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Soup of Kings
2008-09-27, 10:08 PM
So, me and my buddies were wondering what would happen if you suspended an Immovable Rod vertically in midair and slipped an empty Bag of Holding over it. We came up with a few theories...


The Bag is somehow stopped from covering the Rod
The Rod slips into the Bag and then moves with it, and can't be removed except by reaching into the bag to deactivate it
The Bag simply dangles from the Rod and can't be moved


We were also wondering, if the second case were true, what sort of uses a Movable Immovable Rod could have. For instance, what would happen if you beat someone with it?
What do you guys think?

shadow_archmagi
2008-09-27, 10:09 PM
So, me and my buddies were wondering what would happen if you suspended an Immovable Rod vertically in midair and slipped an empty Bag of Holding over it. We came up with a few theories...


The Bag is somehow stopped from covering the Rod
The Rod slips into the Bag and then moves with it, and can't be removed except by reaching into the bag to deactivate it
The Bag simply dangles from the Rod and can't be moved


What do you guys think?

Option number three. It is the only one that makes sense.

Soup of Kings
2008-09-27, 10:34 PM
Well, I thought that too, but if the Bag is an extra-dimensional pocket, would the Rod stay fixed relative to its original position, or to its position in the Bag?

monty
2008-09-27, 10:35 PM
Since the extradimensional space within the bag "moves" as the bag does, the rod would move also to remain stationary relative to the space in the bag.

Legitimate application of general relativity in a fantasy RPG? Have we killed any catgirls yet?

FMArthur
2008-09-27, 10:36 PM
Option number three. It is the only one that makes sense.

Actually, no, only #2 makes sense. The bag's contents are stored in an extradimensional (or was it nondimensional?) space, and that space has little bearing on the world (and the bag's exterior) beyond the bag's opening. The immovable rod isn't moving in that extradimensional space, but it's equivalent to moving a portal over a still object: it is transported like anything else.

Jayngfet
2008-09-27, 10:38 PM
Since it technically hasn't moved I'd say it enters the bag. From there it stays in the same spot in the bag until you enter it and deactivate it by hand.

Dentarthur
2008-09-27, 10:40 PM
We were also wondering, if the second case were true, what sort of uses a Movable Immovable Rod could have. For instance, what would happen if you beat someone with it? The same thing that would happen if you beat someone with a bag of holding that contains a +5 vorpal sword. You're just beating him with the bag, not its contents, so the rod wouldn't have any effect on him.

monty
2008-09-27, 10:41 PM
The same thing that would happen if you beat someone with a bag of holding that contains a +5 vorpal sword. You're just beating him with the bag, not its contents, so the rod wouldn't have any effect on him.

A +5 vorpal bag of holding, on the other hand...there's got to be a way to do that.

ashmanonar
2008-09-27, 10:43 PM
Since the extradimensional space within the bag "moves" as the bag does, the rod would move also to remain stationary relative to the space in the bag.

Legitimate application of general relativity in a fantasy RPG? Have we killed any catgirls yet?

There aren't any left. I don't remember the poster, but he posited a method by which 385 quadrillion damage could be dealt.

That alone killed any catgirls that ever have been, that are, and that will be.

monty
2008-09-27, 10:48 PM
There aren't any left. I don't remember the poster, but he posited a method by which 385 quadrillion damage could be dealt.

That alone killed any catgirls that ever have been, that are, and that will be.

Not to mention all the ones I killed when I reversed the black hole...(in my sig)

There's got to be a few hiding still, though. Maybe there's one somewhere in a bag of holding, clutching an immovable rod.


And that was Swordguy, if I remember right. With the anti-osmium?
Edit: here it is. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2010735#post2010735

Lert, A.
2008-09-27, 10:54 PM
I would go with #1.

As soon as the rod enters the mouth of the bag it becomes stuck in relation to the space in the bag. Basically it sits in the mouth (neck, whatever) and you can't close the bag.

As I see it.

