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ThrustVectoring
2008-10-29, 04:42 PM
grab Permanent Emanation as your class feat at level 23 (can't get it earlier since it requires 25 ranks of spellcraft), and use it to get a permanent Greater Consumptive Field. This causes every creature within 30 feet with 9 hp or fewer to take a will save or die. Caster gains 1d8 temporary hit points and +2 strength for each creature that dies within range. These last until the spell's duration expires, which is basically as long as the field stays up. Now use all your spells each day casting summon monster, and summon fiendish dire rats from the summon monster I list. These rats must then instantly take a will save or die, and each one that dies counts towards your strength bonus and temporary hit points.

Gorbash
2008-10-29, 04:51 PM
You can have 25 ranks in Spellcraft on lvl 22. Max is lvl +3, not lvl +2

Ganurath
2008-10-29, 04:56 PM
You can have 25 ranks in Spellcraft on lvl 22. Max is lvl +3, not lvl +2When can you pick up a feat at L22?

Starsinger
2008-10-29, 04:57 PM
You can have 25 ranks in Spellcraft on lvl 22. Max is lvl +3, not lvl +2

That requires you to find a way to get an epic level feat at level 22.

Edit: The appropriate thing to do would be to bemoan my "Ninja'd" state.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-10-29, 05:00 PM
Divine metamagic + Persistent Spell.

ThrustVectoring
2008-10-29, 05:02 PM
Divine metamagic + Persistent Spell.

mind telling me what those do or where to look them up?

FMArthur
2008-10-29, 05:02 PM
That's not infinite strength, it's merely limitless. At any given time you will have a finite strength value.

edit: DMM reduces the cost of metamagic by expending Turn attempts.

Persistent Spell is a metamagic that lets a spell last all day.

The combination of the two allows for near-epic cheese at non-epic levels. Besides, who plays at Epic levels? Broken combos are entirely unsurprising and unimpressive when epic spellcasting comes into play.

martyboy74
2008-10-29, 05:07 PM
You can get NI strength at level 21. Take epic spellcasting, and laugh.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-10-29, 05:08 PM
mind telling me what those do or where to look them up?

It allows you to have a Greater consumptive field with a duration of 24 hours as soon as you are able to cast the spell. It is not as powerful as the combination you suggest, but it is available that much earlier.

Divine Metamagic is in Complete Divine and Persistent spell is in Complete Arcane.

If you find the concept of absurdly high power interesting you will like those too. :smallamused:

Baxbart
2008-10-29, 05:10 PM
1: Attain level 13, make sure you have DMM: Persistant spell and lots of Turning attempts to spare.
2: Cast Greater Consumptive Field, burning turn attempts to persist (24 hours).
3: Strip off and run laps through the nearest village full of commoners. When they all die, move on to the next village, then town... etc
4: ???
5: Profit!

monty
2008-10-29, 05:11 PM
The kobolds laugh at your pitiful cleric.

ThrustVectoring
2008-10-29, 05:12 PM
That's not infinite strength, it's merely limitless. At any given time you will have a finite strength value.

edit: DMM reduces the cost of metamagic by expending Turn attempts.

Persistent Spell is a metamagic that lets a spell last all day.

The combination of the two allows for near-epic cheese at non-epic levels.

sorry about the infinite -- unbounded mixup, its a holdover from playing magic:the gathering, where most unbounded combinations ("gain as much life as you want") are commonly called "infinite".

And for the DMM/Persistent Spell, what would be the lowest level you could pull off a day-long consumptive field(L4 cleric spell)? It would be relatively easy to summon fiendish dire rats over a pit or something, or otherwise into something that would take them below 0 HP.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-29, 05:14 PM
The Summon Monster 1 trick doesn't work. Summoned creatures don't actually die, they just return to where ever they came from. Don't get Greater, just Permanent Emanation: Consumptive Field. Then by chickens for 2cp each and a bucket of water. Drown one, it goes to 0 hp and fails the save to give you +2 Str. This trick has been around for as long as that spell has, it's far from new.

ThrustVectoring
2008-10-29, 05:18 PM
The Summon Monster 1 trick doesn't work. Summoned creatures don't actually die, they just return to where ever they came from. Don't get Greater, just Permanent Emanation: Consumptive Field. Then by chickens for 2cp each and a bucket of water. Drown one, it goes to 0 hp and fails the save to give you +2 Str. This trick has been around for as long as that spell has, it's far from new.

Care to point out where it says that summoned creatures don't die?

BRC
2008-10-29, 05:18 PM
How about this
1)Attain Level 23, get a decent charisma score (Let's say +2)
2) Have Taken the Leadership feat at this point you will have 158 followers, make them all Adepts and have them pool all their NPC WBL money into a pot with which you hire more adepts.
3) Have Epic Spellcasting.
4) Inform everybody else that you have epic spellcasting and hundreds of casters to contribute spell slots.
5) Do whatever you want, and we mean it, anything. Epic spellcasting is cool like that.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-10-29, 05:22 PM
Care to point out where it says that summoned creatures don't die?

Well they die, but are reformed 24 hours later.

