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Jack Zander
2008-10-09, 12:28 PM
Does the battle sorcerer variant make the Dragon Disciple worth it?


Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer
The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.

Hit Die
d8.

Base Attack Bonus
The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric.

Class Skills
Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list.

Class Features
The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor.

Spellcasting
A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.

A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).

A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).

AstralFire
2008-10-09, 12:31 PM
Does the battle sorcerer-

Whatever the end of that sentence is, no.


-make the Dragon Disciple worth it?

Whatever the beginning of that sentence is, no.

monty
2008-10-09, 12:34 PM
Battle Sorcerer is a weak caster. Dragon Disciple makes casters weak. If you combine them...stop before it's too late.

JaxGaret
2008-10-09, 12:37 PM
Whatever the end of that sentence is, no.

Whatever the beginning of that sentence is, no.

:smallbiggrin:

This is both hilarious and accurate.

Glimbur
2008-10-09, 12:38 PM
Battle sorcerer makes you worse at casting spells in exchange for being a little better at combat. Dragon Disciple makes you better at combat but just adds some spell slots. It'd be a better idea to go into DD with mostly a full BAB class and just a dip to get the spont casting required, as your casting will be rather bad anyway.

It's a question of specialization: 1-5 you'll be a battle sorcerer, and after that you'll quickly drop even further behind the real casters in exchange for still not being as good as the melee at melee.

Starsinger
2008-10-09, 12:40 PM
No, Battle Sorcerers don't make selling all Sorcerers out to the path of Sorcerer = Dragon better. :smalltongue: I believe Saph started a thread which turned into a mini-guide on making Dragon Disciples better/useful. Not sure if that's exactly what you're after, but its a start.

JaxGaret
2008-10-09, 12:41 PM
There was this thread recently on the DD and entry classes: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93039

Weiser_Cain
2008-10-09, 12:51 PM
Hmm, Needs some Eldritch Knight.

Crow
2008-10-09, 12:59 PM
Dragon Disciple is not a caster class!

Weiser_Cain
2008-10-09, 01:05 PM
Yeah it's a transformation class. A cool way to become a halfdragon.

Jack Zander
2008-10-09, 01:09 PM
Wow thanks guys. I never would have guessed that these two classes combined were not as powerful as a straight sorcerer. Now that I have been enlightened I think I'll build a batman wizard instead. [/sarcasm]

What I'm asking is does this make a viable gish character? Would this character be able to hold his own in a melee fight (not against the hulking hurler) with a few supplemental spells or wands?

AstralFire
2008-10-09, 01:11 PM
Wow thanks guys. I never would have guessed that these two classes combined were not as powerful as a straight sorcerer. Now that I have been enlightened I think I'll build a batman wizard instead. [/sarcasm]

That's not what we said.


What I'm asking is does this make a viable gish character?

No.


Would this character be able to hold his own in a melee fight (not against the hulking hurler) with a few supplemental spells or wands?

If he was fighting a PHB-only Fighter/Pally/Monk, maybe. Or a low magic-item Barb too.

Jack Zander
2008-10-09, 01:16 PM
If he was fighting a PHB-only Fighter/Pally/Monk, maybe. Or a low magic-item Barb too.

That's all I needed to know. We usually play core only or will add very few supplements in. It won't be good for our current campaign which is using only monsters from MM 4 and 5, but I may try something like this sometime.

Starsinger
2008-10-09, 01:16 PM
Wow thanks guys. I never would have guessed that these two classes combined were not as powerful as a straight sorcerer. Now that I have been enlightened I think I'll build a batman wizard instead. [/sarcasm] Yes. I can see how that's what you got from what was said. [/Sarcasm] But in general, Dragon Disciple is a bad idea. If you want to make a gish you're almost universally better off just being a half-dragon Battle Sorcerer over including Dragon Disciple. Atleast IMO.


What I'm asking is does this make a viable gish character? Would this character be able to hold his own in a melee fight (not against the hulking hurler) with a few supplemental spells or wands?

No, not particularly viable gish. And yes, in the same way that Giacomo Monks are awesome when the fellow PCs buff them and you cross class UMD a bunch of buffs on yourself. Really the latter half of the question applies to just about anyone.

