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Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 09:58 AM
Now, this is relevant:

Master Spellthief
Your arcane studies allow you to mingle arcane magic of different flavors for great effect.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells, steal spell.

Benefit: Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief.

Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells.

In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor. You incur the normal arcane spell failure chance when wearing medium or heavy armor or when using a shield.

Special: A spellthief does not incur a chance of arcane spell failure when casting spellthief spells in light armor. He incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for other arcane spells he casts, including those stolen from arcane casters.

I've underlined the relevant bit.

This means that you could potentially do something like Sorceror 2/Wizard 2/Spellthief 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Spellthief 5 (I dunno the prereqs for UM off the top of my head, so that build may be impossible, but the point is made). In that build you'd wind up stacking your spellthief levels on top of your Sorc and Wiz levels to determine your CL--sort of a poor man's theurge. Yes, you're not getting more spells per day and you're not learning more spells (at lesat, not learning them on your sorceror side), but your CL is increasing.

I just thought it was a funky little bit of mechanic, especially since one could go Wiz 1/Sor 1/Wu Jen 1/Warmage 1/Bard 1/Spellthief 15, take the feat, and have a CL of 16 in all six classes.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-28, 10:46 AM
Now, this is relevant:

Master Spellthief
Your arcane studies allow you to mingle arcane magic of different flavors for great effect.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells, steal spell.

Benefit: Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief.

Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells.

In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor. You incur the normal arcane spell failure chance when wearing medium or heavy armor or when using a shield.

Special: A spellthief does not incur a chance of arcane spell failure when casting spellthief spells in light armor. He incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for other arcane spells he casts, including those stolen from arcane casters.

I've underlined the relevant bit.

This means that you could potentially do something like Sorceror 2/Wizard 2/Spellthief 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Spellthief 5 (I dunno the prereqs for UM off the top of my head, so that build may be impossible, but the point is made). In that build you'd wind up stacking your spellthief levels on top of your Sorc and Wiz levels to determine your CL--sort of a poor man's theurge. Yes, you're not getting more spells per day and you're not learning more spells (at lesat, not learning them on your sorceror side), but your CL is increasing.

I just thought it was a funky little bit of mechanic, especially since one could go Wiz 1/Sor 1/Wu Jen 1/Warmage 1/Bard 1/Spellthief 15, take the feat, and have a CL of 16 in all six classes.


ya but you still be only casting 1st level spells.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 10:47 AM
ya but you still be only casting 1st level spells.

True, but that's only because I haven't found a way to break it yet.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-28, 11:00 AM
True, but that's only because I haven't found a way to break it yet.

Combine it with Ur-Priest.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 11:01 AM
I would, but for that Ur-Priest isn't arcane.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-28, 11:06 AM
True, but that's only because I haven't found a way to break it yet.
Although you could do

spellthief 1/ wizard 3/ duskblade 3/ sorc 1/Wu Jen 1/Warmage 1/Bard 1/beguiler 1/ spell thief 8

so your caster levels would be
Spelltheif 20
Wizard 12
duskblade 12
sorc 10
wu jen 10
warmage 10
bard 10
beguiler 10

but you can channel most of the spells into attacks via the duskblade and you would have sneak attack dmg..

So flank then throw your touch attack spells into arcane channel.

Keld Denar
2008-10-28, 04:33 PM
Spellthief is a spontanious caster, correct? What about something like this.

Spellthief1/Wizard5/UM10/

Normally, this would give you a CL something like of 11 for ST and 15 for Wizard. Now, if you took MST somewhere in there, would your CL for one or the other then be 26?

I know UM doesn't give 10/10 CL both sides, but how would MST interact with which side was the "highest CL". I know you can used Practiced Spellcaster to mess with the way UM levels get added on, but could you do this with MST too?

Hmmm, I gotta go look for my copy of Complete Mage. This is an intriguing abuse of CL that can only lead to fun!

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 04:39 PM
Spellthief is a spontanious caster, correct? What about something like this.

Spellthief1/Wizard5/UM10/

Normally, this would give you a CL something like of 11 for ST and 15 for Wizard. Now, if you took MST somewhere in there, would your CL for one or the other then be 26?

I know UM doesn't give 10/10 CL both sides, but how would MST interact with which side was the "highest CL". I know you can used Practiced Spellcaster to mess with the way UM levels get added on, but could you do this with MST too?

Hmmm, I gotta go look for my copy of Complete Mage. This is an intriguing abuse of CL that can only lead to fun!

You'd need to be Spellthief 5 to be able to do that, but I think you're on to something.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-28, 04:44 PM
You'd need to be Spellthief 5 to be able to do that, but I think you're on to something.

Why do you need spell thief 5?

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 04:48 PM
Why do you need spell thief 5?

