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Grey Watcher
2008-10-03, 10:36 PM
What do you think the power source will be for the 4e version of the Bard?

I'd been thinking they'd be Arcane leaders. I had toyed with the idea that Music could be a power source, but, outside the Bard, had trouble figuring out what classes would look like, not to mention it having to share a lot of ground with Psionic power (which we know is coming), as both would probably specialize in powers that influence the thoughts and feelings of others (for good or for ill). But then, in one of my voice lessons, my teacher happened to use the word "primal" in discussing something. What if Bards were the Leader class for the Primal power source, which, I believe, has been stated as the source for Druids and Barbarians. What do you guys think? What other ideas are floating out there for how to power Bards?

Vuzzmop
2008-10-03, 10:43 PM
Not to be sycophantic, but I would have to agree with your hypothesis. I like the sound of a "primal" power source rather than the usual "music of the soul" explanation.

Suzuro
2008-10-03, 10:43 PM
Well, according to my sources, it's an arcane leader. And that source being the races and classes...thing.


-Suzuro

Thanatos 51-50
2008-10-03, 10:47 PM
I was originally thinking it would be something like "Spiritual", using the justification that Bard was a Charisma-heavy class in 3.5 and at many points, it seemed like Charisma was shorthand for "Strength of Spirit".
Also - I think CHA is usable for WILL defense, now.

Other "Spiritual" power sources would be the the Sorceror (Didn't Wizards say one was coming?) and - Favoured Soul?

But, now that you mention Primal, that seems like it fits. Somewhere in the twisted bowel of my heart head.

While we're on the subject - I've yet to see power source actually be very important beyond the occasional AMF or "The Gods are dying" plotline, I don't really see any applications.
This... perturbs me.

BardicDuelist
2008-10-03, 11:00 PM
Arcane Leader. WotC, if I remember correctly, actually said so in one of the preview books or articles. After that, my post is speculation.

I'd imagine that they'd have a fair amount of thunder spells, and probably have a function similar to a TacLord (not in fluff, but basically buff over heal, allow other to attack, etc). I think the one difference is that they will probably be more of a "ranged leader," or at least that that will be an option.

Charisma will almost certainly be used for attacks. They'll probably target AC and Will predominantly, Diplomacy, Insight, History, and Bluff will be class skills.

They will, again almost certainly, require CHA as their primary stat. For the next two, it will probably be a toss up between Dex, Int, and Wis. Unfortunately, I see the Fort defense being their weak point, and probably little to no focus on STR or CON, as the aspects of bards that traditionally would have gone to a Strong or Tough bard seem to have been ripped out and put into the Warlord.

I'd like to see, as the healing power that it seems Leaders are required to have, a "burst" spell/song that allows all allies within the burst to spend a healing surge. Maybe even HSV+CHA mod.

An interesting thing to note is that they already have a Arcane leader, the Artificer. I haven't really read it (I don't subscribe to DDI).

Random NPC
2008-10-04, 01:21 AM
I say Arcane Leader with powers to dabble on Control, Defending and Striking. Bards should be a Jack of All trades

bosssmiley
2008-10-04, 02:40 AM
Lesse. We've had Martial, Arcane & Divine. We're getting Primal and Psionic in 2009. I reckon the source of Bardic power will be RAWK! :smallcool:

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-04, 03:00 AM
I'd say Random NPC's idea is most likely to happen based on what Bards were like before.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-04, 09:08 AM
The Power of Rock (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePowerOfRock), obviously.

Mark Hall
2008-10-04, 09:34 AM
Lesse. We've had Martial, Arcane & Divine. We're getting Primal and Psionic in 2009. I reckon the source of Bardic power will be RAWK! :smallcool:

But wouldn't that be Divine, then, since God Gave Rock n Roll to You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvZyGp-LG4I)?

Morty
2008-10-04, 10:37 AM
We already have an arcane leader, the Artificer, but I think Primal power source fits bards. Bards rocking so hard the world itself would listen- that's Primal when I see it.

