[4E] The Value of a Feat

[JBento]

So, up till now I've been DMing 4E, which is, btw, a far easier job than it was in 3.X - but that's not what this thread is about, so forget I mentioned it.

I should (if the new DM comes through) be starting a new campaign in a few weeks as a player, and I'm considering going as a Swordmage.

For all you folks that did countless analysis on what feats are worth it and what feats are not, is, say, Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword) worth it, so I can deal +1dmg on average as opposed to wielding a longsword? Is weapon focus worth it? Then there's a paragon feat that does essentially the same thing (i.e., +1dmg with one weapon type) - is THAT worth it?

Then there's toughness. +5hp/tier doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Even at low levels, that's about half a hit from a non-brute. But then I remembered that half of that boosts my healing surge value... is that worth it?

Most such feats were nearly unto useless in 3.X, and this being my first time creating a char in 4E, I thought I'd ask the Playgrounders: in 4E, what IS the Value of a Feat?

[Tengu_temp]

Feats have much less value now, because the stupidly powerful ones like Shock Trooper don't exist anymore. They are still far from useless, however - Toughness is a decent one, it basically makes you count as having 1/2/3 more levels in terms of HP. Weapon proficiency feats are good too (an upgrade from 1d8 to 1d10 is only 1 more damage on average with a 1[W] power... but 7 points of damage with a 7[W] power), as well as armor proficiency in some cases (AC is hard to increase, so a feat that boosts it by 1 is worthwhile). Specific weapon-related feats are great too.

[Saph]

In general, 4e feats are significantly weaker than 3.5 feats, to the point that feats that were mediocre in 3.5 (like Improved Initiative) are very good in 4e.

Toughness is well worth it, simply because it's one of the only ways to boost your HP total. Since it also boosts your healing surge value by 1.25 HP per tier, over a long day's fighting it can make a difference. Just count the number of times players are knocked unconscious by only a few points - it's a lot.

The Weapon Focus/Weapon Proficiency thing is complicated. Taking Weapon Proficiency in a weapon with a higher damage die means you get maximum benefit out of powers with a high [W] multiplier. Taking Weapon Focus means you get maximum benefit out of powers that hit frequently with low [W] multipliers. You could spend hours crunching the numbers, but the short version is that both are worth taking if you're going to be spending most of your combat rounds hitting people with a sword.

- Saph

[JBento]

Most of my time hitting guys with a sword... hmm... yeh, that sounds likely, specially since I'm taking Aegis of Assault. Thanks loads, folks

[Kurald Galain]

is, say, Weapon Prof (Bastard Sword) worth it, so I can deal +1dmg on average as opposed to wielding a longsword? Is weapon focus worth it?
No, and yes no, respectively.

The latter, because Nearly all of your powers involve hitting somebody with a weapon (or spell, or implement). Key word being "hitting". Anything that improves your to-hit, even by +1, is worth it - although most feats that do so are paragon-level. Well, except the Sure Strike power, since it doesn't really do anything on a hit. Likewise, you should start with a prime ability as high as possible; and conversely, anything that lowers your to-hit (like power attack on heroic tier, or not using a +3-proficiency-bonus weapon) is a bad idea.

The former, Bonuses on damage aren't nearly as big a deal, because they don't increase your damage by all that much, and don't affect the useful side effects of many powers (daze, ongoing, etc). Whether you do 1d10+4 or 1d10+5 isn't really a big difference.

Toughness is decent, if not great. That it boosts your surge value is mostly irrelevant, because you do not want to be second winding in combat, ever, unless you're a dwarf, and because your surge value should be boosted by the resident warlord or cleric anyway. +5 hit points, however, can mean remaining in the fight for another round. Personally, I would take it at levels 1-4, then retrain it, then take it back at levels 11-14, or thereabouts.

For a swordmage, you probably want the feat that lets you substitute int for str on your at-will attacks. Depending on your race, some of the racial feats are worth it (although many are not!) And the best feats in the game are the multiclass feats; Quarry or Sneak Attack once per combat is always nice, and you get a skill thrown in for free.

(edit) oops. Thanks, Saph.

[Saph]

No, and yes, respectively.

The latter, because nearly all of your powers involve hitting somebody with a weapon (or spell, or implement). Key word being "hitting". Anything that improves your to-hit, even by +1, is worth it.

3.5 to 4e changes, remember. Weapon Focus increases your damage now, not your to-hit. :) To-hit bonuses are incredibly hard to get in 4e, except via another character.

- Saph

[Tengu_temp]

Actually, 4e has a feat that lets you increase your attack bonus - it's called Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword, Triple-Headed Flail, Fullblade or Greatspear).

[Awesomologist]

Actually, 4e has a feat that lets you increase your attack bonus - it's called Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword, Triple-Headed Flail, Fullblade or Greatspear).

