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View Full Version : [3.5] Advanced Learning/Getting Spells from another spell lists.



jcsw
2008-10-28, 09:26 AM
Several classes and prestige classes have the ability to gain a spell from another spellcasting class's spell list. I know of beguiler and recaster as two classes which can do this.

However, I need to get a specific spell, namely body outside body, a level 7 arcane spell from the Wu Jen's spell list, for a build I want to try out... Does anyone know of any more efficient way of getting this?

(Efficient in terms of 1. Spending the least feats/levels on it, and 2. Getting it as early as possible)
(The build is still in it's infancy, so my base class is still open, but the most likely choice is sorcerer or wizard...)

OverdrivePrime
2008-10-28, 09:35 AM
(Efficient in terms of 1. Spending the least feats/levels on it, and 2. Getting it as early as possible)
(The build is still in it's infancy, so my base class is still open, but the most likely choice is sorcerer or wizard...)

There's a feat on pages 79-80 of the Complete Arcane book called "Extra Spell" which allows you to learn one additional spell of any level up to one lower than the highest level spell you can currently cast. To take it you need to be able to cast third level spells.

There is nothing in the text which states that this feat can't be used to gain spells from other class spell lists, and the example given is of a wizard using it to learn a spell that he lacks access to and would be unable to research.

My gishes like to use this spell to grab the wu jen spell, Giant Size.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-28, 09:43 AM
There is nothing in the text which states that this feat can't be used to gain spells from other class spell lists,
Actually, there are several things that state exactly that, including the D&D FAQ. Even though it makes the feat pretty much worthless, I do believe that most DMs (around here, at least) rule it that way.

OverdrivePrime
2008-10-28, 10:07 AM
Actually, there are several things that state exactly that, including the D&D FAQ. Even though it makes the feat pretty much worthless, I do believe that most DMs (around here, at least) rule it that way.

All I can find on the matter is an opinion by the Sage from long ago, and I think we can agree that he's fairly hit or miss with accurate interpretation of RAI. Read as written, the feat says, "you learn a spell".

If there's official errata on the matter, it hasn't made it to the Offical Updates page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) and this is a feat that turns four years old next month.

If jcsw's DM rules against it, then that's that, but for my own games, I see zero reason to change the feat from how it appears in the book. You blow a feat to get one spellin return that is not of your highest level. Hardly game breaking. Most people wouldn't make that sacrifice unless they're going for a particular thematic feel.

As an alternative, I think most reasonable DMs would allow a wizard to research the spell at one or two levels higher.

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EDIT: Just found the statement from Wizards here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080430a)

So, officially it doesn't work and that makes me sad. I'll be keeping it in my house rules as it allows players to have more fun with their characters and enhance a caster's theme if they think that's important.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-28, 03:47 PM
Actually, there are several things that state exactly that, including the D&D FAQ. Even though it makes the feat pretty much worthless, I do believe that most DMs (around here, at least) rule it that way.Read the sig. FAQ/Sage/CustServ rule any number of stupid/self-contradictory/flat out wrong ways, and really should not be mentioned in a discussion. The feat's not OP if it does allow other classes spells, either. We're talking a feat here, it needs to be on the same level of usefulness as at least Spell Focus.

Toliudar
2008-10-28, 04:01 PM
As an alternative, any chance of making a 1/day activation item of that spell, the price of which is negotiated with the DM?

Riffington
2008-10-28, 05:04 PM
Read the sig. FAQ/Sage/CustServ rule any number of stupid/self-contradictory/flat out wrong ways, and really should not be mentioned in a discussion.

They are a useful resource, comparable to RAW or "asking a good DM", though obviously not as perfect as "asking your DM".

Kurald Galain
2008-10-28, 05:30 PM
Read the sig. FAQ/Sage/CustServ rule any number of stupid/self-contradictory/flat out wrong ways, and really should not be mentioned in a discussion.
That's a load of nonsense. Just because custserv made a mistake or two doesn't mean they should always get ignored. The assertion that they've made frequent contradictory answers is wildly exaggerated and frankly I've never seen anybody who made that claim bother to back it up with, you know, actual evidence. They're usually quite good at shutting down munchkinly loopholes, viz the Book of Hotly Debated Topics.