Kaihaku
2008-09-27, 11:06 PM
Actually, no, only #2 makes sense. The bag's contents are stored in an extradimensional (or was it nondimensional?) space, and that space has little bearing on the world (and the bag's exterior) beyond the bag's opening. The immovable rod isn't moving in that extradimensional space, but it's equivalent to moving a portal over a still object: it is transported like anything else.

I'd agree, only two makes sense.

Also, bags of holding are great places to lock up liches if you can't get your hands on their phylactery.

monty
2008-09-27, 11:11 PM
Also, bags of holding are great places to lock up liches if you can't get your hands on their phylactery.

Also good for taking out living people with powerful allies. Put them in there with a bottle of air, a ring of sustenance, and a skeleton with a sap, and have it coup de grace them over and over for eternity. Drop the bag in a portable hole, and problem solved. They can't be resurrected because they technically aren't dead, and they can't be rescued because they're, well, "forever lost."

kjones
2008-09-27, 11:36 PM
All right, but what if we then put the bag of holding on an airplane, and the airplane is on a treadmill... :smallbiggrin:

Suzuro
2008-09-27, 11:37 PM
...if you drop the bag of holding in the portable hole...doesn't it create a universe shaking explosion...? Because if not, then my DM did something AWESOME.


-Suzuro

CarpeGuitarrem
2008-09-27, 11:39 PM
#2 is right, but not because the Immovable Rod moves. It never moves. It doesn't exist in the dimensions that the outside of the bag exists in. It only exists in a room-sized pocket dimension, the inside of the bag, which is a stationary dimension. Because it never moves, the rod is suspended within it.

On the outside, the bag moves just fine.

Dode
2008-09-27, 11:43 PM
Also good for taking out living people with powerful allies. Put them in there with a bottle of air, a ring of sustenance, and a skeleton with a sap, and have it coup de grace them over and over for eternity. Drop the bag in a portable hole, and problem solved. They can't be resurrected because they technically aren't dead, and they can't be rescued because they're, well, "forever lost."

I actually did something similar once with a bag of holding and the final bodily fragments needed to resurrect the god of chaos, Lord Bane. From then-on I insisted on having "the Godslayer" suffixed to my name.

ashmanonar
2008-09-27, 11:43 PM
Not to mention all the ones I killed when I reversed the black hole...(in my sig)

There's got to be a few hiding still, though. Maybe there's one somewhere in a bag of holding, clutching an immovable rod.


And that was Swordguy, if I remember right. With the anti-osmium?
Edit: here it is. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2010735#post2010735

Aha, yes. That's who it was. My brain occasionally lacks names.

BobVosh
2008-09-27, 11:50 PM
More over to do this you need to be swift. Otherwise the world would spin too fast and it would look like the "immovable" rod just started speeding west.

Two further questions: what would happen when you turn the bag inside out?

And if the rod is immovable in terms of its relative location, when it starts to go into the bag, wouldn't it get in the way of itself? It locks onto position with the first bit of it in there. Then you are pushing the rod againist itself by trying to stuff it in the bag. Sorry if I worded this poorly.

only1doug
2008-09-28, 06:34 AM
I agree that No1 is the only answer.

the extradimensional space in the bag moves relative to the bag so the rod will never go inside while active (because that would involve movement within the dimensional space).

AstralFire
2008-09-28, 06:47 AM
I actually did something similar once with a bag of holding and the final bodily fragments needed to resurrect the god of chaos, Lord Bane. From then-on I insisted on having "the Godslayer" suffixed to my name.

Puzzle Quest campaign?

Kaihaku
2008-09-28, 07:01 AM
Immovable Rod: This rod is a flat iron bar with a small button on one end. When the button is pushed (a move action), the rod does not move from where it is, even if staying in place defies gravity. Thus, the owner can lift or place the rod wherever he wishes, push the button, and let go. Several immovable rods can even make a ladder when used together (although only two are needed). An immovable rod can support up to 8,000 pounds before falling to the ground. If a creature pushes against an immovable rod, it must make a DC 30 Strength check to move the rod up to 10 feet in a single round.

