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View Full Version : Yay, trivial disputes over roleplaying... (INT v. WIS)



Neko Toast
2008-10-29, 11:55 PM
I got back from a D&D session an hour ago (3.5 ed.). Things went by smoothly, for the most part. There was one dispute in the middle of the session, however.

The characters that were there (ie. The ones who actually make an effort to show up every week), were me (me being a Half-elf rogue), a female elven druid, a male elven wizard (both were temporarily absent at the time, but were filled in on the story), a male human monk, and a female centaur fighter.

The dispute we had was about the centaur. This centaur was from a somewhat barbaric tribe (and yet, she's a fighter...) deep in the woods, and discovered a small town, where our game currently takes place, one day. Said centaur refers to herself in the third person, doesn't speak perfect Common, and is a little on the slow side. No issue there.

However, frequently the centaur would act just downright stupid. Like, unnaturally stupid. The centaur apparently had no ability to tell time whatsoever, and would make a lot of decisions where, quite frankly, the rock of common sense would be thrown at the head.

I inquired why the centaur would make such horrible decisions, and she claimed that it was because her Intelligence score is 8. She claimed that this meant that centaurs were supposed to be stupid creatures.

(Really, who's ever heard of a stupid centaur?)

This made no sense, to both me and the DM, because "common sense" and "intuitiveness" didn't fall under Intelligence. It fell under Wisdom. Intelligence lies under solving problems or working in a profession, like potion-brewing and whatnot.

So, I asked her what her WIS score was. It was 13.

I tried to explain to her that, considering the average WIS of a human is 10, and that hers is 13, that she isn't as stupid as she's making her out to be, and that, as a roleplayer, she may be overdoing it. The DM backed me up on this. It's alright if a character is slow, but for God's sake, they should be able to tell time, or figure out a bad idea from a good one.

This frustrated and apparently angered the person, and they left soon after, claiming they had "something to do."

The DM looked up the definitions of WIS and INT after she had left, and I had made a good point.

I wasn't accusing her of being a bad roleplayer. I wasn't insulting her. I was just trying to tell her that she was overly playing the character's naivety, and on false information.

I still know that this is all my fault, her storming out an all, being the one that brought it up.

Does anyone else think that I had made a good point, or was I just being a jerk?

FoE
2008-10-29, 11:59 PM
Could you describe what some of these incredibly stupid decisions were?

Neko Toast
2008-10-30, 12:04 AM
Attacking a friendly Goliath who was carrying the intoxicated monk off to the Monastery, where he could rest.

Attacking me, for merely slapping someone upside the head ( the one being slapped upside the head was a kid who was poking fun at her in the first place. She said that she thought I was "attacking" the kid ).

Various things of this nature.

FoE
2008-10-30, 12:13 AM
Ah. That clears it. You were in the right.

1) It's one thing to role-play, and it's another to role-play in a deliberately disruptive manner. Which this girl was doing.

2) Stats shouldn't be used like a club to beat the DM/other players over the head with. Just because I have high Intellegience doesn't mean I get to solve puzzles instantly, and a high Charisma stat doesn't mean every girl in the party should be in love with me. Likewise, I shouldn't let low stats turn my character into a useless twit.

3) In any case, an Intelligience score of 8 is hardly as dumb as rocks, and shouldn't be played that way. Especially when coupled with a Wisdom of 13.

Dim, yes. Stupid, no.

Neko Toast
2008-10-30, 12:13 AM
Also note, her alignment is good. Shoulda mentioned that.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-30, 12:19 AM
I guess this is more a MUSHing rule, but never tell people how to RP their characters. It's pretty offensive, really. "You're doing it wrong!"

That said, it's obvious the player was just making excuses for playing disruptively. Players like that shouldn't be tolerated.

Neko Toast
2008-10-30, 12:21 AM
Ah. That clears it. You were in the right.

1) It's one thing to role-play, and it's another to role-play in a deliberately disruptive manner. Which this girl was doing.

2) Stats shouldn't be used like a club to beat the DM/other players over the head with. Just because I have high Intellegience doesn't mean I get to solve puzzles instantly, and a high Charisma stat doesn't mean every girl in the party should be in love with me. Likewise, I shouldn't let low stats turn my character into a useless twit.