Weapon Proficiency only allows you to use a weapon that isn't granted to you by your class (usually used on superior weapons).
Weapon Focus ads +1 to Damage at Heroic, +2 at Paragon, +3 at Epic.

Dwarven Weapon Training grants a +2 Damage to ALL axes and hammers and proficiency to all axes and hammers, this includes the new superior ones in the adventurer's vault.

Eladrin Soldier grants a +2 Damage to longswords and spears and proficiency with all spears.

Eladrin Swordmages get a slight boost with Eladrin Soldier, but if you're not Eladrin go with Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword.
That being said I would suggest your first two feats as a Swordmage should be Intelligent Blademaster (Use your Intelligence instead of Strength for basic attacks) and Escalating Assault.

Blade Opportunist grants a +2 to opportunity attacks when using a light or heavy blade.

[JBento]

I THOUGHT about blade opportunist... but then I noticed that the attack granted by Aegis of Assault isn't an opportunity attack, so it might not be that useful for me, since that's where my immediate reaction for the turn is probably going.

As for the other two feats, that's what I was aiming for for levels 1-2 :smallbiggrin:

P.S.: I'm problably going Stormsoul Genasi

[Mando Knight]

I THOUGHT about blade opportunist... but then I noticed that the attack granted by Aegis of Assault isn't an opportunity attack, so it might not be that useful for me, since that's where my immediate reaction for the turn is probably going.

As for the other two feats, that's what I was aiming for for levels 1-2 :smallbiggrin:

P.S.: I'm problably going Stormsoul Genasi

Take Bastard Sword proficiency and Intelligent Blademaster. You won't have the Strength or the Dexterity to take Heavy Blade Opportunity (Intelligence pretty much handles both for a Swordmage, and you can use Con for your Fortitude), so Intelligent Blademaster covers both your Aegis of Assault and your opportunity attacks. Your only shortcoming here is that you won't be able to use Heavy Blade Mastery in epic levels because you need 21 Strength and 17 Dexterity, which most Swordmages won't have.

You'll want some Strength, just so you can increase the power of attacks such as Greenflame Blade, but mostly you need Intelligence, and should take feats that take advantage of it.

Escalating Assault works (plus, it gives you the ever-so-elusive + to hit), as does Elemental Assault (Genasi assault Swordmages only). Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade) is almost a must, since you'll be dealing very little damage per hit. Unfortunately, the elemental damage feats (Astral Fire, etc.) usually don't stack with Weapon Focus (unless your DM says that they do since one activates because of your weapon and the other activates because of the attack's element).

As a Genasi, you may want to take some of the racial feats that boost your elemental resistances, so you'll be able to stand in the front lines and take all of the nasty elemental attacks that monsters may have waiting for you.

[Deepblue706]

Feats don't matter in 4E until Paragon. Just pick up racial stuff until then.


Feats have much less value now, because the stupidly powerful ones like Shock Trooper don't exist anymore.

What's funny is that Shock Trooper is a tactical feat because it supposedly provides "several abilities that are too weak to be individual feats". Lolz.

[JBento]

Right. A bit more thought into the char and I think I've gotten the ability scores down:

Str: 11+2=13 (for the Hide armour prof)
Dex: 10
Con:14
Int: 18+2=20
Wis: 8
Cha: 10

Funnily enough, my Will defense sucks (but gets +2 for being a swordmage). This may be a 3.X effect, but I'm finding it odd that my best save, er, defense, doesn't get boosted by any of the class-related scores...

[Edea]

3.5 to 4e changes, remember. Weapon Focus increases your damage now, not your to-hit. :) To-hit bonuses are incredibly hard to get in 4e, except via another character.

- Saph

There is one very specific 'wtf' exception in regards to otherwise elusive accuracy rate augmentation: Brutal Scoundrel rogues that multiclass into Fighter can get access to the Fighter powers in the eladrin article on Dragon 366. They add Strength and Dexterity to the attack roll -simultaneously- when using (surprise, surprise) a light blade (they also work with heavy blades and spears). Even -worse-, the level 3 Fighter power grants auto-CA vs. the target next turn on a hit.

Another minor combo is the Feylock's Bewitching Whispers power. Send a sticky Fighter into the fray, then use this on him. Now all of his OAs have your Intelligence modifier added to the rolls for that turn, and he was already getting his Wisdom and Strength modifiers on top of that o_o. You could also do this to a Watcher in the Night, and have him SA on OAs with much greater reliability (ow). Since it's an arcane encounter power, there are multiple methods available for recharging it.