Weiser_Cain
2008-10-09, 01:17 PM
You'll need good gear. If you're willing to have a lot of defensive spells then you AC will be high as a kite. The DD STR bonus should even out your lower bab. I still like taking EK or better yet Spellsword.

AstralFire
2008-10-09, 01:18 PM
That's all I needed to know. We usually play core only or will add very few supplements in. It won't be good for our current campaign which is using only monsters from MM 4 and 5, but I may try something like this sometime.

In a core only campaign, Truenamer and Commoner are about the only classes you cannot get away with in relation to the Fighter and Monk.

monty
2008-10-09, 01:24 PM
In a core only campaign, Truenamer and Commoner are about the only classes you cannot get away with in relation to the Fighter and Monk.

In a core-only campaign, how are you playing a Truenamer?

AstralFire
2008-10-09, 01:29 PM
In a core-only campaign, how are you playing a Truenamer?

...

Well... uh... you see... apple cores have seeds. The seeds are named at time of conception. Truly well-named, in fact.

To be more precise, I meant "only allowing the PHB classes core and the supplement characters core+their sourcebook."

monty
2008-10-09, 01:33 PM
Anyway, I'm pretty sure warrior and aristocrat are also worse than fighter in combat.

AstralFire
2008-10-09, 01:35 PM
Anyway, I'm pretty sure warrior and aristocrat are also worse than fighter in combat.

Oh, yes. I think Sorc or B. Sorc 10/DD 10 will also probably end up worse than a core Fighter. But they all get close enough that I think you can say they'll keep up.

FMArthur
2008-10-09, 01:48 PM
...Unless you're talking Generic Warrior, who is far superior to Fighter. :D

Weiser_Cain
2008-10-09, 01:52 PM
Why don't you class hating guys go play 4e where every class is the same except for fluff?

Starsinger
2008-10-09, 01:55 PM
Why don't you class hating guys go play 4e where every class is the same except for fluff?

Careful, your ignorance is showing.

Weiser_Cain
2008-10-09, 01:57 PM
Careful, your ignorance is showing.

Willful ignorance.

Person_Man
2008-10-09, 02:01 PM
OK, so a viable Gish character needs the following:

A) Spells that scale upwards.
B) A source of bonus damage and/or effects for your attacks.
C) High enough defenses that you can stand near the front line of combat.

If A + B + C puts you roughly on par with the power level of your group, then you're fine. If not, you have trouble.

The classic Gish mistake is doing something like Fighter 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight X. Between ECL 3-8, you'll be one or two spell levels behind the other casters in your party. Your BAB is nerfed, so Power Attack isn't a viable option for bonus damage. Your AC and hit points will be mediorce at best, and you have no special defenses like Evasion, Mettle, Divine Grace, etc. And from ECL 9+, your prospects never really improve, because your base spells/BAB/etc are low.

What you propose doesn't meet any of those standards, unless you're playing with an exceptionally weak group. You'll seriously lag behind your friends, which can sometimes make the game less enjoyable (no sarcasm intended - some people just don't care about that stuff).

In general, your best strategy for building a Gish involves:

1) Losing as few caster levels as possible, and/or
2) Keeping BAB as close to 20/20 as possible, and/or
3) Finding some sort of weird combo (that can't be duplicated by wands or by just asking your fellow party members to cast Polymorph or whatever on you) or special attack that makes it all worth it.

For example, a Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight X only loses 2 caster levels, but gains 17/20 BAB and respectable defenses. A Hexblade 20 has mediocre spells, but with 20/20 BAB, solid defenses, and special attacks, he can be a solid Gish.

Adumbration
2008-10-09, 02:03 PM
Anyway, I'm pretty sure warrior and aristocrat are also worse than fighter in combat.
Aristocrat can actually make a decent mounted combat fighter at level one, with the extra cash. And warrior is not so bad. It's a full-BaB class, right?

>.>
<.<
>.<

Eldariel
2008-10-09, 02:04 PM
That's all I needed to know. We usually play core only or will add very few supplements in. It won't be good for our current campaign which is using only monsters from MM 4 and 5, but I may try something like this sometime.