Spellthieves are halfcasters and don't actually get (natural) spellcasting until fifth level. And, unfortunately, Steal Spell doesn't qualify you for stuff--I confirmed this with CustServ because otherwise it'd be The Most Broken Thing Everô.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-28, 04:51 PM
Spellthieves are halfcasters and don't actually get (natural) spellcasting until fifth level. And, unfortunately, Steal Spell doesn't qualify you for stuff--I confirmed this with CustServ because otherwise it'd be The Most Broken Thing Everô.

yes but the 2nd level arcane spells don't need to come from the spell thief side....


You can basicaly take 1 level of Spellthief for the steal spell ability then take 3 levels of wizard and qualify for the feat.

Keld Denar
2008-10-28, 04:52 PM
What about ST5/Wiz1? I'm at work right now (obviously working hard!) and don't have access to CM on me. What are the prereqs to UM? What is the CL progression of UM? How can we possibly cheeze this to get CL30 by level 20? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW!!!!

I smell Maw of Chaos shananananananananananananagans....

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 05:03 PM
What about ST5/Wiz1? I'm at work right now (obviously working hard!) and don't have access to CM on me. What are the prereqs to UM? What is the CL progression of UM? How can we possibly cheeze this to get CL30 by level 20? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW!!!!

I smell Maw of Chaos shananananananananananananagans....

HEY GUESS WHAT (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3) its excerpted.

EDIT: Looking at it, earliest is Spellthief 5/Wizard 3.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-28, 05:18 PM
HEY GUESS WHAT (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3) its excerpted.

EDIT: Looking at it, earliest is Spellthief 5/Wizard 3.

Its spell thief 4 /wizard 3... spell thiefs get there first level spells at 4th. Technicaly its 0 spell but if they have bonus spells they get em. regardless they qualify at 4th.

Keld Denar
2008-10-28, 05:22 PM
HEY GUESS WHAT (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3) its excerpted.

EDIT: Looking at it, earliest is Spellthief 5/Wizard 3.

Can I get a copy/paste? Someone over here cast a "Wall of Fire" that blocks off the whole wizards.com domain.

Where'd I leave that Quench spell....
grumble grumble

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 05:23 PM
Its spell thief 4 /wizard 3... spell thiefs get there first level spells at 4th. Technicaly its 0 spell but if they have bonus spells they get em. regardless they qualify at 4th.

Point taken. So, Spellthief 4/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 10/Spellwarp Sniper 3 should have...interesting results.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-28, 05:27 PM
Can I get a copy/paste? Someone over here cast a "Wall of Fire" that blocks off the whole wizards.com domain.

Where'd I leave that Quench spell....
grumble grumble

use a proxy?

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 05:32 PM
Copypasta!

Entry Requirements

Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks.
Feats: Any metamagic feat.
Spellcasting: Able to spontaneously cast 1st-level arcane spells, able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook.

Class Features

As an ultimate magus, you are a connoisseur of both prepared and spontaneous magic. You not only learn to cast both types of spells, but to use one art to augment the other -- particularly in the realm of metamagic effects.

Spellcasting: At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of those classes would have gained.

At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in your arcane spellcasting class with the lowest caster level. For example, a 4th-level wizard/1st-level sorcerer who gained one level of ultimate magus would gain increased spellcasting ability as if he had gained a level of sorcerer (since that class's caster level is lower than his wizard caster level). If all your arcane spellcasting classes have equal caster levels, you can apply this benefit to any of your existing arcane spellcasting classes. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of those classes would have gained.

Arcane Spell Power (Ex): At 1st level, your caster level for all arcane spells increases by 1. It increases again at 4th level, 7th level, and 10th level (to a maximum of +4).

Expanded Spell Knowledge (Ex): At 2nd level, you can select one 0- or 1st-level arcane spell from your spellbook and add it to the list of arcane spells known for a spontaneous casting class, even if you can't yet spontaneously cast spells of that level.(In this case, you would know the spell but wouldn't be able to cast it until you had spell slots of the appropriate level.)

You can add another spell from your spellbook to your list of spells known every two levels thereafter. At 4th level, this can be a 0-, 1st-, or 2nd-level spell. At 6th level, this can be any spell of 3rd level or lower. At 8th level, this spell can be of 4th level or lower, and at 10th level it can be of 5th level or lower.

Augmented Casting (Su): Starting at 3rd level, you can choose to sacrifice a spell or spell slot from one of your classes to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know to a spell cast using another arcane class. (For instance, you could sacrifice a sorcerer slot to apply a metamagic effect to a wizard spell.) This sacrificed spell or slot is lost (just as if you had cast the spell) in addition to the spell you are actually casting.

The level of the spell to be augmented can't exceed 1/2 your class level. For example, when you first gain this ability, you can only apply a metamagic effect to 1st-level spells. A 10th-level ultimate magus can affect spells of 5th level or lower.

The level of the spell slot sacrificed must equal or exceed the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. To empower a spell, for example, you would have to spend a 2nd-level or higher spell. You can't use this ability to augment a spell already affected by a metamagic feat.

You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 your class level.