[its_all_ogre]

the feats that you're likely to get most out of are:
racial feats, many of these are that good
class based feats: again as above (but not all i don't rate expanded spellbook or the cha based warlord one. int based warlord one rocks though)
armour proficiency/shield/weapon ones can be very handy.
i like toughness myself and imp intiative for a wizard and rogue is good
(rogue for first strike, wizard for AoE before enemies become intermingled with allies)

many of the +2 damage with weapon x are good depending on what class you are. rangers with dual strike retain that bonus damage whil they don't get to add str/dex for example. seen this work wonders for them.

[its_all_ogre]

Right. A bit more thought into the char and I think I've gotten the ability scores down:

Str: 11+2=13 (for the Hide armour prof)
Dex: 10
Con:14
Int: 18+2=20
Wis: 8
Cha: 10

Funnily enough, my Will defense sucks (but gets +2 for being a swordmage). This may be a 3.X effect, but I'm finding it odd that my best save, er, defense, doesn't get boosted by any of the class-related scores...

what race gives +2 int and str??

[Edea]

what race gives +2 int and str??

That would be the Genasi.

[JBento]

The Genasi. They popped up in the FR Player's Guide, just as the Swordmage

Edit: ninja'd - need a better perception score... ah well, guess that's what 8 Wis will get ya...

[Kurald Galain]

Funnily enough, my Will defense sucks (but gets +2 for being a swordmage).
That's because you're investing in both str and con. You have no need to do that; it's better to remove those con points and dump them into cha, and if the slight lack of hit points bother you, either take the toughness feat, or take that regional ability (also from the FR handbook) that lets you base hit points on your intelligence.

[Awesomologist]

what race gives +2 int and str??

Genasi do. I actually prefer a little more Dexterity so you can at least pick up Heavy Blade opportunity. Sometimes it's just better taking an opportunity attack over using your aegis of assault, especially if you can use Booming Blade on an enemy trying to get past you.

[JBento]

Actually, those Con points are nearly as much of a boost for Swordmage powers as Strength is, AND I need 13 Con for Hide prof and 15 Con for Hide spec

[Yakk]

Bastard sword is +1/+2 normal/crit damage per die of damage in your attack.

Weapon Focus is +1 damage per tier.

Your dice tend to go up faster than your tiers do, so ... weapon focus is generally weaker than bastard sword.

Each +1 to hit is worth about +10% damage on a hit.

If you want to work out your average damage, presume 4 encounter days and 5 round encounters.

That's ~20 rounds per day, and 4 uses of encounter powers per day. Plus 2 action points, gives you 22 rounds of combat.

(Note that you can easily pass this point, but this is a first approximation).

So add up each daily average damage + 4*each encounter average damage. Then take at-will damage times (22 minus daily power rounds, minus per-encounter power rounds).

Vs non-AC is worth +20% damage. Each +1 to hit is worth +10% damage.

That will give you a rough "daily damage budget", and you can determine the impact of various feats on your daily damage budget, and get a feel for which is better. :-)

[AstralFire]

Ladies and Gents... Professor Yakk.

[Malek]

Weapon Proficiency only allows you to use a weapon that isn't granted to you by your class (usually used on superior weapons).
Wrong except the part on superior weapons. Except for superior weapons which explicitly state that you need proficiency to use them, you can use any weapon not only those your class is proficient with. What proficiency does for most weapons is allowing you to add the to-hit bonus listed at the weapons table (so Weapon Focus does increase accuracy, though indirectly and only for weapons you aren't proficient wiht already :smalltongue:)

[Tengu_temp]

Weapon Proficiency only allows you to use a weapon that isn't granted to you by your class (usually used on superior weapons).


Yes, and?

Bastard Sword is the same as Battleaxe, only with additional +1 to attack and a heavy blade instead of an axe. Same deal with Fullblade and Greataxe. Triple Headed Flail and Greatspear are Flail and Longspear with additional +1 to attack.

[skywalker]

Wrong except the part on superior weapons. Except for superior weapons which explicitly state that you need proficiency to use them, you can use any weapon not only those your class is proficient with. What proficiency does for most weapons is allowing you to add the to-hit bonus listed at the weapons table (so Weapon Focus does increase accuracy, though indirectly and only for weapons you aren't proficient wiht already :smalltongue:)

How does weapon focus improve your accuracy? It doesn't give you proficiency and adds to bonus to-hit.

Also, using a weapon you don't get a proficiency bonus for is Dumb. As. Hell.

[Mando Knight]

Wrong except the part on superior weapons. Except for superior weapons which explicitly state that you need proficiency to use them, you can use any weapon not only those your class is proficient with. What proficiency does for most weapons is allowing you to add the to-hit bonus listed at the weapons table (so Weapon Focus does increase accuracy, though indirectly and only for weapons you aren't proficient wiht already :smalltongue:)

Incorrect. You can use superior weapons without proficiency, it's just stupid. Weapon Proficiency gives you the "Proficiency Bonus" on the weapon table, non-proficiency gives no proficiency bonus. It's possible to use a Mordenkrad or Bastard Sword without proficiency, but you're missing out on a 10-15% to-hit on it.