It won't be as good as a straight Battle Sorcerer. Also, straight Battle Sorcerer won't be as good as a Sorcerer (in melee). Really, from core-classes, Eldritch Knight is the only decent class for Arcane Gishes (and it's rather bland as it has next to no class features).

Really, a Barbarian 20 will probably kick Battle Sorcerer 10/Dragon Disciple 10 all over the battlefield. A tripper Fighter 20 will likewise be able to do it (let alone a charger). Battle Sorcerer has very few spells known, meaning you'll either have some offense, some defense or some buffing, but never a good combination of them. And Dragon Disciple doesn't get you higher level spells or increase caster level, which basically weakens you in 3 ways - you can't metamagic your present spells, you don't get higher level spells and your spells do less and last a shorter time. In other words, Dragon Disciple is a class for pure melee or epic casters (and rather poor in both, although it has some merit for epic casters - pure melee usually gets bigger rewards from other places). And seriously, the Half-Dragon template may be a waste of 4 levels, but at least it doesn't waste 10 levels...

monty
2008-10-09, 02:09 PM
Aristocrat can actually make a decent mounted combat fighter at level one, with the extra cash. And warrior is not so bad. It's a full-BaB class, right?

>.>
<.<
>.<

Buying stuff is not a substitute for actual features (*coughJokermonkcough*). And I said warrior is worse than fighter. It is exactly like fighter, minus the bonus feats. Therefore, it is strictly worse.

Weiser_Cain
2008-10-09, 02:15 PM
What about the advantages of flight? That's one of the reason I picked up DD.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-09, 02:15 PM
Warriors also lack Craft as a class skill while only having a d8 HD. The discussion on Sorcerers getting bonus spells would probably help you a lot.

monty
2008-10-09, 02:17 PM
What about the advantages of flight? That's one of the reason I picked up DD.

Then play a Raptoran. You get flight sooner and don't have to take crappy class levels to get it.

AstralFire
2008-10-09, 02:25 PM
Willful ignorance.

Which is not any better when you start getting snippy.


What about the advantages of flight? That's one of the reason I picked up DD.

Hmm... 10 levels of a weird class and no caster progression or... pick up a few more levels and have spare 3rd level spells to throw around for Fly, not to mention some relatively cheap items for flight at level 15 (around the time you can finish DD)?

If everyone's naked, then sure, the DD is a kind of okay meleer, since it can fly... but the Fighter, Barb and Ranger will be slamming it with harder ranged attacks than it has.

Weiser_Cain
2008-10-09, 02:29 PM
Then play a Raptoran. You get flight sooner and don't have to take crappy class levels to get it.

They aren't cool. Coolness factors into a lot of my builds.

AstralFire
2008-10-09, 02:32 PM
They aren't cool. Coolness factors into a lot of my builds.

That's fine. Be cool. I play monks a lot. (Must suppress rage at the idea that anything draconic is 'cool'...)

If Jack Zander wanted to play a Dragon Disciple and had been talking about it tangentially, the conversation would have gone like this more likely:

JZ: Blah blah blah Dragon Disciple blah really awesome character concept.
AF: Blah blah blah query about DD suckitude and his knowledge of it blah.
JZ: Blah blah blah DD is cool, blah blah blah continue to talk about character concept.
AF: Blah blah blah just making sure you knew blah blah blah would agree character concept was cool except all dragons must die blah.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-09, 02:37 PM
What I'm asking is does this make a viable gish character? Would this character be able to hold his own in a melee fight (not against the hulking hurler) with a few supplemental spells or wands?

With broken spells like Wraithstrike sure. Without cheese? Nope.

Person_Man
2008-10-09, 02:39 PM
What about the advantages of flight? That's one of the reason I picked up DD.

The advantage of flight is that you can avoid enemies without flight. A very helpful advantage, which you can get with spells, a companion, Dragonborn, Raptorian, etc.