Bonus Feat: At 5th level, and again at 9th level, you can select a bonus metamagic feat for which you meet the prerequisites.


Table 3-9: The Ultimate Magus Hit Die: d4
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spellcasting
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Arcane spell power +1 +1 level of lower-level existing arcane casting class
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Expanded spell knowledge (1st level or lower) +1 level of existing prepared arcane casting class and +1 level of existing spontaneous arcane casting class
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Augmented casting +1 level of existing prepared arcane casting class and +1 level of existing spontaneous arcane casting class
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Arcane spell power +2, expanded spell knowledge (2nd level or lower) +1 level of lower-level existing arcane casting class
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Bonus feat +1 level of existing prepared arcane casting class and +1 level of existing spontaneous arcane casting class
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Expanded spell knowledge (3rd level or lower) +1 level of existing prepared arcane casting class and +1 level of existing spontaneous arcane casting class
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 Arcane spell power +3 +1 level of lower-level existing arcane casting class
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Expanded spell knowledge (4th level or lower) +1 level of existing prepared arcane casting class and +1 level of existing spontaneous arcane casting class
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 Bonus feat +1 level of existing prepared arcane casting class and +1 level of existing spontaneous arcane casting class
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Arcane spell power +4, expanded spell knowledge (5th level or lower) +1 level of existing prepared arcane casting class and +1 level of existing spontaneous arcane casting class

The table's kinda janky, but it works.

Temp.
2008-10-28, 05:52 PM
The problem I see with the Spellthief Ultimate Magus is that Spellthief is going to eat all the lower-casting advancement levels by merit of being a half-caster. That means at the end of your UM build, you'd wind up with 7th level wizard spells and the ability to steal 3rd level spells and recast 2nd level spells at twentieth level.

If you stretch RAW (pretending UM and SWS are classes that "grant" arcane casting), you might get away with stealing 9th-level spells.


Sorta... underwhelming either way if you ask me.

[edit:]Note to self: Count caster levels before commenting on them.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 05:54 PM
If you stretch RAW (pretending UM and SWS are classes that "grant" arcane casting), you might get away with stealing 9th-level spells.

...that's "stretching"? I was under the impression "+1 spellcasting level" meant "grants spellcasting". Still, that's neither here nor there.

We're not talking about the thievery ability at the core of this--we're talking about stacking caster levels for craziness.

Temp.
2008-10-28, 06:00 PM
...that's "stretching"? I was under the impression "+1 spellcasting level" meant "grants spellcasting". Still, that's neither here nor there.I've been called enough times for stacking these that I was starting to get the impression I'd been wrong. I agree with your interpretation, but I get the impression that most other people don't.

...Or the ones who don't just speak up more often.

Anyway, I realized after posting that I was under the flawed assumption that UM would give its 1st, 4th and 7th-level spellcasting to the Spellthief, when that apparently isn't the case.

Monstrodoom
2008-10-28, 06:14 PM
So is the ridiculous stinky cheese laying under all this that each level of UM effectively gives 2 or 4 CL to your theurge, based on the extremely vague wording of that feat?

And are there any uncapped ray spells that would be able to truly take advantage of that?

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 06:19 PM
So is the ridiculous stinky cheese laying under all this that each level of UM effectively gives 2 or 4 CL to your theurge, based on the extremely vague wording of that feat?Essentially.


And are there any uncapped ray spells that would be able to truly take advantage of that?

The only thing I can think of that'd be ZOMGAtrocious would be the poison spell, but that's druid-only. It does mean, however, that rounds/minutes/hours per level would be a lot higher.

Keld Denar
2008-10-28, 06:36 PM
Ok, so lets say that our aspiring young Thurge Thief (call him Cax Felestis) is a level 1 Spell Thief. Now, upon reaching level 7, Cax is a ST4/Wiz3, and takes Master Spelltheif as his 6th level feat. Cax now has a CL of 7 for ST, and 7 for Wizard, correct? Now, Cax takes a level of UM. UM1 grants a +1 existing caster level for whichever has the lower CL. Since both ST and Wiz have the same CL, which ones gets more spells/day? At this point, you take UM2, which gives +1 level to both. This means you are either a ST5/Wiz5 or ST6/Wiz4 for arcane caster levels, and have an effective CL of 10? At level 9? And again, at 10th level, you gain UM3, which gives both, and gives you a CL of 12 at ECL10? Hmmmm, I think something is hatching for our good friend Cax.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 06:43 PM
Now, Cax takes a level of UM. UM1 grants a +1 existing caster level for whichever has the lower CL. Since both ST and Wiz have the same CL, which ones gets more spells/day?
If all your arcane spellcasting classes have equal caster levels, you can apply this benefit to any of your existing arcane spellcasting classes.
At this point, you take UM2, which gives +1 level to both. This means you are either a ST5/Wiz5 or ST6/Wiz4 for arcane caster levels, and have an effective CL of 10? At level 9? And again, at 10th level, you gain UM3, which gives both, and gives you a CL of 12 at ECL10? Hmmmm, I think something is hatching for our good friend Cax.

