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Erk
2008-10-29, 10:20 PM
Jim is a paladin.
Jim has Weapon focus: Longsword, giving him a +1 feat bonus to damage with his longsword
Jim also has Astral Fire, giving him a +1 feat bonus to radiant and fire damage.

When Jim uses Holy Strike, he rolls 1[W] + str modifier radiant damage.

One could argue this two ways, based on how you view the equation for damage. If Jim's weapon damage, 1d8+feat, is a separate expression from the str+feat radiant damage, the feat bonuses should stack. If the damage is all a single expression, though, only one feat can be applied.

However, I think the RAW interpretation implies that they do not. Since they are unrelated feats and bonuses (as opposed to, say, Dwarven Weapon training and Weapon Focus:Battleaxe), I as DM would personally rule that it is OK to stack them.

Howabout you?

Dentarthur
2008-10-29, 10:26 PM
The +1 from Weapon focus isn't added to the weapon damage -- that is, the [W] doesn't become 1d8+1. It's added to damage rolls, meaning that even if he uses a 3[W] power, it still just adds 1 to the roll.

The radiant +damage feat works the same way, adding 1 to the roll. The expression "str+feat" doesn't really even make sense on its own.

Thus, the two feats are both adding a feat bonus to the same damage roll. They don't stack, even by a fairly loose interpretation.

Starsinger
2008-10-29, 10:29 PM
Really, Astral Fire vs. Weapon Focus is part of the bias towards Strength based characters. A Strength based character need only take Weapon Focus and have it apply to all of his abilities. The only class that can reasonably match that is the laser cleric with Astral Fire (and even then there are atleast one off the top of my head non-radiant or fire powers).

RPGuru1331
2008-10-30, 12:13 AM
What if there was Implement Focus?

Kurald Galain
2008-10-30, 05:27 AM
One could argue this two ways, based on how you view the equation for damage. If Jim's weapon damage, 1d8+feat, is a separate expression from the str+feat radiant damage, the feat bonuses should stack. If the damage is all a single expression, though, only one feat can be applied.

'fraid not.

If the power did "[W] damage, and Str radiant damage", then yes, both feats would apply, but the former part of the damage wouldn't be radiant.

However, since the power does "( [W] + Str ) radiant damage", all of the damage is radiant. It's not a separate expression when worded like that. And since both feats give a "feat bonus", they don't stack.

Oslecamo
2008-10-30, 05:36 AM
Really, Astral Fire vs. Weapon Focus is part of the bias towards Strength based characters. A Strength based character need only take Weapon Focus and have it apply to all of his abilities. The only class that can reasonably match that is the laser cleric with Astral Fire (and even then there are atleast one off the top of my head non-radiant or fire powers).

Perhaps because otherwise nobody would bother to go in melee if you could easily dish out as much damage from afar?

Kurald Galain
2008-10-30, 05:46 AM
Perhaps because otherwise nobody would bother to go in melee if you could easily dish out as much damage from afar?

Actually, you can. All strikers save the barbarian are very feasible as ranged characters (and, excluding the warlock, benefit from Weapon Focus).

Mark Hall
2008-10-30, 09:30 AM
Really, Astral Fire vs. Weapon Focus is part of the bias towards Strength based characters. A Strength based character need only take Weapon Focus and have it apply to all of his abilities. The only class that can reasonably match that is the laser cleric with Astral Fire (and even then there are atleast one off the top of my head non-radiant or fire powers).

I disagree. While Strength-based characters benefit from Weapon Focus more than others may benefit from Astral Fire (or the like), their powers are frequently against AC, which is very easy to get very high.

When they hit, the Strength-based characters are effective.

exodus_dragon
2008-10-30, 09:43 AM
Jim is a paladin.
Jim has Weapon focus: Longsword, giving him a +1 feat bonus to damage with his longsword
Jim also has Astral Fire, giving him a +1 feat bonus to radiant and fire damage.

When Jim uses Holy Strike, he rolls 1[W] + str modifier radiant damage.

The way i see it the damages stack as such.
Said pally has:

Longsword(1d8)
has feat bonus (+1dmg)
has astral fire bonus (+1dmg)

uses Hoy strike that allows 1[W]+str mod+1feat+1feat===1d8+str+1+1

same if the ability said and had the radiant dmg as well 3[W]+str mod+1feat+1feat====3d8+str+1+1

if the ability doesnt have the radiant modifier then you do not add that feat bonus same if he ends up not using the long sword you wouldnt add that bonus. they only add and stack if both variables are present.
you dont stack the feat bonus per [W]dmg. its just one time per the ability or attack

Erk
2008-10-30, 09:58 AM
The way i see it the damages stack as such.
Said pally has:

Longsword(1d8)
has feat bonus (+1dmg)
has astral fire bonus (+1dmg)

uses Hoy strike that allows 1[W]+str mod+1feat+1feat===1d8+str+1+1

same if the ability said and had the radiant dmg as well 3[W]+str mod+1feat+1feat====3d8+str+1+1

if the ability doesnt have the radiant modifier then you do not add that feat bonus same if he ends up not using the long sword you wouldnt add that bonus. they only add and stack if both variables are present.
you dont stack the feat bonus per [W]dmg. its just one time per the ability or attackThe point is that you can't have +1feat +1feat: they are the same bonus type so they do not stack.

In my games, I rule that these types of feat bonus can stack, because I don't see them as being exclusive. I'll freely admit that is not RAW though, I was just curious how other people read the situation, as I got into a discussion with a player about it.

Regarding weapon vs. implement, the "targets AC" bonus falls apart with fortitude attacks. Even at low levels, fortitude rapidly becomes higher on average than AC.