But flight is tricky. If you fly and avoid melee combat most of the time, the DM will just end up negating it with flying enemies, ranged enemies, and/or low ceilings most of the time. Otherwise, you'll never be challenged. Instead, its better to have flight as an option (via a spell or whatnot) for when you really need it. Or I suppose you could just choose not to fly most of the time for some sort of roleplaying reason. Regardless, its not really a reason to take so many levels of a prestige class, when its easily available via wands and other items.

monty
2008-10-09, 03:00 PM
They aren't cool. Coolness factors into a lot of my builds.

Wait...giant bird-man isn't cool?

Also, footbows. Foot. Bows.

Eldariel
2008-10-09, 03:12 PM
They aren't cool. Coolness factors into a lot of my builds.

Be Dragonborn then. They fly too and can have any base race, just like Dragon Disciple. In fact, sans the fluff, Dragonborn is exactly what Half-Dragon should've always been. No LA dragon-version of some PC with Draconic abilities replacing the native abilities of the race.

Crow
2008-10-09, 04:28 PM
What about the advantages of flight? That's one of the reason I picked up DD.

As a sorcerer, you can get spells or use scrolls that allow flight.

DD is not as bad a class as everyone says. If you compare it with a straight caster, it is going to suck. Actually, most DMG PrC's are going to suck compared to those available in splatbooks. Any non-caster will suck compared to a straight caster. DD is a transformation class, for those who are interested in that sort of thing.

It does not make a viable gish, but really not much does in core, aside from a cleric. If you're interested in exploring your draconic side and are interested in being a melee combatant with some special tricks, then it's not that bad. If you're looking to be more of a caster, it's not that great.

Battle Sorcerer itself is a failry solid class if you want to be a gish. Don't let everyone compare it to batman or a regular sorcerer because it's always going to fall short. The focus of the class is different. You're not supposed to be as powerful as a wizard or regular sorcerer. Even ToB classes fall short of the fullcasters.

The battle sorcerer is fun, somewhat versatile, and easy. If you are a player who absolutely must have every ounce of power you can possibly squeeze out of build, because that is the focus of the game and you can't have fun any other way, then you'll want something else. For most games that don't take place on message boards where batman, and the council of 100's of sourcebooks rule, it will be just fine.

AstralFire
2008-10-09, 04:32 PM
=\

I object to Battle Sorcerer being a gish of any real, appreciable sort. Not out of power, but simply because to me, a gish is someone who is casting and fighting at the same time. The Bard is a gish in my head, since he is actually using his magic (music) at the same time as fighting.

The Battle Sorcerer is just a Sorcerer with a higher hit die and more BAB. It just seems... boring. You'll never have enough feats (unless you blow everything you've got) to do the cool combat maneuvers, and you are lesser at spells - speaking thematically here, not power wise. The Bard circumvents that for me because it has something that it owns and no one can take its music away. Bard isn't as good as Wizard, but it is a musical madman. It has some coherency to its design.

I don't really consider an EK a gish either. I guess I'm using the word different from everyone else. But I would play a DD before I'd play a Battle Sorc these days.

Eldariel
2008-10-09, 04:35 PM
The battle sorcerer is fun, somewhat versatile, and easy. If you are a player who absolutely must have every ounce of power you can possibly squeeze out of build, because that is the focus of the game and you can't have fun any other way, then you'll want something else. For most games that don't take place on message boards where batman, and the council of 100's of sourcebooks rule, it will be just fine.

My problem with Battle Sorcerer is really just that they know so few spells they generally can't have even one spell for every purpose they'd like to. That is, they have to give up some really, really good spells just 'cause you have no room for them (and you generally can't even fit thematic spells simply because there are essentials like Fly, Mage Armor and Mirror Image you pretty much have to learn).

Fax Celestis
2008-10-09, 04:36 PM
The Battle Sorcerer is just a Sorcerer with a higher hit die and more BAB. It just seems... boring.

Common misconception is that a Battle Sorceror's primary purpose is to sling spells. It is not. The Battle Sorceror is a fighter with a slightly lower BAB, less feats, and a bag of magical tricks. Alternatively, it's a Bard without Bardic Music but a broader spell list--one potentially better able to be self-buff/combat centric.

Temp.
2008-10-09, 04:43 PM
One of my players ran a straght Battle Sorcerer alongside some other gishes, it worked out alright*--there are plenty of strong buffs available once you pull Spell Compendium and the PHB2 into the mix.