Going with your plan it'd look something like this

Spellthief 1 (CL 0)
Spellthief 2 (CL 1)
Spellthief 3 (CL 1)
Spellthief 4 (CL 2)
Wizard 1 (CL 1)/Spellthief 4 (CL 2)
Wizard 2 (CL 6)/Spellthief 4 (CL 6) - Master Spellthief Feat
Wizard 3 (CL 7)/Spellthief 4 (CL 7)
Ultimate Magus 1/Wizard 3 (CL 8)/Spellthief 4 (CL 8) - Apply lower to Wizard
Ultimate Magus 2/Wizard 3 (CL 9)/Spellthief 4 (CL 9)
Ultimate Magus 3/Wizard 3 (CL 10)/Spellthief 4 (CL 10)
Ultimate Magus 4/Wizard 3 (CL 11)/Spellthief 4 (CL 11) - Apply lower to Wizard
Ultimate Magus 5/Wizard 3 (CL 12)/Spellthief 4 (CL 12)
Ultimate Magus 6/Wizard 3 (CL 13)/Spellthief 4 (CL 13)
Ultimate Magus 7/Wizard 3 (CL 14)/Spellthief 4 (CL 14) - Apply lower to Wizard
Ultimate Magus 8/Wizard 3 (CL 15)/Spellthief 4 (CL 15)
Ultimate Magus 9/Wizard 3 (CL 16)/Spellthief 4 (CL 16)
Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard 3 (CL 17)/Spellthief 4 (CL 17)
Spellwarp Sniper 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard 3 (CL 18)/Spellthief 4 (CL 18)
Spellwarp Sniper 2/Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard 3 (CL 19)/Spellthief 4 (CL 19)
Spellwarp Sniper 3/Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard 3 (CL 20)/Spellthief 4 (CL 20)

...Interesting. I THINK I did that right. I dunno, I didn't double-apply the double-advancement levels.

Monstrodoom
2008-10-28, 06:47 PM
Fax, you're cheaping on your CL - each theurge level of UM adds to both classes, so shouldn't Master Spellthief essentially add two to both in that case?

Putting you at 12 at level 10, right?

Fax Celestis
2008-10-28, 06:53 PM
Let's try that again with double-applications.

ECL 1: Spellthief 1 (CL 0)
ECL 2: Spellthief 2 (CL 1)
ECL 3: Spellthief 3 (CL 1)
ECL 4: Spellthief 4 (CL 2)
ECL 5: Wizard 1 (CL 1)/Spellthief 4 (CL 2)
ECL 6: Wizard 2 (CL 6)/Spellthief 4 (CL 6) - Master Spellthief Feat
ECL 7: Wizard 3 (CL 7)/Spellthief 4 (CL 7)
ECL 8: Ultimate Magus 1/Wizard 3 (CL 8+1)/Spellthief 4 (CL 8+1) - Apply lower to Wizard, Spell Power +1
ECL 9: Ultimate Magus 2/Wizard 3 (CL 10+1)/Spellthief 4 (CL 10+1)
ECL 10: Ultimate Magus 3/Wizard 3 (CL 12+1)/Spellthief 4 (CL 12+1)
ECL 11: Ultimate Magus 4/Wizard 3 (CL 13+2)/Spellthief 4 (CL 13+2) - Apply lower to Wizard, Spell Power +2
ECL 12: Ultimate Magus 5/Wizard 3 (CL 15+2)/Spellthief 4 (CL 15+2)
ECL 13: Ultimate Magus 6/Wizard 3 (CL 17+2)/Spellthief 4 (CL 17+2)
ECL 14: Ultimate Magus 7/Wizard 3 (CL 18+3)/Spellthief 4 (CL 18+3) - Apply lower to Wizard, Spell Power +3
ECL 15: Ultimate Magus 8/Wizard 3 (CL 20+3)/Spellthief 4 (CL 20+3)
ECL 16: Ultimate Magus 9/Wizard 3 (CL 22+3)/Spellthief 4 (CL 22+3)
ECL 17: Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard 3 (CL 24+4)/Spellthief 4 (CL 24+4) - Spell Power +4
ECL 18: Spellwarp Sniper 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard 3 (CL 25+4)/Spellthief 4 (CL 25+4)
ECL 19: Spellwarp Sniper 2/Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard 3 (CL 26+4)/Spellthief 4 (CL 26+4)
ECL 20: Spellwarp Sniper 3/Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard 3 (CL 27+4)/Spellthief 4 (CL 27+4)

...yeah, that's kinda scary.