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Rod, levitate; Price 5,000 gp

It's my impression that the Immovable Rod works by counterbalancing force to remain in place. I don't think it has the ability to counteract being shifted to extra-dimension shape, it's basis is a transmutation effect resembling levitation.

Ionizer
2008-09-28, 07:25 AM
A +5 vorpal bag of holding, on the other hand...there's got to be a way to do that.

That one's simple. Just slip the bag over someone's head and puncture it while their head is still inside. The head is "lost forever" and the body promptly dies. Problem solved.

Bag of Holding

This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size. The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions. Regardless of what is put into the bag, it weighs a fixed amount. This weight, and the limits in weight and volume of the bag’s contents, depend on the bag’s type, as shown on the table below.

Bag......Bag Weight...Weight Limit...Volume Limit....Market Price
Type I......15 lb..........250 lb...........30 cu. ft.........2,500 gp
Type II.....25 lb..........500 lb...........70 cu. ft.........5,000 gp
Type III....35 lb.........1,000 lb.........150 cu. ft........7,400 gp
Type IV....60 lb.........1,500 lb.........250 cu. ft........10,000 gp

If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever. If a bag of holding is turned inside out, its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again. If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate. Retrieving a specific item from a bag of holding is a move action—unless the bag contains more than an ordinary backpack would hold, in which case retrieving a specific item is a full-round action.

If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest.

Pronounceable
2008-09-28, 09:10 AM
As someone has said in another thread (can't remember either):

Ftaghn Error: Please restart the game world.

UserClone
2008-09-28, 09:28 AM
OH, now I see what the option #1 people are saying. #2 only works if the rod is activated when already inside of the bag, because getting the active Rod into the Bag in the first place involves the rod moving through the non-dimensional space that the bag contains, a feat which can't be accomplished without at least a 30 Str. and a roll of natural 20.

Edit: However, that depends on whether you look at it as the Rod moving through the space, or the space moving around the rod. I suppose actually it would HAVE to be #2, because if it were #1, anytime you activated the rod, it would swiftly zip off in the direction opposite the rotation of the planet, because it has to stay fixed at a point in space. [/catgirl death]

~Fin~

Reinboom
2008-09-28, 12:06 PM
Everybody tends to forget catgirls continually spawn and each have 4.5 lives.

For the bag of holding, I would say it depends on whether or not you want it to just be a portal, or just an opening/passage. Also, it would depend on what the immovable rod is immovable in relation to. In one case, what if only the center of the rod is the immovable 'point'? If the moment that point crossed in to the bag of holding, would the rest of the rod suddenly have the issue of dealing with an hard to move force in its way of moving through this portal?
One point that my fiancée just made (while I was typing this) was that, it must be noted that the immovable rod is not literally immovable (a strength check moves it), and since having it radically change from one plane of existence to another must be acting upon with some sort of incredible force. Thus, it would be logical that it just simply 'moves in to'.

Now, what I wonder is that if said immovable rod ever degrades towards entropy. Would it break apart in to its core materials while said materials don't move from their point in space, would it just falter as a magical item and "drop", or...

nargbop
2008-09-28, 03:57 PM
The answer to this question is : whichever is funniest. I would cast invisiblty on the Immovable Rod and leave it at crotch level for the BBEG to run into.

Curmudgeon
2008-09-28, 04:24 PM
# 2. The property of nondimensional (not extradimensional) spaces is that they allow objects to transition from outside to inside and back, but the space inside has different properties. Once the Immovable Rod is fully inside the Bag, it doesn't change position in that space.

FMArthur
2008-09-28, 04:34 PM
If the space is nondimensional, how can anything be at a particular position in there at all?

Starshade
2008-09-28, 06:30 PM
A thought i made, is if the rod's magic create a connection from it to the surrounding world to hold it(gravity, anchoring, whatever seem plausible), it cannot be really healthy for a small extra dimentional space to have something possibly try connect past it, into astral/ether or material plane.