Temp.
2008-10-28, 05:39 PM
Actually, there are several things that state exactly that, including the D&D FAQ. Even though it makes the feat pretty much worthless, I do believe that most DMs (around here, at least) rule it that way. This always confuses me. WotC releases Martial Study and Expanded Knowledge, which explicitly let you take Maneuvers and Powers from any class list, and then decides that the ambiguously-worded Extra Spell doesn't work that way. It's ridiculous.

Anyway, if that feat doesn't work, just have your Wizard independently research the spell. Wu Jen spells fill about the same niches as Wizard spells and should probably be about the same level. Maybe raise it to a level 7 spell if you have to.

Tokiko Mima
2008-10-28, 06:21 PM
Actually, there are several things that state exactly that, including the D&D FAQ. Even though it makes the feat pretty much worthless, I do believe that most DMs (around here, at least) rule it that way.

Extra Spell, by the way, is awesome when paired up with Bonus Feat class feature of Chameleons. It lets a Chameleon scribe a single spell for free into his arcane Spellbook, which could be any possible arcane spell available within the campaign that is below the Chameleon's maximum spell level. Given a few months, a Chameleon would easily become independently wealthy just selling rare and hard to acquire spells to various wizardly concerns.

Riffington
2008-10-28, 06:35 PM
This always confuses me. WotC releases Martial Study and Expanded Knowledge, which explicitly let you take Maneuvers and Powers from any class list, and then decides that the ambiguously-worded Extra Spell doesn't work that way. It's ridiculous.


Well, the Martial Schools are designed to be of roughly equal power, at each level. This is almost true of psionic powers.

But spell lists are not designed this way at all. Sometimes half-casters are given powerful spells at a similar character level as full-casters (meaning they get those spells at a much lower spell level than the level would be for a full caster). If you look at what some players try to pull with a questionable interpretation of Chameleon... they imagined a player trying something like that with a Cleric and shuddered.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 06:36 PM
Well, the Martial Schools are designed to be of roughly equal power, at each level. This is almost true of psionic powers.

But spell lists are not designed this way at all. Sometimes half-casters are given powerful spells at a similar character level as full-casters (meaning they get those spells at a much lower spell level than the level would be for a full caster). If you look at what some players try to pull with a questionable interpretation of Chameleon... they imagined a player trying something like that with a Cleric and shuddered.

Or for a Paladin with the Battle Blessing feat. Hooray, auto-swift spells. Sure, it's gotta be 4th or less, but, y'know, there are ways.

Keld Denar
2008-10-28, 06:48 PM
The Wyrm Wizard PrC from one of the two dragon books (Races of Dragon or Dragon Magic, probably the latter) allows your to yank any spell from any spell list at 2 points during progression. Unfortunately, its only 8/10 casting IIRC, which violates rule 3 or 4 or character optimization, but could fall under the exclusion if its for a very good reason.

Is it a very good reason?

And I think the worst offender of cross-polination would be a wiz gish with Divine Powah.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-28, 07:32 PM
That's a load of nonsense. Just because custserv made a mistake or two doesn't mean they should always get ignored. The assertion that they've made frequent contradictory answers is wildly exaggerated and frankly I've never seen anybody who made that claim bother to back it up with, you know, actual evidence. They're usually quite good at shutting down munchkinly loopholes, viz the Book of Hotly Debated Topics.From the ToB Q&A thread, which compiled CustServ responses to e-mail about issues with ToB. Q When using the high level diamond mind manuver Time stands still, you can make two full attack actions in a row seperate from each other. Suppose you normally get 5 attacks, three from base attack and two more from two weapon and improved two weapon fighting. You use Raging Mongoose to gain two attacks with each weapon at your highest base attack, this ability lasts for one round. Does Raging mongoose let you make two extra attacks with each weapon for each full attack action, or does the limit of two attacks for each weapon apply only for the first full attack.

A You can make two extra attacks for each full attack action that you make with this combination. So you would get the extra attacks in the first full attack action, and get them again in the second full attack action.Q I read on the boards that a forum member asked you how Raging/Dancing Mongoose worked with Time Stand Still, and you replied that you get the extra attacks per full attack action, so you would get double the attacks from Raging/Dancing mongoose using Time Stand Still.
Now I looked the maneuvers over in Tome of Battle, and I can't figure out why that is. The maneuver states that it last until end of turn and you get some extra attacks per weapon wielded (max of 2 or 4), nowhere in the maneuver is it said that the extra attacks come per full attack action. If you read about being hasted, it very specificly says you get the extra attack as part of a full attack action and therefore you will get an extra hasted attack from using Time Stand Still. But I can't see why you would get double bonus from Dancing/Raging Mongoose.

