PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Some more barbarian questions.



Handsome Rob
2008-10-08, 02:32 AM
Thanks for all the help with finding a good barbarian race. Unfortunately my fellow players accused me of rampant power gaming, so I had to pick a core race. Here is the build so far (as much as I can remember, I don't have my sheet with me):

Half-orc Barbarian 5
Str: 20
Con: 18
Dex: 14
Int: 9
Wis: 12
Cha: 9
HP: 68
AC: 15 (2 dex, 3 studded leather)
Saves: Fort 8, Ref 3, Will 2
BAB: 5
Attacks: Large Greataxe +1 +9/3d6+8, Composite Longbow (+5 Str bonus) +7/1d8+5
Feats: 1-Power Attack, Flaw-Monkey Grip, 3-Cleave
Flaw: Chubby Fingers- -5 to all crafting and dex related skill checks involving the intricate use of the fingers.

So that's the build so far. The basic principle behind this character is dealing out and soaking up massive damage at the expense of everything else. As such, I'm wondering if there are any feats that let you increase your damage by sacrificing your AC, like the 4e barbarian encounter power, and any feats that grant damage reduction?

Any comments, criticisms or suggestions on the character are welcome and appreciated

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-08, 02:37 AM
There's a feat that grants DR1/-, stacking, but it's about Weapon Focus-level. For the others, what you want is Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and a Lance. Wield the Lance 2-Handed, and take the Variant that grants Pounce. Charge, Power Attacking for full at an x4 ratio. You kill things. A lot. And if any of the enemies survive, you die. I recommend Blurring or Displacing armor immediately. Also, a ToB dip is good, probably at 9th level.

The_Snark
2008-10-08, 02:42 AM
Er, if your fellow gamers feel you're powergaming too much, you really shouldn't be using flaws—especially not that one; I don't know if it's homebrew or what, but I doubt that being unable to pick locks or craft things will ever seriously affect your orc barbarian. Monkey Grip can be a problematic feat as it is, so I'd just drop that. The build looks like a pretty solid barbarian as-is; I'd recommend taking Extra Rage at some point, but that's mostly just because I'm paranoid about running out of /per day abilities.

As for your other questions, Improved Damage Reduction (Complete Warrior) will raise your DR 1 by 1, but you have to already have damage reduction. If your DM allows Savage Species (doubtful, if it's core races only) there's a feat in there that raises DR by 2, and another that will give you a stacking DR 2/- (but which requires Toughness and a Con higher than yours).

Eldariel
2008-10-08, 04:18 AM
Monkey Grip is a trap. It gives you -2 to hit and no notable damage increase. Power Attack already allows you to do that, except gives you more damage and is easier to control. Don't take Monkey Grip - if you wanna wield bigger weapons, get Strongarm Bracers (Magic Item Compendium). For few thousands, you can wield a bigger weapon without penalties.

Your other feat - Improved Bull Rush is indeed a solid choice with Shock Trooper coming next - the standard Charger-fare. Then get Extra Rage; you don't have nearly enough Rage-uses early on to Rage all the time, but you want to, so more Rage = good. Extra Rage goes a long way to allowing you to smash things better.


Other than that, I'd consider alternative class features:
*Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) is much better against physically fighting opponents, but lacks the Will-save associated with standard Rage along with the extra HP, so it's somewhat worse against magical opponents. Having AC bonus instead of penalty is huge when not Shock Trooping though.

*Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) has few great replacement features including:

-Ferocity - another Rage-variant; this gives you bonus to Str and Dex without the normal AC penalty.

-Skilled City-Dweller - allows you to swap out Wilderness-skills for City-skills (Ride > Tumble and Handle Animal > Gather Information usually, although you can also get Sense Motive from Survival); I usually pick all the applicables up unless your party needs a Wilderness Dude.

-Street Fighter - replaces Damage Reduction (whole 3/- of it...) with Charge-improvements! First ability gives you Critical Range-improvement (so your Keen Greatsword threatens on 15-20!), the second allows turning while charging, third allows you to ignore non-hostile obstacles while charging, fourth allows you to charge 4 times as far as normal, and the last one allows you to charge an opponent 10' away if you drop your first target. I think this is what the Barbarian should've had in the first place; I mean, the Barbarian is the Charger.

