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Eldariel
2008-10-02, 10:37 PM
So I'm thinking of running an epic one-shot where the party has to free a country that's being controlled by a (disguised) Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon (evil Bronze Dragon - I dislike the "color codings" of the Dragons so in my games, the colour does not confer information on the alignment).

Now, while much of the game will probably be political trickery, traps, information gathering and such, they'll eventually have to confront the Dragon and the Dragon is going to be prepared. That'll obviously be the climax. Now, the task I'm on is building the Dragon. Since we're talking about a Great Wyrm, it'll pack the heat. So now I'm trying to optimize it to best use its Epic feats, spellcasting, physical power, flight and such abilities when the beguiling skills are no longer sufficient. Therefore, I'd appreciate ideas for pimping out the Dragon. So far, I've got:

Feats:
Quicken Spell
Extend Spell
Persistent Spell
Power Attack
Quicken Breath
Hover
Practiced Spellcaster

7 epic feats

Epic Spellcasting
Multispell
Multispell
Automatic Quicken
Automatic Quicken
Automatic Quicken (automatically quickens 9th level spells)
Permanent Emanation: Repulsion

Skills:
Int 26 with 39 HD, able to max out 14 skills (unless I decide it's pumped its stats with Wishes for extra Int) for 42 ranks. I was thinking:
Spot
Listen (their epic uses make pretty much all sorts of beguiling abilities trivial vs. it - I'm trying to pump the Spot-check to reach DC 80 consistently though)
Search
Diplomacy
Bluff
Gather Information
Sense Motive
Disguise
Intimidate

Concentration
Spellcraft
Knowledge (Arcana)
Knowledge (Religion)

smattering the remaining 42 points across the remaining Knowledges, Appraise, Forgery, Decipher Script, Tumble, etc.



I have to think about the spell selection, since much of the creature's potency comes from it, and epic spells it's developed (I'll probably limit Epic Spellcasting to half the spell's DC in mitigating factors and make it CL-based). At the present, I'm thinking of an Epic Ward which bans Time Stop (don't know which other spells to bother with - Shivering Touch, probably), an Epic Dispel-effect (probably an Epic version of Dispelling Breath) and few Epic stat boosters (I think Cha in the 50s, Con in the 50s, Dex in the 50s and Wis in the 50s would all be very helpful).

For the spell selection though, beyond the obvious control-spells, no-save offense, mobility and protection (Scintillating Scales, Wings of Cover, Greater Mirror Image, Greater Mage Armor, Contingency, Heal, etc.) I'm a bit stumped. With 3 Quickened spells per turn, it should be able to decently match the players' action economy (as long as Time Stop isn't involved, hence the Epic Ward) and Free Action Breath and the actual Full-Round Action further compound that. With base CL of 23 (and items to boost it), it should have around the same CL as the party, so the spell battle should be rather equal. Thanks to Permanent Emanation, melee should never be an issue and Wind Wall/Wall of Force-type effects should allow it to counteract archery pretty easily (along with Scarab of Invulnerability).


Anyways, if you've got some suggestions for the spells (especially the Epic ones), items, and for changes to the feats/skills, do tell. I'd like for it to be a pretty tough battle if they do manage to get to the bottom of it.

Adumbration
2008-10-02, 11:32 PM
You should definitely up his maneuverability, just in case. The pectoral from Draconomicon is good for this - ups it by two steps. You should also consider Clinging breath to use in conjunction with Quicken breath - it will take a long time to recover anyway, so you might as well add a couple dozen turns when they take the half the damage over and over.

Another nice item is Dragonarmor of Invincibility. +12 AC, and enchants all your natural weapons as +5. Costs a lot, but might be worth the investment.

You should definitely buy Lair wards. Cavern of the earthbound - prevents flight. Platform of healing could be nice.

You might also want to consider taking a prestige class for him.

SadisticFishing
2008-10-02, 11:44 PM
I would most definitely take Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike.

Instead of Claw Claw Wing Wing Bite Tail

It becomes Claw Claw Claw Claw Claw Claw Wing Wing Wing Wing Wing Wing Bite Tail.

That's a pretty big up, especially since he's quickening his spells,and has time to full round attack.

Also, add in certain spells that give Pounce, or Wraithstrike, and you have a melee monster.

Cuddly
2008-10-03, 12:25 AM
Permanent Repulsion would make rapid strike, etc, useless. Or at least, counter-productive.

Have you thought about picking up, say, a level of archmage, and having a shaped AMF permanent emanation? I'm pretty sure you can do that.

SadisticFishing
2008-10-03, 12:36 AM
For some reason that this game is epic did not register.

My advice may be useless - what is Permanent Repulsion?

Eldariel
2008-10-03, 12:44 AM
I was planning on not using class levels on the Dragon - I'm of the opinion that Great Wyrms are powerful enough without them. Also, thanks for the suggestions. Quick recap:

Adumbration: I was thinking of maybe switching Hover for Improved Flight - if the Dragon possessed an item that improves flight by two categories, that would give it Good maneuvrability, which would be plenty.

Clinging Breath I considered, but couldn't fit without losing out on some other mundane feats I considered more important. I really want to keep Power Attack simply because some kind of massive dead magic zones/anti-magic effects do exist and it seems really dumb for an Int 30+ Dragon to not be prepared to use its impressive physical bulk in those sitiuations (especially since it already physically has pretty much everything it needs - except Hover, which is why I went for that feat over Improved Flight in this version).


Lair Wards will probably be rather inefficient as the action will probably be mostly taking place in the capitol of the country the Dragon is manipulating, and the party will probably fight the Dragon there rather than at its Lair. That said, I will cram some Lair Wards at its Lair since it again doesn't make sense that a Dragon would leave its hoard unprotected.

Where is the Dragonarmor of Invincibility from? I couldn't find it in Draconomicon, yet it sounds like an item that belongs there. If it offers better protection than the spells, the Dragon is probably well-adviced to acquire one of those.


SadisticFishing: It's probably not going to fight in melee that much. First of all, it's more like to waste actions by attacking (only to have the target teleport away or some such stupidity), but it's also less likely to just drop people than Avasculating, Maw of Chaosing, Breathing and just overall, battlefield annihilating away. In all likelihood, the Full-Round Action will be used on some slower-to-cast spells or move+readied action. That is not to say though I wouldn't let it deactivate Repulsion, Lion's Pounce Power Attack Charge someone and reactivate Repulsion just for variety though. I don't think that's worth spending more feats on though.

I've also got the issue of really running short on feats - most of the present feats are needed just to give it casting on par with what the PCs will probably field.


Cuddly: I'm not sure that's legal - it doesn't seem like Permanent Emanation actually allowed much in terms of alterations to the spell (it's pretty clear metamagic can't be used with it), which leads me to believe it doesn't work with Mastery of Shaping either.

That said, since I'm hoping to make the Dragon a worthwhile opponent without class levels, I wouldn't be thrilled about going for that anyways.


