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View Full Version : Revised Ninja (Taking Ninjutsu Contributions) [3.5, Base Class, PEACH]



afroakuma
2008-10-18, 09:54 AM
The debate drew my attention - judge my fix. I'll follow through with jutsus if the overall concept is considered solid.

Round Two

For your approval,

The Ninja
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Ninjutsu


1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Honed mind, Weapon Finesse, always ready, trapfinding

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Evasion

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|Uncanny dodge|
1

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Evasive rush|
2

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Evasive reflexes, muted presence, honed mind +1, always ready +2

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|Improved uncanny dodge, mute breath|
3

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+5|Sniper

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+6|
+6|Hide in plain sight|
4

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+6|Improved evasion, uncanny movement

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+7|Faint presence 5%, honed mind +2, always ready +3|
5

11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+7|
+7|Improved muted presence

12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+8|Shadow rush|
6

13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+8|Master uncanny dodge

14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+9|
+9||
7

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+9|
+9|Fatal Rush, faint presence 10%, honed mind +3, always ready +4

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+10||
8

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+10|Greater muted presence

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+11||
9

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+11|Dead breath

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+12|Master evasion, faint presence 15%, honed mind +4, always ready +5|
10[/table]

Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex). Skill points: (6+Int mod) x 4 at first level, 6+Int mod each level thereafter.

Hit Die: d6

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ninjas are proficient with all simple weapons, any four martial weapons and any two exotic weapons. Ninjas are not proficient with any armor or shield.

Trapfinding As rogue.

Weapon Finesse The ninja gets this bonus feat at 1st level.

Always Ready (Ex) A ninja is ever vigilant. She gains a +1 insight bonus to her initiative at 1st level. This bonus increases by +1 every five levels thereafter.

Honed Mind (Ex) The ninja adds her Wisdom bonus, if any, to her AC while unencumbered. At 5th level and every five levels thereafter, the ninja adds an additional +1 bonus to AC. This does not stack with a monk's Wisdom bonus to AC. She loses this bonus whenever immobilized or helpless, or when wearing armor or using a shield.

Evasion (Ex) As monk.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex) As rogue.

Ninjutsu At third level, a ninja begins to deploy her secret arts. Ninjutsu techniques are passed from master to apprentice, learned through tryst with beings of shadow, acquired through intense training or through schooling. A ninja may pick any jutsu for which she has the preceding jutsu in its family. Alternately, she may select the same jutsu again to acquire another daily use. A ninja without any jutsus in a family may only select the base jutsu of that family.

Evasive Rush (Ex) At 4th level, the ninja's stealthy movement style adds evasiveness to her fast movement. While charging or running, the ninja is treated as being one size category smaller. This includes attack rolls made at the end of a charge, but does not include grappling, overrun or bull rush attempts made by the ninja. In short, the ninja gains all of the benefits of the lower size category and none of the drawbacks.

Muted Presence (Su) At 5th level, the ninja acquires a supernatural ability to avoid detection. Casters trying to employ a 3rd level or lower divination spell against a ninja must succeed on a caster level check (DC 10 plus the ninja's class level) or have the spell fail. At 11th level, the ninja mutes divination spells of 6th level or lower, and at 17th level she mutes all divination spells of 9th level or lower.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex) As rogue.

Mute Breath (Su) At 6th level the ninja can speak silently to her allies and foes. Without so much as moving her lips, the ninja may employ a one-way message effect to any creature within 100 ft. This message is blocked only by airtight separation - lead, metal and magical silence will not stop the recipient from hearing the message, although a magical barrier around the ninja will stop the breath from escaping. The ninja may use this ability as long as she can breathe.

Sniper (Ex) At 7th level, a ninja becomes more practiced at the art of striking from the shadows. The ninja gains a bonus equal to her level on Hide checks made to stay hidden after making a ranged attack from hiding, and may Hide as an immediate action. This allows the ninja to strike, move and hide, or to make a full attack and hide.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) While in a crowd, in fog, snow, rain or anything less than bright illumination, a ninja of 8th level or higher may use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Improved Evasion (Ex) As monk.

Uncanny Movement (Su) At 9th level, the ninja acquires a preternatural climbing skill. She may spider climb at will without time limitation.

Faint Presence (Su) At 10th level, a ninja's skill at remaining hidden, combined with her link to the powers of Shadow, serves to make her more difficult to strike. She gains a permanent 5% concealment, which stacks with effects such as blur and displacement, as well as with total concealment. At 15th level, this increases to 10%, and at 20th level becomes 15%. This concealment is due to having a shadowy, insubstantial body, and so does not count as concealment for the purposes of Hide checks.

Shadow Rush (Ex) At 12th level, the ninja is a blur while moving fast. While charging or running, the ninja is treated as being under the effect of a blur spell. This effect allows neither a saving throw nor spell resistance, and cannot be penetrated by see invisibility or even true seeing. A shadow rush negates the penalty to hide while attacking, running etc. The effect ends with the ninja's turn.

Master Uncanny Dodge (Ex) At 13th level, a ninja acquires impossible reflexes. Three times per day, she may add a +5 dodge bonus to either her AC or her Reflex saves for one round. She may declare this ability as a free action in response to an attack or effect, if she so chooses.

Fatal Rush (Ex) At 15th level, the ninja may pounce on a foe after charging. She may make a full attack at the end of a charge if desired.

Dead Breath (Ex) At 19th level, the ninja may take 20 on any Move Silently check.

Master Evasion (Ex) Once per day, when a ninja would be allowed a Reflex save for partial damage, she may elect to avoid the effect altogether.

Talya
2008-10-18, 10:00 AM
You forgot to include the Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu.

Fortunately, no matter what abilities you give them, they won't nullify the pirate ability, "Immunity to Ninjas."

sleepy
2008-10-18, 10:03 AM
hide in plain sight doesn't appear on the progression table. I'm guessing it belongs at level 14. "As ranger" including natural terrain only?

Does permanent concealment have any potential abuseable interactions with hide checks or sudden strike?

What/where are the ninjutsu abilities?

afroakuma
2008-10-18, 10:10 AM
Ninjutsu

Ninjas use special techniques known as ninjutsu, some of which are practiced maneuvers, while others are supernatural effects drawn from the power of the Plane of Shadow. Where a jutsu would emulate a particular spell, treat that effect as the appropriate spell at its lowest printed caster level. A ninja uses Wisdom for all supernatural effects except where otherwise noted. The ninja's caster level is equal to her class level.

When a ninja learns the highest jutsu of a ninjutsu family, she may immediately elect to learn a new base jutsu from any other family.

Jutsus are divided into four classes:

Personal Ninjutsu are a fundamental power the ninja acquires. These are extraordinary abilities unless otherwise noted.

Martial Ninjutsu are complex physical arts, relying on no special power. These are all extraordinary abilities.

Energy Ninjutsu call or focus a form of energy, such as is needed for a conjuration or an evocation. These are supernatural abilities except where noted.

Shadow Ninjutsu draw from or employ the Plane of Shadow. Some of them only work while on a coexistant plane; others siphon Shadow power and can be employed nearly anywhere. These are all supernatural abilities.

A jutsu always requires a standard action and one free hand to perform, unless it is constant or noted otherwise. If the jutsu takes more or less time to use, a Speed listing will be present in its info block.

Jutsus are either usable a certain number of times per day or are active constantly; this latter is usually the case for Personal Ninjutsu.

Selecting Ninjutsu
When a ninja acquires a new jutsu, she may choose from any ninjutsu family. The ninja may only acquire the lowest jutsu in a family initially; she may subsequently choose the next highest jutsu in that family. A ninja may also select any jutsu she already knows with daily uses (some exceptions apply for Constant use, and are noted). Doing so allows the ninja to increase the number of daily uses of that jutsu. At will jutsus cannot be selected multiple times.

Ninjutsu Family: Fire Element

Ki Flame
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Fire Element 1
Use: 2/day
Speed: Free action

As the spell produce flame. The ninja may add the fire damage to an unarmed strike; doing so expends one minute of duration as the melee attack would.

Phoenix Spread
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Fire Element 2
Use: 2/day

As the spell burning hands only damage is in d6 instead of d4. Add the ninja's Wis bonus to total damage.

Eyes of Warmth
Personal Ninjutsu
Family: Fire Element 3
Use: Constant

The ninja gains darkvision 120 ft. and sees thermally.

Chains of Flame
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Fire Element 4
Use: 2/day

As the spell scorching ray only damage is in d8 instead of d6. The ninja adds her Wis bonus to the ranged attack rolls.

Art of Flames Dancing
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Fire Element
Use: 1/day
Speed: Full action

As the spell summon monster V used to summon a Medium fire elemental. The ninja gains immunity to fire for the duration of the ninjutsu, and the fire elemental can move freely through her square. The fire elemental cannot move more than 30 ft. from the ninja. A 12th level ninja may instead summon a Large fire elemental, and a 15th level ninja may summon a Huge fire elemental.

Ninjutsu Family: Shadow Touch

Shadow Fade
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Shadow Hand 1
Use: 3/day
Speed: Free action

The ninja emits a film of Shadow over her weapon, causing it to fade out slightly. Difficulty seeing the weapon denies the foe its Dex bonus to AC. Shadow Fade lasts for the entire round.

Shadow Guise
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Shadow Hand 2
Use: 3/day
Speed: Full action

The ninja passes her hand over her face, covering herself with a film of Shadow. This replicates a disguise self spell and imparts a +2 circumstance bonus to the ninja's AC for the duration.

Shadow Knife Hand
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Shadow Hand 3
Use: 2/day

The ninja makes a melee touch attack, stabbing a Shadow-powered hand into her foe. This attack is made using an unarmed strike. When choosing this ninjutsu, the ninja must select an ability score to affect. The melee attack deals 1d8 temporary damage to that ability score (1d4 damage if Con is selected). Multiple selections of Shadow Knife Hand can either add more uses to the current type or grant two new uses against a second ability.

Shadow Arms
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Shadow Hand 4
Use: 2/day

The ninja makes a ranged touch attack to start a grapple with two arms of Shadow. The arms are treated as a Large creature, and their strength score is equivalent to the ninja's Str +20. If successful in grappling, the ninja may take other actions while the grapple continues. Each round the arms maintain their grapple, they do 2d6+Str bonus bludgeoning damage to the grappled foe. If the grapple fails at any time, the arms vanish. Being made of Shadow, the arms can only be seen using see invisibility or equivalent, and are immune to attack spells, though dispel magic can remove them. The maximum range of this ability is 60 ft. and the maximum duration is 1 round/level. This ability is the equivalent of a 6th level spell.

Shadow Shove
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Shadow Hand 5
Use: 1/day

The ninja makes a melee touch attack, pushing with a Shadow-powered hand against her foe. On a success, the ninja and her foe make opposed Str checks. The ninja adds her Wis bonus, and her foe takes a -4 penalty. If the opponent loses the Str check, it is pushed bodily into the Plane of Shadow (or to a point one mile away if on another plane) for 1 minute. If the ninja has employed Shadow Arms against the foe, she does not need to make a melee touch attack. Instead, she may use the arms' Strength score for the Str check. If she does, the arms continue their grapple on the Plane of Shadow.

Ninjutsu Family: Snake Fang

Art of Cobras
Martial Ninjutsu
Family: Snake Fang 1
Use: Constant

The ninja is not at risk when using poisons. Increase the save DC of the ninja's poisons by 2. The ninja may make a Craft (alchemy) check (DC equal to save DC of poison) to separate a dose into two working doses. On a failure, the original dose remains potent, but cannot be experimented with again.

Serpent's Venom
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Snake Fang 2
Use: Constant

The ninja increases primary poison damage by 1 and secondary poison damage by 2 on her poisoned attacks. Secondary damage takes effect in 30 seconds (5 rounds) instead of one minute.

Deep Fang
Martial Ninjutsu
Family: Snake Fang 3
Use: 3/day

Wounds dealt by the ninja's slashing and piercing weapons this round continue bleeding, dealing 1 temporary Con damage. Creatures immune to critical hits are unaffected.

Lethal Cloud
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Snake Fang 4
Use: 3/day

The ninja may keep within her mouth an inhaled or contact poison, which she may exhale in a 15 ft. cone. This poison remains in affected squares for one minute before dissipating. The ninja cannot be harmed by the poison while it is in her mouth, but could be harmed if she enters the lingering cloud. Creatures within the cloud may make a Reflex save (DC 10 + BAB + ninja's Con mod) to leap 5' out of the area. Moderate winds may dispel the cloud.

Cobra Hand
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Snake Fang 5
Use: 3/day
Speed: Swift action

The ninja conjures a toxic acid, which transforms her hand into a cobra's head. This magical weapon strikes with a melee touch attack at a +5 bonus. Creatures struck by the cobra take 3d6 + the ninja's Con bonus in acid damage, and must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 ninja class level + ninja's Con bonus) against the cobra's poison, which deals 1d6 primary ability damage and 1d8 secondary ability damage. The cobra head vanishes at the end of the ninja's turn. When selecting this jutsu, the ninja chooses Str, Dex, Int or Wis for the poison's effect. The ninja may elect for a different poison on subsequent selections or take more uses of the same one.

