A Whirlwind of questions

[Magnor Criol]

I'm playing a Djinni, Savage Species class progression, in one campaign I'm in. Been pretty fun so far (the other two members of the party are a class-progression neutral succubus and a half-silver dragon. We call our party Monsters, Inc.)

We just got to 4th level last session, which gave me access to the Whirlwind (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersG.html#djinni) ability 1/day. The implementation of this ability is where I have questions, as the MM entry for a Djinni doesn't really answer all the questions I have about it, and right now it seems....horrendously powerful.

1. Can creatures attack me while I'm in whirlwind form? I'm assuming so, especially given the line about "....does not provoke attacks of opportunity...," but just to make sure.

2. Where, exactly, are creatures I've caught up in the whirlwind? "The djinni can have only as many trapped inside a whirlwind at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind’s volume," but it doesn't say anything about where they are inside the whirlwind. This is important in terms of who and how my allies can attack; could I clump all my trapped creatures at the bottom of my whirlwind and let my allies attack the enemies crowded in a tight space?

3. Do creatures I've caught up gain any particular modifiers to their attack rolls against me? What about touch attacks, gaze attacks (like a Vamp's Dominate ability), things like that? How do things inside of me interact with me?

4. I do 3d6 damage to anyone who fails a DC 20 Ref save when I enter a creature's square, and 1d8 damage per round to those who get sucked up into me. What sort of damage is this? The MM entry doesn't specifically state it, so is it untyped damage?

5. Creatures get a Ref save to avoid getting sucked into the whirlwind. If they fail, they get 1d8 damage per round. Only creatures with a fly speed get a chance to make yet another Ref save to escape. Is there really no chance for other creatures I suck up to escape, unless I choose to let them out? I have a DC 20 Ref save or take 1d8 unavoidable damage per round ability? Considering it lasts for up to 7 rounds, and I have a good chance of also dealing 3d6 damage when I first touch them as well, this seems....very strong.

6. I can eject carried creatures "wherever the whirlwind happens to be." The whirlwind can be up to 50 ft tall and 30 ft wide at the top - that's a lot of places to be. If I want to raise targets to the top of the whirlwind and drop them from the top, how's that governed? At what speed can I move them upward (assuming I can' just warp them up to the top of the whirlwind in one round)? Would they really just fall, or would they get thrown somewhere from the winds and their own momentum?

[ColonelFuster]

Yikes.
Take this to the Wizards board, son.

[Fax Celestis]

1. Can creatures attack me while I'm in whirlwind form? I'm assuming so, especially given the line about "....does not provoke attacks of opportunity...," but just to make sure.Yup: there's nothing that says you're unattackable. You just don't provoke AoOs.


2. Where, exactly, are creatures I've caught up in the whirlwind? "The djinni can have only as many trapped inside a whirlwind at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind’s volume," but it doesn't say anything about where they are inside the whirlwind. This is important in terms of who and how my allies can attack; could I clump all my trapped creatures at the bottom of my whirlwind and let my allies attack the enemies crowded in a tight space?You can put them wherever you like, as long as they are fully contained within your whirlwind volume.


3. Do creatures I've caught up gain any particular modifiers to their attack rolls against me? What about touch attacks, gaze attacks (like a Vamp's Dominate ability), things like that? How do things inside of me interact with me?No special modifiers: indeed, the penalties accrued by being thrown about in a whirlwind still apply.


4. I do 3d6 damage to anyone who fails a DC 20 Ref save when I enter a creature's square, and 1d8 damage per round to those who get sucked up into me. What sort of damage is this? The MM entry doesn't specifically state it, so is it untyped damage?It is the same type as an unarmed/slam attack (as that's essentially what it is), so bludgeoning. Also remember that the save is Strength based, so it's not fixed at 20. The save should be calculated as 10 + 1/2 HD + Str Mod + 3 Racial Bonus.


5. Creatures get a Ref save to avoid getting sucked into the whirlwind. If they fail, they get 1d8 damage per round. Only creatures with a fly speed get a chance to make yet another Ref save to escape. Is there really no chance for other creatures I suck up to escape, unless I choose to let them out? I have a DC 20 Ref save or take 1d8 unavoidable damage per round ability? Considering it lasts for up to 7 rounds, and I have a good chance of also dealing 3d6 damage when I first touch them as well, this seems....very strong.It IS very strong. The creature is CR 5, granted, but the ability was designed to be used on PCs, not BY PCs. Technically, yes, nonflying creatures are SOL, but as a DM I'd allow anyone you maintain inside your whirlwind that's near the ground the same save to escape.