EDIT: Permanent Emanation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#permanentEmanation) is an Epic feat which makes an emanation spell permanent. Repulsion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/repulsion.htm) is your average 6th level defense spell. Combined, you can activate and deactivate Repulsion as many times as you want to pushing anyone around you away every turn (unless they have nutty saves and can't fail on ones).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-03, 12:57 AM
Remember that it can learn any spell from the Cleric list as well. That opens up spells like Heal and Stormrage. It should also have the feat Improved Flight (RotW), and/or a Greater Pectoral of Maneuverability (DCN).

I would play it as an extremely tricky spellcaster. Give it Improved Counterspell and Improved Initiative to get Reactive Counterspell (MoF, PGtF). That will allow it to counterspell every round without readying an action to do so, and its counterspell will automatically be quickened. It should use Superior Invisibility (SC), Nondetection (DC 37 to see it via True Seeing or any other spell of the divination school), and make liberal use of Project Image and Simulacrums. It should have Iceberg (FB) among its spells known, there's nothing better for completely screwing a group of opponents. It should also have either MDJ or Chain Dispel (PH2), and/or there should be a permanent Greater Dispelling Screen (SC) which they must pass through in order to reach it.

Nobody knows its true name, and it has used a Wish or Miracle to make it impossible for anyone to learn it, simply so that a Gate kill won't work if you haven't already houseruled that spell.

Give it combat-specific feats for its lower HD, and buffing, healing, and condition removing spells at its lower caster levels so that its Simulacrums will be likewise equipped. I gave some similar advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86672) in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4645537&postcount=15), and much of that can be applied to this situation. It should use Summon Monster spells, Summon Undead, undead creation, golems, charmed monsters, and simulacrums to fight the PCs directly, while casting spells from a Projected Image.

Talic
2008-10-03, 01:04 AM
Personally, I find if you're optimizing a dragon for high level, the following tacks can be used:

1) Readjust stats. Stats listed are for typical members of the race. That said, dumping Strength a bit to pump Dex is useful. Follow up with dex boost book, and perfect multiweapon fighting. Follow up with 1 handed weapons in the claws, a mouthpick weapon, prehensile tail (serpent kingdoms) with a weapon in the tail. If you can locate a weapon that is not natural to replace wing buffet, awesome. Each weapon is 4 attacks, BAB progression and all that. Even without wing buffet weapons, it's up to 16 attacks a round. Follow up with Permanent emanation (Antimagic Field), a Str boost book, and you've got some serious melee output... Especially with Wraithstrike as one of the spells it has, and Power Attack. (it can free action lower the AMF for its attack and reraise it)

2) Smaller is better. Go with an Ancient, and throw in enough cleric levels to choke a donkey (up to its HD is 2 levels for 1 CR). Once you hit 21, take epic spellcasting. Eat party.

EDIT: In response to OP and Automatic Quicken x3, I'd suggest x2. Without a way to lengthen your casting time, you can't change those quickened spells to standard actions, which means, by RAW, you'd be losing your standard action every round (unless you're gishing it up). Alternately, a single Arcane Spellsurge spell does everything you're looking for with the quickening. Follow it up with metamagic feats to extend the cast time of 1 spell per round, and you're good.

Chineselegolas
2008-10-03, 01:14 AM
One vital spell to make sure the dragon knows. Scintillating Scales.
From Spell Compendium. Second level arcane that converts the Natural Armour to Deflection.
Fixes that weakness to touch attacks... Well ability to get hit by them.

Adumbration
2008-10-03, 03:49 AM
The dragonarmor is in Draconomicon - it's sort of half-way from the first page of magic items to the second. The only bad side with it is that it is an actual barding - half-plate I think - so it has spell failure chance.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-03, 04:32 AM
Just a thought for a feat - Wingover, for added maneuverability?

RebelRogue
2008-10-03, 05:18 AM
One vital spell to make sure the dragon knows. Scintillating Scales.
From Spell Compendium. Second level arcane that converts the Natural Armour to Deflection.
Fixes that weakness to touch attacks... Well ability to get hit by them.
I was so gonna suggest this! There's no point in taking Quicken Spell since dragons cast as sorcerers (and they have no familiar to ditch for cheesy variants). Well, you could use it with the Arcane Preparation Feat, but if I were you, I'd rather get some of those nifty swift action spells, also from the Spell Compendium. Wraithstrike (mixed with Power Attack) for melee would be one. Breath Weapon Substitution/Admixture is another one that can be a nasty surprise. I'm sure there's more.

Kaiyanwang
2008-10-03, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by SadisticFishing

Also, add in certain spells that give Pounce, or Wraithstrike, and you have a melee monster.


Dire charge from Draconomicon, too, if you want to keep spell for other things.

About others Epic feats, consider Spell Storeaway(heal) or Spell Storeaway(time stop)

About quicken spell, Rapid metamagic from Complee Mage is for you. Allow to apply metamagic to spontaneus casters avoiding the longer casting time.

In my Experience, Draconomicon spell able to modify the Breath weapon are NASTY.

Talic
2008-10-03, 05:40 AM
I was so gonna suggest this! There's no point in taking Quicken Spell since dragons cast as sorcerers (and they have no familiar to ditch for cheesy variants). Well, you could use it with the Arcane Preparation Feat, but if I were you, I'd rather get some of those nifty swift action spells, also from the Spell Compendium. Wraithstrike (mixed with Power Attack) for melee would be one. Breath Weapon Substitution/Admixture is another one that can be a nasty surprise. I'm sure there's more.

Quicken spell is a prerequisite for Automatic Quicken, which is one of the Epic feats he wishes to use, and is QUITE useful for Sorcerors, as it quickens without increasing spell level or cast time. In addition, the Rapid Metamagic feat can allow sorcerors to use Quicken spell as normal.

Both pale compared to Arcane Spellsurge, however.

RebelRogue
2008-10-03, 05:49 AM
About quicken spell, Rapid metamagic from Complee Mage is for you. Allow to apply metamagic to spontaneus casters avoiding the longer casting time.
Don't you have to ditch your familiar for it? Or is that a PHB2 option, I'm thinking of? Any way, it sounds cheesy!

Kaiyanwang
2008-10-03, 06:10 AM
PHII alt class feature is similar, but is another thing. This is a C Mage feat.

Spellcraft 12, cast spell spontaneously. I think it makes the Sorcerer more funny, but as DM I allowed it in a campaign of high power (the sorcere took it when epic).

You can consider to allow it as a monster only (or dragon only) feat :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2008-10-03, 07:42 AM
Personally, I find if you're optimizing a dragon for high level, the following tacks can be used:

1) Readjust stats. Stats listed are for typical members of the race. That said, dumping Strength a bit to pump Dex is useful. Follow up with dex boost book, and perfect multiweapon fighting. Follow up with 1 handed weapons in the claws, a mouthpick weapon, prehensile tail (serpent kingdoms) with a weapon in the tail. If you can locate a weapon that is not natural to replace wing buffet, awesome. Each weapon is 4 attacks, BAB progression and all that. Even without wing buffet weapons, it's up to 16 attacks a round. Follow up with Permanent emanation (Antimagic Field), a Str boost book, and you've got some serious melee output... Especially with Wraithstrike as one of the spells it has, and Power Attack. (it can free action lower the AMF for its attack and reraise it)

2) Smaller is better. Go with an Ancient, and throw in enough cleric levels to choke a donkey (up to its HD is 2 levels for 1 CR). Once you hit 21, take epic spellcasting. Eat party.