Ninjutsu Family: Air Element

Gale Shield
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Air Element 1
Use: 2/day

As the spell wind wall.

Ki Squall
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Air Element 2
Use: 1/day
Speed: Immediate action

As the spell gust of wind.

Hawk's Winds
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Air Element 3
Use: 3/day
Speed: Free action

A ranged weapon used by the ninja is propelled by a powerful wind to the target. The added force adds five damage to the attack and guarantees a critical on a successful hit. In moderate or stronger winds (including passing through the other side of a wind wall, the weapon deals an additional 5 damage. Creatures immune to critical hits will not be affected by the guaranteed critical.

Ki Gale Blast
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Air Element 4
Use: 1/day
Speed: Immediate action

As the spell gust of wind, except all size categories are affected as the next lower category, and saves against the blast are made at a -6 penalty.

Art of Wind Command
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Air Element 5
Use: 1/day
Speed: Immediate action

As the spells control winds and air walk. The ninja is unaffected by any wind effect she has produced, and so may air walk unmolested by her own windstorm. Similarly, any effect she produces that has the Air descriptor functions normally in the whipping winds. The Art of Wind Command has a duration of 1 minute/level, and the air walk effect functions for the ninja only.

Ninjutsu Family: Void Element

Ki Emptiness
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Void Element 1
Use: 3/day

As the spell sanctuary cast on the ninja. The Will save DC is 15 + the ninja's Wis modifier.

Burning of the Void
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Void Element 2
Use: 2/day
Speed: Immediate action

As the spell chill touch, except that the ninja may elect to imbue her weapon with the effect. Additionally, each hit deals an extra +1d6 cold damage.

Void Palm
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Void Element 3
Use: 2/day
Speed: Immediate action

The ninja may nullify any single ray, line, burst or cone produced by a spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability, unless that effect is always active (i.e. a beholder's antimagic eye, a medusa's gaze.) The ninja may only nullify such an attack if it would enter her square. The effect is terminated at the point where it meets the ninja - creatures ahead of the ninja in the effect's path suffer the normal consequences. The ninja may also nullify a targeted dispel magic (aimed at the ninja only) or magic missiles, but not area effects such as squares, cubes, fogs etc. that form complete.

Energy Negation
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Void Element 4
Use: 3/day

As protection from energy. The ninja does not have to choose an energy type at the time she selects this ninjutsu.

Frigid Emptiness
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Void Element 5
Use: 1/day

As cone of cold; half of the damage is negative energy damage.

Ninjutsu Family: Star Ascendant

Cloud Vault Strike
Martial Ninjutsu
Family: Star Ascendant 1
Use: At will

The ninja may make a Jump check as part of a standard attack against a Large or larger creature. The DC is 12 +4 for every size category above Medium. On a success, the ninja leaps upwards while attacking, adding 2 + the ninja's Str bonus to to her attack roll. The attack deals an additional 2 damage per size category above Medium and adds the ninja's Str bonus.

Step of the Sky
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Star Ascendant 2
Use: 3/day

As the jump spell cast on the ninja.

Leap of the Stellar Aspirant
Martial Ninjutsu
Family: Star Ascendant 3
Use: At will

The ninja combines a Jump check (DC 20) with a Tumble check (DC 20) to leap over a foe. On a success on either check, the ninja performs a spinning leap over her foe while striking with a weapon, landing on the square behind her foe without provoking an attack of opportunity. Modify the DCs of these checks by adding 4 for each size category above Medium and subtracting 4 for each size category below. A failed check wastes a standard action and provokes an attack of opportunity. When using the full attack action, the ninja may continuously spin-jump her foe as long as she can end such a jump in an unoccupied space. If doing so, the foe becomes flat-footed until its next turn.

Art of Heaven's Path
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Star Ascendant 4
Use: 2/day

As the fly spell cast on the ninja. The ninja also gains Flyby Attack as a bonus feat.

Dance of the Cyclone
Martial Ninjutsu
Family: Star Ascendant 5
Use: 2/day

When moving using her Fly speed, the ninja may make a Whirlwind Attack (as the feat) as a standard action during her move. The ninja also gains Improved Flyby Attack as a bonus feat.

Ninjutsu Family: Walk of Hours

Steps of the Lily
Martial Ninjutsu
Family: Walk of Hours 1
Use: Constant

The ninja may take a 10 ft. move instead of a 5 ft. step.

Waltz of the Moment
Personal Ninjutsu
Family: Walk of Hours 2
Use: Constant

The ninja gets a +1 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

Step Ahead of Time
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Walk of Hours 3
Use: 3/day
Speed: Swift action

As the haste spell cast on the ninja.

Art of Twin Time
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Walk of Hours 4
Use: 3/day
Speed: Free action

The ninja can reroll a single roll that she has just made after seeing the effect of the original roll. The ninja must take the result of the new roll, even if it is worse than the original.

Timelost Plunge
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Walk of Hours 5
Use: 2/day

The ninja may distort time around a creature that she hits with a successful melee touch attack. The victim must make a Will save (DC 17 plus the ninja's Wis bonus) or be cut free from precision time. The creature's chronological fix begins to waver, distorting its perception and cognition. Living creatures and moving objects appear subject to a displacement effect (50% miss chance), immobile objects are blurred (20% miss chance) and detail is impossible to make out, rendering Spot checks, sneak attacks, reading and listening impossible. Additionally, the creature has a -6 penalty on AC and Reflex saves and must make a Concentration check (DC 17+ninja's Wis bonus+spell level) to cast spells. Blind-Fight, tremorsense and blindsight are negated while in a chronic blur. Chronic blurring lasts 2d6 rounds plus the ninja's Wis bonus. This ability is the equivalent of a 7th level spell.


Latest edit: Will be adding more at some point. I forgot how fun Void Palm was until just recently.

chiasaur11
2008-10-18, 11:36 AM
You forgot to include the Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu.

Fortunately, no matter what abilities you give them, they won't nullify the pirate ability, "Immunity to Ninjas."

Heh.

Pirate fans, still trying to compensate for their savage beatings at the hands of Irish ninjas centuries ago.

Oddly, immunity to ninjas, while always active, only means the subject can't be a ninja, doing no good against, say, ninja stabbing in the face.

When asked about it, a Wizards of the Coast editor said "That's not a typo" and vanished into a puff of smoke.

The Rose Dragon
2008-10-18, 11:44 AM
Well, considering Immunity to Ninjas is a class feature that says "It does nothing at all" and is gained at level "Infinity + 1", I'd say we're sage.

And, you know, the Utter Incompetence class feature gained at level 1 doesn't help.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-18, 12:10 PM
It looks neat. Why didn't you just give it normal Sneak Attack, though?

afroakuma
2008-10-18, 12:20 PM
I felt like retaining some of the suck of the original? :smalltongue:

I've already given it access to eclectic skills, a host of selectable supernatural abilities (which you haven't seen yet), a second good save, wicked extra damage and super stealthmode. I felt that the ninja's sudden attack should be a set of shuriken flying in to do 5d4+20+sudden strike, instead of the rogue's melee slash frenzy. The key weakness of sudden strike is that it doesn't work for flanking. This makes the new ninja modal: she can either remain hidden and snipe, do ranged flurries and crack off ninjutsu, or join melee, synchronize with her allies and use Jump, Tumble and precision strike to be a real pain.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-18, 12:31 PM
I felt like retaining some of the suck of the original? :smalltongue:

I've already given it access to eclectic skills, a host of selectable supernatural abilities (which you haven't seen yet), a second good save, wicked extra damage and super stealthmode. I felt that the ninja's sudden attack should be a set of shuriken flying in to do 5d4+20+sudden strike, instead of the rogue's melee slash frenzy. The key weakness of sudden strike is that it doesn't work for flanking. This makes the new ninja modal: she can either remain hidden and snipe, do ranged flurries and crack off ninjutsu, or join melee, synchronize with her allies and use Jump, Tumble and precision strike to be a real pain.

The class is rather good, but what do Jutsus do?

Are you going to post that soon?

Fax Celestis
2008-10-18, 12:35 PM
Sudden Strike Still Sucks. :smalltongue:

Just make it Sneak Attack and be done with it.

afroakuma
2008-10-18, 12:48 PM
It's supposed to suck, because it's supposed to deprive the ninja of that particular role.

Rogue = fighting dirty, advantageously = sneak attack

Scout = rushing into the fray, acquiring tactical advantage = skirmish

Ninja = stealth, surprise, assassination = sudden strike

If I give them sneak attack, they're just rogues. Unless you can see a way around that?

Lord Tataraus
2008-10-18, 03:10 PM
This is basically a 10 or 5 level prestige class stretched over 20 levels. A lot of the class features seem more like random filler than anything else and the more signature abilities are really lacking due to the 1/day restraint.


Sudden Attack As ninja.
Sudden Strike still sucks, but is worse off since there are no other abilities that trigger it like the old ghost step.


Honed Mind (Ex) The ninja adds her Wisdom bonus, if any, to her AC while unencumbered. At 5th level and every five levels thereafter, the ninja adds an additional +1 bonus to AC. This does not stack with a monk's Wisdom bonus to AC. She loses this bonus whenever immobilized or helpless, or when wearing armor or using a shield.
This is one thing that I like and that sets this apart from the rogue, but it does make the ninja more of a rogue/monk type class. I would suggest you make this a prestige class for the rogue that gives monk-like abilities like this one.


Shuriken Specialization A ninja is an expert on the sharpening, care and use of shuriken. In the hands of a ninja, a shuriken deals 1d4 damage, and has a critical range of 19-20/x2.
While flavorful this isn't that great, a 1d4 isn't much better than 1d2 since your still counting on your extra damage to make the attack matter. Rather than increasing the damage done by shurikens I would make them trigger Sudden Strike easier or something along those lines.


Flurry of Shuriken (Ex) When unarmored, a ninja may unleash a flurry of shuriken at the expense of accuracy. She may throw one additional shuriken at her highest base attack bonus, but each throw takes a -2 penalty. The ninja must use a full attack action to throw a flurry of shuriken. When a ninja reaches 11th level, she may add an additional throw at her highest base attack bonus.
This is better than the Shuriken Specialization, but it's still a weak ability. If you do change the Specialization to allow for easier Sudden Strike triggering than this ability would be a lot better. As it is now it is completely worthless unless your using poison or you multiclassed into rogue for sneak attack.


Acrobatic (Ex) The ninja gains a +2 bonus to Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently and Tumble checks at level 4. At 8th level, these bonuses increase to +4, and at 12th they increase to +6.

This is one of those random "nothing" abilities, this is pure unneeded filler.


Sniper (Ex) At 4th level, a ninja becomes more practiced at the art of striking from the shadows. The ninja gains a bonus equal to her level on Hide checks made to stay hidden after making a ranged attack from hiding.
This is a pretty useless ability. At 4th level you have 7 ranks, assuming a 16 dex and the Acrobatic ability (how does Acrobatics help with hiding?) you have a total of a +9 to Hide giving a total of -7 on your hide check (+9 base, +4 from this ability and -20 from hiding after an attack) to stay hidden, with a 10 you've got an amazing 3 on your hide check.


Muted Presence (Su) At 5th level, the ninja acquires a supernatural ability to avoid detection. Casters trying to employ a 3rd level or lower divination spell against a ninja must succeed on a caster level check (DC 10 plus the ninja's class level) or have the spell fail. At 11th level, the ninja mutes divination spells of 6th level or lower, and at 17th level she mutes all divination spells of 9th level or lower.
I like this ability...yeah, that's it.


Proficiency At 6th level and every six levels thereafter, a ninja chooses a non-class skill. The ninja immediately gains that skill as a class skill and acquires four ranks in it.
What? This is just more filler, this pretty useless all it does is give +4 to some skill, its a bit better than a free Skill Focus except its limited to skills you aren't going to use.


Synchronize (Ex) A ninja can use her expertise in combat to cooperate best with her allies. Each round, the ninja may take a single aid another action as a free action if an ally stands within 5 ft. She loses this ability whenever she would lose her Dex bonus to AC.
Where did this come from? This ability makes no sense for a ninja...it is effectively an ability that gives an adjacent ally +2 on some skill check or attack roll, why? This just seems like more filler, at 7th level a +2 isn't that much and if you are adjacent to an ally you most likely aren't playing to a ninja's strength which is hiding. This ability will almost never come into play, its a waste of space.


Precision Attack (Ex) At level 8, when a ninja makes an attack while unencumbered, not flanked and using neither armor nor shield, she gains a +1 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls. At level 16, the bonus increases to +2.
Wow...a free Weapon Focus at 8th level with restrictions, oh and Weapon Specialization at 16th! Seriously? This is more unnecessary filler that doesn't do anything significant or have anything to do with being a ninja.


Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) While in anything less than bright illumination, a ninja of 14th level or higher may use the Hide skill even while being observed.
Finally a true ninja ability, but really they should get this earlier, its too late to be effective. By this time any respectful ninja will have some way of getting at-will or close to it invisibility via magic items to capitalize on Sudden Strike.