Id go with one option, and roll a dice to see if the strange mix causes a failure on either rod or bag. Explosions are always a solution :smallbiggrin:


Its a thought i make though, if it anchor into the world, and the bag hang in loose air, what if you put a SECOND bag of holding outside the first? You would of couse loose the first bag, but its content, the rod,would possibly remain anchored into the world?
Then you would get a blown bag of holding dimention space anchored into the material plane, dangling on outside of our world, anchored by a Immovable rod in it. :smallamused:

Kaihaku
2008-09-28, 06:38 PM
An Immovable Rod is merely a levitation effect, it doesn't affect dimensions.

Chronos
2008-09-28, 07:06 PM
As the bag's opening passed over the rod, the rod's presence would force the interior of the bag into congruence with the material plane, causing it to eject any excess volume of material it contained, and rendering it a normal bag until the rod was removed.

Randel
2008-09-28, 07:59 PM
Here's a thought:

Activate an immovable rod in midair.
Put the bag of holding over it.
The immovable rod in now in the extradimensional space and pretty much moves with the inside of the bag.
Get an unbreakable rope or chain.
Tie one end of the unbreakable rope to the immovable rod and the other to the bars of a jail cell or something.
Then just walk away from the bars you want to rip out until the unbreakable rope goes taught.

Since the immovable rod is 'stationary' relative to the inside of the bag then the bars must be moving relative to the rod when the bag is moved away. Thus you can pull things with 2,000 lbs or whatever force needed to move an immovable rod just by walking calmly using the bag and rope.

Zeebiedeebie
2008-09-28, 08:09 PM
The second makes sense to me.

FMArthur
2008-09-28, 08:10 PM
At what point there do you negate the use of your own strength to pull out the bars? It's nice to have a tool that won't break, but... er, no wait, you're still pulling on the bag. Which can break. In that situation, you are benefitting from the following objects: unbreakable rope.

Draco Dracul
2008-09-28, 08:23 PM
I would say option 2 as the Immovable Rod must be relitively immovable as opposed to truely immovable as a truely immovable object (assuming that DnD doesn't take place in a Geocentric universe) would appear to fly off at high speeds becuase of the motion of the planet it is located on.

Also, what would happen if you hit an Immovable Rod with an irrestible force?

Reinboom
2008-09-28, 08:30 PM
Also, what would happen if you hit an Immovable Rod with an irrestible force?

The rod would move. "Immovable" is by name only. The rod can be moved with a strength check.

Lappy9000
2008-09-28, 08:37 PM
So, me and my buddies were wondering what would happen if you suspended an Immovable Rod vertically in midair and slipped an empty Bag of Holding over it. We came up with a few theories...


The Bag is somehow stopped from covering the Rod
The Rod slips into the Bag and then moves with it, and can't be removed except by reaching into the bag to deactivate it
The Bag simply dangles from the Rod and can't be moved


We were also wondering, if the second case were true, what sort of uses a Movable Immovable Rod could have. For instance, what would happen if you beat someone with it?
What do you guys think?

Roll 1d4-1 or a d3 if you have one, and have the DM 'Rule 0' the result. Fissixs you say? What are these 'fissixs'?

'Universe can't get much broker *TORN THROUGH TIME RIFT*
_____________________ ....n't get much broker.

Shadow_Elf
2008-09-28, 08:57 PM
I still think the best encounter ever is 4 Driders, each with a Handy Hvaersack containing 5 anvils. They Spiderclimb onto the ceiling and...

I think anyone can realize the PCs are screwed.

Mr. Zook
2008-09-28, 09:58 PM
I think #2 applies the best, but if I were the DM I would just arbitraterily change it to be the funniest thing at the moment.
Personaly, I don't feel like you should be able to move the Rods at all, when they are on the PCs plain. You know, the whole, immoveable part.
@Randel: YES!:smallbiggrin:

Jayabalard
2008-09-28, 10:20 PM
None of the above; here's what will happen:

Firstly, putting the bag over an activated rod will require a strength check, just as if you are trying to move the rod (since in essence, that's what you're doing).
If you fail the check, you can't pull the bag over the rod.
If you succeed at the check, you can pull the bag over the rod; once it's all the way in the bag, it becomes oriented with the internal space of the bag and can't be pulled out without another strength check (or deactivating it).
If you succeed at the check, but don't pull the bag all the way over the rod, the bag will pop off of the rod as soon as you let go or fail a strength check against the rod

Knaight
2008-09-28, 10:25 PM
So basically number two, just with the rod activated in the first place.