I'd rather not use class levels. I know the CR system is busted and I hate abusing busted things (which is why I'm using a somewhat fixed version of Epic Spellcasting which the party has access to too) - I'm focusing on optimizing the Great Wyrm. I mean, making it a Wyrmling and maxing out Cleric-levels would be the most effective, but I'm really going for the most effective Great Wyrm, not the most effective Cleric.

As for Power Attack, we're probably talking about a bunch of casters up against the Dragon so going for melee seems like the whole "bringing a stick to a nuclear war"-idea; it's a good option to have since the world has Dead Magic Zones and such, but when magic works, there's little reason not to focus solely on it. As for readjusting stats, I'm hoping, with Epic Magic that can be avoided. I really want to show the party what a stock dragon can pack.


EDIT: In response to OP and Automatic Quicken x3, I'd suggest x2. Without a way to lengthen your casting time, you can't change those quickened spells to standard actions, which means, by RAW, you'd be losing your standard action every round (unless you're gishing it up). Alternately, a single Arcane Spellsurge spell does everything you're looking for with the quickening. Follow it up with metamagic feats to extend the cast time of 1 spell per round, and you're good.

OMFG, I knew I forgot something important! Ok so, all Automatic Quickens fly out of the window, I'll pick up few Improved Spell Capacitys, one more Multispell or so and just Persist Arcane Spellsurge. My games allow converting Standard Action to Swift Action so that part won't be a problem.



Other fellows:
-Thanks, but the OP already lists all the basic defenses such as Scintillating Scales (that's why the Dragon has Persist), Wings of Cover, Greater Mirror Image, Greater Mage Armor, Contingency, Heal, etc. I'm not entirely new to this whole thing - I know how casters keep themselves alive (although of course, since we're talking about a politically influential figure, Superior Invisibility and the like constantly are out of the question; misdirection will be used with care)
-I don't need Rapid Metamagic. Quicken Spell is a prerequisite for many epic feats, most importantly Multispell and Automatic Quicken (which is now obsolete). Also, Rapid Metamagic is a perfectly fair spell - don't screw your Sorcerers by leaving Quickening only to the Wizards! Anyways, since Mr. Talic reminded me of the existence of Arcane Spellsurge, all those problems just disappeared.


Biffoniacus_Furiou: Thanks, since it's first and foremost a political campaign, the Dragon is indeed going to be played as a puppet master, especially in the beginning. I figure Greater Planar Binding and Gate (I've errata'd the spell to not force the summoned creature to compel you - however, a Great Wyrm should have no trouble making Balors et al submissive) would allow it to generate appropriate squads to try and take out the PCs with as little noise as possible early on, along with the usual court tactics of spreading rumours, using the public opinion (and any possible figures of power) against them on every opportunity with liberal use of poison and sabotage.

It may learn some illusions and use them, but appearing as a simple member of the court is going to be its first line of defense - blending in makes it much, much harder to locate. And yea, as I already mentioned earlier, I'm learning Heal (and Miracle) and few other choice Cleric spells. Anyways, the puppet master part I've got down - I'm fully expecting for the party to overcome that and the part I'm really preparing is the final climatic battle where the dragon reveals its true colours and engages the PCs head on maybe with a small abyssal army to pack it up or so (I have no doubts the PCs will summon outside help once things come down to it as well).

Kurald Galain
2008-10-03, 08:25 AM
You know, this might be just me, but a dragon that spends his combat time hiding and casting high-level wizard and cleric spells doesn't really... feel... like a dragon to me. It would be more atmospheric if it were a huge firebreathing monstrosity employing a few buff spells but otherwise resorting to claw/claw/bite/wing buffet/snatch/fling/swallow whole routines.

Eldariel
2008-10-03, 08:45 AM
It'll be breathing and it'll be attacking when given the chance. The question is, how often will such a chance be given? We're talking about an epic level party here - it will take more than just physical prowess to defeat them. But really, my image of Dragons is mighty, breathing magical beasts with the magic being the primary quality - they're magic incarnates for gawd's sake! I mean, they're the reason the whole Sorcerer-class, the most innate casting class in the game, even exists!

Sure, they're physically tough but they're so much more than that, and the part beyond physical toughness is what makes them the monsters of the Legends. They're the epitomes of perfection - all their fronts are powerful. They're powerful magicians, they're powerful warriors, they're incredibly intelligent, they're fast as hell, they can take punishment with the best of them, they're simply perfect, which is why they make such awesome encounters.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-10-03, 11:14 AM
First of all, a Ward vs Time Stop does nothing - because Time Stop does not affect the dragon, only the caster.
Advice: As other people said, Spell Stowaway: Time Stop. Whenever sb else uses Timestop near you, you automatically get the same timestop benefits. Ditch the Permanent Emanation: Repulsion for it; it's too costly amd you can always cast a repulsion under a (stolen) timestop.

Secondly, Spell Resistance. You have 39 HD. Taking Awaken Spell Resistance once (feat from Draconomicon), gives you SR 39. Taking it a few times more makes sure you're practically immune to spells that allow SR.


Third, Hover, Power Attack, Extent and Persistent Spell aren't very helpful. Hover can be replaced with items that give you maneurability. Power Attack you won't need it. Persistent Spell has too great a cost without metamagic modifiers.
Advice: Change these feats with the SR feats above plus Energy Substitution: 'whatever the party does not have immunity to'.




Epic Spells:

a) A ward up to 4th level spells (includes orbs, enervation, shivering touch, ray of stupidity and ray of clumsiness). After that, you'll only need watch out for Energy Drain so cast Deathward or use an Armor of Soulfire to make yourself immune. Projected DC 74, 54 if you take 10 minutes casting time. No mitigation required to cast.

b) A ward vs Antimagic Field, Disjunction, Chain Dispel, Truename Dispel. Projected DC 74, 54 if you take 10 minutes casting time. No mitigation required to cast.

c) Fortification of your stats. +12 enhancement bonus to any one ability score, saving throw, natural armor or spell resistance. +30 DC Ad Hoc so you can choose to which stat the increase goes (so you don't have to research a dozen spells). Projected DC 75 for a 4-day duration, 55 if you take 10 minutes casting time. No mitigation required to cast.
I advice you do not go beyond a +12 bonus for stats. That's the same bonus an epic magic item could give so such bonuses are already acceptable.

d) Epic Dispel. Make Area Dispel (+12 DC), +25 dispel check (+25 DC), standard action (+20 DC). Projected DC 76. The dragon can cast up to DC 76 spells without mitigation, assuming an intelligence of 38, a +12 enhancement to intelligence buff/item, 42 ranks in both spellcraft and knowledge; arcana.

General Epic Spell Advice:
Increase all buff DCs to 76, giving the additional spellcraft DC to duration increase.
In addition, you may want to add the feat Tenacious Magic: Multibuff (your multi-purpose buff spell). This means that your most important buff can never be dispelled.



EDIT:

Tactics:

Just fly close to the party and allow them to blast you with a salvo of spells. Your SR will just eat them up (39 base, +6 from 3 awaken SR feats, +12 epic spell). Let them spent resources on you.