The other characters went along the lines of Egoist/Slayer/Warblade, Daggerspell Mage and Spellsword/Abjurant Champion--they weren't the best builds, but they weren't the worst either. The Battle Sorcerer fit right in with the rest of them. The only one to stand out was the Daggerspell Mage, who was outright underpowered.

Adding Dragon Disciple to it would just be ugly, though. Don't do it. In fact, don't do Dragon Disciple at all.

*This isn't to say I support the use of that ungodly Variant class, but I do tolerate it--it's at or above the power level of a Psychic Warrior or Warblade.

[edit:]If you do use Battle Sorcerer, you'll be obligated to take it straight-classed; without swapping lower-level spells, you'll be repeating spell effects on your already-tiny "spells known" list.

AstralFire
2008-10-09, 04:44 PM
Common misconception is that a Battle Sorceror's primary purpose is to sling spells. It is not. The Battle Sorceror is a fighter with a slightly lower BAB, less feats, and a bag of magical tricks. Alternatively, it's a Bard without Bardic Music but a broader spell list--one potentially better able to be self-buff/combat centric.

In other words, a sorcerer with less tricks - a class that I already am not a huge fan of, with something of a slapdash fix to go "hey, we have a gish." I dislike it because it's a lazy modification to a type of class (caster) that doesn't handle lazy mods very well. It's bad design. Like, inelegant design. I don't like that, it bothers me more than actual issues of power.

Like I said, I prefer the Bard or even the DD.

Deadmeat.GW
2008-10-09, 05:03 PM
I would say a Dragon Disciple is good for fun and for campaigns where cash and magical items are rare as hens teeth.

I have run through some games where at lvl 12 I had a total net value on my character of 4500 gold in kit and 450 gold pieces in various coins.
That included my master crafted chain mail...which I started with and my +1 dagger and silvered longsword.

At level 12...

In a campaign like that having stat boosts is well worth it unless you are a full caster and even spell casters were not having a good time of it either.

No free spells for Wizards without in-game time spend on research for instance, your wizard had to research every single one of his spells or learn them from scrolls.

JaxGaret
2008-10-09, 06:03 PM
DD is not as bad a class as everyone says.

Yes, it is. It's really not good at anything. Is it terrible? No. But it's definitely below-average.


If you compare it with a straight caster, it is going to suck.

And if you compare a DD build to a straight non-caster build at the same optimization level, it's also going to be comparatively worse.

So it's not better than a caster, and it's not better than a non-caster...


It does not make a viable gish, but really not much does in core, aside from a cleric.

Or a Druid once it gets Wild Shape.


Battle Sorcerer itself is a failry solid class if you want to be a gish.

It's really not bad, since it's still a full caster, it's just not as good as a base Sorcerer or a real gish. A BSorc15/AbjurantChampion5 is my usual suggestion for someone new to the game who wants to play a gish. It's simple and effective.

Crow
2008-10-09, 07:54 PM
Yes, it is. It's really not good at anything. Is it terrible? No. But it's definitely below-average.

Yes, but everyone says it's terrible.


And if you compare a DD build to a straight non-caster build at the same optimization level, it's also going to be comparatively worse.

It's a transformation class. There aren't many of them. Really the only adequet comparison would be another transformation class. Also, it's the only transformation class in core.


So it's not better than a caster, and it's not better than a non-caster...

Who cares? You're doing it to become some sort of half-dragon. It is a nice twist for a Barbarian if he wants to take a level of bard or sorcerer to get in.


Or a Druid once it gets Wild Shape.

Duh, of course.


It's really not bad, since it's still a full caster, it's just not as good as a base Sorcerer or a real gish. A BSorc15/AbjurantChampion5 is my usual suggestion for someone new to the game who wants to play a gish. It's simple and effective.

Not every DM allows Abjurant Champion. Amazing as it may sound. I don't think I ever claimed that BS made a great gish, just a servicable and easy one.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-09, 07:58 PM
It's a transformation class. There aren't many of them. Really the only adequet comparison would be another transformation class. Also, it's the only transformation class in core..