Randel
2008-09-29, 01:00 AM
When pulling the bag of holding with the immovable rod inside attached to the unbreakable rope hooked to the heavy thing you're pulling. Then you aren't relly pulling anything, just moving the bag of holding around.

Though argualby, the rod is sort of hooked into the fabric of the space inside the bag, so it might result in you having to pull the full weight of the bars since the whole contraption negates itself into just a big rope.

Or, the bag is non-dimensional as once you hook up the rope and tie the other end to the bars then the slightest tug will pull the rod out of non-space and into real space, in which case it just takes up position in the air with the rope being taught.


Though that reminds me of a problem I though about before... if you had two ring-gates (small movable portals where 'speedy thing goes in, speedy thing goes out') and one of them fell face down onto the ground... then would it be possible to lift it up from the other end? Its not like you're hooked onto anything that could move the other portal around and even if you reache int and grabbed the narrow rim of the other side, you cant just pull it back into itself. Though you could always, dig a hole in the ground under it and get a lever to lift up one side or something.


Oh, and another fun idea would be to get several full-sized bags of holding and fill them with caltrops and/or marbles then carry them over someone head and punch them inside out. the force alone from inverting the bag and 'dumbing out' all that mass in less then a second should result in some nasty velocity.

monty
2008-09-29, 01:03 AM
When pulling the bag of holding with the immovable rod inside attached to the unbreakable rope hooked to the heavy thing you're pulling. Then you aren't relly pulling anything, just moving the bag of holding around.

But the only force the rod can exert is whatever is translated through the motion of the bag, which is limited by the tension in the rope and your own strength. So you're...pulling a bag on a rope.

SeeKay
2008-09-29, 01:35 AM
None of the above; here's what will happen:

Firstly, putting the bag over an activated rod will require a strength check, just as if you are trying to move the rod (since in essence, that's what you're doing).
If you fail the check, you can't pull the bag over the rod.
If you succeed at the check, you can pull the bag over the rod; once it's all the way in the bag, it becomes oriented with the internal space of the bag and can't be pulled out without another strength check (or deactivating it).
If you succeed at the check, but don't pull the bag all the way over the rod, the bag will pop off of the rod as soon as you let go or fail a strength check against the rod


This makes the most sense. You are "moving" the rod by placing it into another dimension. Once in the bag, it'll be the first thing you hit when you put your hand in and very immovable in the bag (I hope what you need will fit around the rod). It'll stay there until another strength check is made or it is deactivated.

Oh and Nargbop, that invisible Immovable rod at "crotch" level is just EVIL! Thank you for that inspiring trap idea. :smallbiggrin:

Randel
2008-09-29, 02:07 AM
But the only force the rod can exert is whatever is translated through the motion of the bag, which is limited by the tension in the rope and your own strength. So you're...pulling a bag on a rope.

But since the bag contains a completly different section of space-time with its own rules and limits, then would the motion of objects inside the bag be directly translated to the bags outside?

In essense, if the rod is immovable and placed inside a movable section of space, according to the rod, its being stationary and the rest of the universe outside the bag is moving.

So, imagine that an immovable rod basically works by flying. When you activate it, it just sort of exerts the exact amount of force straight down to counteract gravity relative to the current grafity field. When you push the rod, it responds by exerting enough of a counter-push to put itself back into position (weather that results in it being solid like a brick in the air, or like a sort of really tough floating thing that might bob down to to pressure but then move back into position after a second is a matter of its reaction time.) If you excert more than its maximum power on it, then you can push it around.