*Trapkiller in Dungeonscape allows you to find traps with Survival-checks and to disarm them with attack rolls. Replaces your useless Trap Sense-ability; I really like this one. Allows the Barbarian to act as the trapfinder too (although to disarm magical traps, you still need the spellcaster or the Rogue around - that should be no problem though)

Handsome Rob
2008-10-08, 05:13 AM
Thanks guys, there's heaps of stuff to think about. The flaw is a homebrew, and a pretty weak one at that. I think I'll just drop the flaw and Monkey Grip. Wielding a Large weapon makes me overpower the other party members at lower levels and then when the party's two casters begin to make me obsolete, I can pick up those Strongarm Bracer's.

At the risk of sounding as naïve as I really am, what is Shock Trooper? And can I do it with a greataxe?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-08, 05:25 AM
Shock Trooper is from C.War, and allows you to apply the penalty from your Power Attack to your AC instead of your BAB. You'll be able to take it at level 6, assuming you drop a feat on Imp. Bull Rush. Try to work in Leap Attack, too, but it's not necessary.
I'd also recommend dropping Monkey Grip, on the basis that it sucks. You take a -2 penalty to-hit for an average of 2 points of damage increase(on the Greatsword). Alternatively, you could subtract 2 BAB and add 4 damage from Power Attack. Get the difference?

Handsome Rob
2008-10-08, 06:04 AM
Yeah, i'll definitely be dropping Monkey Grip. I'll pick up Imp. Bullrush and I'm tossing up between the SRD flaws Vulnerable, which is a -1 to AC and Weak- Willed, -3 to Will saves. Murky Eyes, roll miss chance twice and take the worst result, would fit in with the character but I'm not convinced it'll come up enough to merit an extra flaw.

I'll also be taking the Trapkiller, Whirling Frenzy and Streetfighter alternate features. And not using an oversized weapon means I have more money to spend on armour, weapons and magic goodies. Looks like you really helped me dodge a bullet with Monkey Grip!

SilentDungeon
2008-10-08, 06:09 AM
Prehaps the flaws are intentional. I am usually for sacrificing game power if it improves my story or helps the RP get along.
BUT! If you are really looking for a serious powergamer(ICK),then drop the flaws. But, its your preference really.

Chineselegolas
2008-10-08, 07:09 AM
Less con, more dex. Glaive + Combat Expertise.

You have the ability to deal lots of damage with raging strength, why not maximize the number of times you get to swing.
And make sure for the enemy to get to your friends they need to come through you giving you the extra attacks.

While it isn't optimal, it does work scarily well until the DM learns to customize monsters with tumble.
Purely core too so if they start to complain you are going to powerful, you are only core, and a non-caster too.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-08, 07:28 AM
The flaw is a homebrew

I could tell by the fact that it's not actually a flaw at all. Seriously, only rogues using Sleight of Hand, Open Locks, and Disable Devices would ever be inconvenienced by it, and they wouldn't take it.

Sstoopidtallkid: Why a lance? Wouldn't a greataxe be better? Same crit multiplier, higher base damage, no reach (it seems more a disadvantage than anything in a barbarian charger build).

Darrin
2008-10-08, 08:15 AM
Yeah, i'll definitely be dropping Monkey Grip. I'll pick up Imp. Bullrush and I'm tossing up between the SRD flaws Vulnerable, which is a -1 to AC and Weak- Willed, -3 to Will saves. Murky Eyes, roll miss chance twice and take the worst result, would fit in with the character but I'm not convinced it'll come up enough to merit an extra flaw.


If you really need to wield an oversize weapon, just buy some Strongarm Bracers (Magic Item Compendium, p. 139) as soon as you get 6000 GP. There's also a Touchstone feat/location in Sandstorm (p. 55, Sunken City of Pazar) that can give you something similar to Powerful Build 1/day for 1 minute. You can also add the sizing property to your magical weapon to resize on the fly for just 5000 GP.