Shadowy Form (Su) At 15th level, a ninja's proficiency with remaining hidden, combined with her link to the powers of Shadow, serves to make her more difficult to strike. She gains a permanent 5% concealment, which stacks with effects such as blur and displacement, as well as with total concealment. At 20th level, this increases to 10%. This concealment is due to having a shadowy, insubstantial body, and so does not count as concealment for the purposes of Hide checks or sudden strike.
I like it, but again it comes in too late. As a swordsage you can get 20% concealment at 1st level as long as you move and this requires magic items or a friendly wizard to actually do anything, a ninja should get concealment by himself a lot earlier.


Master Uncanny Dodge (Ex) At 20th level, a ninja acquires impossible reflexes. Once per day, she may add a +10 dodge bonus to either her AC or her Reflex saves for one round. She may declare this ability as a free action in response to an attack or effect, if she so chooses.
A really neat ability, but its 1/day. This will almost never get used. This is a perfect example of the Nuke Syndrome that looks great on paper, but in practice everyone conserves it and never actually uses it.

Overall, its a rogue with monk abilities and is severely lacking in what this class claims to do: stealth. This would be a lot better as a prestige class as would the original ninja.

afroakuma
2008-10-18, 03:36 PM
First off: Don't tell me to do it as a prestige class. Anybody. The point of this exercise is to see if I can make a feasible base class.


Sudden Strike still sucks, but is worse off since there are no other abilities that trigger it like the old ghost step.

I haven't filled in the ninjutsu yet. When I do, you'll have those abilities.


This is one thing that I like and that sets this apart from the rogue, but it does make the ninja more of a rogue/monk type class. I would suggest you make this a prestige class for the rogue that gives monk-like abilities like this one.

There's the prestige class again: no. And what is a ninja, if not a rogue/monk? With shadowy awesome?


While flavorful this isn't that great, a 1d4 isn't much better than 1d2 since your still counting on your extra damage to make the attack matter. Rather than increasing the damage done by shurikens I would make them trigger Sudden Strike easier or something along those lines.

1d4 is somewhat better, though, and makes them a more viable weapon. Especially when combined with Flurry of Shuriken. I don't see how they could trigger Sudden Strike "easier," but they're a ranged weapon that can be thrown en masse by the ninja to trigger his Sudden Strike. At level 14, it worked out to about 67 damage on an average full flurry Sudden Strike.


This is better than the Shuriken Specialization, but it's still a weak ability. If you do change the Specialization to allow for easier Sudden Strike triggering than this ability would be a lot better. As it is now it is completely worthless unless your using poison or you multiclassed into rogue for sneak attack.


Again, how would you have me make Sudden Strike better without it being sneak attack? And lest anyone mention it again, allowing it for flanking is right out. That is the rogue's thing. If I give it to the ninja, he's just a rogue, which is what this exercise is trying to avoid.

I would debate that it is completely worthless, since it is a ranged Flurry of Blows. As the damage is keyed off the ninja's best ability score anyway, I don't see the problem. 1st level, that's 2d4+8 damage, +2/+2 with 18 Dex. At 30' away.


This is one of those random "nothing" abilities, this is pure unneeded filler.

Mainly there for the Hide bonus, but also for other class skills which, hey, some people use. I agree that it's filler, but it was filler that was in the original class, so I gave it a bit of extra latitude.


This is a pretty useless ability. At 4th level you have 7 ranks, assuming a 16 dex and the Acrobatic ability (how does Acrobatics help with hiding?) you have a total of a +9 to Hide giving a total of -7 on your hide check (+9 base, +4 from this ability and -20 from hiding after an attack) to stay hidden, with a 10 you've got an amazing 3 on your hide check.

No, attempting to snipe without this ability is what's useless. At 4th level, you're not going to be a very good sniper, but still far better than most. By 7th level, assuming full ranks in Hide and same terms otherwise, you have only a -1 penalty to hide after a Sudden Strike.


I like this ability...yeah, that's it.

Thanks! I thought the flavor was appropriate.


What? This is just more filler, this pretty useless all it does is give +4 to some skill, its a bit better than a free Skill Focus except its limited to skills you aren't going to use.

The main reason this exists is because, in the other thread, one of the biggest quoted weaknesses was UMD. The ninja can access UMD with this ability, as of level 6. Instant four ranks and can take it as a class skill.


Where did this come from? This ability makes no sense for a ninja...it is effectively an ability that gives an adjacent ally +2 on some skill check or attack roll, why? This just seems like more filler, at 7th level a +2 isn't that much and if you are adjacent to an ally you most likely aren't playing to a ninja's strength which is hiding. This ability will almost never come into play, its a waste of space.


I concur wholeheartedly; this is really something of a placeholder. Another major complaint is that the ninja is uncooperative; while tyring to figure out another party-helping ability, I left that one in. Sorry about that.


Wow...a free Weapon Focus at 8th level with restrictions, oh and Weapon Specialization at 16th! Seriously? This is more unnecessary filler that doesn't do anything significant or have anything to do with being a ninja.

Weapon Focus on everything the ninja uses. Ninjas are supposed to be skilled combatants; it makes sense that they'd get a general bonus to a preferred attack situation.


Finally a true ninja ability, but really they should get this earlier, its too late to be effective. By this time any respectful ninja will have some way of getting at-will or close to it invisibility via magic items to capitalize on Sudden Strike.

I'll be moving that earlier.


I like it, but again it comes in too late. As a swordsage you can get 20% concealment at 1st level as long as you move and this requires magic items or a friendly wizard to actually do anything, a ninja should get concealment by himself a lot earlier.

Coming into this, I have never seen the swordsage, nor heard anything about Tome of Battle except how unbalanced it is. If anyone concurs with this opinion I'll be glad to adjust it, but I worry about a permanent 1 in 20 chance of just plain not getting hit.


A really neat ability, but its 1/day. This will almost never get used. This is a perfect example of the Nuke Syndrome that looks great on paper, but in practice everyone conserves it and never actually uses it.

I would think that, since you can react to a threat by using it, it would see some use. But again, any idea on how to fix it?

Lord Tataraus
2008-10-18, 04:39 PM
First off: Don't tell me to do it as a prestige class. Anybody. The point of this exercise is to see if I can make a feasible base class.
I'm not exactly telling you to make a prestige, I'm telling you that what I'm seeing is a prestige class but stretched to 20 levels. If I ever make mention of the prestige class again I'll try to be more descriptive as to why. As it is, this class has a lot of prestige class elements. Firstly, it is a rogue/monk hybrid, it does absolutely nothing new (except for the divination fooling, but that is pretty minor). Secondly, the focus of this class is extremely limited, no (true) base class is limited in this manner. A rogue can be a a face focusing on disguise, a swashbuckler, a thief, or an assassin among other options. So far, this class attempts to do only one thing: stealth and attack then rinse and repeat. Focusing on one aspect is what prestige classes are for, if you succeed in making a feasible base class it will not focus so much on one aspect. You have to focus on a broad aspect like stealth in general and as an abstract idea, not just hiding in the shadows, but blending into crowds, or looking insignificant.

One suggestion I would like to make is get rid of Sudden Strike, maybe make a ninjutsu to get it back, but get rid of as a default. I have two reasons for this, firstly it is causing you to narrow you're focus, right now you are too caught up with one definition of what a ninja is which is the way of the prestige class, not the base class. Secondly, I think it detracts from the potential, why can't a ninja be a hidden bodyguard? He doesn't always need to be an assassin, he could be a martial artist who uses judo-like throws to disarm his charge's attackers without him knowing he is threatened. As it is now, Sudden Strike is clogging up the potential, remove it to give you space for more flexible abilities.


I haven't filled in the ninjutsu yet. When I do, you'll have those abilities.
Yes, I realize that, but I was working with what I saw.


There's the prestige class again: no. And what is a ninja, if not a rogue/monk? With shadowy awesome?
You are thinking too focused, can't a ninja be a guy who walks out in the open, but blends in then goes for the kill? Can't a ninja be a bodyguard who is in the crowd somewhere looking insignificant until trouble shows up? Try to broaden you're idea of a ninja, right now you are too focused for a base class.


1d4 is somewhat better, though, and makes them a more viable weapon. Especially when combined with Flurry of Shuriken. I don't see how they could trigger Sudden Strike "easier," but they're a ranged weapon that can be thrown en masse by the ninja to trigger his Sudden Strike. At level 14, it worked out to about 67 damage on an average full flurry Sudden Strike.
By making it easier to pull off Sudden Strike easier I mean allow Shurikens to automatically get the bonus or something, but after thinking through this a bit more I think you should leave the focus of Sudden Strike as I mentioned above.



Again, how would you have me make Sudden Strike better without it being sneak attack? And lest anyone mention it again, allowing it for flanking is right out. That is the rogue's thing. If I give it to the ninja, he's just a rogue, which is what this exercise is trying to avoid.
This is another arguement for leaving Sudden Strike in the dust, it is a cheap knock off of rogue, at least Skirmish had a completely different trigger and added an extra bonus, Sudden Strike is just a Sneak Attack with less triggers.


I would debate that it is completely worthless, since it is a ranged Flurry of Blows. As the damage is keyed off the ninja's best ability score anyway, I don't see the problem. 1st level, that's 2d4+8 damage, +2/+2 with 18 Dex. At 30' away.
First of all, it is common consensus that Flurry of Blows sucks, this is marginally better because it is ranged, but then the damage is reduced as well from the monk's and its just not what a ninja really is anyway. With the interpetation you seem to be going off of, he is a hit-and-hide sniper, you can't do that with a full-attack.


No, attempting to snipe without this ability is what's useless. At 4th level, you're not going to be a very good sniper, but still far better than most. By 7th level, assuming full ranks in Hide and same terms otherwise, you have only a -1 penalty to hide after a Sudden Strike.
Then why not have it as a 7th or 8th level ability? I'm just saying that at 4th level it is useless, anyway sniping is not that great of a tactic anyway unless you give extra damage at very long ranges.


The main reason this exists is because, in the other thread, one of the biggest quoted weaknesses was UMD. The ninja can access UMD with this ability, as of level 6. Instant four ranks and can take it as a class skill.
So, why not make it a class skill?


Weapon Focus on everything the ninja uses. Ninjas are supposed to be skilled combatants; it makes sense that they'd get a general bonus to a preferred attack situation.
Yeah, but even that isn't much of a bonus at that level, or any level for that matter. Personally I like neat abilities rather than minor +1's and +2's.


Coming into this, I have never seen the swordsage, nor heard anything about Tome of Battle except how unbalanced it is. If anyone concurs with this opinion I'll be glad to adjust it, but I worry about a permanent 1 in 20 chance of just plain not getting hit.
I've never heard that ToB was unbalanced without predetermined bias based on fluff. Also, the bonus would not be permanent, it would be a triggered ability like moving at least 30ft or something.



I would think that, since you can react to a threat by using it, it would see some use. But again, any idea on how to fix it?
Hmm...it does have that reaction quality which makes it's use more likely, but still I hardly see anything with lower than 3/day get used much. I would suggest cutting the bonus in half and making it a 3/day ability. You might even be able to get away with leaving it as-is except increase the use to 2/day.

sleepy
2008-10-18, 06:06 PM
if you want to make sudden strike better without making it sneak attack, just have it give d8's

KKL
2008-10-18, 09:38 PM
...Tome of Battle...unbalanced
HAHAHA, no. They actually make melee characters FUN. And in terms of broken, it's probably one of the most balanced books for the entirety of 3.5e.

That aside, this class seems really lacking. Still. Lord Tartarus seems to be on the same vein as I am as far as the fixes can go.

afroakuma
2008-10-18, 11:08 PM
I've never heard that ToB was unbalanced

Must have been the threads I was reading. The only two terms that ever got around were bandied about like cuss words. "Iron Heart" and "White Raven Tactics," I believe.


They actually make melee characters FUN.

See, now you've gone and made me curious.

Well, at the very least, I know this round is a loss. Round 2 will come shortly.

streakster
2008-10-18, 11:25 PM
Must have been the threads I was reading. The only two terms that ever got around were bandied about like cuss words. "Iron Heart" and "White Raven Tactics," I believe.

See, I know why Iron Heart Surge was mentioned. Its just poorly worded. The ability is clearly meant to allow to end one effect on you - sort of a "Shrug it off" type deal. Instead, you can technically use it to end AMF's, gravity, the sun, and time.

White Raven Tactics is designed to let you help out your allies. Cue people claiming that they count as their own ally.

It's not broken, though - exploits like that are in every book (look at what Tippy can do with core only magic, or that one infamous Serpent Book). It's loads of fun, and makes melee interesting again.

afroakuma
2008-10-18, 11:28 PM
*sigh* there goes another pile of cash. Good thing I'm rich.

I'm reworking this ninja for the next go-around. Any other decisive inputs on what not to wear? Or more importantly, what TO add?

Level20Commoner
2008-10-19, 10:36 AM
"Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ninjas are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, kama, kukri, nunchaku, sai, shortbow, short sword, shuriken and siangham. Ninjas are not proficient with any armor or shield.

Shuriken Specialization A ninja is an expert on the sharpening, care and use of shuriken. In the hands of a ninja, a shuriken deals 1d4 damage, and has a critical range of 19-20/x2."