In my game, which has only 3 PCs and so operates at a slightly higher per-character power level, I've been thinking of allowing implements with other bonuses (eg. increase die size of fire damage by 1, so d6->d8, d8->d10; or increase attack bonus vs. fortitude by +2) as standard.

Gralamin
2008-10-30, 10:04 AM
I disagree. While Strength-based characters benefit from Weapon Focus more than others may benefit from Astral Fire (or the like), their powers are frequently against AC, which is very easy to get very high.

When they hit, the Strength-based characters are effective.

I Disagree. On Average, a monsters AC (Usually ~14+level) is 1.39 higher then its Fortitude, 2.75 higher then its reflex, and 3.31 higher then its will (Source (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/229092-lots-statistics-monster-manual.html)). Because of this, having a +3 proficiency weapon means your hitting more then an implement user attacking Fortitude or reflex, and just slightly below the implement user attacking will.


Regarding weapon vs. implement, the "targets AC" bonus falls apart with fortitude attacks. Even at low levels, fortitude rapidly becomes higher on average than AC.
Incorrect. Only brutes tend to have higher fortitude then AC.

Asbestos
2008-10-30, 11:14 AM
I Disagree. On Average, a monsters AC (Usually ~14+level) is 1.39 higher then its Fortitude, 2.75 higher then its reflex, and 3.31 higher then its will (Source (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/229092-lots-statistics-monster-manual.html)). Because of this, having a +3 proficiency weapon means your hitting more then an implement user attacking Fortitude or reflex, and just slightly below the implement user attacking will.


Incorrect. Only brutes tend to have higher fortitude then AC.

That's an average of like... all the monsters in the MM correct? The 'average monster' being everything added up, regardless of role?

Kurald Galain
2008-10-30, 11:28 AM
That's an average of like... all the monsters in the MM correct? The 'average monster' being everything added up, regardless of role?

Yes, but it's split out by role.

Artillery Brute Controller Lurker Minion Skirmisher Soldier
Fortitude - AC -1.89 0.86 -1.84 -2.86 -1.90 -2.04 -1.55
Reflex - AC -1.69 -2.55 -2.95 -1.50 -3.15 -2.06 -4.29
Will - AC -2.67 -2.71 -2.19 -3.52 -4.00 -3.79 -4.39

Mando Knight
2008-10-30, 12:35 PM
Yes, but it's split out by role.

Artillery Brute Controller Lurker Minion Skirmisher Soldier
Fortitude - AC -1.89 0.86 -1.84 -2.86 -1.90 -2.04 -1.55
Reflex - AC -1.69 -2.55 -2.95 -1.50 -3.15 -2.06 -4.29
Will - AC -2.67 -2.71 -2.19 -3.52 -4.00 -3.79 -4.39

Argh... use tables, please!

{table=head]AC-Defense|Artillery|Brute|Controller|Lurker|Minion|S kirmisher|Soldier
Fort|1.89|-0.86|1.84|2.86|1.90|2.04|1.55
Ref|1.69|2.55|2.95|1.50|3.15|2.06|4.29
Will|2.67|2.71|2.19|3.52|4.00|3.79|4.39[/table]

Anyway, my way of finagling the Astral Fire bonus and the Weapon Focus bonus into the same attack is that one activates when you use your weapon, and the other activates when you use a radiant or fire based power; like how Fast Runner activates when you run/charge, and Fleet-Footed changes your movement speed, and they stack.

Artanis
2008-10-30, 12:36 PM
*really spiffy chart*


Aww, Ninja'd. :smallfrown:



Guess I should add something useful to the conversation then :smalltongue:

Astral Fire says it adds a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls when using a power with the Radiant or Fire keywords.
Weapon Focus says it adds a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls when attacking with the relevant weapon.

So it looks to me that:
1) They don't stack, and
2) The fact that it's radiant damage is in and of itself irrelevant.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-30, 12:50 PM
Anyway, my way of finagling the Astral Fire bonus and the Weapon Focus bonus into the same attack is that one activates when you use your weapon, and the other activates when you use a radiant or fire based power; like how Fast Runner activates when you run/charge, and Fleet-Footed changes your movement speed, and they stack.

The difference is that AF and WF both give feat bonuses, where as FR and FF don't. The manual specifically states that two feat bonuses to the same thing do not stack. This is not a gray area (unlike many other things); RAW is perfectly clear on the matter.

Nevertheless some people may be able to convince their DMs otherwise, of course. It's not like it'd make much of a difference, balance-wise, and those "+1 to damage if" feats are really not all that great anyway.

exodus_dragon
2008-11-13, 04:27 AM
The most important thing to remember also is that the book is a guideline. Just something to give a DM an idea of how the mechanics should work with the game. To me as a DM they arent actual rules that govern the game, especially since a lot of DM's Home brew.

Again though as for the dmg bonus they are two separet bonuses as they give to different types of bonus dmg. and only activate for certain situations. such as astral fire activates when using a holy/fire based ability or key worded ability. and the other only activates if you are using hte specified wep. thus they provide two entirely different bonuses. However i do believe it also states in the PHB that only item bonuses dont stack...such as elven cloak giving bonuses to all defenses, and say and armor that gives a bonus to a defense....you only accept the better of the two. or armor and a ring of prot. for items you always assume the better of hte two and disregard the smaller amount. Feats dont work that way unless specifically stated.

Ceaon
2008-11-13, 04:57 AM
Feats dont work that way unless specifically stated.

Player's Handbook, page 192.

Bonuses from the same source (in this case 'feat') don't stack. Only untyped bonuses and bonuses from different sources stack.