3) In any case, an Intelligience score of 8 is hardly as dumb as rocks, and shouldn't be played that way. Especially when coupled with a Wisdom of 13.

Dim, yes. Stupid, no.

*whew* Thanks.
I just feel kinda bad because she stormed off. I wasn't trying to be offensive at all.
But both the DM and the monk in our party (the only other two that were at the table with me by then. Drood and wiz came back later) told me that it would have been brought up eventually, and that I had a point.


I guess this is more a MUSHing rule, but never tell people how to RP their characters. It's pretty offensive, really. "You're doing it wrong!"

That said, it's obvious the player was just making excuses for playing disruptively. Players like that shouldn't be tolerated.

I never meant it like that at all!
She was doing alright, it was just overboard...

Ganurath
2008-10-30, 12:22 AM
Also note, her alignment is good. Shoulda mentioned that.Not if she's attacking people for helping her and her friends.

Kizara
2008-10-30, 12:28 AM
Could you please use the default font?

Your font is has a sort of chicken-scratch look to it and it is painful to read.

There's no shame in using the default font, and it is there for a reason (easy to read, mainly).

Neko Toast
2008-10-30, 12:30 AM
Could you please use the default font?

Your font is has a sort of chicken-scratch look to it and it is painful to read.

There's no shame in using the default font, and it is there for a reason (easy to read, mainly).
Changed it.
Sorry about that.
Just a dreadful habit of mine.

Defiant
2008-10-30, 12:30 AM
I would say that an 8 INT is nothing big. Neither is an 8 WIS. You can do slight adjustments to your role playing, but overall it should be too much of an issue compared to regular play. When it starts to go to 7 or below is when you can get creative(ly naive or dumb).

You were in the right (in my opinion), and as long as you tried to address the issue to the best of your diplomatic abilities, then it's all good.


There's no shame in using the default font, and it is there for a reason (easy to read, mainly).

FOR SHAME!!!

Kizara
2008-10-30, 12:31 AM
Changed it.
Sorry about that.
Just a dreadful habit of mine.

Thank you.

Much better.

Grynning
2008-10-30, 12:38 AM
I don't think your actions were "offensive" per se...the other player may have been a bit over-sensitive. However, one thing I've found out is that things never sound the same way to the person you're saying them to as they do to you. I sometimes get accused of being a jerk because my natural speaking mannerisms seem pedantic and condescending to some people, even though I totally don't mean to sound that way. Regardless, for the sake of preserving the group, in this situation, you may want to apologize. Have the DM or other players explain to them that the only reason it was brought up was because of the unwanted disruption and that if they would cut that out, they can keep playing their centaur as dumb as they want.

Your assessment of attributes and the way they work is correct though. Int 8 is not completely idiotic...it's slightly below average. It's the kid who made C's and D's in school even when they tried hard but was still able to graduate. I also agree that things like telling time or interpreting social actions would fall under the purview of Wisdom.

Neko Toast
2008-10-30, 12:42 AM
Regardless, for the sake of preserving the group, in this situation, you may want to apologize.

I want to, but somehow I feel like not saying anything for the time being, and just letting it blow over might be for the best.
The person didn't sound furious when they left, just very annoyed.
Plus, before this whole thing started, we were buddies. We share a common obsession of Zelda games and everything.

turkishproverb
2008-10-30, 12:48 AM
Well, an 8 anything shouldn't cause dysfunction THAT severe, though I think alot of whether you were out of hand depends on the groups normal etiquette.

half eaten oreo
2008-10-30, 01:14 AM
As a DM I have a similar player. Tends to play dumb as rocks fighters without an ounce of common sense. Particularly annoying when he plays an orc/half orc and his explanation for his every stupid action is "hey I'm a half orc". Recently he got charmed and was trying to convince me his character's logical reaction would be to attack his new "friend", after all "he's a half orc, they are violent and love to fight". :smallmad:

THAC0
2008-10-30, 01:46 AM
Sometimes it can be fun, though. Like the dumb-as-rocks half orc who refused to be knighted by smelly elves, and developed a feud with my gnome character that lead to a (temporarily) disease infected me biting him and infecting him in the middle of a dungeon.

But some people take it overboard.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-30, 04:58 AM
Well, an 8 anything shouldn't cause dysfunction THAT severe, though I think alot of whether you were out of hand depends on the groups normal etiquette.

