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BardicDuelist
2008-10-01, 10:29 PM
So, I want to build a Swordmage/Wizard, and I have a question about spellbooks. Can you (assuming after you have taken Adept power, which lets you have a daily from your second class) use Expanded Spellbook along with Student of Swordmagic? How would this work?
Assuming it does work, would you:
A) Learn a Wizard daily attack spell for every level that you know a daily attack spell?
B) Learn a Wizard daily attack spell for only the level that your swapped power is from?

I think A may be supported by the lack of the phrase "wizard attack spell" before the phrase "every level that you know" in the first instance appearing within the text for expanded spellbook.

Also, even if B is true, does that mean that if you retrain that spell, you effective gain two more spells so long as the new spells are at a different level than the one retrained? You would lose the spell retrained, but you would also gain a level of daily wizard attack spells (here it specifically states wizard, by the way), which would allow you to learn one extra spell (as per expanded spellbook).



If you replace a spell because of gaining a level or
through retraining, the previous spell vanishes from
your spellbook and is replaced by the new spell.

STUDENT OF SWORDMAGIC


When you choose this feat, select a second
swordmage daily attack power for each level at which
you already know a swordmage daily attack power,
and add those powers to your spellbook. After an extended rest, you can prepare a number of daily
spells according to what you can cast per day for your
level. You canít prepare the same spell twice.
Whenever you learn a new level of swordmage
daily attack powers, add two different swordmage
daily attack spells of that level to your spellbook.
If you retrain a daily swordmage attack power, you
replace only one of your two choices for that level. If
you replace the power with a power from a different
class (through multiclassing) or a swordmage daily
attack power of a higher level, you replace both spell
choices with the new power or powers.

EXPANDED SPELLBOOK


Choose one daily wizard attack spell of
every level you know. Add this spell to your spellbook.
Each time you gain a new level of daily wizard
attack spells, you learn one extra spell of that level (in
other words, add three spells to your spellbook instead
of only two).
This feat doesnít change the number of daily attack
spells you can prepare each day.

Mando Knight
2008-10-01, 11:11 PM
I'd say that if you use a power-swap feat to replace a Swordmage power with a Wizard power, you'd replace all of the Daily or Utility powers from the swapped level of Swordmage with the powers from the same level of Wizard.

Also, the Expanded Spellbook text seems to state that if you have Expanded Spellbook, you add a bonus Wizard spell to every level of Daily or Utility Wizard spells you know... so a Swordmage/Wizard with Student of Sword Magic and Expanded Spellbook would gain 2 Daily spells or 2 Utility spells whenever he gains a level, but if he switches a Swordmage power out for a Wizard power, he trades in both of his Swordmage powers of that level for three Wizard powers of that same level.

For example, at level 15, he trades in Acid For Blood and Inferno's Sword for Prismatic Beams, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, and Blast of Cold.

BardicDuelist
2008-10-01, 11:14 PM
I'd say that if you use a power-swap feat to replace a Swordmage power with a Wizard power, you'd replace all of the Daily or Utility powers from the swapped level of Swordmage with the powers from the same level of Wizard.

So you would (with expanded spellbook) get three Wizard ( powers for two Swordmage powers, since the Wizard gains two powers per level plus one from expanded spellbook?

NPCMook
2008-10-01, 11:22 PM
The Wizard's Spellbook is a class feature which you technically do not gain from multi-classing to a wizard. So you would actually only gain 1 Daily/Utility from power swap feats, not 2 as a normal wizard would, so if you take the Expanded Spellbook, you would then be allowed to take the 2 Daily/Utility powers as normal.

Mando Knight
2008-10-01, 11:22 PM
So you would (with expanded spellbook) get three Wizard ( powers for two Swordmage powers, since the Wizard gains two powers per level plus one from expanded spellbook?

Heh. I edited my first post with that info while you were posting...

EDIT: Ah, NPC Mook. Thanks for catching that. I'd forgotten that only "proper" Wizards (Wizard @ level 1 without MC feat) gain the benefit from the Spellbook class feature. In that case, a class with a spellbook multi-ing into a non-spellbook class will have to trade out both of its powers for one of the other class's, and a Swordmage or Wizard multi-ing into the other will have to take either Expanded Spellbook (Swordmage-Wizard) or Student of Sword Magic (Wizard-Swordmage) in order to get 2 powers for 2 powers...

BardicDuelist
2008-10-01, 11:25 PM
The Wizard's Spellbook is a class feature which you technically do not gain from multi-classing to a wizard. So you would actually only gain 1 Daily/Utility from power swap feats, not 2 as a normal wizard would, so if you take the Expanded Spellbook, you would then be allowed to take the 2 Daily/Utility powers as normal.

Right. I got that part. I was wondering how this worked in reference to retraining.

Mando Knight
2008-10-01, 11:28 PM
Right. I got that part. I was wondering how this worked in reference to retraining.

Exactly as it says in the text for the Student of Sword Magic feat. Apparently, that's what WotC meant for the Wizard spells, too, but didn't clarify sufficiently in the PHB.

NPCMook
2008-10-01, 11:30 PM
I think you misread my post, I'm saying since you are multiclassing into Wizard through Arcane Initiate, you would only gain a single Daily/Utility Wizard power through Power-Swap feats.

If you take Student of Swordmagic, along with Expanded spellbook, which technically increases the number of Daily/Utilities of that level you can take by 1. So using Acolyte Power, and Adept Power would normally yield only gaining 1 power form you wizard class, if you have Expanded Spellbook you now would gain 2 when you swap powers.

BardicDuelist
2008-10-01, 11:34 PM
I think you misread my post, I'm saying since you are multiclassing into Wizard through Arcane Initiate, you would only gain a single Daily/Utility Wizard power through Power-Swap feats.

If you take Student of Swordmagic, along with Expanded spellbook, which technically increases the number of Daily/Utilities of that level you can take by 1. So using Acolyte Power, and Adept Power would normally yield only gaining 1 power form you wizard class, if you have Expanded Spellbook you now would gain 2 when you swap powers.

Yes, I understand that part now.

What happens if you retrain and gain a higher level power? Do you gain two powers then (since it is a new wizard level power)?

NPCMook
2008-10-01, 11:41 PM
Yes, for every Daily and Utility power you would gain 2 powers of that level since you have Expanded Spellbook

BardicDuelist
2008-10-01, 11:47 PM
Yes, for every Daily and Utility power you would gain 2 powers of that level since you have Expanded Spellbook

Do I get to keep the one that I didn't retrain?

NPCMook
2008-10-01, 11:54 PM
No, when you retrain you are replacing all the spells of that level, using Adept Power you take 2 level 9 dailies from your wizard class, and later on retrain them a higher level, but still regularly use one of the level 9 Dailies, you would have to retrain both level 9 dailies for the higher level ones