6. I can eject carried creatures "wherever the whirlwind happens to be." The whirlwind can be up to 50 ft tall and 30 ft wide at the top - that's a lot of places to be. If I want to raise targets to the top of the whirlwind and drop them from the top, how's that governed? At what speed can I move them upward (assuming I can' just warp them up to the top of the whirlwind in one round)? Would they really just fall, or would they get thrown somewhere from the winds and their own momentum?You can move them around your whirlwind volume however you choose. Dropping them would inflict falling damage, and they would fall straight down (though having them fall as if thrown would be apt, the rules don't actually state this happens).

[Magnor Criol]

Yikes.
Take this to the Wizards board, son.

No, thanks; I don't really like it there. Granted, I've never given it a try, really. =p But I'm used to here, and the people here are more than capable of answering.


[Answers]

Thankee much, milord. You answered it all pretty much as we guessed. Thanks (and not thanks) for mentioning the Ref save DC being lower than 20 right now, I'd forgotten about scaling. That makes it a bit less hideous, then; a DC 13 reflex is significantly less certain doom than a DC 20.

[Sinfire Titan]

No, thanks; I don't really like it there. Granted, I've never given it a try, really. =p But I'm used to here, and the people here are more than capable of answering.

Gleemax is made of fail, but only the coding itself. The members vary between Failures and Quality Members, with a vast majority in between.

There was a period of 8 or so months where Gleemax would constantly fail on you mid-post, refusing to allow you to view pages for hours, or even days, on end. That period is largly over now, but a lot of people have migrated away from them because of it.

[only1doug]

I'm playing a Djinni, Savage Species class progression, in one campaign I'm in. Been pretty fun so far (the other two members of the party are a class-progression neutral succubus and a half-silver dragon. We call our party Monsters, Inc.)

We just got to 4th level last session, which gave me access to the Whirlwind (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersG.html#djinni) ability 1/day. The implementation of this ability is where I have questions, as the MM entry for a Djinni doesn't really answer all the questions I have about it, and right now it seems....horrendously powerful.

Fax's Answers seem reasonable, I'm going to give you my opinion (that i developed before i read his)



1. Can creatures attack me while I'm in whirlwind form? I'm assuming so, especially given the line about "....does not provoke attacks of opportunity...," but just to make sure.

Yes they can attack you; I'd rule that you are exactly as attackable as someone who is using a gaseous form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm) spell: DR10:magic immune to crits and spells.
NOTE: your changed size may affect your AC detrimentally



2. Where, exactly, are creatures I've caught up in the whirlwind? "The djinni can have only as many trapped inside a whirlwind at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind’s volume," but it doesn't say anything about where they are inside the whirlwind. This is important in terms of who and how my allies can attack; could I clump all my trapped creatures at the bottom of my whirlwind and let my allies attack the enemies crowded in a tight space?

you can move them to anywhere they would fit. As a GM i would rule that if the creatures were all squished at the bottom they could attempt to push themselves out of the area (given stuff to push against) basically i'd give them the fliers escape DC.
The base is only 5' wide, you could fit 2 medium creatures into 5' but it would be easy for them to push each other out of that 5'. (i'd set DC10)



3. Do creatures I've caught up gain any particular modifiers to their attack rolls against me? What about touch attacks, gaze attacks (like a Vamp's Dominate ability), things like that? How do things inside of me interact with me?
Again, as attackable as Gaseous form.

In my opinion: touch attacks won't hit, gaze attempts that require you to see them won't work. any attempts to spellcast need a spellcraft check as listed.




4. I do 3d6 damage to anyone who fails a DC 20 Ref save when I enter a creature's square, and 1d8 damage per round to those who get sucked up into me. What sort of damage is this? The MM entry doesn't specifically state it, so is it untyped damage?

seems to be untyped damage to me.



5. Creatures get a Ref save to avoid getting sucked into the whirlwind. If they fail, they get 1d8 damage per round. Only creatures with a fly speed get a chance to make yet another Ref save to escape. Is there really no chance for other creatures I suck up to escape, unless I choose to let them out? I have a DC 20 Ref save or take 1d8 unavoidable damage per round ability? Considering it lasts for up to 7 rounds, and I have a good chance of also dealing 3d6 damage when I first touch them as well, this seems....very strong.

I would grant creatures placed into close proximity to other creatures the same chance as fliers to escape by throwing themselves out. If lots of creatures were placed in close proximity this would be easier.
Those creatures within reach of the ground would also get a chance based on how near the ground you put them.