If a party member uses Celerity then Time Stop, you immediately benefit from his Time Stop but not his Celerity so you get the bonus actions but not the daze drawback. Immediately move from your location; under his own time stop, said party member will be piling up spells for a trap in your old position. That trap will be wasted by you moving. Just Dimension Lock and Forcecage the members of the party that aren't under a timestop.

In your turn you have several options, AFTER the wizard is dazed.

a) Standard Action Disjunction or Epic Dispel on the clericzilla. Then, 3 quickened meteor swarms and a breath. He dies.

b) Swift Action Time Stop then Miracle (yep, you got cleric spells). Make it rain with the Miracle. Yes, just a standard rain - which incidentally uncovers invisible creatures because raindrops will not be falling in their locations. Move next to the previously Superior Invisible (heh) wizard and enter his square (or rather, move so he enters your square) Quickened Otiluke's Resilient sphere on yourself, quickened Antimagic Field. You're immune to your AMF, the Wizard is not. You're both trapped in your Resilient Sphere which, since it is cast on you and not on the wizard, is also unaffected by the AMF.
Let the timestop end. Take a full attack and 2 quickened orb spells against the AMFed wizard. Wizard dies.

Cuddly
2008-10-03, 01:50 PM
Having permanent repulsion means that pretty much nothing can approach him in melee if he doesn't want to, as a free action. That's just too valuable to pass up.

Eldariel
2008-10-03, 03:13 PM
First of all, a Ward vs Time Stop does nothing - because Time Stop does not affect the dragon, only the caster.
Advice: As other people said, Spell Stowaway: Time Stop. Whenever sb else uses Timestop near you, you automatically get the same timestop benefits. Ditch the Permanent Emanation: Repulsion for it; it's too costly amd you can always cast a repulsion under a (stolen) timestop.

I didn't want to burn a feat on it. Actually, I think the Ward can be made:
"A Ward against magic creates an immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere (with radius 10 feet) that surrounds you and excludes all spell effects up to 1st level."

and

"Instead of creating an epic spell that uses the ward seed to nullify all spells of a given level and lower, you can create a ward that nullifies a specific spell (or a specific set of spells)."

It doesn't state the spell to be nullified needs to affect me in any way - if I use another seed for a larger area and add Ward-seed, making a Ward against Time Stop should be easy pies (of course, it only prevents using Time Stop in the warded area and entering the warded area while in Time Stop - hopefully that'll be enough).


Permanent Emanation is awesome 'cause it's a free action to deactivate and reactivate. It means that I can just restart it until everyone that isn't totally immune fails their save, making the Dragon effectively immune to melee.



Secondly, Spell Resistance. You have 39 HD. Taking Awaken Spell Resistance once (feat from Draconomicon), gives you SR 39. Taking it a few times more makes sure you're practically immune to spells that allow SR.

I was thinking of allowing Assay Resistance as per normal, which makes high SR pretty much wasted. That said, if I do end up banning that spell I'll come back to this.


Third, Hover, Power Attack, Extent and Persistent Spell aren't very helpful. Hover can be replaced with items that give you maneurability. Power Attack you won't need it. Persistent Spell has too great a cost without metamagic modifiers.
Advice: Change these feats with the SR feats above plus Energy Substitution: 'whatever the party does not have immunity to'.

There's magic to switch energy types, so I don't think Energy Substitution is really necessary. Extend Spell and Persistent Spell do feel helpful due to the Dragon's inherent spell resistance - I need to bring it down to be affected by some spells and I'd rather not take it down in combat (forces them to spend actions on Assay Resistance), but it would need to be taken down to be affected by many buffs. Also, with the combination of Extend Spell and Persistent Spell, it's easy to cast a few spells Persisted Spells each day Extending them, keeping them around for 48 hours, allowing for two rows of buffs. Really just, having Persistent Spell allows it to walk around incredibly much more buffed than it could normally. Now that I'm picking up Improved Spell Capacity and buffing up Cha, it'll have a few 11th level slots, meaning it can rawdog Persist 5th level spells.

Power Attack I added since I figure it might end up in a Dead Magic Zone - being able to fight there is all in all. Same with Hover, although I do think I should replace it.


Epic Spells:

a) A ward up to 4th level spells (includes orbs, enervation, shivering touch, ray of stupidity and ray of clumsiness). After that, you'll only need watch out for Energy Drain so cast Deathward or use an Armor of Soulfire to make yourself immune. Projected DC 74, 54 if you take 10 minutes casting time. No mitigation required to cast.

Couldn't I juts cast Globe of Invulnerability for the same effect? Using an Epic spell on this feels like a waste.


b) A ward vs Antimagic Field, Disjunction, Chain Dispel, Truename Dispel. Projected DC 74, 54 if you take 10 minutes casting time. No mitigation required to cast.

Hmm, but this would also stop the Dragon form using those spells. I think I'd rather use a few Rings of Greater Counterspells - AMF shouldn't be a problem as the Dragon is too large to be fit into even a Widened one.


c) Fortification of your stats. +12 enhancement bonus to any one ability score, saving throw, natural armor or spell resistance. +30 DC Ad Hoc so you can choose to which stat the increase goes (so you don't have to research a dozen spells). Projected DC 75 for a 4-day duration, 55 if you take 10 minutes casting time. No mitigation required to cast.
I advice you do not go beyond a +12 bonus for stats. That's the same bonus an epic magic item could give so such bonuses are already acceptable.

Hmm, I suppose 50s in each stat would be sufficient. I was thinking of going for a touch AC in the 90s with attack rolls in the +80-+90 range in case it does need to fight.


d) Epic Dispel. Make Area Dispel (+12 DC), +25 dispel check (+25 DC), standard action (+20 DC). Projected DC 76. The dragon can cast up to DC 76 spells without mitigation, assuming an intelligence of 38, a +12 enhancement to intelligence buff/item, 42 ranks in both spellcraft and knowledge; arcana.

General Epic Spell Advice:
Increase all buff DCs to 76, giving the additional spellcraft DC to duration increase.
In addition, you may want to add the feat Tenacious Magic: Multibuff (your multi-purpose buff spell). This means that your most important buff can never be dispelled.

Hmm, yea, seems solid. Only problem is, I was thinking of keying Epic Spellcasting off CL instead of Spellcraft (OP: "I'll probably limit Epic Spellcasting to half the spell's DC in mitigating factors and make it CL-based"), and I don't think the Dragon is gonna be much over 30 in that, even with item boosts (native 23 - even reaching 30 without class levels is gonna be tough, although Beads of Prayer helps), which will limit the spell effects to around DC 80 with 40 points of mitigation (with access to Heal, I'll probably use Backlash Damage for spells intent on actually casting).


EDIT:

Tactics:

Just fly close to the party and allow them to blast you with a salvo of spells. Your SR will just eat them up (39 base, +6 from 3 awaken SR feats, +12 epic spell). Let them spent resources on you.

If a party member uses Celerity then Time Stop, you immediately benefit from his Time Stop but not his Celerity so you get the bonus actions but not the daze drawback. Immediately move from your location; under his own time stop, said party member will be piling up spells for a trap in your old position. That trap will be wasted by you moving. Just Dimension Lock and Forcecage the members of the party that aren't under a timestop.

