating based on class levels? Caster level. It is very likely not intended, but technically, exactly as written, the Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-3 has a Bard caster level of 8, and an Ur-Priest caster level of 9. Mind you, except in cases where this results in a caster level above that of a pure-classes caster, it's not actually very abusive (at least, not any more than an Ur-Priest is normally - 7th level spells at character level 12, and 9th level spells at 14th is a bit much - but then, the Ur-Theurge is sacrificing the ability to grant himself three wishes per day at no XP cost due to the loss of the capstone ability, so....).

As for your specific example, the Paladin of Tyranny levels don't work - the Paladin of Tyranny is a Divine casting class, who's abilities are given up when becoming an Ur-Priest. Assuming the Duskblade is Arcane, those levels work just fine.




You also need an Evil alignment, Spell Focus (Evil), +3 Fort, and Iron Will. However, I think that most rational DMs would waive the Evil-related requirements.
No more so than a rational DM would waive the Exalted requirement for the Apostle of Peace.


First off, I suggest Great Fortitude, which could allow you to meet the Fortitude requirement at level 3, depending on how your DM rules.

... a DM can make basically any table-rule they like, but this one isn't RAW - Great Fortitude gives an unnamed bonus to Fortitude saves, it doesn't increase the base Fort save that Ur-Priest references.


If you have access to Ebberon feats, I suggest taking Education to qualify for Ur-Preist sooner. It makes all Knowledge skills in-class and gives a +1 bonus to any two, but has to be taken at first level.

This works, but with the two other feats needed, basically requires human for earliest entry.


If Ebberon's a no-go but you can use RotD feats, then I suggest Able Learner. It requires you to be human or doppelganger and must be taken at first level. It makes all skills (except Speak Language) in-class.

It does not make all skills in-class. It removes the double skill cost penalty, but leaves the cross-class skill cap in place. If you have Able Learner and a single level of Factotum, then effectively all skills are class skills thereafter - but Able Learner doesn't do it in and of itself.

But yes - if you're going pure Ur-Priest, Heirophant is a decent way to finish off those last five levels. A Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-10/Heirophant-5 is a fairly decent, if low-endurance, level-20 character.

[Chronos]

Quoth Jack Smith:
As for your specific example, the Paladin of Tyranny levels don't work - the Paladin of Tyranny is a Divine casting class, who's abilities are given up when becoming an Ur-Priest. Assuming the Duskblade is Arcane, those levels work just fine.That's probably a reasonable interpretation, but it's not actually what the class says. It says that your caster level is based on your other spellcasting classes, with the specific exception of cleric. Paladin isn't covered by that specific exception, and one could argue that it's still a spellcasting class even if you can't cast spells, just as you can argue that a paladin 3, or a paladin with 10 wisdom, is still a spellcasting class.

Quoth Biffoniacus_Furiou:
Note that Heirophant's caster level increase still falls under the rule of applying your own bonuses in whatever order is most beneficial. A Cleric 16/ Heirophant 4 with Practiced Spellcaster has a caster level of 24, because he can add his Practiced Spellcaster bonus before adding his Heirophant bonus.By that reasoning, a pure cleric 20 with Practiced Spellcaster also has a CL of 24, since he could add Practiced Spellcaster before his cleric levels. I don't think it works that way.

[Frosty]

Quoth Jack Smith:That's probably a reasonable interpretation, but it's not actually what the class says. It says that your caster level is based on your other spellcasting classes, with the specific exception of cleric. Paladin isn't covered by that specific exception, and one could argue that it's still a spellcasting class even if you can't cast spells, just as you can argue that a paladin 3, or a paladin with 10 wisdom, is still a spellcasting class.

Quoth Biffoniacus_Furiou:By that reasoning, a pure cleric 20 with Practiced Spellcaster also has a CL of 24, since he could add Practiced Spellcaster before his cleric levels. I don't think it works that way.

It does work that way, because The Hierophant adds a bonus to the cleric's base CL. you add bonuses up in the most beneficial order. Cleric 20 just has one bonus: the Practiced spellcaster.

Besides, you're sacrificing 4 effing effective spellcaster levels to get this 4-increase in CL. That's a huge sacrifice.

[Land Outcast]

What about a Mohrg (14 HD) Ur-Priest 10 with Practiced Spellcaster? (That'd be CR 13... by RAW :smalleek:)

Just give him an elite array and, after ability improvements, before items, would end up: 21, 20, -, 14, 13, 18.

After a simple enhancement to wisdom he'd end up able to cast up to ninth level spells at CL 14 (via Practiced Spellcaster).

Via Steal spell-like ability you get your pick of a kickass spell-like ability of whichever creature you decide the Ur-Priest has access...
Example: get someone to trap a Barbazu (bearded devil) via planar binding, just keep it around, don't even bother to try any offers, and your Ur-Priest has "At will— greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Caster level 12th. "

[Zeb The Troll]

Troll Patrol: Old thread is old.