Come on, even the Green Star Adept is a better Transformation class (I would never finish it due to Con loss, but a good 6-7 level dip).

Fax Celestis
2008-10-09, 08:02 PM
It's a transformation class. There aren't many of them. Really the only adequet comparison would be another transformation class. Also, it's the only transformation class in core.

Then, uh, let's compare it to other transformation classes. Even the (largely accepted as a total rip-off) Green Star Adept is better than the Dragon Disciple. Alienist is hella better. Earth Dreamer...well, I haven't really looked at. Acolyte of the Skin's much better. Psion Uncarnate is WORLDS better.

Crow
2008-10-09, 08:07 PM
That's great if your DM is allowing everything, or if your group has access to it. Some groups can't afford every splatbook out there. If you're playing core, it's all you've got, and it isn't actually all that bad.

It can pump up a fighter somewhat, and a barbarian doesn't end up all that far behind, but has some neat perks afterwards.

monty
2008-10-09, 09:40 PM
If you really want to be a half-dragon, just use the template. You're trading three HD for seven levels of not sucking.

JaxGaret
2008-10-09, 11:07 PM
Yes, but everyone says it's terrible.

No, they don't.


Who cares? You're doing it to become some sort of half-dragon. It is a nice twist for a Barbarian if he wants to take a level of bard or sorcerer to get in.

Which is why in my first post I stated that it is a "flavor" PrC rather than a "power" PrC.


Not every DM allows Abjurant Champion.

Irrelevant.


I don't think I ever claimed that BS made a great gish, just a servicable and easy one.

And I never said that that was what you claimed.

Enlong
2008-10-09, 11:35 PM
Dragon Shaman anyone? It's flavorfully similar to the Dragon Disciple, 'cept it's a base class, and you get wings, a breath weapon, a dragon totem to Commune with and a Lay-on-hands like healing touch. So much fun, and flavorful, too. Only problem is, it's not a casting class, but it's magical enough for a half front-lines, half support character.

JaxGaret
2008-10-09, 11:36 PM
There's also the Dragonfire Adept, which is like a draconic Warlock with a breath weapon in place of Eldritch Blast.

They're pretty neat.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-09, 11:37 PM
If you're wanting to turn into a dragon, in-character, just go Dragonborn and take the breath weapon spells.

Crow
2008-10-09, 11:40 PM
No, they don't.

My bad. A lot of people say it's terrible.


Irrelevant.

Only if you have all the books and your DM lets anything in. I tend to judge a class by it's own merits and try to avoid comparing it too much to other classes, especially when we start talking about outside core. Philosophical difference. Probably why I've never had a problem playing fighters and monks.


And I never said that that was what you claimed.

My mistake. I get so used to the common battle sorcerer retort of "That class sucks! Use Abjurant Champion!", that it's hard to not automatically go on the defensive. I apologize.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-09, 11:43 PM
My mistake. I get so used to the common battle sorcerer retort of "That class sucks! Use Abjurant Champion!", that it's hard to not automatically go on the defensive. I apologize.The thing is that almost every Gish class is better. There are a lot of ways to keep the same flavor with much better mechanics.

JaxGaret
2008-10-10, 12:06 AM
My bad. A lot of people say it's terrible.

Yes, many do.


Only if you have all the books and your DM lets anything in.

I find the Abjurant Champion to be well balanced, so a DM who limits player access to classes would IMO be in the right to allow it.


I tend to judge a class by it's own merits and try to avoid comparing it too much to other classes, especially when we start talking about outside core.

How do you judge a class by its own merits without comparing it to other classes? There is no judgment to make if you look at a class in a vacuum, no way to say whether or not it is allowable or not, if you are making the decision of whether or not to allow it.


Philosophical difference.

What would that be?


My mistake. I get so used to the common battle sorcerer retort of "That class sucks! Use Abjurant Champion!", that it's hard to not automatically go on the defensive. I apologize.

It's okay, thanks for the apology.

Weiser_Cain
2008-10-10, 12:13 AM
How do you judge a class by its own merits without comparing it to other classes?

Here's how I do it.
Is it fun?
Does it match my character concept?
Do I have a hard time in battle?
Do I die outright?
Is it still fun?