Keld Denar
2008-10-28, 06:58 PM
I think, since Cax is EFFECTIVELY a ST6/Wiz6 at character level 10, that would be true, and Cax would have a CL of 12 for both ST and Wiz. This depends on I guess how Master Spellthief reads. IIRC, its not capped by HD, like Practiced Spellcaster is, but I'll wait until someone who HAS the book can cite it. Sounds to me like Cax would end up with a CL of 27. Not redicuously OP on its own, since Cax would only be effectively a 16th level wizard and lose out on 9th level spells, but he is also effectively casting as an 11th level ST, which is always handy.

Also....WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WOULD YOU PICK SWS? /Shudder

Cap it out with Archmage or Unseen Seer or even Arcane Trickster?
SWS is bad....

ericgrau
2008-10-28, 07:08 PM
Here's some more ammo:

Creating +X magic items is usually caster level dependant.
Casting spells from scrolls is caster level dependant. It's a caster level check DC 1 + scroll caster level, or auto-success if your caster level is equal or higher than the scroll's level.

Fishy
2008-10-29, 12:01 AM
You forgot the Godsblood Spelltheft (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) feat at level 1. :P Poison shows up as a 4th level spell in the Pestilence and Scalykind domains, and a 3rd level spell in the Slime domain. So, steal a spell from yourself, apply some Ultimate Magus metamagic to it, and then you can spit out Con damage with Fortitude Save DC: No.

Unfortunately, you need to pick an FR deity with the domain you want, and I'm not terribly familiar with them. Is this impossible?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-29, 12:26 AM
Ghaunadaur is the only FR deity that grants the Slime domain, and he's not on that list. Pestilence isn't a FR domain, none of the deities grant it. Tiamat is the only one on that list who grants the Scalykind domain, which will have to work.

Better than that, take Arcane Disciple for any of the alignment domains and cast a Dictum, Blasphemy, Holy Word, or Word of Chaos to AoE no-save-kill anything with (caster level -10) HD that isn't of the specified alignment. Get a Ring of Arcane Might (CA) and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone for another +2 caster level. UMD a Bead of Karma from a Strand of Prayer Beads to get another +4 for 10 minutes. That means when casting Holy Word anything with 27 or fewer Hit Dice that is not good aligned will die, no saving throw. Use UM to add Widen Spell for a bigger AoE. It's just a shame that Arcane Disciple only allows you to cast the spell once/day.

Fishy
2008-10-29, 12:40 AM
Godsblood Spelltheft works CHA/day, and there's no reason why you couldn't take the Good domain for that, is there?

On the other hand, Arcane Disciple adds spells to your Wizard class list, and you can then move them over to the Spelltheif list with Ultimate Magus' Expanded Spell Knowledge ability. That only works on spells of 5th level or lower, though, so Holy Word is out of contention but Poison is back in.

EDIT: Aaaand, spellthieves never get more than 3 4th level spells a day. I knew there was a reason that didn't work. Godsblood Spelltheft works off of the level of spells you can steal, though, so that's probably the better option.

Keld Denar
2008-10-29, 10:06 AM
How else can we augment this? What happens if you take Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) before taking MST? Since you choose the most beneficial way to apply feats and whatnot, you could apply PS to Wizard at ECL3, and when you finish ST4, your Wiz CL would be 7. Thus, you'd add your ST CL and your Wiz CL together and get what? CL 9 at ECL7? Then add UM for even more shanananananananananagans? Or am I missing something here?

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-29, 10:20 AM
How else can we augment this? What happens if you take Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) before taking MST? Since you choose the most beneficial way to apply feats and whatnot, you could apply PS to Wizard at ECL3, and when you finish ST4, your Wiz CL would be 7. Thus, you'd add your ST CL and your Wiz CL together and get what? CL 9 at ECL7? Then add UM for even more shanananananananananagans? Or am I missing something here?

that is awsome...

Fishy
2008-10-29, 10:36 AM
How else can we augment this? What happens if you take Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) before taking MST? Since you choose the most beneficial way to apply feats and whatnot, you could apply PS to Wizard at ECL3, and when you finish ST4, your Wiz CL would be 7. Thus, you'd add your ST CL and your Wiz CL together and get what? CL 9 at ECL7? Then add UM for even more shanananananananananagans? Or am I missing something here?

Yup. you're missing that Master Spellthief makes Practiced Spellcaster completely redundant for this build.

Practiced Spellcaster adds 4 to your caster level *without* going over your character level. Master Spellthief turns your caster level into the sum of all your arcane classes. If you only take arcane classes before UM, then your caster level is equal for all of them. UM specifies that if the caster levels are equal, you get to choose where to put the +1 caster level... and then Master Spellthief will make them equal again for the next time. There's literally nothing more you could want out of UM. :P

Talic
2008-10-29, 10:40 AM
Ok. Here's my contribution to this monster.

Human Sorceror 4 (or beguiler 4)

Feats: Arcane Preparation
Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.
Benefit: Each day, you can use one or more of your spell slots to prepare spells you know, usually for the purpose of applying a metamagic feat to the spellóbut without an increase in its casting time. Preparing a spell uses a spell slot of the appropriate level, and once prepared, that slot canít be
used for anything else until the prepared spell is cast.