I'm not allowing Celerity in this game (in fact, most "basic dumb stuff" like Shapechange, Gate, Polymorph, Celerity et co. are either nerfed or banned). Spell Stowaway on Time Stop doesn't prevent them from casting Time Stop further away, moving in and going for the kill - that's why I'd prefer an Epic Ward; it prevents entering near the Dragon during Time Stop even if they do cast it away.


In your turn you have several options, AFTER the wizard is dazed.

a) Standard Action Disjunction or Epic Dispel on the clericzilla. Then, 3 quickened meteor swarms and a breath. He dies.

b) Swift Action Time Stop then Miracle (yep, you got cleric spells). Make it rain with the Miracle. Yes, just a standard rain - which incidentally uncovers invisible creatures because raindrops will not be falling in their locations. Move next to the previously Superior Invisible (heh) wizard and enter his square (or rather, move so he enters your square) Quickened Otiluke's Resilient sphere on yourself, quickened Antimagic Field. You're immune to your AMF, the Wizard is not. You're both trapped in your Resilient Sphere which, since it is cast on you and not on the wizard, is also unaffected by the AMF.
Let the timestop end. Take a full attack and 2 quickened orb spells against the AMFed wizard. Wizard dies.

I'm expecting to face around 4 spellcasters. I mean, they know they're playing Epic, surely they can't be dumb enough not to take Epic Spellcasting and pick up the best spell lists possible. I was also thinking of using stuff like Avasculate, Maw of Chaos et co. in addition to the Breath for damage - no save damage in general, even if they are SR yes.

I still intend on the Epic Ward against Time Stop, it's not gonna be using the spell itself either (really though, 4 PCs each using Time Stop would pretty much just trivialize the entire fight). That said, since it's able to drop 4 spells and a Full-Round Action each round, I believe it'll have enough actions to fight vs. 4 without it (even with Battlemagic Perception and all that around).


Thanks for the help. I think I'm quite a lot closer to a workable version now.

SadisticFishing
2008-10-03, 04:38 PM
You know, this might be just me, but a dragon that spends his combat time hiding and casting high-level wizard and cleric spells doesn't really... feel... like a dragon to me. It would be more atmospheric if it were a huge firebreathing monstrosity employing a few buff spells but otherwise resorting to claw/claw/bite/wing buffet/snatch/fling/swallow whole routines.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. If you want them fighting a dragon, and not a cleric, make it a dragon, not a sorcerer!

Spells for Dispelling/Stunning/etc Breath, buffs, and melee madness - a dragon can kill someone in one round, no problem, if he actually attacks, so an Emanated Antimagic Field is how I would do this, for sure. Charge, kill, laugh as the casters try to kill it.

Eldariel
2008-10-03, 05:00 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with this. If you want them fighting a dragon, and not a cleric, make it a dragon, not a sorcerer!

Spells for Dispelling/Stunning/etc Breath, buffs, and melee madness - a dragon can kill someone in one round, no problem, if he actually attacks, so an Emanated Antimagic Field is how I would do this, for sure. Charge, kill, laugh as the casters try to kill it.

I hate to quote myself, but...

It'll be breathing and it'll be attacking when given the chance. The question is, how often will such a chance be given? We're talking about an epic level party here - it will take more than just physical prowess to defeat them. But really, my image of Dragons is mighty, breathing magical beasts with the magic being the primary quality - they're magic incarnates for gawd's sake! I mean, they're the reason the whole Sorcerer-class, the most innate casting class in the game, even exists!

Sure, they're physically tough but they're so much more than that, and the part beyond physical toughness is what makes them the monsters of the Legends. They're the epitomes of perfection - all their fronts are powerful. They're powerful magicians, they're powerful warriors, they're incredibly intelligent, they're fast as hell, they can take punishment with the best of them, they're simply perfect, which is why they make such awesome encounters.

Seriously, what's this "dragons should melee"-stuff? I always thought the Breath Weapon and Frightful Presence were the two most iconic features, followed by spellcasting and the physical power as the dead last.

SadisticFishing
2008-10-03, 05:07 PM
They are melee monsters with six natural attacks, and full BAB, and many, many hit dice... with casting far worse than a sorcerer of the same CR.

They are not magic incarnate, they just are inherently magical. Huge difference - a sorcerer is actually more magic incarnate than a dragon, by a lot, because they're not anything else.

A dragon's most iconic thing is its breaht weapon, but then after that, it's the fact that it eats things (people on horses is a good example). Frightful Presence is just cool.

Eldariel
2008-10-03, 05:13 PM
Sorcerers' casting comes from dragon bloodline according to just about every book - I find it hard to believe they'd somehow be more magical than Dragons... And I believe the only reason their casting is "so bad" is because they need huge HD just to have the stats they should have and if they got HD-based casting, they'd be casting Epic spells at CR9. I think the only reason their casting appears secondary is because how the HD rules of D&D work. At least my image of Dragons is always an immensely powerful magical beast.

Cuddly
2008-10-03, 05:18 PM
If you want to play your dragon like a retard, take the advice of sadisticfishing & kurald galain. That should provide a suitable cakewalk to end the campaign with.

Eldariel
2008-10-03, 06:09 PM
If you want to play your dragon like a retard, take the advice of sadisticfishing & kurald galain. That should provide a suitable cakewalk to end the campaign with.

This seems wholly unnecessary. I mean, I know I can't present it as a credible melee threat - does it really need to be said? This seems like it could be offensive and since this is such a nice, friendly environment, such seems out of place...

Chronos
2008-10-03, 08:37 PM
Why can't it be a melee threat? Give it Permanent Emanation (Antimagic Field), and spellcasting from the party suddenly becomes a lot less relevant: Even epic magic probably won't get through. Even with the antimagic, it's well capable of wreaking havoc with its claws and bite, and it can use its magic to further buff its melee abilities (turning off the emanation just long enough for its turn). By focusing on its spellcasting, you're actually playing to its weakest point, not its strength.


Sorcerers' casting comes from dragon bloodline according to just about every book - I find it hard to believe they'd somehow be more magical than DragonsI find it very easy to believe. A 20th-level sorcerer casts as a 20th-level sorcerer. A 20 HD dragon casts as a 7th level sorcerer, and a CR 20 dragon casts as a 13th level sorcerer. What's so hard to believe about 20 being greater than 7 or 13?

monty
2008-10-03, 08:39 PM
Why can't it be a melee threat? Give it Permanent Emanation (Antimagic Field), and spellcasting from the party suddenly becomes a lot less relevant: Even epic magic probably won't get through. Even with the antimagic, it's well capable of wreaking havoc with its claws and bite, and it can use its magic to further buff its melee abilities (turning off the emanation just long enough for its turn). By focusing on its spellcasting, you're actually playing to its weakest point, not its strength.

Isn't antimagic field...less big than the dragon? Wouldn't that be totally useless?

Eldariel
2008-10-03, 09:27 PM
I find it very easy to believe. A 20th-level sorcerer casts as a 20th-level sorcerer. A 20 HD dragon casts as a 7th level sorcerer, and a CR 20 dragon casts as a 13th level sorcerer. What's so hard to believe about 20 being greater than 7 or 13?