I think you may have figured out a good fix for your version. In my update to the ninja, I dumped the ninja's original proficiencies and let the character pick their own exotic weapons. The 4th Ed trick of upping the damage die for shuriken might work for all those lousy monk weapons though. That's my suggestion anyway. I like your base class, but I don't think the original CA version was really worth keeping. That quality of the CA notwithstanding, your version would probably pass casual DM inspection. Good job!

afroakuma
2008-10-19, 10:54 AM
Still needs violent reworking, apparently. I'm going to work more on its stealth abilities and maybe add the ninjutsu families.

afroakuma
2008-10-19, 09:12 PM
Alright, some early concepts for approval:

Hide in Plain Sight at 8th level, works in dim illumination, crowds or poor weather.

Expert Readiness: Encumbrance limit is an additional 25/50 lbs. from familiarity and constant use of gear.

Shuriken Storm: Throw two shuriken on each attack at a -2 penalty.

Sniper: Can Hide after a full action snipe. Moved to 7th level.

afroakuma
2008-10-20, 08:58 AM
Alright, new version is up. Butcher away.

streakster
2008-10-20, 09:22 AM
Uncanny Movement seems a bit weak - a lower level warlock can do that all day long. How about no time limit?

Some method of improving one's weapons would be nice - the current choices are...less than stellar. Either an ability similar to shuriken storm that improves the use of such weapons, or adds extra weapon choices, would be nice.

I'm not sure how useful expert readiness will be, what with Heward's Handy Haversacks, Bags of Holding, Gloves of Storing, etc. I dunno. It could be handy, I suppose.

Since ninja's are all about surprise, what about improvements to the Ninja's surprise rounds? Allowing the ninja a move action when it gets a surprise round, for example.

Would be nice to see some jutsus, too. Just to get some ideas of what they're like, and what they'll add to the class.

Just ideas. Lookin' better!

Ziegander
2008-10-20, 09:40 AM
Lose the shuriken nonsense. Do you see any other base class in existence that specializes in a single weapon? Monk. Almost. And it's not even actually a weapon. Specializing in a single weapon is for PrCs. Since you don't want this to be a PrC, I suggest you lose the shuriken stuff. Just give it a ranged flurry with thrown weapons, and give it a bonus when using small thrown weapons (or exotic, or something along those lines - bonus points if you can find a way to allow it with blowguns and such).

Other wise, it seems decent enough. I think you're on the right track, but maybe need to rework it again. I'll give a more in depth feedback soon.

afroakuma
2008-10-20, 09:41 AM
Uncanny Movement seems a bit weak - a lower level warlock can do that all day long.

*shrug* I figured ninjas should get to climb walls and ceilings. If there's a better way to do it I'm all ears.


Some method of improving one's weapons would be nice - the current choices are...less than stellar. Either an ability similar to shuriken storm that improves the use of such weapons, or adds extra weapon choices, would be nice.

I'm not sure how useful expert readiness will be, what with Heward's Handy Haversacks, Bags of Holding, Gloves of Storing, etc. I dunno. It could be handy, I suppose.

Thematic idea based on needing to keep a pack of 50 shuriken with you (25 lbs.)

Overall I think people are not digging the shuriken in any way, shape or form. And I don't follow how or why a "method of improving one's weapons" should be implemented. Should I just drop all shuriken-related whatnots? (Extra Throw, Shuriken Specialization, Expert Readiness etc.)


Since ninja's are all about surprise, what about improvements to the Ninja's surprise rounds? Allowing the ninja a move action when it gets a surprise round, for example.

They used to have one; it was called sudden strike. I dropped it due to popular protest. The current ninja always has the drop on his opponents, since he can hide in plain sight in any circumstance less than standing alone on a flat stone surface in broad daylight.

And Ziegander: I previously had a ranged flurry. I was told rather clearly not to do that again.

streakster
2008-10-20, 09:47 AM
*shrug* I figured ninjas should get to climb walls and ceilings. If there's a better way to do it I'm all ears.

Take off the time limit. Now it's just as good!




Thematic idea based on needing to keep a pack of 50 shuriken with you (25 lbs.)

Overall I think people are not digging the shuriken in any way, shape or form. And I don't follow how or why a "method of improving one's weapons" should be implemented. Should I just drop all shuriken-related whatnots? (Extra Throw, Shuriken Specialization, Expert Readiness etc.)

I'm sorry. Let me clarify: The current weapon proficiencies are not that great. Having an ability that improves these weapons (such as Shuriken Specialization improves shuriken damage) or adds new profs would be nice to offset this.




They used to have one; it was called sudden strike. I dropped it due to popular protest. The current ninja always has the drop on his opponents, since he can hide in plain sight in any circumstance less than standing alone on a flat stone surface in broad daylight.


Fair enough.

afroakuma
2008-10-20, 09:53 AM
The thing about surprise round abilities is that they're good for the surprise round only, which further contributes to the ninja as a solo who's no good in a party.

I'll see about the weapons.

Ziegander
2008-10-20, 10:04 AM
Here's an idea: Give the Ninja some sort of choice in it's specialization. You can go straight sword (ninja-to) and get interesting things from that, or you can shuriken spec and get completely different stuff, or you can go katar spec and get other things, or short bow, bla, bla, you see?

Also, there's nothing wrong with ranged flurry, as long as it's handled right. Flurry's mostly just bad because of medium BAB. So instead of doing it exactly like Monk flurry, do a rewrite that makes more sense. An additional attack with thrown weapons at your highest BAB, and no penalty. The max range could be 30ft so it isn't crazy good.

I also think Sudden Strike was totally fine. Hmph! I like that you were trying to focus it on striking from the shadows. That makes sense to me. But if you want to emulate Sudden Strike while staying different from Sneak Attack, again, write your own new ability that is similar.

afroakuma
2008-10-20, 10:08 AM
There was... a lot of opposition (read: exponential) to Sudden Strike. Since I'm trying to make the ninja distinct from the rogue, I can't juts hand over Sneak Attack.

I figure combat specialization can be bought on your own time (read: Feats). The ninja now gets to choose four martial and two exotic weapons for proficiency. Ninjutsu combined with the class features should balance it.

Opinions? Do I really need the combat boosts? (Weapon Focus et. al)?

Ziegander
2008-10-20, 10:21 AM
I saw the opposition to Sudden Strike, I'm just saying that I agreed with your initial reasons to keep it. It's fine if you don't want to bring it back. If you still want something like that so that it's always hidden when it attacks, and so it gets some benefit, make up a new feature yourself.

The proficiencies thing makes sense to me.

I don't think the combat boosts you currently have are necessary. And they are bland. I think some sort of combat boost would be very nice, but I don't like the weapon focus stuff, personally.

afroakuma
2008-10-20, 10:29 AM
If you still want something like that so that it's always hidden when it attacks, and so it gets some benefit, make up a new feature yourself.

Ninjas get Sniper, which lets them whip out a bow for two/three shots and then hide again.


The proficiencies thing makes sense to me.

Thank you.


I don't think the combat boosts you currently have are necessary. And they are bland.

...Am I missing something? The only one I see there is Weapon Finesse, which makes sense for a dextrous fighter to have. Are there others?

And I had previously had a combat boost on this class, but it too got shouted down.

Ziegander
2008-10-20, 10:34 AM
Wait...


Opinions? Do I really need the combat boosts? (Weapon Focus et. al)?

... *checks class table* D'oh! You tricked me!

As far as sniper goes, I like it, but I'm not sure it's quite enough... it's missing some sort of kick...

Anyway, I'll reserve judgment until I see the Jutsu's. Remember though that if you're putting them on the daily timer that they had better be REALLY awesome. I don't want, and I don't think other people want, to see anything like Smite Evil, or Abundant Step in there.

afroakuma
2008-10-20, 10:39 AM
No, more like:


Disengage
Martial Ninjutsu
Family Guerillia Tactics 3
Use At will

After a successful melee hit on a foe, you may make a Bluff check opposed by the foe's Sense Motive. If you win, the foe is distracted and you may move (if you have a move action remaining) and/or Hide without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Lord Tataraus
2008-10-20, 10:57 AM
Well...uh...pretty good, I just think you might pull this off. Currently, I really like how you broadened the class out, specializing on the hide, but you've left flexible mechanics in so you can do a lot with it. Right now the class is still pretty bare, but I expect that to be fixed up with the ninjutsu for the more combat effects.

On the topic of ninjutsu, I really like your spoiler there (except you probably want to put "without provoking an attack of opportunity" in there) and hope to see a lot of effect-based ninjutsu rather than a buch of +X to attack, +Y to damage stuff. You should have pure damage ninjutsu, though I think it would cooler to have more round-about damage such as Con, Str, and Dex damage. Maybe have poison-based attacks, but have the "poison" be a built-in part of the mechanic and assume the ninja just has the poison in question.

For example:
Lotus Strike
Use: 3/day (or maybe 1/encounter if you prefer)
Make a normal attack as a standard action, if it hits the target takes 1 Con damage +1 for every 5 ninja levels; fort save (DC 10 + Dex + 1/2 ninja level) for half.

Poisoned Blade
Use: 6/day (or maybe 2/encounter if you prefer)
Make a normal attack as a standard action, if it hits the target takes damage as normal and has a penalty to Fortitude saves verse poison equal to 1/4 your ninja level for 3 rounds.

afroakuma
2008-10-20, 11:07 AM
Well...uh...pretty good, I just think you might pull this off.

Thank you! And I got your moniker right this time, too.


Currently, I really like how you broadened the class out

Well, your point (well made) was that the base classes are archetypes. While other base classes get painfully more specific (hello, the Binder), I'd rather it's able to stand on its own. So the ninja is the hidden bodyguard, the assassin, the spy, the cover fire.


On the topic of ninjutsu, I really like your spoiler there (except you probably want to put "without provoking an attack of opportunity" in there) and hope to see a lot of effect-based ninjutsu rather than a buch of +X to attack, +Y to damage stuff.

That's where it's headed. And I caught the fix, thanks.


You should have pure damage ninjutsu, though I think it would cooler to have more round-about damage such as Con, Str, and Dex damage.

The Fire Element family contains some direct damage, and there are one or two more. The Shadow Knife Hand ninjutsu actually lets you choose at the time you acquire it which ability score you can damage.

Ziegander
2008-10-20, 11:42 AM
The ninjutsu is sounding excellent. Glad to hear it.

afroakuma
2008-10-20, 11:50 AM
Since the base framework is less contested, I'll start posting ninjutsu families today.

afroakuma
2008-10-20, 02:12 PM
Ninjutsu Family: Fire Element

Ki Flame
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Fire Element 1
Use: 2/day
Speed: Free action

As the spell produce flame. The ninja may add the fire damage to an unarmed strike; doing so expends one minute of duration as the melee attack would.

Phoenix Spread
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Fire Element 2
Use: 2/day

As the spell burning hands only damage is in d6 instead of d4. Add the ninja's Wis bonus to total damage.

Eyes of Warmth
Personal Ninjutsu
Family: Fire Element 3
Use: Constant

The ninja gains darkvision 120 ft. and sees thermally.

Chains of Flame
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Fire Element 4
Use: 2/day

As the spell scorching ray only damage is in d8 instead of d6. The ninja adds her Wis bonus to the ranged attack rolls.

Art of Flames Dancing
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Fire Element
Use: 1/day
Speed: Full action

As the spell summon monster V used to summon a Medium fire elemental. The ninja gains immunity to fire for the duration of the ninjutsu, and the fire elemental can move freely through her square. The fire elemental cannot move more than 30 ft. from the ninja. A 12th level ninja can summon a Large fire elemental instead, and a 15th level ninja can summon a Huge fire elemental.


Ninjutsu Family: Shadow Hand

Shadow Fade
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Shadow Hand 1
Use: 3/day
Speed: Free action

The ninja emits a film of Shadow over her weapon, causing it to fade out slightly. Difficulty seeing the weapon denies the foe its Dex bonus to AC. Shadow Fade lasts for the entire round.

Shadow Guise
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Shadow Hand 2
Use: 3/day
Speed: Full action

The ninja passes her hand over her face, covering herself with a film of Shadow. This replicates a disguise self spell and imparts a +2 circumstance bonus to the ninja's AC for the duration.

Shadow Knife Hand
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Shadow Hand 3
Use: 2/day

The ninja makes a melee touch attack, stabbing a Shadow-powered hand into her foe. This attack is made using an unarmed strike. When choosing this ninjutsu, the ninja must select an ability score to affect. The melee attack deals 1d8 temporary damage to that ability score (1d4 damage if Con is selected). Multiple selections of Shadow Knife Hand can either add more uses to the current type or grant two new uses against a second ability.

Shadow Arms
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Shadow Hand 4
Use: 2/day

The ninja makes a ranged touch attack to start a grapple with two arms of Shadow. The arms are treated as a Large creature, and their strength score is equivalent to the ninja's Str +20. If successful in grappling, the ninja may take other actions while the grapple continues. Each round the arms maintain their grapple, they do 2d6+Str bonus bludgeoning damage to the grappled foe. If the grapple fails at any time, the arms vanish. Being made of Shadow, the arms can only be seen using see invisibility or equivalent, and are immune to attack spells, though dispel magic can remove them. The maximum range of this ability is 60 ft. and the maximum duration is 1 round/level. This ability is the equivalent of a 6th level spell.

