Confused about a rule

[Kelkel]

Forgive me but im not too great with all the DnD rules, so I have a quick question.

If your making an NPC or character using the Hill Giant race and it says they begin with "12 levels of hill giant..." is that added to the LA, or included in the LA? (would the LA be +4 or +16?)

Thanks in advance!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

LA doesn't matter for NPCs, only PCs. NPCs use CR.

In the case of a PC, Effective Character Level is Class Level+Hit Dice+Level Adjustment.

[Rei_Jin]

If it's a PC, then a Level 1 Hill Giant is the Equivilent of a level 17 character (+4 Level Adjustment and 12 Racial Hit Dice).

If it's an opponent, then it is a CR7 without any extra hit dice or levels.

If it's an NPC, then it depends on whether its a friend or foe as to whether it would be level 17, or a CR7

[bosssmiley]

The "12 level of Giant" is the source of the racial HD the giant has, the +4LA are (IIRC) the cost of his large size, rock-throwing ability and stat mods.

Of course, this gives you a boggo Hill Giant (CR7) as a 16th level character (12 crappy Giant levels + 4LA = ECL16). You can see how b0rked the Racial HD + LA system is at a glance: it's saying that CR7 = CR16. Pure nonsense on stilts. :smallannoyed:

[KillianHawkeye]

Of course, this gives you a boggo Hill Giant (CR7) as a 16th level character (12 crappy Giant levels + 4LA = ECL16). You can see how b0rked the Racial HD + LA system is at a glance: it's saying that CR7 = CR16. Pure nonsense on stilts. :smallannoyed:

The whole idea behind Level Adjustments is to account for the difference between the creature's abilities being used against the party in one encounter vs the creature's abilities being used for the party all day every day. So in this case, they're saying that it is much more powerful to BE a giant compared to the challenge of fighting one.

I'm not saying it works, but that's the idea behind it. It kinda makes sense, but it's obvious that they didn't do it right. Or rather, since the base classes available to PCs are so unbalanced, it was impossible to do it right. :smallbiggrin:

[mangosta71]

A lot of the LA stuff is just silly. I mean, a 15 drow wizard is just as powerful as a 17 high elf wizard? Yeah, the ability to cast a couple level 1 spells really makes up for 2 class levels' worth of spells.

[Spiryt]

A lot of the LA stuff is just silly. I mean, a 15 drow wizard is just as powerful as a 17 high elf wizard? Yeah, the ability to cast a couple level 1 spells really makes up for 2 class levels' worth of spells.

Actually, spell resistance, two stat bonuses and bonus to Will save aren't exaclty nothing. Probably still not worth two levels, indeed.

[monty]

A lot of the LA stuff is just silly. I mean, a 15 drow wizard is just as powerful as a 17 high elf wizard? Yeah, the ability to cast a couple level 1 spells really makes up for 2 class levels' worth of spells.

That's hardly a fair comparison, since the wizard's power curve scales exponentially. Because of that, LA for casters is almost always a bad idea (unless you're playing Gestalt).

Take, say, a Drow fighter and an Elf fighter. They'll be much more comparable.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

A lot of the LA stuff is just silly. I mean, a 15 drow wizard is just as powerful as a 17 high elf wizard? Yeah, the ability to cast a couple level 1 spells really makes up for 2 class levels' worth of spells.
The drow's abilities make a difference starting out. But not so much at high levels. Which is why the LA buyoff (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedRaces.html) rules were introduced in Unearthed Arcana.

Really I think the problem isn't with LA itself so much as how it is assigned. A lot of creatures seem to have too much LA. And sometimes the Level Adjustment doesn't take into account that racial hit dice are vastly inferior to class hit dice, especially with regards to high hit die creatures.

[TheCountAlucard]

That's hardly a fair comparison, since the wizard's power curve scales exponentially. Because of that, LA for casters is almost always a bad idea (unless you're playing Gestalt).

Take, say, a Drow fighter and an Elf fighter. They'll be much more comparable.

Even with fighters, it's still a hit-or-miss thing. The stat bonuses, for instance, are minor enough that one could simply be more effective by rolling better, and most of the other stuff is fairly minor.

[Skjaldbakka]

Drow SR alone is worth more than two levels of fighter at high level. At low level, the difference in HP from having 1 HD instead of 3 matters, but at ECL 17, a 15th level fighter with SR 26 is quite possibly better than a level 17 fighter with all other things being equal. There are a lot of monstrous SLA's that will have a hard time breaking SR of 11+HD, especially if you have LA buyoff as an option.

Generally speaking, the stronger the class, the more you don't want LA. but fighter, seriously? Not much reason to stick with fighter past Greater Weapon Spec (and that is dubious).

[Starbuck_II]

Drow SR alone is worth more than two levels of fighter at high level. At low level, the difference in HP from having 1 HD instead of 3 matters, but at ECL 17, a 15th level fighter with SR 26 is quite possibly better than a level 17 fighter with all other things being equal. There are a lot of monstrous SLA's that will have a hard time breaking SR of 11+HD, especially if you have LA buyoff as an option.

Generally speaking, the stronger the class, the more you don't want LA. but fighter, seriously? Not much reason to stick with fighter past Greater Weapon Spec (and that is dubious).

Doesn't it make harder ro heal you...so it is also a disadvanage.

[kjones]

Doesn't it make harder ro heal you...so it is also a disadvanage.

Only if you cast a lot of healing spells in combat.


A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

Though I imagine this might make certain aspects of buffing obnoxious, to say the least.

[nargbop]

DnD makes some creatures basically inacessible to players; after all, it's designed for a bunch of basically human people to go kill monsters. It's a thematic thing. If you want to bargain with your DM to play a high effective character level character, go ahead, but beware that it unbalances the system carefully set up by the publishers. I wouldn't mind playing as a Tulani and throwing Meteor Swarms at will... but it wouldn't be fun for very long because I'd be smashing every bad guy with ease.
Most giants are excluded from being played because of high HD. Players are discouraged from playing vampires because of the +10 (!) level adjustment.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

DnD makes some creatures basically inacessible to players; after all, it's designed for a bunch of basically human people to go kill monsters. It's a thematic thing. If you want to bargain with your DM to play a high effective character level character, go ahead, but beware that it unbalances the system carefully set up by the publishers. I wouldn't mind playing as a Tulani and throwing Meteor Swarms at will... but it wouldn't be fun for very long because I'd be smashing every bad guy with ease.
Most giants are excluded from being played because of high HD. Players are discouraged from playing vampires because of the +10 (!) level adjustment.Yes, because the PHB races are so balanced. There's a difference between powerful races and overpowered races, and WotC seems to think anything that's not a human with funny ears is too good for players.

[monty]

Players are discouraged from playing vampires because of the +10 (!) level adjustment.

+8, but still...