Flaws: *NEVER* take "Weak Will" as a Barbarian. Your will save is already going to be murderously low, another -3 turns you into Every Enchanter's Favorite Meat Puppet. If you want to take a save-related flaw, stick with Meager Fortitude, since your Con is already high, rage makes it higher, and you can usually bury that -3 penalty with a couple barbarian-friendly Prestige Class dips that each give a +2 to fort. Otherwise, Murky-Eyed would probably be better, but I'd recommend taking Shaky. Barbarian charger making ranged attacks is a little like a fish trying to ride a bicycle.

As a half-orc, you are also eligible for Headlong Rush, which gives you a damage multiplier on charges. It's from an online excerpt from Races of Faerun, but it's a general feat... check if your DM would allow it:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a

Your target and anyone else you charge by gets an AoO, but you can avoid most of those AoOs with a reach weapon and the Twisted Charge skill trick (Complete Scoundrel, p. 90). The Elusive Dance feat from Dragon #333 can also be helpful with avoiding AoOs:

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Elusive_Dance,Dragon

Pick one target, and he gets no AoOs on you, and there's nothing he can do about it.

Also, as a half-orc, you might want to consider becoming a Dragonborn of Bahumat (Races of the Dragon, p. 8). Costs 100 GP for the Ritual of Rebirth, but gives you +2 Con, -2 Dex, and you can get either a breath weapon, flying, or better vision abilities. You'd lose darkvision, but that's easily fixed with a torch, continual flame, potion of darkvision, etc.

Eldariel
2008-10-08, 08:46 AM
Prehaps the flaws are intentional. I am usually for sacrificing game power if it improves my story or helps the RP get along.
BUT! If you are really looking for a serious powergamer(ICK),then drop the flaws. But, its your preference really.

You got it backwards. Using flaws which do not weaken your character pretty much at all is textbook powergaming (unless, of course, those flaws just happen to be an integral part of the character's background story - in that case it could be called powergaming, but also just a convenient coincidence).


Barbarian charger making ranged attacks is a little like a fish trying to ride a bicycle.

I prefer the term "Rigelian sandworm in water without a bicycle." Sound advice though.

Handsome Rob
2008-10-08, 09:54 AM
*Trapkiller in Dungeonscape allows you to find traps with Survival-checks and to disarm them with attack rolls. Replaces your useless Trap Sense-ability; I really like this one. Allows the Barbarian to act as the trapfinder too (although to disarm magical traps, you still need the spellcaster or the Rogue around - that should be no problem though)

I don't have this book, what are the specifics?

Eldariel
2008-10-08, 10:52 AM
I don't have this book, what are the specifics?

Lose Trap Sense. You use Survival-check to find traps (as Rogue would with search), but at a -5 penalty. You can disarm mechanical traps with components (for example, pitfalls are undisarmables, but most pressure plates and such you can disarm) with an attack roll. That's it.

Person_Man
2008-10-08, 02:10 PM
How about this:

Halfling Fighter X

Buy a riding dog. Use a lance two handed from the back of your mount. Take Combat Reflexes, Stand Still (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stand_Still), Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, and Spirited Charge. At higher levels, take Leadership for a better mount. Excellent offense, defense, and mobility. And its pure SRD. You could even drop Stand Still for the inferior Improved Trip for a pure core build, but it has Combat Expertise as a pre-req.

If you're stuck on Barbarian, consider the PHBII Barbarian variant. It has a rage variant that gives you a bonus to Str, saves, and DR that stacks with your normal Barb DR, but it only only activates when you drop below 5*Barbarian level hit points (roughly 50% of your hit points, depending on your Con, and assuming you're a strait Barbarian). So you'd only rage when you're badly hurt (eliminating the "this is pure cheese" argument) but you'd be guaranteed to rage every time you're hurt (making death a lot less likely, and making your party members happy that you can self buff whenever they are losing a battle). Goes well with feats like Karmic Strike (Complete Warrior).