Can cast 2nd level spells.

Can cast 2nd level spells spontaneously.
Can cast 2nd level prepared spells.

Ok, now we've met all the spellcasting requirements for UM. What can we do with this? Do we need more than 1 level of Spellthief for anything?

EDIT: UM Never lists that the classes you give the increase to be different.

Could you just take sorceror 5/ UM 10 and get disgusting caster level that way? A level 15 character with Caster level 22?

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-29, 10:49 AM
Yup. you're missing that Master Spellthief makes Practiced Spellcaster completely redundant for this build.

Practiced Spellcaster adds 4 to your caster level *without* going over your character level. Master Spellthief turns your caster level into the sum of all your arcane classes. If you only take arcane classes before UM, then your caster level is equal for all of them. UM specifies that if the caster levels are equal, you get to choose where to put the +1 caster level... and then Master Spellthief will make them equal again for the next time. There's literally nothing more you could want out of UM. :P

no it doesn't as Feats stack in the most optimal way. so Practiced spell caster would apply before MS.
So Wizard 3/ ST 4 With Practiced spell caster on the wizard.

Caster levels would be
Wizard cl:11
Spellthief CL:11

I belive because the Wizards and practiced stack first making it
wizard 7 then MS applys and it would make it CL11... thats not including UM At that point you would be adding 1 cl to each class.. and advancing the class one of the classes by one.

only1doug
2008-10-29, 10:58 AM
Ok. Here's my contribution to this monster.

Human Sorceror 4 (or beguiler 4)

Feats: Arcane Preparation
Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.
Benefit: Each day, you can use one or more of your spell slots to prepare spells you know, usually for the purpose of applying a metamagic feat to the spellóbut without an increase in its casting time. Preparing a spell uses a spell slot of the appropriate level, and once prepared, that slot canít be
used for anything else until the prepared spell is cast.

Can cast 2nd level spells.

Can cast 2nd level spells spontaneously.
Can cast 2nd level prepared spells.

Ok, now we've met all the spellcasting requirements for UM. What can we do with this? Do we need more than 1 level of Spellthief for anything?

EDIT: UM Never lists that the classes you give the increase to be different.

Could you just take sorceror 5/ UM 10 and get disgusting caster level that way? A level 15 character with Caster level 22?

Ouch, thats sickening, sorcerer 5/UM5 would get spells/day as a Sorcerer13....

and have a caster Level of 15

Talic
2008-10-29, 11:03 AM
I believe UM only increases one side a levels 1, 4, and 7.

Still, the idea is sound, as you can spontaneously cast from sorceror, and thanks to the feat, you can prepare cast from the sorceror as well.

So, it would go:

Sorc 1 - CL 1
Sorc 2 - CL 2
Sorc 3 - CL 3
Sorc 4 - CL 4
Sorc 5 - CL 5
UM 1 - CL 6
UM 2 - CL 8
UM 3 - CL 10
UM 4 - CL 11
UM 5 - CL 13
UM 6 - CL 15
UM 7 - CL 16
UM 8 - CL 18
UM 9 - CL 20
UM 10 - CL 22
Sorc 6 - CL 23
Sorc 7 - CL 24
Sorc 8 - CL 25
Sorc 9 - CL 26
Sorc10 - CL 27


Which means at level 13, you gain access to level 9 spells.
Opens up more classes for the Sorceror, including the "Thou shalt not lose CL" classes. But for this, we're trying to boost CL, so no to that. At level 20, we're still at CL 27, also. Alternately, instead of Sorceror 6-10, pick any other fullcast PRC. Shadowcraft Mage, perhaps, if we make this a gnome? Incorporate the Killer Gnome Build into it?

Fishy
2008-10-29, 11:11 AM
EDIT: UM Never lists that the classes you give the increase to be different.

Could you just take sorceror 5/ UM 10 and get disgusting caster level that way? A level 15 character with Caster level 22?

There's also the Spontaneous Diviner Wizard variant from Complete Divine, which lets in a level 5 wizard.

I know those UM builds are frowned upon, but I don't know if there's a RAW reason why.

EDIT: Also, you forgot the Arcane Spell Power class feature, which gives you another +4 CL, but no spells known or spells/day or anything.

only1doug
2008-10-29, 11:22 AM
I believe UM only increases one side a levels 1, 4, and 7.

Still, the idea is sound, as you can spontaneously cast from sorceror, and thanks to the feat, you can prepare cast from the sorceror as well.