6. I can eject carried creatures "wherever the whirlwind happens to be." The whirlwind can be up to 50 ft tall and 30 ft wide at the top - that's a lot of places to be. If I want to raise targets to the top of the whirlwind and drop them from the top, how's that governed? At what speed can I move them upward (assuming I can' just warp them up to the top of the whirlwind in one round)? Would they really just fall, or would they get thrown somewhere from the winds and their own momentum?

I would rule that the whirlwind can move creatures within its area at its fly speed. that's 60' (perfect) so yes you can throw them out of the top the same round you suck them up. (and carry on doing so each round for 7 rounds).

Congrats; you have invented a reverse helter-skelter

[Magnor Criol]

Yes they can attack you; I'd rule that you are exactly as attackable as someone who is using a gaseous form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm) spell: DR10:magic immune to crits and spells.
NOTE: your changed size may affect your AC detrimentally

We decided in-session that I didn't get any DR, immunities, etc. like gaseous form grants largely because it was simpler to adjudicate at the time, and faster than spending a while looking up precedent. I think I'll angle for immunity to crits and maybe fort-based abilities, but the DR I think I'll drop; it seems appropriate with the justification we came up with for why creatures are able to attack a whirlwind. We'll see.
I hadn't thought about AC being changed by my size! Thanks for catching that.


As a GM i would rule that if the creatures were all squished at the bottom they could attempt to push themselves out of the area (given stuff to push against) basically i'd give them the fliers escape DC.
The base is only 5' wide, you could fit 2 medium creatures into 5' but it would be easy for them to push each other out of that 5'. (i'd set DC10)

Spiffy thought, and makes a whole lot of sense, too. This helps balance things a little more. The biggest unbalancing factor of my being able to crowd people in the bottom of the whirlwind together is that lets me corral them for easy pickings by our party's muscle, a half-dragon with 28 STR...



Again, as attackable as Gaseous form.

In my opinion: touch attacks won't hit, gaze attempts that require you to see them won't work. any attempts to spellcast need a spellcraft check as listed.

Hm...I'll consider these. While it makes sense that a touch attack wouldn't hit (I'm a mostly insubstantial whirlwind - no body to touch) that again seems a bit unfair.



I would rule that the whirlwind can move creatures within its area at its fly speed. that's 60' (perfect) so yes you can throw them out of the top the same round you suck them up. (and carry on doing so each round for 7 rounds).

Actually, my fly speed is only 30 feet right now; Savage Species class progression. It won't be 60 feet until 7th level.

[Suzuro]

It seems that if you put them in the bottom for your party to attack, he would actually have to attack you I mean, they are inside you, so he would end up having to attack through you.


-Suzuro

[only1doug]

We decided in-session that I didn't get any DR, immunities, etc. like gaseous form grants largely because it was simpler to adjudicate at the time, and faster than spending a while looking up precedent. I think I'll angle for immunity to crits and maybe fort-based abilities, but the DR I think I'll drop; it seems appropriate with the justification we came up with for why creatures are able to attack a whirlwind. We'll see.
I hadn't thought about AC being changed by my size! Thanks for catching that.
Gaseous form does seem to me the most appropriate way of handling the transformation to a whirlwind, the major difference being that you move faster. Gaseous form loses material and natural armour bonuses, making you easier to hit and gains DR from insubstantiality. Remember that creatures with DR/magic count as having magic weapons with their natural attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) which will give your enemies a chance to hit you.
text from SRD:
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.




Spiffy thought, and makes a whole lot of sense, too. This helps balance things a little more. The biggest unbalancing factor of my being able to crowd people in the bottom of the whirlwind together is that lets me corral them for easy pickings by our party's muscle, a half-dragon with 28 STR...

Glad you like it. As mentioned by Suzoro you need to consider whether the attack that hits them will also hit you (as you surround them)




Hm...I'll consider these. While it makes sense that a touch attack wouldn't hit (I'm a mostly insubstantial whirlwind - no body to touch) that again seems a bit unfair.
balance is an issue, ultimately your GM will decide, thats how i would rule it, again i'm mostly using Gaseous form to judge by, if you can't deliver touch attacks then neither can they be delivered to you. I don't know why i said immune to spells, i meant immune to poison.
bad doug, no cookie.
you would be effected by spells as appropriate for each spell. (case by case basis) fireball would hit, so would lightning bolt, not sure about magic missile as i always invisaged that as physically hitting the target, I wouldn't have you be affected by gas type spells such as solid fog, cloudkill or fog cloud, instead you would be able to move such effects within you in any manner you choose.



Actually, my fly speed is only 30 feet right now; Savage Species class progression. It won't be 60 feet until 7th level.

then that would be how far i would allow you to move anyone inside you, move rate/round