So for the purpose of spells and effects it is reasonable to assume that since summoned creatures can be killed they can also be used as fuel.

insecure
2008-10-29, 05:38 PM
How about this
1)Attain Level 23, get a decent charisma score (Let's say +2)
2) Have Taken the Leadership feat at this point you will have 158 followers, make them all Adepts and have them pool all their NPC WBL money into a pot with which you hire more adepts.
3) Have Epic Spellcasting.
4) Inform everybody else that you have epic spellcasting and hundreds of casters to contribute spell slots.
5) Do whatever you want, and we mean it, anything. Epic spellcasting is cool like that.
6)....
7) PROFIT!

Fix'd that for you.:smallwink:

Worira
2008-10-29, 06:07 PM
The thing is that an infinite combination in magic has to take place in one turn (the execution, not the buildup). This is infinite only in the sense that a Clearwater Goblet (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=50198) grants infinite life. Also, breaking the game in epic levels is not exactly difficult.

Lyndworm
2008-10-29, 06:36 PM
for the DMM/Persistent Spell, what would be the lowest level you could pull off a day-long consumptive field(L4 cleric spell)?

You can't take DMM: Persist until you have DMM: Extend, so you'll need to pick that up.

You have to spend one Turn/Rebuke plus one more for each level increase in the metamagic feat youíre using. Persistent adds +6, so you'll need to use up 7 attempts.

All clerics get a number of attempts per day equal to 3+Cha. So, if you have a Cha score of at least 18, you can accomplish this task the same day you get access to the spell: Level 7.

It should be known, however, that the feat Extra Turning adds four Turn/Rebuke attempts. So, with it, you can still accomplish this goal at level 7 with a Cha of 10.

Zack

monty
2008-10-29, 06:51 PM
You can't take DMM: Persist until you have DMM: Extend, so you'll need to pick that up.

No. You need Extend for Persist, but you don't need DMM Extend for anything.

Lyndworm
2008-10-29, 06:54 PM
No. You need Extend for Persist, but you don't need DMM Extend for anything.

Wow. DMM is even more broken then I thought. Who saw that coming?

Zack

Douglas
2008-10-29, 07:13 PM
You do need Persistent Spell before you can take DMM(Persist), and you need Persistent Spell's prereq of course, but you don't need to take DMM for the prereq metamagic. Still three feats, and that's before however many Extra Turnings you take to fuel it.

Vortling
2008-10-29, 07:40 PM
You do need Persistent Spell before you can take DMM(Persist), and you need Persistent Spell's prereq of course, but you don't need to take DMM for the prereq metamagic. Still three feats, and that's before however many Extra Turnings you take to fuel it.

Assuming you don't pick up the planning domain. Planning domain grants Extend spell as a bonus feat for its domain power. With the planning domain you can have a human cleric persisting as early as level 1 with enough CHA. Or if they pick up the Undeath domain which grants Extra turning as a bonus feat for its domain power.

chiasaur11
2008-10-29, 08:39 PM
The kobolds laugh at your pitiful cleric.

But who don't they laugh at?

(Other than O-Chul)

monty
2008-10-29, 09:01 PM
But who don't they laugh at?

(Other than O-Chul)

To clarify, they laugh at your pitiful cleric's pitiful attempt to reach true power.

Randomosity
2008-10-29, 09:23 PM
For ThrustVectoring, since no one actually answered his question.


Summoning

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it canít be summoned again.

Emphasis added for emphasis.

Also, agreed that infinite or limitless Strength is pretty lackluster a) at epic levels and b) when those epic levels are already coupled by normal epic casting.

Talic
2008-10-30, 12:13 AM
There is also a residual feat that allow for summoning small elementals. Useful for powering this.

Further, let's try to cheese this a bit.

Summon Monster 1 gets the right creature.

So you can get your creatures up to...

(Level 1 slots) + (Level 2 slots x 1d3) + ((Level 3-9 slots - 2) x (1d4+1))
Factoring in DMM Persist Greater Consumptive Field, and DMM Persist Divine Power.

jcsw
2008-10-30, 06:24 AM
If you allow dragon magazine... the chicken infested FLAW gives you a 50% chance to draw a chicken instead of whatever you were intending to draw whenever you're about to draw something.

1. You need to be a commoner to take the flaw, so commoner 1/cleric 13...

2. Take the planning domain, Persistant spell and DMM Persist. Take quick draw.

3. Buy a spell component pouch.

4. Cast DMM Persist Greater Consumptive Field

5. Draw the dart (as a free action, cause it's a weapon) from the pouch that you would normally use to cast Melf's Acid Arrow.

6. If it's a chicken, it dies, drop it as a free action. If it's a dart, drop it as a free action. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

7. Be an illumnian cleric, who can use strength to determine spells/day instead of wis.

8. ????

9. Profit!!!

FMArthur
2008-10-30, 07:26 AM
If you allow dragon magazine... the chicken infested FLAW gives you a 50% chance to draw a chicken instead of whatever you were intending to draw whenever you're about to draw something.