Shadow Shove
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Shadow Hand 5
Use: 1/day

The ninja makes a melee touch attack, pushing with a Shadow-powered hand against her foe. On a success, the ninja and her foe make opposed Str checks. The ninja adds her Wis bonus, and her foe takes a -4 penalty. If the opponent loses the Str check, it is pushed bodily into the Plane of Shadow (or to a point one mile away if on another plane) for 1 minute. If the ninja has employed Shadow Arms against the foe, she does not need to make a melee touch attack. Instead, she may use the arms' Strength score for the Str check. If she does, the arms continue their grapple on the Plane of Shadow.

Ninjutsu Family: Snake Fang

Art of Cobras
Martial Ninjutsu
Family: Snake Fang 1
Use: Constant

The ninja is not at risk when using poisons. Increase the save DC of the ninja's poisons by 2. The ninja may make a Craft (alchemy) check (DC equal to save DC of poison) to separate a dose into two working doses. On a failure, the original dose remains potent, but cannot be experimented with again.

Serpent's Venom
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Snake Fang 2
Use: Constant

The ninja increases primary poison damage by 1 and secondary poison damage by 2 on her poisoned attacks. Secondary damage takes effect in 30 seconds (5 rounds) instead of one minute.

Deep Fang
Martial Ninjutsu
Family: Snake Fang 3
Use: 3/day

Wounds dealt by the ninja's slashing and piercing weapons this round continue bleeding, dealing 1 temporary Con damage. Creatures immune to critical hits are unaffected.

Lethal Cloud
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Snake Fang 4
Use: 3/day

The ninja may keep within her mouth an inhaled or contact poison, which she may exhale in a 15 ft. cone. This poison remains in affected squares for one minute before dissipating. The ninja cannot be harmed by the poison while it is in her mouth, but could be harmed if she enters the lingering cloud. Creatures within the cloud may make a Reflex save (DC 10 + BAB + ninja's Con mod) to leap 5' out of the area. Moderate winds may dispel the cloud.

Cobra Hand
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Snake Fang 5
Use: 3/day
Speed: Swift action

The ninja conjures a toxic acid, which transforms her hand into a cobra's head. This magical weapon strikes with a melee touch attack at a +5 bonus. Creatures struck by the cobra take 3d6 + the ninja's Con bonus in acid damage, and must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 ninja class level + ninja's Con bonus) against the cobra's poison, which deals 1d6 primary ability damage and 1d8 secondary ability damage. The cobra head vanishes at the end of the ninja's turn. When selecting this jutsu, the ninja chooses Str, Dex, Int or Wis for the poison's effect. The ninja may elect for a different poison on subsequent selections or take more uses of the same one.

Ninjutsu Family: Air Element

Gale Shield
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Air Element 1
Use: 2/day

As the spell wind wall.

Ki Squall
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Air Element 2
Use: 1/day
Speed: Immediate action

As the spell gust of wind.

Hawk's Winds
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Air Element 3
Use: 3/day
Speed: Free action

A ranged weapon used by the ninja is propelled by a powerful wind to the target. The added force adds five damage to the attack and guarantees a critical on a successful hit. In moderate or stronger winds (including passing through the other side of a wind wall, the weapon deals an additional 5 damage. Creatures immune to critical hits will not be affected by the guaranteed critical.

Ki Gale Blast
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Air Element 4
Use: 1/day
Speed: Immediate action

As the spell gust of wind, except all size categories are affected as the next lower category, and saves against the blast are made at a -6 penalty.

Art of Wind Command
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Air Element 5
Use: 1/day
Speed: Immediate action

As the spells control winds and air walk. The ninja is unaffected by any wind effect she has produced, and so may air walk unmolested by her own windstorm. Similarly, any effect she produces that has the Air descriptor functions normally in the whipping winds. The Art of Wind Command has a duration of 1 minute/level, and the air walk effect functions for the ninja only.

Ninjutsu Family: Void Element

Ki Emptiness
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Void Element 1
Use: 3/day

As the spell sanctuary cast on the ninja.

Burning of the Void
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Void Element 2
Use: 2/day
Speed: Immediate action

As the spell chill touch, except that the ninja may elect to imbue her weapon with the effect. Additionally, each hit deals an extra +1d6 cold damage.

Void Palm
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Void Element 3
Use: 1/day
Speed: Immediate action

The ninja may nullify any single ray, line or cone produced by a spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability, unless that effect is always active (i.e. a beholder's antimagic eye, a medusa's gaze.) The ninja may only nullify such an attack if it would enter her square. The effect is terminated at the point where it meets the ninja - creatures ahead of the ninja in the effect's path suffer the normal consequences. The ninja may also nullify magic missiles.

Energy Negation
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Void Element 4
Use: 3/day

As protection from energy. The ninja does not have to choose an energy type at the time she selects this ninjutsu.

Frigid Emptiness
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Void Element 5
Use: 1/day

As cone of cold; half of the damage is negative energy damage.

afroakuma
2008-10-20, 07:01 PM
Ninjutsu

Ninjas use special techniques known as ninjutsu, some of which are practiced maneuvers, while others are supernatural effects drawn from the power of the Plane of Shadow. Where a jutsu would emulate a particular spell, treat that effect as the appropriate spell at its lowest printed caster level. A ninja uses Wisdom for all supernatural effects except where otherwise noted. The ninja's caster level is equal to her class level.

Jutsus are divided into four classes:

Personal Ninjutsu are a fundamental power the ninja acquires. These are extraordinary abilities unless otherwise noted.

Martial Ninjutsu are complex physical arts, relying on no special power. These are all extraordinary abilities.

Energy Ninjutsu call or focus a form of energy, such as is needed for a conjuration or an evocation. These are supernatural abilities except where noted.

Shadow Ninjutsu draw from or employ the Plane of Shadow. Some of them only work while on a coexistant plane; others siphon Shadow power and can be employed nearly anywhere. These are all supernatural abilities.

A jutsu always requires a standard action and one free hand to perform. If the jutsu takes more or less time to use, a Speed listing will be present in its info block.

Jutsus are either usable a certain number of times per day or are active constantly; this latter is usually the case for Personal Ninjutsu.

Selecting Ninjutsu
When a ninja acquires a new jutsu, she may choose from any ninjutsu family. The ninja may only acquire the lowest jutsu in a family initially; she may subsequently choose the next highest jutsu in that family. A ninja may also select any jutsu she already knows with daily uses (some exceptions apply for Constant use, and are noted). Doing so allows the ninja to increase the number of daily uses of that jutsu. At will jutsus cannot be selected multiple times.

Ziegander
2008-10-20, 10:25 PM
The jutus are very flavorful, and are fairly polished, but all of them seem just slightly on the weak side. Then again, what kind of game are you aiming for? What level of optimization do you expect of players, and what kind of distribution of power do you expect among PC classes? Because giving out wizard abilities at high levels, usable only a few times per day, but that are really quite low level wizard spells, just seems underpowered. But, if the wizard isn't an issue, then it might not be underpowered.

I especially like the Snake and Shadow ones, but again they seem underpowered as well - even as cool as they are. Compare Shadow Arms to Evard's Black Tentacles (Conjuration spell, 4th level I believe).

Compare Deep Fang to simply a Wounding weapon, or Lethal Cloud to Cloudkill (Conjuration, 5th). Do you find the spell effects I am bringing up overpowered, or not? If not, then you should adjust accordingly so that the Ninja gets level appropriate power.

afroakuma
2008-10-20, 10:41 PM
Deep Fang can be accessed at level 6. It currently allows the ninja to deal a free 2-3 damage per round, which escalates with future hits.

Shadow Arms can be accessed by level 8, and I compared them to the grapple feature of Bigby's grasping hand. Their attack roll is better, they can't be seen or destroyed conventionally and their Strength score will almost certainly be superior.

Lethal Cloud depends on the poison the ninja uses; and for creatures with more than 6 HD, Lethal Cloud is likely superior, since the poison will probably be stronger (especially as the ninja would have to have Serpent's Venom by this point). The downside is that the ninja will be in melee range. Again, it can be accessed by level 8, which is sooner than a wizard sees Cloudkill.

I strengthened some things for you; take another look.

The difficulty with ninjutsu is that technically, they are all accessible by level 10 if a player is dedicated enough. That means that 6th and 7th level effects are kind of iffy.

Lord Tataraus
2008-10-20, 11:29 PM
I'm going to save space and just reference names and key parts of the text so here we go:


Ki Flame

As the spell produce flame, except that the flames cannot be thrown. The ninja may add the fire damage to an unarmed strike; doing so expends one minute of duration as the melee attack would.
Ok, I included all the description text on the first one, but I just want to make an overarching statement right here and it is a bit of a pet peeve but for a very practical reason. As a rule of thumb, only reference a spell if the ability in question is almost exactly the same with only changes to duration, casting time, or saving throws and/or the spell in question has at least a paragraph worth of text. Firstly, most people don't know what a spell does off the top of their head and also it is a lot more straight forward if you spell it out.

So, basically, please write out exactly what the effect is, don't reference spells unless the fall under the above conditions. It isn't much more to change the text to:

As a free action the ninja's unarmed attacks deal an extra 1d6+1 per level (maximum +5) fire damage for 1 minute per level. Each melee attack reduces this duration by 1 minute.
This is a lot better and you don't need to double reference to figure out what it does, especially for something so minor.

With that out of the way, I have two problems with this ability, it is too limited for effective use - you give up a standard action to give your next few unarmed strike the flaming special ability for [level] attacks at best. The standard action alone is a big drawback, you basically aren't doing anything for a turn for a slight bonus which becomes near-insignificant at mid levels and is ignored by the most common energy resistance.
I should probably read the entire entry a bit more carefully next time :smallredface:
Ok, my ignoring the above I have only one problem with this, it's a 1/day ability. Ninjutsu is supposed to be the main active abilities of this class, everything else is more defensive and passive boosts and you are asking someone to take their first ability in a tree to be a 1/day boost that is irrelevant at mid to high levels? Yes they can take it multiple times for (I assume) an extra use per day each time, but that's in place of the better, higher level abilities. The only thing that should ever be 1/day is some sort of bomb, like the Jade Phoenix Mage suicide bomb that is mostly guaranteed to kill or seriously injure everything around him. I would suggest a minimum of 3/day for long duration abilities (anything in minutes to hours) and 6/day for instantaneous abilities as a base. Then adjust that number by the power of the ability using either a definite or abstract scale so that the more powerful abilities are reduced to 2/day and 3 or 4/day respectively and the big super powerful abilities as 1/day and 2/day respectively. Remember that these are the only damage boosts a ninja will normally get, anytime he can't use a ninjutsu ability he is going to be doing damage as 1d6+str at best and I bet his str won't be very high.


Phoenix Spread
You changed a lot about the spell you reference, please just write out the whole thing, otherwise I'd label this as a "powerful" ability since it effects multiple targets and increase the uses to 3/day.


Eyes of Warmth
I don't really have a problem with this, but rather wonder if it would be ok to just say it is thermal vision? On one side you have DMs and players who probably have a good idea of how it works, but then you don't know what kind of cheese some munchkin might try to pull with it being heat vision.


Chains of Flame
Same as Phoenix Spread, write the full description and increase to 3/day, remember that this ability has prerequisites, that means its ok to have a slightly more powerful ability, don't balance each ability in the tree to each other, they should be tiered in power to some extent otherwise there is no point in having a tree.


Art of Flames Dancing
Here it is ok to just reference the spell since it is a long description, I don't know about the 1/day usage or if it should be a 2/day usage. It does give a minor boost to the ninja, though since you are summoning a fire elemental, that basically means the only threat of fire is from your own elemental so you can take advantage of that. I don't know really, I'll leave it up to the court, it only lasts for 10-20 rounds, which is an entire combat. I'll have to see others opinions on this one.

After a second look, I would suggest increasing the size of the elemental based on ninja level because this is one thing that really does change with level, at mid levels its very useful, but becomes almost trivial at higher levels. Then keep the 1/day usage.


Ninjutsu Family: Shadow Hand
I would suggest changing the name a bit since this is a Swordsage discipline, just to avoid confusion.


Shadow Fade
I'd increase to 6/day or 4 at least, remember you don't really have any SA or SS damage and it only lasts for a round so its not much of a boost. I assume this would be used mostly by rogue/ninja multiclass characters, but then the character would have a lowered SA for their level (by 2 increase at the very least) so its still not too unbalancing.


Shadow Guise
Disguise self is one you can safely reference since it does have a number of parts to it and most people know what it does, though I'd say increase the usage to 3/day, or possibly 2/day.


Shadow Knife Hand
Firstly, increase the usage to around 4 or 6/day and you need to make some changes to the damage. Every point of Con damage is worth at least 2 Str or Dex damage, Str and Dex effects AC and to-hit/damage, but at a 2 to 1 basis while every two points of Con damage is 1*level hp damage as well as decreases fort saves. I suggest changing it to 1d6 Str or Dex damage or 1d3 Con damage.


Shadow Arms
Again you have a high level, restricted access ability with a 1/day usage! You really seem to like those, I suggest a 3/day at least, you could probably even go with 6/day because, this is grappling and in most cases the ninja will lose unless it is a humanoid you are targeting.