So, it would go:

Sorc 1 - CL 1
Sorc 2 - CL 2
Sorc 3 - CL 3
Sorc 4 - CL 4
Sorc 5 - CL 5
UM 1 - CL 6
UM 2 - CL 8
UM 3 - CL 10
UM 4 - CL 11
UM 5 - CL 13
UM 6 - CL 15
UM 7 - CL 16
UM 8 - CL 18
UM 9 - CL 20
UM 10 - CL 22
Sorc 6 - CL 23
Sorc 7 - CL 24
Sorc 8 - CL 25
Sorc 9 - CL 26
Sorc10 - CL 27


Which means at level 13, you gain access to level 9 spells.
Opens up more classes for the Sorceror, including the "Thou shalt not lose CL" classes. But for this, we're trying to boost CL, so no to that. At level 20, we're still at CL 27, also. Alternately, instead of Sorceror 6-10, pick any other fullcast PRC. Shadowcraft Mage, perhaps, if we make this a gnome? Incorporate the Killer Gnome Build into it?

Arcane spell power, +1 to all caster levels (on the levels when you only get an increase on one side) (doesn't increase spells/day etc)


So, it would go:

Sorc 1 - CL 1
Sorc 2 - CL 2
Sorc 3 - CL 3
Sorc 4 - CL 4
Sorc 5 - CL 5
UM 1 - CL 6+1
UM 2 - CL 8+1
UM 3 - CL 10+1
UM 4 - CL 11+2
UM 5 - CL 13+2
UM 6 - CL 15+2
UM 7 - CL 16+3
UM 8 - CL 18+3
UM 9 - CL 20+3
UM 10 - CL 22+3
Sorc 6 - CL 23+3
Sorc 7 - CL 24+3
Sorc 8 - CL 25+3
Sorc 9 - CL 26+3
Sorc10 - CL 27+3

But frankly UM10+ are wasted, what benefit is there in just gaining caster levels at that point. so i'd go:

Sorc 1 - CL 1
Sorc 2 - CL 2
Sorc 3 - CL 3
Sorc 4 - CL 4
Sorc 5 - CL 5
UM 1 - CL 6+1
UM 2 - CL 8+1
UM 3 - CL 10+1
UM 4 - CL 11+2
UM 5 - CL 13+2
UM 6 - CL 15+2
UM 7 - CL 16+3
UM 8 - CL 18+3
Spellthief 1
UM 9 - CL 19+3 - master spellthief feat CL21+3 to both
UM 10 - CL 23+3
Spellthief 2- CL 24+3
Spellthief 3- CL 25+3
Spellthief 4- CL 26+3
Spellthief 5- CL 27+3


whish gives you the spellthief stuff on top of the sick sorcerer abilities (there is no benefit to +1 spellcasting level once you have hit L20, not if you can gain the same caster level benefits from a 2nd source that will gain from +1 spellcaster level)

only1doug
2008-10-29, 11:30 AM
True, but that's only because I haven't found a way to break it yet.

I think we've broken it now ;P

Caster L30 in spellthief and Sorcerer at L20, casts as a L20 sorcerer and a L7 spellthief

Talic
2008-10-29, 11:37 AM
Alternately, if you can qualify for chameleon....

"At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level."

Here we go.
Assuming Spellthief gets bluff and disguise as class skills.

Sorceror 4 / Spellthief 1 /Chameleon 5/Mystic Theurge 10.

Put 7 Spellcasting level increases into Chameleon.

Since you gain caster level "as if you had gained a level in the prepared arcane casting class", and Chameleon has: "Your caster level is equal to twice your class level."

This means at level 20:
Cast as a level 14 sorceror
Cast as a level 30 chameleon (divine). So now your holy word spells, without further augmentation, kill level 20's.

With Ultimate Magus, you get:
Level 14 Sorceror
Level 24 Chameleon

Now, with the master spellthief, all arcane levels stack. for all spells.

So now:
ECL1 - Sorceror 1 - CL 1 (Arcane Preparation here)
ECL2 - Sorceror 2 - CL 2
ECL3 - Sorceror 3 - CL 3
ECL4 - Sorceror 4 - CL 4
ECL5 - Spellthief 1 - CL 4 (CL 0 Spellthief)
ECL6 - Chameleon 1 - CL 6 (Master Spellthief here)
ECL7 - UM 1 - CL 8 (Choose to apply to chameleon)
ECL8 - UM 2 - CL 12 (Apply both to chameleon)
ECL9 - UM 3 - CL 16 (Apply both to chameleon)
ECL10- UM 4 - CL 18 (Choose to apply to chameleon)
ECL11- UM 5 - CL 22 (Apply both to chameleon)
ECL12- UM 6 - CL 26 (Apply both to chameleon)
ECL13- UM 7 - CL 28 (Choose to apply to chameleon)
ECL14- UM 8 - CL 32
ECL15- UM 9 - CL 36
ECL16- UM 10- CL 40
ECL17- Chameleon 6 - CL 42
ECL18- Chameleon 7 - CL 44
ECL19- Chameleon 8 - CL 46
ECL20- Chameleon 9 - CL 48

Why can you apply all to chameleon? Because all your arcane classes stack together for caster level.

Add in Arcane Spell Power?

Now, provided you can get holy word on your chameleon spell list, you can kill anything nongood with 41 or less HD, no save.