There's also Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50588), which is defensively strong, but offensively modest compared to most other melee builds. Most players see cheese as "I can kill faster then you." So if you focus on defense or buffing other party members, they complain less.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-08, 02:19 PM
Monkey Grip is a trap. It gives you -2 to hit and no notable damage increase. Power Attack already allows you to do that, except gives you more damage and is easier to control. Don't take Monkey Grip - if you wanna wield bigger weapons, get Strongarm Bracers (Magic Item Compendium). For few thousands, you can wield a bigger weapon without penalties.

LIES. Monkey Grip is effective in one instance, and one instance alone: when you consistently get a large damage multiplier (not a critical multiplier, mind you--that's too infrequent).

A fighter or paladin astride a diving Giant Eagle using Spirited Charge and wielding a lance pulls a x4 on damage, higher if you go outside of core. It is in this instance and this instance alone that Monkey Grip has been proven superior.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-08, 03:22 PM
There's also Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50588), which is defensively strong, but offensively modest compared to most other melee builds. Most players see cheese as "I can kill faster then you." So if you focus on defense or buffing other party members, they complain less.

Shouldn't you take the Berserk Flaming (forget name) feat that gives you immunity while raging to Fire in that build?
Otherwise you take more damage because it requires the freezing berserker feat.

Eldariel
2008-10-08, 03:43 PM
LIES. Monkey Grip is effective in one instance, and one instance alone: when you consistently get a large damage multiplier (not a critical multiplier, mind you--that's too infrequent).

A fighter or paladin astride a diving Giant Eagle using Spirited Charge and wielding a lance pulls a x4 on damage, higher if you go outside of core. It is in this instance and this instance alone that Monkey Grip has been proven superior.

Yes, in which case Monkey Grip is worse than a 6000gp item. And since virtual size increases don't stack, Monkey Grip may be read to actually force you to take a -2 penalty where you normally wouldn't. With sufficient size increases, you can make Monkey Grip better than comparative Power Attack (or applying standard D&D multiplication to Power Attack - I never bother since it includes too much math that delays the game), but making Monkey Grip better compared to Powerful Build or Strongarm Bracers or such takes a very specialized campaign and a lot of effort. In short, it isn't worth it to make Monkey Grip worth it.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-08, 03:45 PM
Yes, in which case Monkey Grip is worse than a 6000gp item. And since virtual size increases don't stack, Monkey Grip may be read to actually force you to take a -2 penalty where you normally wouldn't.

Not according to the rewritten version in Weapons of Legacy. Further, that 6000 gp item takes up an item slot that could be better used for other items.

Eldariel
2008-10-08, 03:52 PM
Not according to the rewritten version in Weapons of Legacy. Further, that 6000 gp item takes up an item slot that could be better used for other items.

Costs 9000gp to add to any Bracers as per DMG rules. As for the rewrite of Monkey Grip, I fail to see what excuses the wielder of the -2 penalty if also using Strongarm Bracers :o

Fax Celestis
2008-10-08, 03:55 PM
Costs 9000gp to add to any Bracers as per DMG rules. As for the rewrite of Monkey Grip, I fail to see what excuses the wielder of the -2 penalty if also using Strongarm Bracers :o

No, I mean the feat states in the WoL version that the -2 only applies when using a wrong-sized weapon.

EDIT: On top of that, Monkey Grip is applicable to a first-level character, while 6000 gp is most of the WBL for a character of fifth level and is completely unaffordable prior to that. Late-game, sure, the bracers are probably a better choice. But early-game, MG has a use.

Eldariel
2008-10-08, 03:58 PM
No, I mean the feat states in the WoL version that the -2 only applies when using a wrong-sized weapon.

Oh, that I never questioned. I actually wasn't aware of such issues in the original. Anyways, it appears we agreed all the way :P Stupid misconceptions...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-08, 11:02 PM
Sstoopidtallkid: Why a lance? Wouldn't a greataxe be better? Same crit multiplier, higher base damage, no reach (it seems more a disadvantage than anything in a barbarian charger build).Reach is a good thing in a pouncing charger build. You an hit multiple enemies easier, and hit their friends when they attempt to reach you(AoOs). Plus, there's this:
A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount.Doesn't always apply, but very nice when it does.