BardicDuelist
2008-10-04, 11:23 AM
We already have an arcane leader, the Artificer, but I think Primal power source fits bards. Bards rocking so hard the world itself would listen- that's Primal when I see it.

We have two martial strikers too.

Morty
2008-10-04, 11:34 AM
We have two martial strikers too.

Yes, but it still makes it less likely that bard will be Arcane Leader as well. Not impossible, but less likely. Besides, it seems fitting that a non-setting specific book will introduce an entirely new power source. And finally, bards being Primal would be awesome.

Mando Knight
2008-10-04, 12:08 PM
I had toyed with the idea that Music could be a power source, but, outside the Bard, had trouble figuring out what classes would look like, not to mention it having to share a lot of ground with Psionic power (which we know is coming), as both would probably specialize in powers that influence the thoughts and feelings of others (for good or for ill).

I had thought of the Music power source, too... and then thought that a Conductor could be a Musical Controller. The music source could be a use and manipulation of the rhythm of battle, and Thunder attacks vs. Will would be their main attack...

Orzel
2008-10-04, 12:24 PM
I believe the new flavor for Bards is "Powerful beings love your music so much they give you and your allies power". That is similiar to the Warlock flavor which is Arcane.

Riffington
2008-10-04, 12:26 PM
I believe the new flavor for Bards is "Powerful beings love your music so much they give you and your allies power". That is similiar to the Warlock flavor which is Arcane.

I liked the old "bards are an ancient druidic tradition" so much better than that...

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-04, 12:38 PM
Ironically, I thought that sounded more Divine then Arcane. I'm not sure whether I liked the earlier Bard fluff. It makes sense froma historical perspective, but I'm more used to people mentioning the power difference between Bards and Druids in the 3rd Edition, so I tend to see the initial connection as ironic.

Orzel
2008-10-04, 01:05 PM
I liked the old "bards are an ancient druidic tradition" so much better than that...


I hate that fluff too.
I like the "songs are sonic triggers for the hidden formulas of nature" fluff that goes with primal.
But the think WOTC is going with powerful fey, demons, angels, and other superbeing scry on bard's all the time and do this when they play their favortie song.

Fey Queen: Play "Bad like a Dragon!" Woooohooo! *shoots lazerz at bard's enemies*

Random NPC
2008-10-04, 01:06 PM
I hate that fluff too.
I like the "songs are sonic triggers for the hidden formulas of nature" fluff that goes with primal.
But the think WOTC is going with powerful fey, demons, angels, and other superbeing scry on bard's all the time and do this when they play their favortie song.

Fey Queen: Play "Bad like a Dragon!" Woooohooo! *shoots lazerz at bard's enemies*

Well, Bards are originally the descendants of Druids

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-04, 01:11 PM
A while back, I was inspired to make a load of Bard songs which shared titles with real songs. Can you imagine offensive songs with names like "Rock you Like a Hurricane" and Blackhole Sun"? :smalltongue:

chiasaur11
2008-10-04, 01:34 PM
A while back, I was inspired to make a load of Bard songs which shared titles with real songs. Can you imagine offensive songs with names like "Rock you Like a Hurricane" and Blackhole Sun"? :smalltongue:

Yes, and it is freaking METAL!

Clampdown, White Riot, Blitzkrieg Bop, and Cool it Down would also be good.

Then there's "total control" and "stay free".

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-04, 01:39 PM
Being serious, none of these really work for a Leader from what I can gather. Someone who plays 4th Edition D&D would have a better idea for songs, but would any of these work? http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php/topic,137.0.html . Don't Dream It's Over could be a 1/day ability which gives everyone a healing surce, and Are "Friends" Electric? could be maintained for more then 1 round through concentration.

Larrin
2008-10-04, 01:43 PM
Regardless of orgins in history and early D&D, recent bards have been very solidly arcane. They really don't have ANY 'fury of nature' vibes left in them which would be ther requirements for getting them into the primal power source. I doubt they will see any de-evolution to that effect, if anything they will probably evolve an even more solidly arcane slant.