Great Wyrm Red Dragon. Dead.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-29, 11:41 AM
Could you just take sorceror 5/ UM 10 and get disgusting caster level that way? A level 15 character with Caster level 22?

I'm afraid that wouldn't work, as UM specifies you must be "able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells from a spellbook". Arcane preparation doesn't involve spellbooks. That doesn't rule out spontaneous divination, though.

However, UM also specifies that "you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class". That gives us two RAW problems: first, the word "both" means that yes, we need two caster classes; and second, taking a spontaneous arcane feat doesn't give us a spontaneous arcane class.

Talic
2008-10-29, 12:22 PM
and second, taking a spontaneous arcane feat doesn't give us a spontaneous arcane class.

If the Feat allows the Class to cast spontaneously, then yes. It does.

That player is then able to cast spontaneous arcane spells from that class. Thus, it is a class capable of casting spontaneous arcane spells.

What you are saying is:

That player is then able to cast spontaneous arcane spells from that class. However, it is not a class capable of casting spontaneous arcane spells.

If the player is able to do it legally, the class must be able to. If it were not able to, the player would not be able to do it.

Rad
2008-10-29, 12:47 PM
I don't think it works that way. The feat says the evels stack, not to add your CL in your classes. So the levels are the actual levels, no double progression.
On the practiced spellcaster thing, feats stack in the most advantageous way but in this case they do not add up: Prcaticed spellcaster would add to yout (low) natural CL and then practiced spellcaster would not take that increase into account since it only counts class levels.
just my 2cp...

Kurald Galain
2008-10-29, 12:59 PM
That player is then able to cast spontaneous arcane spells from that class. Thus, it is a class capable of casting spontaneous arcane spells.
No, it is a character casting spontaneous arcane spells. That character does not, however, belong to any spontaneous arcane class, i.e. any class that has spontaneous arcane casting as a class feature.

This is true because characters are capable of doing things through other means than their class, such as through their race, feats, skills, and items. For instance, if a character's race allows it to cast spontaneous spells, the character still does not belong to a spontaneous casting class. The same applies if a character has an item that allows it to cast spontaneous spells, or in this case, a feat that allows that.

On the contrary, by your reasoning, Fighter would be a spontaneous arcane class, because a Sylph Fighter (assuming OOTS sylphs) can cast spontaneous arcane spells.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-29, 01:02 PM
No, it is a character casting spontaneous arcane spells. That character does not, however, belong to any spontaneous arcane class, i.e. any class that has spontaneous arcane casting as a class feature.


Um.

Spontaneous spellcasting as an alternate class feature means, yes, he does get it as a class feature. An alternate class feature, but a class feature nonetheless.


On the contrary, by your reasoning, Fighter would be a spontaneous arcane class, because a Sylph Fighter (assuming OOTS sylphs) can cast spontaneous arcane spells.
And it would be, if it has "casts like a X level sorceror" in its description rather than SLAs. Monsters qualify for PrCs et al via their racial abilities, including casting.

Draz74
2008-10-29, 04:30 PM
The only thing I can think of that'd be ZOMGAtrocious would be the poison spell, but that's druid-only. It does mean, however, that rounds/minutes/hours per level would be a lot higher.

It's Cleric/Druid, not Druid-only, and you can Limited Wish it. However, the Holy Word stuff is clearly a crazier abuse.

Gaiwecoor
2008-10-30, 06:26 PM
And it would be, if it has "casts like a X level sorceror" in its description rather than SLAs. Monsters qualify for PrCs et al via their racial abilities, including casting.

Oh, no. You just made me start to think. For shame! :smallwink:

Dragons (and Rakshasa and others) cast as sorcerers ... this gives them the spontaneous requirement for UM. After 4 levels (Wiz 3 / Spellthief 1), it can enter Ultimate Magus to get into the crazy caster level fiasco that's been going on here. How would you like that as an NPC/BBEG? (I exclude PC because ... you know ... level adjustment.)

Fax Celestis
2008-10-30, 06:36 PM
Oh, no. You just made me start to think. For shame! :smallwink:

Dragons (and Rakshasa and others) cast as sorcerers ... this gives them the spontaneous requirement for UM. After 4 levels (Wiz 3 / Spellthief 1), it can enter Ultimate Magus to get into the crazy caster level fiasco that's been going on here. How would you like that as an NPC/BBEG? (I exclude PC because ... you know ... level adjustment.)

Redspawn Arcaniss in the MMIV are the same way.

Keld Denar
2008-10-30, 06:38 PM
Dragons (and Rakshasa and others) cast as sorcerers ... this gives them the spontaneous requirement for UM. After 4 levels (Wiz 3 / Spellthief 1), it can enter Ultimate Magus to get into the crazy caster level fiasco that's been going on here. How would you like that as an NPC/BBEG? (I exclude PC because ... you know ... level adjustment.)

Would Ultimate Magus be considered non-associated class levels for a dragon? Hmmmmmm