Shadow Shove
This one I'd say is a 2/day worthy ability, not really powerful enough to be a bomb yet.


Art of Cobras
This is a completely useless ability. Anyone who is building a character with the idea of using poisons will play a race that is either immune or has poison use built in.


Serpent's Venom
This should be a constant boost and increase the poison's saves as well.


Deep Fang
I would shift this down to a level 2 or even 1 ability and of course increase the usage to 6/day with a fixed duration or 4/day with your limitless duration.


Lethal Cloud
This isn't really worthy of a 4th level ability, no more than 2 I'd say, it's just a fancy delivery system and again it has an extremely restrictive usage.


Cobra Hand
Perfect.

streakster
2008-10-20, 11:34 PM
Hmm. Ninjutsu are quite interesting. Personally, I'd think I'd currently go with Snake up to Deep Fang, and Shadow up to Shadow Knife Hand. Purely for aesthetic reasons, you see.

So:

They seem to beef up a ninja quite nicely, adding some flexibility and versatility in. I quite like that you can either have magical abilities, or a bunch of uses of more mundane, low-level ones.

I dislike the per/day arrangement of jutsu - but that's just my personal opinion on all per day abilities ever, not any reflection on the class. Being able to purchase more uses helps offset that.

I shouldn't worry about the whole "You can get the jutsu capstone by level 10" thing. They don't seem overpowered at all to me, and I can't see that being a problem.

Anyway, my 2cp. Lookin' forward to more jutsu!

EDIT: Oi, tatarus, whatchu onna 'bout? Art of Cobras worthless? Psssh. I wanna be a human ninja that uses poisons, and I don't wanna die from doing it. It could stand a boost, sure - maybe a bonus of some sort - but worthless? Nah.

afroakuma
2008-10-21, 12:11 AM
I dislike the per/day arrangement of jutsu - but that's just my personal opinion on all per day abilities ever, not any reflection on the class.

Take a gander at Void Hand. Per day it must be.

Those poor dragons.


Ok, I included all the description text on the first one, but I just want to make an overarching statement right here and it is a bit of a pet peeve but for a very practical reason. As a rule of thumb, only reference a spell if the ability in question is almost exactly the same with only changes to duration, casting time, or saving throws and/or the spell in question has at least a paragraph worth of text. Firstly, most people don't know what a spell does off the top of their head and also it is a lot more straight forward if you spell it out.

The main reason I am referencing the spells is so that I don't have to go after their durations, ranges and full text while rushing to post these. I'd hate to replicate that much of the SRD right here. I can see your point on some of them, but the burning hands changes the damage die and adds a modifier. It doesn't alter the fundamentals of the spell, it just says "when you get to the damage, do this instead."


Ok, my ignoring the above I have only one problem with this, it's a 1/day ability. Ninjutsu is supposed to be the main active abilities of this class, everything else is more defensive and passive boosts and you are asking someone to take their first ability in a tree to be a 1/day boost that is irrelevant at mid to high levels?

Partly it's because it's the gateway to the stronger fire abilities, which are the direct damage and whatnot, but also because these are general supernatural abilities. Being able to conjure a torch is pretty useful, and the fire damage comboes nicely with the upcoming stunning fist tree.

That said, 1/day is too low. I'll increase to 3/day.


Same as Phoenix Spread, write the full description and increase to 3/day, remember that this ability has prerequisites, that means its ok to have a slightly more powerful ability, don't balance each ability in the tree to each other, they should be tiered in power to some extent otherwise there is no point in having a tree.

An ability accessible at level 8 that does 12d8 + (3*Wis) total damage
for a non-caster (and is supernatural) is more powerful. I'll increase it to 2/day, but again, direct damage is not the ninja's strong suit. If you want the jutsu, it's available, but the ninja is a stealth combatant.


It does give a minor boost to the ninja, though since you are summoning a fire elemental, that basically means the only threat of fire is from your own elemental so you can take advantage of that.

The fire elemental can charge through the ninja, stand in the same square as the ninja, be a fiery shield for the ninja or run around being a little pyromaniac for the ninja. It's probably a versatile effect overall. I'd consider increasing it to Large. I'll take a look at my MM and make the call tomorrow.


I would suggest changing the name a bit since this is a Swordsage discipline, just to avoid confusion.

That book again. I'm worried that you're looking at this based on the maneuvers in ToB. I'm not balancing it against ToB.


I'd increase to 6/day or 4 at least, remember you don't really have any SA or SS damage and it only lasts for a round so its not much of a boost. I assume this would be used mostly by rogue/ninja multiclass characters, but then the character would have a lowered SA for their level (by 2 increase at the very least) so its still not too unbalancing.

...is there that much difference between 3 and 4? If you feel the need for another 3 uses, buy it next level. Again, it's a gateway to more powerful abilities. And yes, a rogue/ninja multiclass would quite enjoy it.


Disguise self is one you can safely reference since it does have a number of parts to it and most people know what it does, though I'd say increase the usage to 3/day, or possibly 2/day.

I could see 2/day. Further uses have to be bought.

It's really about restricting the upper branches. If you want more of the lesser abilities, you have to pay for them. It works to foil 1/1/1/1/6 selection.


Firstly, increase the usage to around 4 or 6/day and you need to make some changes to the damage. Every point of Con damage is worth at least 2 Str or Dex damage, Str and Dex effects AC and to-hit/damage, but at a 2 to 1 basis while every two points of Con damage is 1*level hp damage as well as decreases fort saves. I suggest changing it to 1d6 Str or Dex damage or 1d3 Con damage.


It's weak in comparison to poisons. I'll make the dice 1d8 (1d4 for Con). That should make it an effective combat support trick; bringing the weapons to bear will finish the foe off.


Again you have a high level, restricted access ability with a 1/day usage! You really seem to like those, I suggest a 3/day at least, you could probably even go with 6/day because, this is grappling and in most cases the ninja will lose unless it is a humanoid you are targeting.

Why will the ninja lose? A ninja with 10 Str creates 30 Str Large arms. At 8th level, that's a +20 grapple check. 6/day? I just don't follow.

...I left off the crush damage. No wonder I'm being argued with.


This one I'd say is a 2/day worthy ability, not really powerful enough to be a bomb yet.

Again with the bombs. The ninja is not an offensive spellcaster. Shoving a victim into a hostile, undead-filled plane for a minute is a violent trick. Would it be better if I removed the escape clause?


This is a completely useless ability. Anyone who is building a character with the idea of using poisons will play a race that is either immune or has poison use built in.

Anyone building a poisoner has bigger issues. But I'd debate completely useless, as it hands out an increase to all poison DCs every time it's chosen. The safety is there for those few human poisoners.


This should be a constant boost and increase the poison's saves as well.

I'd consider the constant boost. Saves have already been touched.



I would shift this down to a level 2 or even 1 ability and of course increase the usage to 6/day with a fixed duration or 4/day with your limitless duration.

6/day will never happen. On anything. Ever. I may switch this for Con wounding, like the weapon ability.


This isn't really worthy of a 4th level ability, no more than 2 I'd say, it's just a fancy delivery system and again it has an extremely restrictive usage.

Leaving a poisonous cloud in the air for a minute isn't useful? I'd better tell those Cloudkill guys they're doing something wrong.

I'll look into a replacement, but I won't drop this one's level without some numbers showing that it's weaker than the poison effect of cloudkill and suchlike.

streakster
2008-10-21, 12:15 AM
That book again. I'm worried that you're looking at this based on the maneuvers in ToB. I'm not balancing it against ToB.

No, it really is the exact same name as a Swordsage Discipline. I don't think it needs changed, but that was what he meant.

Also, me likey Void.

afroakuma
2008-10-21, 12:17 AM
Also, me likey Void.

Thought you might :smallbiggrin:. Per day feeling just a bit better now? Now that ninjas can face down dragons?

streakster
2008-10-21, 12:31 AM
Thought you might :smallbiggrin:. Per day feeling just a bit better now? Now that ninjas can face down dragons?

Actually, surprisingly enough given my vehement hatred of them, yes. So you know it's good if got past that.

(That mental image of a ninja blocking a dragon's breath...)


Anywho -

Ki Vanish currently doesn't actually make the ninja vanish. Different name perhaps, or a bit more fluff plz?

Chill of the Void - just might want to clarify that "coating your weapon in the energy" does what you would think.

Watch your size tags.:smallsmile:


Hee...when this is done, I have got to find a DM who'll let me use it. I'm shouting "Void Palm!" whenever I use it...

afroakuma
2008-10-21, 06:55 AM
Alright, there has been some updating! In particular, check out the interaction between Shadow Arms and Shadow Shove. It's technically Shadow Pull when you do that...

Lord Tataraus
2008-10-21, 08:28 AM
The main reason I am referencing the spells is so that I don't have to go after their durations, ranges and full text while rushing to post these. I'd hate to replicate that much of the SRD right here. I can see your point on some of them, but the burning hands changes the damage die and adds a modifier. It doesn't alter the fundamentals of the spell, it just says "when you get to the damage, do this instead."
Well, I did say it was a pet peeve, but I know a lot of other people who get annoyed by this as well. In an online forum it's easier to look up so for now its just a minor annoyance.


An ability accessible at level 8 that does 12d8 + (3*Wis) total damage
for a non-caster (and is supernatural) is more powerful. I'll increase it to 2/day, but again, direct damage is not the ninja's strong suit. If you want the jutsu, it's available, but the ninja is a stealth combatant.
Ok, I guess 2/day is fine, you are right that it is an unusual ability for the ninja, at least its not a 1/day.


The fire elemental can charge through the ninja, stand in the same square as the ninja, be a fiery shield for the ninja or run around being a little pyromaniac for the ninja. It's probably a versatile effect overall. I'd consider increasing it to Large. I'll take a look at my MM and make the call tomorrow.
I would increase it to large right off the bat, but rather have it summon a medium one if the ninja is level 10-13, large 14-17, and huge 18-20. That way its still a bit behind the Summon Monster progression, but it still stays roughly on par with what you're fighting.


That book again. I'm worried that you're looking at this based on the maneuvers in ToB. I'm not balancing it against ToB.
As streakster mentioned, it is the exact same name as one of the main Swordsage discipline. However, in answer to your question, yes I am balancing this class in relation to the ToB classes in addition to others. The ToB are the most balanced martial classes ever and your ninjutsu abilities are almost exactly the same to the martial maneuvers except that they are per day instead of the per encounter. The use of per day abilities for a martial class is a huge detriment compared to the per encounter and lowers the power of the ninja overall, but I can look passed that since a 3/day or 4/day roughly equivalent to a per encounter ability, though somethings should come into effect more than once per encounter thus my suggestion of 6/day abilities making it roughly equivalent to slightly less than a 2/encounter ability. Also, your reaction to ToB seems to be an ignorant one with biases based on 3rd party biases. I highly suggest you look into more carefully, you can get the maneuver descriptions free from the wizards site as the maneuver cards here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) and reference the Shadow Hand, Desert Wind, and Tiger Claw maneuvers as examples of purely 1/encounter abilities.


...is there that much difference between 3 and 4? If you feel the need for another 3 uses, buy it next level. Again, it's a gateway to more powerful abilities. And yes, a rogue/ninja multiclass would quite enjoy it.
Yes, 3/day means you can use it in all but 1 combat on average and 4/day ensures you can use it in all combats on average. In games with higher combat rates the 4/day will seem like a lot more than 3/day since 3/day is already lagging behind in the average. But if you look at it, a rogue/ninja would only use this on the off chance that he can't get into a flanking position so it's really just security, not much else.


I could see 2/day. Further uses have to be bought.
I'm fine with that compromise, it is more of an out-of combat ability any way.


It's weak in comparison to poisons. I'll make the dice 1d8 (1d4 for Con). That should make it an effective combat support trick; bringing the weapons to bear will finish the foe off.
Weak?! Have you looked at the poisons? This is far superior, it offers no save. Most poisons have laughably low save DCs or are so ridiculously expensive no one ever buys them. Also, this can effect undead and other creatures immune to poison.


Why will the ninja lose? A ninja with 10 Str creates 30 Str Large arms. At 8th level, that's a +20 grapple check. 6/day? I just don't follow.

...I left off the crush damage. No wonder I'm being argued with.
Ok, with the additions this is fine.


Again with the bombs. The ninja is not an offensive spellcaster. Shoving a victim into a hostile, undead-filled plane for a minute is a violent trick. Would it be better if I removed the escape clause?
The Shadow Plane is not as bad as I think you think it is. There aren't any undead and creatures a few and far between and the Plane itself has no ill effects. With only a 1 minute duration the target would probably not be assualted by wandering creatures unless he was extremely unlucky. All this will usually do is remove someone from the combat for 1 minute without killing them unless the DM is really mean and uses it on a player and throws a bunch of creatures at him or the DM changes the RAW description and effects of the Shadow Plane.


Anyone building a poisoner has bigger issues. But I'd debate completely useless, as it hands out an increase to all poison DCs every time it's chosen. The safety is there for those few human poisoners.
Wasn't there a big (mostly one-sided) debate on how useless poisons were on the discussion thread where this same argument popped up?