Eh, point being, Sorcerers are "dragonblood" and derive their powers from that. In the absence of actual numbers, it seems pretty trivial to decide that if X descendants possess some amount of some power, the ones they descend from are more powerful in that regard. Of course this doesn't translate to 3.5 mechanics due to the requirements of the CR system, the HD system, the class level system and so on, but seeing that the reason a Sorcerer has power is because he's dragon descendant makes the comparison on a flavour-level trivial. Of course, none of this has any bearing whatsoever to the actual gameplay.

The primary problem with AMF is that Epic Magic ignores it (or rather, AMF acts as a level 20 Greater Dispel Magic, but at CL30, the check cannot succeed anymore (DC being 41)), and the party is going to have access to Epic Spells. Also, it requires getting next to the party (and I find it hard to believe they'd create such a convenient target without at least Contingencies in place). And it leaves the Dragon without any protection from just getting Orbed to death. Multispell is one of the very few ways to easily gain extra actions on epic and not using it seems like a folly when dealing with a party. Really, I'm trying to challenge epic casters here. I just can't think of means to do it without magic focus. Besides, the Dragon has way more Epic feats than the party so it should have the advantage in that regard. My present vision is that it'll open up with a bunch of spells, Breath and melee should anyone squishy enough be in the immediate vicinity of the Dragon, relying on Contingencies (I'll probably have to have it research some contingent epic spells so that it won't run out after the first few rounds).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-03, 09:51 PM
AMF is a 10' radius, or 20' diameter; this dragon is Gargantuan size, for a 20' space. Permanent Emanation: Widened Antimagic Field to make it 10' bigger on each side. This would actually make for a very interesting encounter if it has an epic spell to Ward vs AMF.

I'd still say Reactive Counterspell is an absolute must-have. Note that with its prerequisite Improved Counterspell and Heighten Spell, it need only a 0-level spell of each school and an available spell slot of the appropriate level to counterspell anything as an immediate action 1/round. I would still give it Automatic Quicken x3 and get rid of Quicken Breath, or possibly replace it with Heighten or Recover Breath. Any round that it doesn't full-attack it can breathe, assuming you use an AMF build. Give it the spell Animate Breath (SC) and the PCs won't be concentrating on the dragon every round. Note that the creature created by Animate Breath is created as the result of a supernatural breath attack, so it cannot be dispelled or dismissed/banished.

I would make it begin combat with a Crush attack, its permanent AMF will suppress any size-altering buffs the PCs have. Anyone who is naturally large size or bigger won't be subject to the crush attack, but that probably won't matter. It can then use its breath attack against pinned opponents, who will be inside the AMF so only extraordinary resistances/immunities will be effective. It can use the spell Heroics to get feats like Power Attack and Combat Reflexes, so don't waste any of its feats on those.

If you want to be really mean, give it the feat Quick Recovery (LoM) along with Greater Celerity. It can use the free standard action to use its breath attack, and use the move action to remove the Dazed condition (Will save DC 26, it gets +29). That way it can breathe every 1d4-1 rounds as an immediate action with Recover Breath. You could also give it the spell Blinding Breath, which is particularly nasty.

Regarding Spell Stowaway: Time Stop, that would be a perfect opportunity to cast Iceberg on the party, possibly multiple times to guarantee that they're all buried.

Eldariel
2008-10-03, 10:12 PM
I'm fairly sure you can't use metamagic with Permanent Emanation. It just tells you to pick one of your spells and makes that spell's effect permanent - it doesn't say anything about using spellslots or metamagic or modified spells or anything else.

Also, I'm not using the Celerity-line; it would be an immense advantage for the PCs (4 characters all taking action immediately? That's a Dragon Kill right there). As for Reactive Counterspell, it causes the user to lose its next turn (that's not something you can avoid). That, again, is pretty much Dragon Kill right there.

As for Spell Stowaway, I just can't see it being necessary if using an Epic Ward. Also, the epic feats are pretty darn powerful - it takes a lot to topple Multispell, Epic Spellcasting or even Improved Spell Capacity.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-10-04, 01:44 AM
Hey, how about Epic Counterspell? It's like Reactive Counterspell only you don't need to spend an action and you can do it any number of times per turn. :smallsmile:

For your Spell Resistance, 39 base + 6 feats + 12 Epic Spell means SR 57. Since the dragon is CR 25, the PCs should be level 25-26 when they face it. SR checks will then be 25 base + 10 assay resistance + 3 CL bonus. This means that WITH assay resistance they need a natural 20 to beat your SR, barring Penetration Feats. However, Assay Resistance won't work; remember that Ward vs 4th level spells? :smallcool:

For your Ward vs Time Stop, the main problem is that it stops you from using Time Stop as well. The Spell Stowaway feat might be more costly but it allows you to still use Time Stop yourself. Imagine all 4 PCs cast Time Stop. Then you get 4 Time Stops for free. In the end, you get more out of it. But your choice, I guess.

For the Ward vs low-level spells; the Globe of Invulnerability won't work. It is immobile and too small to cover a dragon.


IF you decide not to ban Celerity, here's something cool: Spell Stowaway; Celerity. Spell Stowaway means that you benefit from Celerity as if it had been used on you by the same caster. So you get the benefit of Celerity - but the original caster not only gains his daze but your own daze because the caster of Celerity gets the daze. So, 4 PCs using Celerity? They give you 4 extra actions without Daze.

Eldariel
2008-10-04, 02:25 AM
Yea, I just need Spell Stowaway for both, Greater Celerity and Celerity. And I'd rather have the fight fought without Time Stop - that spell is dumb and uninteractive, so I feel it'll be much more interesting without using it at all in the first place.

Where's Epic Counterspell from? I don't know the feat in question. It sounds exactly like something I could give the Dragon (presently it's using Battlemagic Perception for immediate counters).


As for the SR, it's really heavy on resources, Awaken Spell Resistance is a feat and there're only 14 of them total. The higher level ones are pretty much reserved for epic goodness and Quicken Spell, Extend Spell>Persistent Spell, Practiced Spellcaster and Power Attack are pretty much musts. Also, I really like Quicken Breath since it allows actually...y'know, using the Breath Weapon (and extra actions are really the key to making things work out). That leaves one relatively open feat. Of course, SR 39 >>>> SR 31. And it could be buffed further with an epic spell. It does seem like a very decent idea. +8 SR is about worth one feat.


EDIT: Found Epic Counterspell. The feat means business, but it would cost me too many feat slots (4 relatively weak feats - Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Improved Counterspell and Reactive Counterspell) and frankly, Dragons aren't spoiled with extra feats, so I don't think I can manage it.

SadisticFishing
2008-10-04, 03:43 AM
Hrm, it just seems odd to me that a level 20 sorcerer can cast spells FAR better than an *epic* dragon, if the dragon is the more magic one.

It really depends on the level of epic play, I think, as earlier epic, a melee monster is very, very scary. Killing people in one round, no save, while having tons of life, good saves, and a permanent antimagic field? Works for me.

But my experience with epic games is rather limited, and my players were not intelligent (sorry! but they TPK'd to my first encounter [Thri-Kreen Swordsage/Warblade/Bloodclaw Master with lots of potions]), so my advice could be completely off.