As many have said, its more or less beyond a doubt confirmed they are arcane leaders. The description of the upcoming "Arcane Power" book mentions bards. etc.

Primal isn't a bad idea for what bards once were, but the modern incarnations aren't primal, IMO.

Noble Savant
2008-10-04, 01:54 PM
An idea comes to mind. Are we certain that they are Leaders? I think it could be interesting if they were altered to be controllers rather then leaders. Causing all kinds of mischief with song sounds like an interesting concept. They would probably have a few Leader-Like powers though, to prevent the change from being too jarring.

I realize that it is unlikely, but is still an interesting concept.

chiasaur11
2008-10-04, 01:55 PM
"Run, Run, Run" would be a fairly good Bard power name.

It, obviously, would boost movement.

JaxGaret
2008-10-04, 01:59 PM
I'm fairly certain that I've seen it stated by the devs elsewhere than in Races and Classes that Bards are going to be Arcane Leaders.

And I'm happy with that. Note that it doesn't mean that the Primal power source can't also have a Bard-type Primal Leader called a "Tribal Troubadour" or what have you.

Ealstan
2008-10-04, 04:56 PM
Bards are going to be the first Arcane leader (Artificer won't be released until fall 2009 w/ Eberron), in the Player's Handbook 2. They are slotted to be in arcane power alongside the sorceror (which will be our 2nd arcane controller) and other arcane classes. Much as I wish they were primal, they are not :smallfrown:

I'm a fan of the tribal troubadour being a primal leader. It could fit into the leaked info we have already as the Skald. One of the devs gave out the first letters of all the classes in PHB2, Which go like this:

B
B
S
S
D
W
I
T

Five of the classes are repeats of previous classes, four of which are:

Barbarian
Bard
Sorceror
S
Druid
W
I
T

So we have one more repeat in PHB2, and three completely new classes. I'm all for Skald being a primal leader. :smallsmile:

Tengu_temp
2008-10-04, 05:04 PM
I'm pretty sure that sorcerers won't be Arcane in 4e.

Ealstan
2008-10-04, 05:13 PM
Sorcerors are also pretty confirmed as an Arcane Controller, as evidenced by writing from some dev talking about the difficulties of making two classes with the same power source and role feel unique. The example he used was wizard and sorceror, and how they tossed in the sorceror in 3e as a stop-gap, blah blah blah. Anyways, he said they found a neat way to make the overlap less obvious, and make both the wizards and sorcerors feel different.

This could be some sort of flim flam misdirection, but I don't think so.

Vortling
2008-10-04, 05:17 PM
I'm pretty sure that sorcerers won't be Arcane in 4e.

I had heard words that they were going to be of the primal or elemental power source. If they do make the bard an arcane leader I'm wondering if they'll switch up the healing abilities some or just make another variety of healing word.

YPU
2008-10-04, 05:28 PM
Healing song no doubt.
From the race and class thing book I believe there was mention of sorcerer becoming more elemental style, getting aura’s after casting spells. This idea has probably changed by now but it did sound kind of neat.

Shadow_Elf
2008-10-04, 06:21 PM
Sorceror is going to be elemental Power Source, I think.

Also, PHB2 is meant to introduce new power sources I think. Unless Bard is a non-arcane class, it probably won't show up in PHB2. Monks are Spirit powered, Druids and Barbarians are Primal Powered, and then you have psionics. Make Bards Spirit, and there you have it:

Player's Handbook II: Primal, Elemental and Spirit heroes.

*Or you could switch elemental for psionic and bring in the sorceror when people get bored of the wizard :smallsigh:.*

JaxGaret
2008-10-04, 07:01 PM
PHBII has been definitively stated as having the Arcane, Divine, and Primal power sources. Also, the Sorcerer is definitely going to be an Arcane Controller.

They may have taken any work they did on an Elemental Controller type of Sorcerer, and turned that over to a brand new class for a future book, name unknown.

Ealstan
2008-10-04, 11:02 PM
PHBII has been definitively stated as having the Arcane, Divine, and Primal power sources. Also, the Sorcerer is definitely going to be an Arcane Controller.