I'd consider the constant boost. Saves have already been touched.
They can always be increased, and they need it!



6/day will never happen. On anything. Ever. I may switch this for Con wounding, like the weapon ability.
Why the hate for 6/day? You don't want anyone to use an ability twice in one combat?


Leaving a poisonous cloud in the air for a minute isn't useful? I'd better tell those Cloudkill guys they're doing something wrong.
Of poison? No. You even get a reflex save to get out in the first place. As I said, its a fancy delivery system for poison, and poisons suck. That's why I suggested giving abilities that don't use existing poisons, but rather in-built "poison" mechanics like your Shadow Knife Hand ability.


I'll look into a replacement, but I won't drop this one's level without some numbers showing that it's weaker than the poison effect of cloudkill and suchlike.
Just, look at the poisons! And remember, cloudkill doesn't require the caster to dump a couple thousand gold to be useful. I'm not saying make the ninja a caster, but don't work off the existing poison mechanics and the poison's themselves.

Ziegander
2008-10-21, 09:27 AM
I just have three things:

1) I like the changes you've made to the class and the jutsus on the whole.

2) On your comments about the Ninja not being a caster, or direct fire damage not being a "ninja thing:" If you are going to balance the power of certain effects based on the fact that you don't see them as "Ninja enough" then don't offer them at all.

3) I pretty much agree with what has been said about poisons, except that I don't find the poison use thing useless. It was exactly what I expected to be there as the first jutsu. You might add in that first one that you can craft poisons cheaper and gain a +2-4 bonus to Craft (Poisonmaking) checks though. I'm sure that'll win over the naysayers.

phoenixcire
2008-10-21, 10:38 AM
Am I just reading it wrong or do most of the jutsus require an unarmed attack? Why is this so? Do Ninjas no longer like weapons? Did they become more monkish?

afroakuma
2008-10-21, 10:53 AM
Phoenixcire: There's an Unarmed Attack tree coming up, and I've been putting forward the jutsus that happen to focus on what the ninja can do without weapons. Check out Hawk's Winds for a weapon jutsu.

About poisons: If someone is playing a poisoner in my games, I don't sell them poison. They go hunt stocks of it, salvage it from deadly beasts or cull some vicious flowers. I don't charge my players exorbitant gold to be worse at ability damage than a spellcaster.


2) On your comments about the Ninja not being a caster, or direct fire damage not being a "ninja thing:" If you are going to balance the power of certain effects based on the fact that you don't see them as "Ninja enough" then don't offer them at all.


Balance? I upped the damage cap. What I'm saying is that it's not a ninja thing to constanly throw around rays of fire. A few times a day as a supernatural power, yes, but having it show up more than once/twice in every combat? You're in the wrong class for doling out consistent fire damage. Let me introduce you to the sorcerer.


Well, I did say it was a pet peeve, but I know a lot of other people who get annoyed by this as well.

Again, it was a time issue. If I find the time, I'll write them out. I may just hotlink the d20srd.


However, in answer to your question, yes I am balancing this class in relation to the ToB classes in addition to others.

And I'm trying to balance it against the rogue, which was the initial criticism that got me onto this. You're telling me that crusader, swordsage and warblade are inherently more balanced than the rogue. I've looked through the book, saw a few things I like (there is already evidence of that in the stat block) and a lot of things I didn't, because it made everyone a caster of some sort, which is a lot like 4E. I don't happen to like 4E; I generally dislike the MMORPG feel. I've always felt that a well-thought melee class with reasonable gear could stand alongside casters (maybe not the cleric, but he's buffing himself - cheater).


Also, your reaction to ToB seems to be an ignorant one with biases based on 3rd party biases.

Ignorant? I'd like to think you mean well by that statement :smallconfused:... I have read the product. I liked some of what I saw, but again: I hated a lot of it. My personal views happen to differ from those of others; I, for example, hate the knight class on the principle that its abilities are ludicrous. Similarly, I ban the Goad feat because it's preposterous that a character is so annoying that anything will try to kill him. Giving mind-affecting abilities through an Extraordinary power or feat to a non-caster... I have issues.


The Shadow Plane is not as bad as I think you think it is. There aren't any undead and creatures a few and far between and the Plane itself has no ill effects.

MotP? PlH? I page through my monster resources, Libris Mortis and older sources for the Plane of Shadow, which suggest that it's got more than a few ghouls, ghasts and wraiths hanging about. Also shadar-kai, which are great.


All this will usually do is remove someone from the combat for 1 minute without killing them

So... what? Increase the duration? It's not supposed to be lethal, it's supposed to be disorienting. Not to mention, it does remove a foe from combat, and when combined with Shadow Arms can do so to some dragons. Also, there is no save against that effect, merely a Strength check.


Wasn't there a big (mostly one-sided) debate on how useless poisons were on the discussion thread where this same argument popped up?

Hence the "bigger issues" I mentioned.


Why the hate for 6/day? You don't want anyone to use an ability twice in one combat?

Not when they first acquire it, no. If you need it for your combat strategy, you buy more.


Just, look at the poisons! And remember, cloudkill doesn't require the caster to dump a couple thousand gold to be useful. I'm not saying make the ninja a caster, but don't work off the existing poison mechanics and the poison's themselves.

So really, it's poison mechanics as a whole that people have a problem with. Why don't I just discard the Snake Fang tree entirely?

Ziegander
2008-10-21, 11:02 AM
Don't ditch Poison Fang! It's too thematically awesome, and you can just adjust it to make the actual poisons better, easier to make, etc. But definitely leave it in.

streakster
2008-10-21, 11:12 AM
Don't ditch Poison Fang! It's too thematically awesome, and you can just adjust it to make the actual poisons better, easier to make, etc. But definitely leave it in.

Yeah! Hey, you could add some cool method of getting poison to the first jutsu. Some variant of the harvesting rules, for example. Or perhaps just the ability to create some doses of a basic poison several times a day.

Lord Tataraus
2008-10-21, 11:38 AM
About poisons: If someone is playing a poisoner in my games, I don't sell them poison. They go hunt stocks of it, salvage it from deadly beasts or cull some vicious flowers. I don't charge my players exorbitant gold to be worse at ability damage than a spellcaster.
That's all well and good, but you can't assume that this is the norm. RAW assumes you will be buying poisons, and even if you do collect the materials and craft your own, you are spending vasts amount of time on small portions. You can't judge balance of a class based on homebrew or individual groups unless you specifically state that that is part of the focus.


And I'm trying to balance it against the rogue, which was the initial criticism that got me onto this. You're telling me that crusader, swordsage and warblade are inherently more balanced than the rogue. I've looked through the book, saw a few things I like (there is already evidence of that in the stat block) and a lot of things I didn't, because it made everyone a caster of some sort, which is a lot like 4E. I don't happen to like 4E; I generally dislike the MMORPG feel. I've always felt that a well-thought melee class with reasonable gear could stand alongside casters (maybe not the cleric, but he's buffing himself - cheater).
No, I am not. The rogue is balanced with the ToB classes if built correctly (I don't mean cheesed-up, but moderate optimization which it seems most people do). Looking at the rogue, a moderately optimized character run by someone who knows how to play the class will get his SA damage on 80% of his attacks, most of which will be TWFing attacks in most cases, but there will be pauses to move around wherein only one attack is made, but it's still significant. Now the ninja is a lot more defensive in many respects than the average rogue, so the damage shouldn't be completely up their with the rogue, but he should be able to pull his stunts off at least alf the time the rogue does. An average fight lasts about 4-6 rounds for low to mid level play. In that time the rogue is almost guaranteed to get 1 SA off the first round. Then he will get an average of 3 full-attack TWF SAs off (assuming a 6-round combat). For a total (at low-level play) of 7 attacks with SA damage. The ninja should be able to match the rogue's 4 special attacks in that same round or at least get 3 of them. Quantity is usually more important than quality, people like to do cool stuff a lot more than one really cool thing once, it's all about options (which is incidentally why I don't like 4e, ToB has lots of options while 4e doesn't, but that debate should be carried elsewhere).


Ignorant? I'd like to think you mean well by that statement :smallconfused:... I have read the product. I liked some of what I saw, but again: I hated a lot of it. My personal views happen to differ from those of others; I, for example, hate the knight class on the principle that its abilities are ludicrous. Similarly, I ban the Goad feat because it's preposterous that a character is so annoying that anything will try to kill him. Giving mind-affecting abilities through an Extraordinary power or feat to a non-caster... I have issues.
Going off of the original thread your statements were all based on what you had heard and it seemed you had not actually looked at the book yourself, that's what I was going off of and I was encouraging you to look into it yourself. Since it seems you have looked into it yourself your opinions are now valid and I respect that. However, just because you dislike something doesn't mean you can ignore it. Since you are creating this class as an exercise to create a balanced ninja class you must take the most widely pronounced balanced classes into account. If you wish to depart from that original premise then I will ignore the ToB. However, since you still seem to have that original goal in mind you must balance this class against the Swordsage in the least.


MotP? PlH? I page through my monster resources, Libris Mortis and older sources for the Plane of Shadow, which suggest that it's got more than a few ghouls, ghasts and wraiths hanging about. Also shadar-kai, which are great.
Ok, you maybe be right, I have very little experience with the planes except for the basic DMG description and Shadow Magic from Tome of Magic.


So... what? Increase the duration? It's not supposed to be lethal, it's supposed to be disorienting. Not to mention, it does remove a foe from combat, and when combined with Shadow Arms can do so to some dragons. Also, there is no save against that effect, merely a Strength check.
My problem with the planar banishing effects is that it is completely variable in power based on DM judgment. For players using it I would consider it weak becomes the creatures will tend to just be removed which is definitely a boon, but not as much as imposing penalties or something to make it easier to kill. I wouldn't increase the duration, just the frequency it can be used. These types of powers are extremely hard to balance.


So really, it's poison mechanics as a whole that people have a problem with. Why don't I just discard the Snake Fang tree entirely?
My problem is in the use of outside mechanics which are extremely poor in design and execution (unless you want to tackle that monster). That is why I suggested a built-in poison mechanic that doesn't actually use poisons as defined by the rules, see my examples of Lotus Strike and Poisoned Blade. You did incorporate this in the Shadow Knife Hand and Deep Fang and I liked those abilities (with some minor tweaks needed). Oh, and don't ditch it, it represents a classic archetype of ninjas.

I'll review the Air Element and Void Element later when I have more time. Also, could you possibly copy the ninjutsu abilities into the OP? Just for convenience or at least a link to the post containing them so people don't get confused.

afroakuma
2008-10-21, 02:02 PM
You can't judge balance of a class based on homebrew or individual groups unless you specifically state that that is part of the focus.


Haven't been. I was indicating that anyone who allows a poisoner and then never hands over a poisonous monster or two to steal from is mean. The RAW allow for acquiring poisons from creatures. Not to mention, I am absolutely not balancing this class based on its poison tree.


The ninja should be able to match the rogue's 4 special attacks in that same round or at least get 3 of them.

I thought I mentioned before that I'm putting up the more supernatural abilities right now. Look back to Disengage for what a ninja's Martial Ninjutsu look like. Many of those are at will abilities, and form the core of a melee special attacker ninja. The ones I have now are for specialists, mostly. Void Hand FTW. The entire Air Element family FT2W.


If you wish to depart from that original premise then I will ignore the ToB. However, since you still seem to have that original goal in mind you must balance this class against the Swordsage in the least.

I'll look at the swordsage again; it's going to take a lot of time, as I'll have to go through all the relevant abilities. Bear in mind I'll be carrying a steep prejudice this round, since handing over spell-like abilities to fighter-types is something I'm a wee bit heavily against. I will attempt to keep a broad perspective.


For players using it I would consider it weak becomes the creatures will tend to just be removed which is definitely a boon, but not as much as imposing penalties or something to make it easier to kill.

You get time to set up against that creature's returning to the exact same spot, which is at minimum a surprise round. Also, it works regardless of type, there are few creatures immune to it and it helps against a mob with a deadly leader.


Also, could you possibly copy the ninjutsu abilities into the OP? Just for convenience or at least a link to the post containing them so people don't get confused.

I'll annex an earlier post with them. It would overly clutter the OP.

afroakuma
2008-10-21, 08:28 PM
The ninjutsu are in the fourth post as well, now.

I'll update both simultaneously for better access on this page.

afroakuma
2008-10-21, 11:29 PM
Alright, I scanned the DMG's limited set of poisons, and they are pretty harsh. I have updated Snake Fang to give a poisoner an even break. Possibly not the concessions you were looking for, but I imagine these will be helpful nonetheless.

Until I get more done, a few upcoming ninjutsu concepts to whet your appetites:

a Whirlwind Flyby Attack.

Insensibility

Employing Dex bonus to weapon damage instead of Str

The Water Element and Earth Element families

throwing one's senses up to 200 ft away

entering a foe's mind to stalk them

Mirror Image

Two words: Gemini Man

more Shadow Ninjutsu

and far more Martial Ninjutsu

afroakuma
2008-10-22, 10:28 AM
Ninjutsu Family: Star Ascendant

Cloud Vault Strike
Martial Ninjutsu
Family: Star Ascendant 1
Use: At will

The ninja may make a Jump check as part of a standard attack against a Large or larger creature. The DC is 12 +4 for every size category above Medium. On a success, the ninja leaps upwards while attacking, adding 2 + the ninja's Str bonus to to her attack roll. The attack deals an additional 2 damage per size category above Medium and adds the ninja's Str bonus.