I just keep picturing Smaug wearing a wizard hat (you know, the blue pointed one with stars and moons on it), and it looks ridiculous to me. He should be eating people, not speaking his everyday language at them! (Draconic)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-04, 04:45 AM
Looking at Spell Stowaway, it actually may not work with Antimagic Field up, since it blocks line of effect with regard to spells and anything else that can't penetrate it. With a Ward vs AMF, the dragon will probably be able to ignore this, but the PCs wouldn't be able to benefit from Spell Stowaway whenever it casts spells. On the other hand, AMF would technically block LoE for the PCs' spells, preventing the dragon from stowing away, but it wouldn't block LoE for the dragon's spells, so the PCs could stow away. You could consider the dragon's spell stowaway feat its own effect and unhindered by the AMF, whereas a PC's spell stowaway feat is their own effect which would be blocked, which is favorable considering that you receive the spell as though it were cast on you by the original caster, though it would be via the effect of your own feat and therefore your own effect for whether or not it's subject to AMF. Finally, all feats are extraordinary unless stated otherwise, and AMF doesn't block LoE with regard to feats, so Spell Stowaway could be completely unaffected by AMF. If the dragon were to receive a spell via spell stowaway as though it were cast by one of the PCs, the AMF would block LoE so the dragon wouldn't benefit from the feat, which would be a fair ruling, though I'd just rule that spell stowaway would either work for everyone or work for no one.

Remember that even if the AMF can't cover its entire space, it can freely designate the spell's point of origin anywhere within its space, which can change at least every round if not more often. Looking at the prerequisites, "Spellcraft 25 ranks, ability to cast the spell to be made permanent." If it is capable of casting a Widened Antimagic Field, it can have a Permanent Emanation of one. Also keep in mind that any spells which could bypass the AMF would also ignore its SR, so boosting that is rather worthless.

Here's what I'd do for feats:
Improved Flight (RotW)
Quicken Spell
Practiced Spellcaster
Widen Spell
Recover Breath
Recover Breath
Craft Contingent Spell (CA)

Epic Spellcasting
Multispell
Multispell
Automatic Quicken
Automatic Quicken
Automatic Quicken (automatically quickens 9th level spells)
Permanent Emanation: Widened Antimagic Field

Epic Spell Effects:
Ward vs AMF
Ward vs Spell Stowaway?
Ward vs 4th level and lower spells
Battlemagic Perception which recharges every round (being a 3rd level spell, it shouldn't be a higher DC than any of the above)

Buffs (not a complete list):
(Rod of) Extended Energy Immunity 2/day for a 48 hr duration, making him immune to every type of energy damage.
Superior Resistance
Mind Blank
Moment of Prescience (for initiative)
Nerveskitter (in spells known)

Contingent Spell: Extended Animate Breath when he wants to make an animated breath, and a Contingent Spell: Time Stop for whenever that happens. Therefore, he gets 1d4+1 rounds, on the first he can make an animated breath rolling a 1d4-2 (1-3 he can use it the next round) for how long he must wait before breathing again. If he happens to roll a 4 on his breath he can summon a monster or an iceberg. Every single round of the time stop he should also cast Silence on a point in space adjacent to one of the PCs, hopefully prior to casting Iceberg.

I doubt the PCs will tolerate an outright banning of Time Stop, though a spellcaster who is both silenced and buried in snow could activate magic items (making a str check to reach such items?), but otherwise must simply wait to be killed at the dragon's leisure. On the last round of Time Stop it should also cast Superior Invisibility, since any magical means of detection cannot penetrate its AMF. Another good spell to cast during this time is Heroics, for feats like Power Attack and Combat Reflexes. Extended Wraithstrike is also good to use at the start of its first round of actions in normal time.

Note that its animated breaths will be its own effects and subject to its Ward vs AMF, including any AMFs cast by the PCs. Give it a lot of metamagic rods, such as a standard Rod of Maximize, which it can use to Maximized Disintegrate x3 in a single round, probably targeting a particular item rather than a character (spell component pouch or holy symbol work best). Ray of Light is also a good spell to maximize, and Ray of Dizziness is good to use against full-attackers. Maze is another good choice, especially if it already has an idea of each character's (mental) capabilities.

A few more decent spells for it to have up are Ironguard (greater if they can somehow bypass the AMF) and Indomitability. A Contingent Spell of Indomitability to be triggered whenever the spell would need to be spent, with a Contingent Spell of Heal (multiple depending on its HP) for whenever that goes off to put it back to near-full health, will prevent a glass cannon charger build or hulking hurler from one-shotting it.

I can't stress enough that it should try to split up the opponents and defeat them one at a time. Iceberg, Maze, anything that can no-save disable someone even temporarily is what it should focus on from the start. Moment of Prescience with Nerveskitter will almost guarantee that it will win initiative, unless a PC has thought to do the same. Remember that if the PCs were up against a greater force, they would try to even the odds as quickly as possible, and that is exactly what this fight should be all about. Simulacrums which Dimension Door in when called on would also be good, especially if they appear during the same round in which it uses Time Stop and moves, as they wouldn't know which is the real one once they get out from under the iceberg.

Kaiyanwang
2008-10-06, 02:35 AM
It's true that Dragons will have a CL always below the party that will challenge them, unless they have a CR alot above the party ECL.

Anyway, Dragons are mighty creatures, great spellcaters, great manipulators, ancient, wise, knowledgeable creatures. Dragons of the same race (at least, in 3.5) are also different one frome another: one more bloodthirsty, one more oriented toward spellcasting. One use spell casting to gain knowledge, one to pimp his breath.

Dragons are all of this, because are DRAGONS.

Cuddly
2008-10-06, 02:44 AM
Hrm, it just seems odd to me that a level 20 sorcerer can cast spells FAR better than an *epic* dragon, if the dragon is the more magic one.

It really depends on the level of epic play, I think, as earlier epic, a melee monster is very, very scary. Killing people in one round, no save, while having tons of life, good saves, and a permanent antimagic field? Works for me.

But my experience with epic games is rather limited, and my players were not intelligent (sorry! but they TPK'd to my first encounter [Thri-Kreen Swordsage/Warblade/Bloodclaw Master with lots of potions]), so my advice could be completely off.

I just keep picturing Smaug wearing a wizard hat (you know, the blue pointed one with stars and moons on it), and it looks ridiculous to me. He should be eating people, not speaking his everyday language at them! (Draconic)

AMF isn't really anti-magic. It's only anti-spells that are SR: yes.

So a proper number of orbs of acid or what have you fired off will quickly take one down. There's a build floating around that pretty much does 900 damage, no save, no SR.

[edit]
Isn't drinking a potion a std action? Or do you mean potions of buff?

SadisticFishing
2008-10-06, 03:37 AM
Yeah he'd buffed before the fight. And I hadn't even heard of Arms of Plenty yet, so he only had 6 arms...

It doesn't say that about AMF anywhere. It just suppresses all "spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines."

monty
2008-10-06, 10:20 AM
Yeah he'd buffed before the fight. And I hadn't even heard of Arms of Plenty yet, so he only had 6 arms...

It doesn't say that about AMF anywhere. It just suppresses all "spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines."