So my question is, why did you rule it that way? Have I overlooked something or?

A Hmm.. Not sure who answered it that way, but they must have misunderstood the question! You could initiate Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose, and Raging Mongoose would give you four extra attacks that turn, two with each weapon you wield! But only four. not Eight. You would be able to choose which full attack action to apply the extra attacks to during your turn.Q Dear CustServ,

Recently on the optimization boards, two of our members sent in queries concerning Tome of Battle and got two seemingly contradictory answers, which one is the correct one?Q For the Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous throw ability, when it says "you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn" does this apply to all aspects of the ranged attack? I.e. Does the character basically replace all his ranged attacks with melee attacks with respect to feats (combat rhythm from the stormguard warrior feat, for example, could the touch attacks for that be made at range with this ability?), damage (do you basically replace the possible ranged damage with melee damage) and things you can do with melee attacks (i.e. tripping, disarming and suchlike, without requiring the ranged disarm or ranged trip feat or ability respectively)?

A If you couldn't normally do these things at range, then you couldn't now. All this ability does is substitute your Strength bonus for your Dexterity bonus, and allows you to use feats that affect your attack bonus for melee attacks and such. Ultimately all this changes is how you determine your attack bonus. You could use this in conjunction with Stormguard Warrior's, combat rhythm ability, but keep in mind that you do no damage when this occurs (until the next round of course).Q Does Stormguard Warrior's Combat Rhythm damage bonus apply to ranged attacks made with Thunderous Throw? Furthermore, are damage rolls when using Thunderous Throw considered melee damage rolls?

A The answer is yes. Since your Ranged attacks are considered Melee attacks, the damage is Melee damage. With the Combat Rhythm tactical option these attacks would be Melee touch attacks.Thanks for helping to sort out this confusion.

A Thunderous Throw does allow you to deal melee damage with your ranged attacks rather than ranged damage. That is the intent.

Both those answers state that you can use Thunderous Throw and Combat Rhythm in conjunction with one another. But damage is not dealt when you first use Combat Rhythm with your Thunderous Throws. The fact that Combat Rhythm's states that you don't deal damage with the melee attack trumps the fact that you are dealing melee damage with Thunderous Throw. The bonus to melee damage on the following round does apply to your Thunderous Throw damage, however

Riffington
2008-10-28, 07:46 PM
I see your (minor) concern with the first example. What was wrong with the second example?

jcsw
2008-10-28, 08:58 PM
If it helps, the build is, in fact, quite cheesy. It involves the fact that bardic music abilities can be used with body outside body clones, and taking 5 levels in Heartfire Fanner, which at level 5 grants a total of 9 levels of Bardic Music Ability (if you did not have bardic music ability before this).

So a Wu Jen 7/Heartfire Fanner 5/Bardic PrC With Arcane Spellcasting Progression 1 would have access to both, and be able to... say... stack inspire courage, dragonfire inspiration and other things, becoming a really potent buffer.

+Infinity cheese points for using your clones to grant you feats, and taking Lyric Spell and 2xExtra Song to gain another casting of Body Outside Body, then using your other clone from the first spell to Grant you three random feats.... etc.

Darrin
2008-10-29, 08:40 AM
However, I need to get a specific spell, namely body outside body, a level 7 arcane spell from the Wu Jen's spell list, for a build I want to try out... Does anyone know of any more efficient way of getting this?


Will the Trickery Devotion work for what you're trying to do? Creates a duplicate, although only one version can cast spells at a time.

Easiest way to get this spell would be Wu Jen 13.

A Wizard 12/Wyrm Wizard 2 can get body outside body at ECL 14, but you lose a caster level.

A kobold Sorcerer 13/Wyrm Wizard 2 can get it, and can get back the lost caster level with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage.

Paul H
2008-11-03, 03:50 PM
Hi

Recaster works, as you've already mentioned. There's also UMD. Think it's DC 25 pus spell level, or something.

If the spell is also on the Wizard spell list, there's an option for Advanced Learning, (think it's in PHBII). Where you can use a spell of any school, but it has to be of at least one level lower. Beguilers can add any spell from Illusion/Enchantment to their list. But instead you could take an Evocation spell instead. Eg, instead of taking 3rd lvl spell, you could take Scorching Ray, but it would count as a 3rd lvl spell.

Cheers
Paul H