Step of the Sky
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Star Ascendant 2
Use: 3/day

As the jump spell cast on the ninja.

Leap of the Stellar Aspirant
Martial Ninjutsu
Family: Star Ascendant 3
Use: At will

The ninja combines a Jump check (DC 20) with a Tumble check (DC 20) to leap over a foe. On a success on either check, the ninja performs a spinning leap over her foe while striking with a weapon, landing on the square behind her foe without provoking an attack of opportunity. Modify the DCs of these checks by adding 4 for each size category above Medium and subtracting 4 for each size category below. A failed check wastes a standard action and provokes an attack of opportunity. When using the full attack action, the ninja may continuously spin-jump her foe as long as she can end such a jump in an unoccupied space. If doing so, the foe becomes flat-footed until its next turn.

Art of Heaven's Path
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Star Ascendant 4
Use: 2/day

As the fly spell cast on the ninja. The ninja also gains Flyby Attack as a bonus feat.

Dance of the Cyclone
Martial Ninjutsu
Family: Star Ascendant 5
Use: 2/day

When moving using her Fly speed, the ninja may make a Whirlwind Attack (as the feat) as a standard action during her move. The ninja also gains Improved Flyby Attack as a bonus feat.

streakster
2008-10-22, 01:35 PM
Question - do I get flyby attack and IFA permanently, or only when using my ninja flight?

Edit: Even though this wouldn't stack well with Air Element, I want to master both anyway. That needs its own demotivator:

Flying Cyclone Ninja - Yeah, you're pretty much ....doomed.

Level20Commoner
2008-10-22, 01:39 PM
I like "Cloud Vault Strike" and "Leap of the Stellar Aspirant" (jumping and tumbling through an enemy in a blur is tops), but I would not give the ninja an actual outlet to flight in and of itself. I think it is very kewl that your homebrew ninja and my own homebrew ninja seem to be evolving in a similar direction. I will do what I can to help you, though my ideas about balance do not mesh well with the majority of Dnd 3.5 enthusiasts. I must admit I am somewhat jealous that your ninja is getting so much attention and my ninja only got one not-too-helpful comment so far. Do you think you could give my ninja a look? Since more forum dwellers have heard of you, the very fact that you commented (even if it was just a bump post) might generate a couple of ripple posts all by itself.

P.S. Remember, the closer you get to allowing the player to become a facsimile of one of the demon warriors from Ninja Scroll, the closer you are to a perfect design. :smallbiggrin:

afroakuma
2008-10-22, 02:08 PM
You get the bonus feats permanently.

Hawriel
2008-10-22, 03:47 PM
A ninja that doesnt use poison?

streakster
2008-10-22, 03:55 PM
A ninja that doesnt use poison?

Have thee a look at Snake Fang jutsu.

afroakuma
2008-10-22, 04:26 PM
I can't imagine how much shooting at me there would have been if I'd included poisons in the main class.

afroakuma
2008-10-22, 07:07 PM
I'm taking input on ninjutsu families. If anyone wants to contribute a ninjutsu family, post it here.

Rules:

The format:

Ninjutsu Family: Family name
Spoiler tag
Ninjutsu Name (Size 3, Color Navy)
Ninjutsu Type
Family: Name of family and place in family
Use: Number of uses
Speed: Optional, only used if speed is not one standard action.


Family must contain five ninjutsu, thematically connected.

Earth Element and Water Element are off limits.

Have at!

streakster
2008-10-23, 12:56 AM
Oni Ninjutsu Family -

Demon's Cruelty
Martial Ninjutsu
Family: Oni 1
Use: At will

You may make a single melee attack against a creature as part of this jutsu. If the attack deals damage to the creature, you may make a demoralizing Intimidate check against all opponents within 30 ft. of the creature struck, at a -4 penalty to the check.


Demon's Gaze
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Oni 2
Use: Constant.

The ninja gains glowing red eyes - these grant Darkvision 30 ft., and the ability to use detect magic, as the spell at will. In addition, they grant a +2 circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks.


Demon's Breath
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Oni 3
Use: 3/day

The ninja may exhale a cloud of thick, spark-laden smoke that lasts for 1d10 rounds, and fills a 20-ft cube centered on the ninja. The cloud blocks all sight within and through it, including darkvision. All within the cloud take Ė4 penalties to Strength and Dexterity (Fortitude negates, DC 10+ ninja's level). These effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or after the creature leaves the area of the cloud. Spell resistance does not apply. The ninja is immune to the effects of their own cloud.


Demon's Blades
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Oni 4
Use: 1/day
Speed:Swift Action

The ninja may enchant one weapon in his possession - this grants the weapon a total of 2 enhancements, which may be used to grant the blade the effects of one +2 enhancement, or two +1 enhancements. These effects last for one minute. If a good-aligned creature is slaughtered by a weapon while it is affected by this jutsu, the duration of this jutsu is reset to one minute. The effects that may be chosen from are:

Flaming
Flaming Burst
Unholy
Vicious
Wounding



Demon's Laughter
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Oni 5
Use: 2/day

As the spell confusion.


Bah. Needs work, but the idea is there.

afroakuma
2008-10-23, 06:26 AM
I like it. When you're satisfied with it let me know; I'll yoink it into the main thread.

streakster
2008-10-24, 02:18 PM
Ready if you want it - of course, it might still need some balancing, especially on times per day. I'm bad at that.

Celestial jutsu's might be upcoming if I ever have the time...

afroakuma
2008-10-24, 02:24 PM
I'll touch it up and steal it, then.

More should be forthcoming from me.

afroakuma
2008-10-25, 09:22 AM
Ninjutsu Family: Walk of Hours

Steps of the Lily
Martial Ninjutsu
Family: Walk of Hours 1
Use: Constant

The ninja may take a 10 ft. move instead of a 5 ft. step.

Waltz of the Moment
Personal Ninjutsu
Family: Walk of Hours 2
Use: Constant

The ninja gets a +1 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

Step Ahead of Time
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Walk of Hours 3
Use: 3/day
Speed: Swift action

As the haste spell cast on the ninja.

Art of Painting the Passage of a Moment
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Walk of Hours 4
Use: 2/day

The ninja can employ this jutsu in one of three ways:

1) She may increase the duration of any number of effects by up to 3 rounds. This includes spells, supernatural abilities and poisons, but does not affect anything with an instantaneous duration. A poison triggers its primary damage again, but if its secondary damage has already passed, it will not recur.

2) She may decrease the duration of any number of effects by 3 rounds. Anything that would have taken place during that time ceases to function. For example, if the ninja decreased a heat metal spell on its 2nd round, it would resume its effect as though on its 6th round, negating the worst of the spell. A poison whose secondary damage occurence is bypassed in this way can do no further harm.

3) She may collapse the duration of any number of effects by 3 rounds. Anything that would have taken place during that time happens all at once. As an example, an acid arrow cast by a 12th level sorcerer would deal 6d4 damage this round from acid and 2d4 on the next round before expiring. A poison whose secondary damage occurence is encompassed by this ability forces a save immediately with a -2 penalty for each round ahead of its time it was. If the ninja selects an effect that would allow a save each round, it allows three concurrent saves, with any successful save immediately negating the effect. The ninja may also select the fast healing ability for collapse.

The ninja may only select effects within 30' of her, and must be aware of the effect to choose it. If she does not know that a creature has been poisoned, there is nothing she can do. Similarly, the ninja will have to be aware that a creature has been enchanted to influence a charm person or haste spell. A guess does nothing. Detect magic and detect poisonwill reveal the necessary information in such cases.

Timelost Plunge
Energy Ninjutsu
Family: Walk of Hours 5
Use: 2/day

The ninja may distort time around a creature that she hits with a successful melee touch attack. The victim must make a Will save (DC 17 plus the ninja's Wis bonus) or be cut free from precision time. The creature's chronological fix begins to waver, distorting its perception and cognition. Living creatures and moving objects appear subject to a displacement effect (50% miss chance), immobile objects are blurred (20% miss chance) and detail is impossible to make out, rendering Spot checks, sneak attacks, reading and listening impossible. Additionally, the creature has a -6 penalty on AC and Reflex saves and must make a Concentration check (DC 17+ninja's Wis bonus+spell level) to cast spells. Blind-Fight, tremorsense and blindsight are negated while in a chronic blur. Chronic blurring lasts 2d6 rounds plus the ninja's Wis bonus. This ability is the equivalent of a 7th level spell.

Lord Tataraus
2008-10-25, 11:35 AM
Wow, I am behind on destroying critiquing your work :smalltongue:

So, after finally getting through all of your edits and new ninjutsu I must say I think you've improved in their creation, I don't see much that needs balancing. OF course there are a few abilities slightly strong than others and I do have some hesitation with the Viper Fang and the gust of wind abilities in the Air Element, that's a difficult one to assess. So, beyond that I am impressed and statisfied with anything I don't comment on below.

Streakster: I'll tackle your Oni abilities next.


Art of Painting the Passage of a Moment
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Walk of Hours 4
Use: 2/day

The ninja can employ this jutsu in one of three ways:

1) She may increase the duration of any number of effects by up to 3 rounds. This includes spells, supernatural abilities and poisons, but does not affect anything with an instantaneous duration. A poison triggers its primary damage again, but if its secondary damage has already passed, it will not recur.

2) She may decrease the duration of any number of effects by 3 rounds. Anything that would have taken place during that time ceases to function. For example, if the ninja decreased a heat metal spell on its 2nd round, it would resume its effect as though on its 6th round, negating the worst of the spell. A poison whose secondary damage occurence is bypassed in this way can do no further harm.

3) She may collapse the duration of any number of effects by 3 rounds. Anything that would have taken place during that time happens all at once. As an example, an acid arrow cast by a 12th level sorcerer would deal 6d4 damage this round from acid and 2d4 on the next round before expiring. A poison whose secondary damage occurence is encompassed by this ability forces a save immediately with a -2 penalty for each round ahead of its time it was. If the ninja selects an effect that would allow a save each round, it allows three concurrent saves, with any successful save immediately negating the effect. The ninja may also select the fast healing ability for collapse.
My problem with this is more a matter of confusion. What effects can the ninja target? Can he target anything he is aware of? Effects only on or created by himself? Those on or created by his allies? If it is all-encompassing, I think its a bit too powerful. IF its more of effects on or created by his allies (including himself) then I think it would be more balanced.

afroakuma
2008-10-25, 11:44 AM
She can shave 18 seconds off of or add 18 seconds to any number of local effects that she is personally aware of. I'll add an area limiter, and see how that goes.

That said, I'm not sure I like it as an ability. I may think of something better.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-24, 11:05 AM
There was... a lot of opposition (read: exponential) to Sudden Strike. Since I'm trying to make the ninja distinct from the rogue, I can't juts hand over Sneak Attack.

I figure combat specialization can be bought on your own time (read: Feats). The ninja now gets to choose four martial and two exotic weapons for proficiency. Ninjutsu combined with the class features should balance it.

Opinions? Do I really need the combat boosts? (Weapon Focus et. al)?

Why not have some ability like:
Silent but Deadly (Ex or Su):
At level 1, Ninja deal extra damage whenever enemy is flatfooted or denied Dex to AC. He deals an extra 1d4 per Ninja Level. And the target must make a Fort save (DC 10+1/2 level + Ninja's choice Wis) or be silenced for 1 round.
This ability counts as Sneak attack for prerequisites at 1/2 rate (so 2d4 Silent damage= 1d6 Sneak damage.

Themetically, it fits because Ninja wouldn't want the target to be able to shout out an alarm. It is different than sneak attack, but not more powerful overall.
But it gives a really good reason to stick with the class.

An Ninjutsu Idea:


Ninjutsu Family: Spider's Websack

Web Strand[/COLOR]
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Spider's Websack 1
Use: 3/day

As the Psionic power, Entangling Ectoplasm. Although, the strand of webbing will affect a target up to one size larger than the ninja.

Spiderís Calling
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Spider's Websack 2
Use: 2/day

As Summon Monster I, except that you call forth 2 small spiders that can attack immediately.

Webbing Cocoon
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Spider's Websack 3
Use: 2/day

This can be used as the spell, web, or the psionic power, Ectoplasmic cocoon. If using Cocoon version, you can affect up to one size larger than yourself with a +1 DC.

Web shooters
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Spider's Websack 4
Use: 2/day

As Druid spell, Kelpstrand, but the bonus +4 applies to foes within 30 feet of a web (magical or mundane).

Spiderís Bite
Shadow Ninjutsu
Family: Spider's Websack 5
Use: 2/day

This emulates Wu Jen spell, Snake Bite: But spiders are shot at the foe instead of Snakes. The Ninja can shoot to deal the original Con damage version in Complete Arcane or maybe instead deal Str damage of same amount.

Human Paragon 3
2009-02-24, 12:05 PM
Did you take away sudden strike? I don't see it in the OP. This ninja will really blow without some kind of precision damage.