1. You need to be a commoner to take the flaw, so commoner 1/cleric 13...

2. Take the planning domain, Persistant spell and DMM Persist. Take quick draw.

3. Buy a spell component pouch.

4. Cast DMM Persist Greater Consumptive Field

5. Draw the dart (as a free action, cause it's a weapon) from the pouch that you would normally use to cast Melf's Acid Arrow.

6. If it's a chicken, it dies, drop it as a free action. If it's a dart, drop it as a free action. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

7. Be an illumnian cleric, who can use strength to determine spells/day instead of wis.

8. ????

9. Profit!!!

10. Finish this trivial silliness and get on with your original plan to instantly flood the world with chickens.

BRC
2008-10-30, 07:58 AM
10. Finish this trivial silliness and get on with your original plan to instantly flood the world with chickens.
In DnD, "Free" or "Infinite" anything always leads to destroying the world and the laws of physics.

DigoDragon
2008-10-30, 09:31 AM
In DnD, "Free" or "Infinite" anything always leads to destroying the world and the laws of physics.

Unless you have a DM who's clever enough to trump your plans at breaking physics. :smallamused:
"In Epic Russian Spellcasting, physics break you."

jcsw
2008-10-30, 10:12 AM
In DnD, "Free" or "Infinite" anything always leads to destroying the world and the laws of physics.

Oh? What about Free-dom of Movement?
Or talking as a free action?

monty
2008-10-30, 10:46 AM
Then you just need to find a way to animate them all (I know there is one) and take over the world with your army of INFINITE ZOMBIE CHICKENS!

jcsw
2008-10-30, 10:53 AM
!!!!then Use Your Bardic Cohort To Inspire Them All With Dragonfire/greatness!!!! (using An Alphorn!!!!!)

Starbuck_II
2008-10-30, 11:54 AM
In DnD, "Free" or "Infinite" anything always leads to destroying the world and the laws of physics.

So do you get to count catgirls in your bonuses?

FMArthur
2008-10-30, 12:35 PM
Oh? What about Free-dom of Movement?
Or talking as a free action?

You know, if talking is a free action... shouldn't Truenaming also be a free action?

jcsw
2008-10-30, 12:36 PM
And more importantly, if you break physics using infinity, do you kill an infinite amount of catgirls?

Cause infinite catgirl zombies would be cool, you know...

The Glyphstone
2008-10-30, 01:30 PM
You know, if talking is a free action... shouldn't Truenaming also be a free action?

Great, you've found a way to make Truenaming ineffective even FASTER...:smallyuk:

Starbuck_II
2008-10-30, 01:33 PM
Great, you've found a way to make Truenaming ineffective even FASTER...:smallyuk:

If only a Truenaming check could get a Nat 20 = success...stupid skill rules. He might have a chance otherswise :smallbiggrin:

FMArthur
2008-10-30, 01:35 PM
It's funny; with the daily scaling DCs, that's probably among the few situations where I don't think allowing unlimited uses per turn would be all that unbalancing. It would probably bring Truenamer up a tier or two, though.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-30, 01:38 PM
OK, so here's the simple recipe. Be a nongood human Cleric of no particular deity, with a Charisma of at least 10 and the Planning (grants Extend Spell) and Undeath (grants Extra Turning) domains. Use your 1st-level feat to get Persistent Spell and your human bonus feat to get Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). Spend 7 turn/rebuke attempts (3 + CHA mod + 4 from Extra Turning) to use Divine Metamagic to reduce the Persistent Spell cost down to +0 levels; at level 1 you'll use it to make Bless or Divine Favor (or something like that) last 24 hours.

When you get to level 7 you can cast and persist Consumptive Field. Spend 1 gp each morning to buy 50 chickens (2 cp each). Drown them, gaining 50d8 temporary hit points (average 225) all day, and +100 STR from Consumptive Field. Cook some of the chickens for breakfast and to carry for later meals, and give the rest away to curry favor with the locals.

As you go adventuring you'll probably pick up more STR and temporary HP, while never using up your temporary HP reserve. Each melee hit will gain the benefit of +50 or so to hit and damage, so you'll only miss when you roll natural 1s. You might even want to think about taking luck feats (Lucky Start, Unbelievable Luck, Better Lucky than Good) to remove that little problem. :smallcool:

Duke of URL
2008-10-30, 01:41 PM
Then you just need to find a way to animate them all (I know there is one) and take over the world with your army of INFINITE ZOMBIE CHICKENS!

Would Fell Animate tacked on the consumptive field do the trick?

@^(above build)

Yeah, just take Fell Animate at a feat at level 3 and DMM(Fell Animate) at level 6. It's another few turn attempts to burn, but you should have them by level 7.

Now, anything killed by the consumptive field rises as a zombie under your control, with no black onyx costs! (Well, up to 2x your HD per casting, that is...)

So... what are the stats on a chicken, anyway?

monty
2008-10-30, 02:23 PM
It's funny; with the daily scaling DCs, that's probably among the few situations where I don't think allowing unlimited uses per turn would be all that unbalancing. It would probably bring Truenamer up a tier or two, though.

So, bring it up a bit from tier 27, or wherever it is?