Weapon Focus increases damage, not accuracy. Increasing the amount of damage you deal on a hit will not increase the attack's accuracy: you could have an attack that deal arbitrarily large amounts of damage on if it hits, but if it never hits, then its increased damage is useless.

A level 1 Dragonborn Fighter with Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade) using a Fullblade will deal d12+1 on a hit, but if he took Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade) he'd deal d12 on a hit with a +3 to hit. The former against a foe with an AC of 20 will have (Str modifier)/20*100% chance to hit, or (say he has 18 Str) 25% chance to hit (16, 17, 18, 19, 20), dealing d12+5 or 11.5 damage on an average hit, or 3.21875 per round (including critical). The latter will hit (Str+3)/20*100%, or 35% of the time (13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20) dealing d12+4 (10.5 average), or 3.95 damage per round on average. With neither feat but the same attributes and weapon, it's 10.5 average damage 25% of the time, or 2.96875 damage per round. The Weapon Proficiency deals nearly +1 damage per round compared to a +0.25 damage for the Weapon Focus.

I think that it's because of this that WotC made +to hit feats hard to come by...

[KillianHawkeye]

Genasi do. I actually prefer a little more Dexterity so you can at least pick up Heavy Blade opportunity. Sometimes it's just better taking an opportunity attack over using your aegis of assault, especially if you can use Booming Blade on an enemy trying to get past you.

Just to note that Immediate Actions and Opportunity Actions are not at all the same. You only get 1 Immediate Action per round, but you can have 1 Opportunity Action per opponent's turn (provided that such an opportunity exists and you are within range to take it).

[Malek]

How does weapon focus improve your accuracy? It doesn't give you proficiency and adds to bonus to-hit.
Me bad, it was supposed to be Weapon Proficiency there in last line of my speech. Thats what I get for writing posts right before going to sleep.


Incorrect. You can use superior weapons without proficiency, it's just stupid. Weapon Proficiency gives you the "Proficiency Bonus" on the weapon table, non-proficiency gives no proficiency bonus. It's possible to use a Mordenkrad or Bastard Sword without proficiency, but you're missing out on a 10-15% to-hit on it.
Check PHB page 215 under Weapon Categories - when describing superior weapons it quite blantly tells you that you need special training to use them, and even goes at far as to mention Weapon Proficiency feat.

[JBento]

Yakk gives out a lesson on calculate-feat-efficiency-yourself

:smalleek: Wow! Just wow! That's quite amazing. Now I just need to tweak here and there (to compensate for powers that hit more than one time) and you, sir, er, alpine mammal, have just been of fulcral help to not only this but any other character I might make.

Also, kudos to Killian for catching that - it never came up when I DM, but it might be important now (though I'm still not sure I have enough feats for Blade Opp).

And note to all the other (very) helpful people around - I'll be using Weapon Prof (BS) to actually get +1dmg on average, potentially +2 (due to the versatile, depending on how the DM rules the Swordmage warding hands thingy), since I have WP (LS) from the class (so BS increases my damage die from 1d8 to 1d10)

[JBento]

Right. Here's what I've got so far for the Heroic Tier (though I'm away from the PHB for the moment, so I may have missed some vital feat from there, though):

1: Intelligent Blademaster
2: Armour Proficiency (Hide)
4: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
6: Escalating Assault
8: Elemental Assault
10: Extra Manifestation (Watersoul)

What do you folks think?

[Yakk]

Oh yes -- and extra crit damage is worth 10% of normal damage (if you crit on a 20), +10% for every extra point of crit width.

Finally, note that the "daily damage budget" it calculates is off by exactly a factor of two -- (you should halve the result), because for ease of math's sake, I presume a 50% hit chance, and normalize around that.

Miss damage is worth as much as hit damage (-10% for every additional point of accuracy you have on your weapon).

Reliable powers take the place of at-will damage in their second iteration.
The average damage contribution that a reliable power that does X damage per hit, while your at-will is worth W DPR, is:
R = X*.5 + .5*(R-W)
R = X*.5 + .5R - .5W
.5 R = X*.5 - .5W
R = X - W
Now, in the above equation, R and W is in DPR. We are actually calculating 2R in the old post, so we get:
2R = 2X-2W
similarly, 2W is the (hit damage, +10% per point of extra accuracy) + (miss damage, -10% per point of extra accuracy) value.

So... for a reliable power, the value is:
(Hit damage * 2) - (At-will damage budget contribution)
where your Hit damage is scaled up/down by accuracy and critical damage contribution. :-)

The "normalize so that a basic attack is equal to it's average hit damage" trick might not be fully worth it, but I sort of like it.