Orb spells are different, though. You aren't actually shooting magic at him, like magic missile or fireball. You're basically conjuring a nonmagical orb of whatever and then tossing it in his face.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-06, 10:32 AM
Orb spells are different, though. You aren't actually shooting magic at him, like magic missile or fireball. You're basically conjuring a nonmagical orb of whatever and then tossing it in his face.

Yeah, that's the fluff to it, but it really doesn't make all that much sense for several of the orb spells :smallbiggrin:

monty
2008-10-06, 10:41 AM
Yeah, that's the fluff to it, but it really doesn't make all that much sense for several of the orb spells :smallbiggrin:

Orb of Acid = orb of acid (go figure).
Orb of Cold = ball of packed snow, or something like that.
Orb of Electricity = force lightning, in the shape of an orb.
Orb of Fire = orb of fire.
Orb of Sound = pulse of high-pitched noise, creating a spherical disturbance in the air.

Orb of Force...ok, you got me there. 5/6 ain't bad, though.

Kaiyanwang
2008-10-06, 10:50 AM
Orb spell are problematic. I houseruled they are dual school spells (like PHII), Evocation/Conjuration. This restore the sense, at least a little, IMHO. :smallsmile:

Kurald Galain
2008-10-06, 11:00 AM
Orb of Electricity = force lightning, in the shape of an orb.
Orb of Fire = orb of fire.
Orb of Sound = pulse of high-pitched noise, creating a spherical disturbance in the air.
Physics Doesn't Work That Way! Good night! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morbo) :smalltongue:

Keld Denar
2008-10-06, 11:06 AM
2 spells from Spell Compendium that might be fun are Blinding Breath and Blood Wind. Blinding Breath gives your breat weapon the additional caveat that if the subject fails the save, they are blinded peramanently. Now, a smart party of casters would sufficently ward themselves against the breath weapon if they new the flavor, but then there is always Breath Weapon Admixture to spice things up. Oh, and get this...the DC is NOT based on the spell level, its based on th DC of the breath weapon, which makes this 4th level spell useful for even an epic dragon.

Blood Wind is a 1st level spell that makes all natural weapon attacks into ranged attacks with a ranged incriment of 20 feet. This just screams dragon. Screw pounce, make power attack melee attacks while hover 100' off the ground, for a meer -10 to hit. Keeps repulsion aura useful. Nothing says lovin like a ranged pounding. For extra gits and shiggles, toss in a Bloodstar(SC) for a little stackable CON damage on all of those ranged attacks. Now you've got melee attacks that are stronger than many spells you could cast, with the same range and applicablility.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-06, 03:13 PM
Even though the Orb spells can get through the AMF, they won't have any effect on it because it will be immune to that type of damage. It's naturally immune to electricity, and if it casts Extended Energy Immunity 2/day, alternating the energy type every other day, it will be immune to all four other types of energy as well. The only one that could possibly work would be Orb of Force, but nobody ever uses that one, and even if they do it can counterspell it.

mostlyharmful
2008-10-06, 03:18 PM
if it casts Extended Energy Immunity 2/day, alternating the energy type every other day, it will be immune to all four other types of energy as well..

Not sitting inside an AMF it won't, the AMF works both ways, it's a generally good idea for a dragon pretty much solely because WotC written dragons don't use items as they should. Doubly so if they use personal buffs as they should.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-06, 03:20 PM
Not sitting inside an AMF it won't, the AMF works both ways, it's a generally good idea for a dragon pretty much solely because WotC written dragons don't use items as they should. Doubly so if they use personal buffs as they should.

It was discussed earlier that the dragon would be using an epic spell to Ward itself vs AMF, so it and its spells and items would be unaffected by it.

mostlyharmful
2008-10-06, 03:28 PM
It was discussed earlier that the dragon would be using an epic spell to Ward itself vs AMF, so it and its spells and items would be unaffected by it.

You mentioned it as an option to be worked out as an epic casting but cerca the DM ok an AMF is still an AMF. and irrispective Orb spells are non-magical once created see Kurald Galains stuff above, it'd ignore created whatever without some very carefully worded warding, far more than has been skimmed over in parts of this thread.

Cuddly
2008-10-06, 03:43 PM
It was discussed earlier that the dragon would be using an epic spell to Ward itself vs AMF, so it and its spells and items would be unaffected by it.

The piercing cold feat means cold immunity doesn't matter.

namo
2008-10-06, 04:39 PM
the Dragon's inherent spell resistance - I need to bring it down to be affected by some spells and I'd rather not take it down in combat (forces them to spend actions on Assay Resistance), but it would need to be taken down to be affected by many buffs.

From the SRD:
"A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities."

Draz74
2008-10-06, 05:12 PM
Orb of Acid = orb of acid (go figure).
Orb of Cold = ball of packed snow, or something like that.
Orb of Electricity = force lightning, in the shape of an orb.
Orb of Fire = orb of fire.
Orb of Sound = pulse of high-pitched noise, creating a spherical disturbance in the air.

Orb of Force...ok, you got me there. 5/6 ain't bad, though.

So ...

Casting Orb of Acid to conjure a nonmagical orb of acid, then throw it, burns the caster's hand? Same with fire. And what is the fuel source for this "nonmagical orb of fire"?

Snowballs can do 10d6 damage? Dang! All arctic campaigns just got pwned by Master Throwers (or *shudder* Hulking Hurlers).

What exactly is this "Force Lightning" you speak of? We sure haven't learned of such a thing in my Electrical Physics classes.

If there is no magic propelling all of these orbs after they are created, why do they not use the same rules as other thrown weapons? (E.g. range increments)

... basically, the "orb spells aren't affected by AMF or SR because you're just conjuring a nonmagical damaging ball, and throwing it" argument doesn't hold water at all.

MeklorIlavator
2008-10-06, 05:34 PM
So ...
Casting Orb of Acid to conjure a nonmagical orb of acid, then throw it, burns the caster's hand? I don't think it says that the acid is formed from directly on the caster's hands.

Same with fire. And what is the fuel source for this "nonmagical orb of fire"?

The same fuel source that a called fire elemental uses.


Snowballs can do 10d6 damage? Dang! All arctic campaigns just got pwned by Master Throwers (or *shudder* Hulking Hurlers).

More logically, it would summon the energy equivalent of cold(this is Dnd, so we use the classical elements), or if you prefer bringing real world physics into this, the lack of energy. Touching something really cold can be just as dangerous as something really hot.


What exactly is this "Force Lightning" you speak of? We sure haven't learned of such a thing in my Electrical Physics classes.
How about Ball Lightning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning). That should work.


If there is no magic propelling all of these orbs after they are created, why do they not use the same rules as other thrown weapons? (E.g. range increments)
Because this is DnD, so why use a familar mechanic when you can use an entirely different one? More seriously, I always thought of them as similar to an RPG(rocket propelled grenade)/gun, as magic provides initial force/possibly containment.

Arbitrarity
2008-10-06, 06:25 PM
After all, you can't cast the darn things IN an AMF. You can cast them into and through. So magic summon, magic (impact breaks) shell for safety, and a strong propulsion based on the caster's wishes (I mean, 1/2 BAB could be lousy prediction and tracking as well)