Crow
2008-10-10, 12:35 AM
Here's how I do it.
Is it fun?
Does it match my character concept?
Do I have a hard time in battle?
Do I die outright?
Is it still fun?

That's about how I do it. I don't compare the class to other classes, but against the challenges that I'll be most likely to be coming up against in a real game.

As for the Abjurant Champion, I've heard of it being disallowed often on other boards because it is one of those classes where there is almost no reason NOT to take it.

Leon
2008-10-10, 01:35 AM
Does the battle sorcerer variant make the Dragon Disciple worth it?

No, Both are good in their own aspects but not together.
if you want a DD a Duskblade is the fastest way into it i think

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-10, 01:54 AM
The only problem with AC is that Battle Sorcerers already have a really limited spell selection, so Shield may not be the best choice of level 1 spell for that class. Also, looking at the save progression, someone taking the class would probably end up with really high Will saves and really rubbish Fortitude and Reflex saves, which may be a bad thing (admittedly, the increased BAB is good). If you wanted a draconic race with flight, changing Dragonborns so that they aren't Bahamut's servants while replacing their anti-dragon bonuses with something more general could be a good idea.

Tokiko Mima
2008-10-10, 01:55 AM
I'll see your Battle Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple.... and raise it an arcane variant Swordsage!

Muahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha ! :smallbiggrin:

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-10, 02:04 AM
How does that variant work, Tokiko? I heard it was prertty much the most broken thing ever.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-10, 02:07 AM
How does that variant work, Tokiko? I heard it was prertty much the most broken thing ever.It doesn't.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-10, 02:14 AM
I meant what did it do? I recall someone mentioning that it used Arcane spells as though they were maneuvers, but I'm not sure about how much choice they get as far as spells go (admittedly, the idea in itself sounds overpowered).

Tokiko Mima
2008-10-10, 02:27 AM
I meant what did it do? I recall someone mentioning that it used Arcane spells as though they were maneuvers, but I'm not sure about how much choice they get as far as spells go (admittedly, the idea in itself sounds overpowered).

You use arcane spells (from the abjuration, evocation, and transmutation schools it says) like they were manuevers, meaning you can refresh even your highest tier spell with a full round action (or ALL your spells courtesy of the Adaptive Style feat.) So, if you wanted to Timestop forever, arcane variant Swordsage could easily do as they'd never run out of 9th level spells.

It is one of the most terribly balanced ideas I have ever seen, and it just amused me to counterbalance 'brokenly awesome' with 'functional but very weak.'

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-10, 02:29 AM
Thanks for explaining. Time Stop would be dangerous if combined with Delayed Blast Fireballs.

Tokiko Mima
2008-10-10, 02:35 AM
Thanks for explaining. Time Stop would be dangerous if combined with Delayed Blast Fireballs.

Especially a nearly infinity amount of those.

I did think it would be a fun campaign to have to track down and kill an BBEG gnomish arcane swordsage whose gotten ahold of Killer Gnome shadow miracles as a manuever and gone on an insane quest to destroy death by ressurecting all the dead with his infinite supply of free cheap True Ressurections. :smallbiggrin:

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-10, 02:38 AM
How wpuld that work? I'm not sure how it would due to Shadow Miracle being an Illusion spell (unless there's a feat which would let you learn in as an Abjuration, Evocation or Transmutation spell somehow).

Tokiko Mima
2008-10-10, 02:44 AM
How wpuld that work? I'm not sure how it would due to Shadow Miracle being an Illusion spell (unless there's a feat which would let you learn in as an Abjuration, Evocation or Transmutation spell somehow).

Haven't really worked it out myself, but I'm positive that there's a Dragon magazine Bloodline feat that grants illusion spells known. Mostly I like the idea of an insane gnome swordsage wandering graveyards and waking people up literally.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-10, 02:46 AM
[That would be an interresting quest. I only know about the Bloodline feats which are on Crystal Keep (they wouldn't be useful here anyway due to Sword Sages not getting familiars).

Eldariel
2008-10-10, 02:56 AM
Mystic Swordsage does have an Arcane casterlevel and qualify for Obtain Familiar though...