They may have taken any work they did on an Elemental Controller type of Sorcerer, and turned that over to a brand new class for a future book, name unknown.

The devs have also stated (I believe) that there are only going to be 2 arcane power source classes in PHB2. Those are Bard and Sorceror. I believe there are going to be 2 divine classes, so that would leave 4 for primal. I'd really like to see a divine striker, some sort of heavy armor two-handed weapon divine punisher.

BardicDuelist
2008-10-05, 01:45 AM
The devs have also stated (I believe) that there are only going to be 2 arcane power source classes in PHB2. Those are Bard and Sorceror. I believe there are going to be 2 divine classes, so that would leave 4 for primal. I'd really like to see a divine striker, some sort of heavy armor two-handed weapon divine punisher.

If it's heavy armor, it won't be a striker. That doesn't mean that you couldn't find a way to give it heavy armor (proficiency feats).

Do you think one of them will be something like a True Namer? Actually...

Bard
Barbarian
Sorcerer
Shaman?
Druid
Witch or Wayfinder (Looking through older editions for possible names).
Inquisitor or Incarnate?
True Namer?

The Mormegil
2008-10-05, 05:28 AM
My bet:
A) Bard
A) Sorcerer
D) Chosen Soul
D) ???
P) Barbarian
P) Druid
P) Shaman
P) ???

Which isn't a real bet, but anyway.

BardicDuelist
2008-10-05, 10:22 AM
My bet:
A) Bard
A) Sorcerer
D) Chosen Soul
D) ???
P) Barbarian
P) Druid
P) Shaman
P) ???

Which isn't a real bet, but anyway.


There's no C.

Ealstan
2008-10-05, 11:45 AM
If it's heavy armor, it won't be a striker. That doesn't mean that you couldn't find a way to give it heavy armor (proficiency feats).

But I want one... :smallfrown:




Do you think one of them will be something like a True Namer? Actually...

Bard
Barbarian
Sorcerer
Shaman?
Druid
Witch or Wayfinder (Looking through older editions for possible names).
Inquisitor or Incarnate?
True Namer?

I pray to the twelve gods True Namer never sees the light of day again. But the rest of this list I think is quite close. My bet is on this for the list:

Bard (Arcane Leader)
Barbarian (Primal Striker)
Sorceror (Arcane Controller)
Shaman (Primal Leader)
Druid (Primal Controller)
Witch or Warden (Primal Controller or Defender, resp.)
Inquisitor (Divine Striker)
Theurge or Thaumaturge (Divine Controller)

Of course this gets thrown out almost completely if they end up releasing the full bard early in something else, like a Dragon article.

BardicDuelist
2008-10-05, 11:54 AM
But I want one... :smallfrown:




I pray to the twelve gods True Namer never sees the light of day again. But the rest of this list I think is quite close. My bet is on this for the list:

Bard (Arcane Leader)
Barbarian (Primal Striker)
Sorceror (Arcane Controller)
Shaman (Primal Leader)
Druid (Primal Controller)
Witch or Warden (Primal Controller or Defender, resp.)
Inquisitor (Divine Striker)
Theurge or Thaumaturge (Divine Controller)

Of course this gets thrown out almost completely if they end up releasing the full bard early in something else, like a Dragon article.

I actually tend to agree (and am leaning toward Warden as a Primal Defender), and a divine controller would be cool too.

Even if they end up releasing Bard in a Dragon article, they'll still put it in a PHB (isn't the Artificer going to be in Eberron?).

Ealstan
2008-10-05, 04:30 PM
I actually tend to agree (and am leaning toward Warden as a Primal Defender), and a divine controller would be cool too.

Even if they end up releasing Bard in a Dragon article, they'll still put it in a PHB (isn't the Artificer going to be in Eberron?).

The artificer they let out was just a playtest version of ideas they were thinking on, I think that once they get DDI running fully (and have people paying) they'll let some real crunch come out on the site. I don't think they'll release Bard outside of a book (it would peeve of their luddite fans too much), but they still could.