Putting it in a bag of holding 'tricks' it into thinking that this bit of extradimentional space is the universe and it stick itself solidly into some point inside that space relative to the edges. Tie an unbreakeable rope to it and then tie the other end to a heavy object, and pulling on the bag will result in the rope going taunght and trying to pull on the rod. However, the rod by its nature doesn't want to be pulled from its assigned spot so it exerts force to move back into position. This force then goes along the rope to pull the thing you are carrying.

Essentially, an immovable rod is little more than a perpetual reactionless engine thats programmed to stick in one spot when you hit the switch and uses its total force to return to that spot. Putting in in a bag of holding just messes up its positioning enough that you can trick it into moving around and excerting that force into pulling stuff. You might be able to build a rod that you can make fly around (like a flying carpet or similar thing) but the more power you put into something that flies, the more risk that you make something that might fly into outer space if you forget to switch it off. Immovable rods just stay put, movable rods might launch into the atmospeher or bury themselves in the ocean.

Irreverent Fool
2008-09-29, 05:30 AM
That one's simple. Just slip the bag over someone's head and puncture it while their head is still inside. The head is "lost forever" and the body promptly dies. Problem solved.

This is AWESOME.

Reaper_Monkey
2008-09-29, 06:29 AM
If you really cant decide you are faced with two very easy options:

1. The rod deactivates due to the magic of the other (no rules to state this, just it makes this much much similar and you've always the *magic is mysterious* counter argument)

2. Things explode! .... well either that or things break, ie - "Well done for trying to be a smart ass, *DM smite* (some damage) and you lose both objects" if your in a good mood then you can do it in an entertaining way too.

My guess would be it would simply move into the bags event horizon and sit there till you deactivated it, and therefore move proportionally to the bag (although not letting your close the bag). Seems quite logical to me, mind there are quite a few convincing logical arguments already, so retort to a d2 and my above options should disagreements occur! :smallsmile:

Curmudgeon
2008-09-29, 06:41 AM
If the space is nondimensional, how can anything be at a particular position in there at all? That's a good question. The answer is: only in relation to the container's opening.
Handy Haversack

A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.

While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power in addition. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains.

Jayabalard
2008-09-29, 07:27 AM
the haversack would have to make a strength check to make anything other than the rod be on top. If it fails, then what you reached in for is under the rod.

DigoDragon
2008-09-29, 09:44 AM
Everybody tends to forget catgirls continually spawn and each have 4.5 lives.

So what you're saying is that Catgirls are the unstoppable force to our imovable rod problem? :smallwink:

I'm siding with the group that says the rod would enter the bag and then stop moving with respect to the dimensional pocket within that bag.

FMArthur
2008-09-29, 01:07 PM
That's a good question. The answer is: only in relation to the container's opening.

Problem: that relation to the container's opening is a distance, which despite only encompassing a single dimension, breaks the rule of 'nondimensional'. Mass without space = difficult physics. :smallfrown:

I think it basically just has an inventory with no specific order, and magic that allows the user's desired item to be the one that the hand reaching into the bag interacts with.

Zeful
2008-09-29, 01:23 PM
None of the above; here's what will happen:

Firstly, putting the bag over an activated rod will require a strength check, just as if you are trying to move the rod (since in essence, that's what you're doing).
If you fail the check, you can't pull the bag over the rod.
If you succeed at the check, you can pull the bag over the rod; once it's all the way in the bag, it becomes oriented with the internal space of the bag and can't be pulled out without another strength check (or deactivating it).
If you succeed at the check, but don't pull the bag all the way over the rod, the bag will pop off of the rod as soon as you let go or fail a strength check against the rod


So casting Teleport Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportObject.htm) requires a Strength check then?

Jayabalard
2008-09-29, 09:35 PM
So casting Teleport Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportObject.htm) requires a Strength check then?The duration of that is instantaneous, isn't it, which would mean that you aren't moving it, it just changes location. So I could see someone make an argument that you don't need a strength to use that spell, though I think I'd still require a check (though I'd probably let you substitute something suitably magic related instead of using a strength check)