The standard deviation of 3d6 (which I guess we can use, since 4d6drop1 is for PCs) would be around 3.5, and 68.2% of the population falls within +/- 1 SD, so ~60% of the entire human population would have all scores (including INT and WIS) between 7 and 13...

So, really, INT and WIS 8 are average. The kind of people you meet every single day and don't really find particularly stupid (unless, of course, you're really arrogant). Someone with INT 8 and WIS 13 is pretty unremarkable mentally; a bit more observant than average, maybe, and a bit worse at recalling facts or retaining information.

Narmoth
2008-10-30, 05:30 AM
Basically, a bad int stat limits how many bright ideas the character comes up with. A bad wis stat limits the characters ability to deside if an idea is good or bad.

Oslecamo
2008-10-30, 05:34 AM
Recently he got charmed and was trying to convince me his character's logical reaction would be to attack his new "friend", after all "he's a half orc, they are violent and love to fight". :smallmad:

This is more true than it seems. Once Wotc said that if you managed to charm the tarrasque, it would try to eat you anyway, because the only thing he knows about is destruction.

So if his character was the kind of violent guy who thinks the best way to solve any problem is smash it with a pointy stick, then charm wouldn't really affect him.

jcsw
2008-10-30, 06:17 AM
This is more true than it seems. Once Wotc said that if you managed to charm the tarrasque, it would try to eat you anyway, because the only thing he knows about is destruction.

So if his character was the kind of violent guy who thinks the best way to solve any problem is smash it with a pointy stick, then charm wouldn't really affect him.

Imo, if you had to choose between someone who was your bestest friend forever and someone who is merely a (ordinary) friend to attack, I'd choose to attack the ordinary friend.
So at the very least, the charmer gets to make the charisma check to get the half orc to attack his party.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-30, 06:45 AM
Using your stats as an excuse to act like a jerk is no different than using your class, alignment, or any other character feature to act like a jerk. This player leaving was probably only for the better.

Zeta Kai
2008-10-30, 07:08 AM
I agree. From what the OP's revealed so far, the player seems to have deliberately chosen to use her character's (slightly) poor INT as an excuse to be disruptive & combative. She also is ignoring her alignment & her (slightly) good WIS, both of which should tell her that her behavior is inappropriate. If the DM can reign her in, then don't feel bad about her leaving in an angry huff over some innocent RP advice. It sounds like just another player who just wants to tear down the walls of a campaign for kicks.

I normally ere on the side of "don't tell others how to roleplay", but this player takes it way too far, way too little justification.

Tormsskull
2008-10-30, 07:10 AM
This is one of those situations where it is better to talk things out. Perhaps this player had a lot of fun playing this sort of dim-witted centaur. If you didn't like the way the player was roleplaying, you could have talked to her away from the game and tried to come to a friendly conclusion.

So, final verdict would simply be a misunderstanding. Something you guys should easily be able to talk through.

Good luck.

Duke of URL
2008-10-30, 07:11 AM
High WIS, low INT should be intuitive, but hard to train/learn. Decent common sense, but likely to be superstitious and resistant to change.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-30, 08:08 AM
So if his character was the kind of violent guy who thinks the best way to solve any problem is smash it with a pointy stick, then charm wouldn't really affect him.

Of course it would. The person who cast the charm is no longer a problem to be smashed.

Mark Hall
2008-10-30, 09:28 AM
No, you shouldn't tell someone how to role-play their character. You can, however, tell them that they're being a <expletive deleted>.

8 intelligence does not mean retarded. It means "slightly slow"; the average half-orc doesn't set himself on fire trying to light a cigarette.

Charity
2008-10-30, 09:58 AM
No thats transvestite dwarves

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG22a.jpg

valadil
2008-10-30, 09:59 AM
Sometimes it takes a while to get into a new character. You have to try on the new persona and make adjustments. It can also be difficult for overly intelligent people to figure out how smart someone dumber than themselves should be. Sounds like she went a little overboard.

Regarding her playing her character wrong, the character in her head may not be accurately represented by the character on her sheet. Maybe she wanted to play a complete moron, but when she rolled for stats and 8 was her lowest. I don't think she should alter the concept of her character based on what the dice tell her to do. A while back I had a GM tell us to pick our stats based on what we expected of our characters. It was daunting, but gave us all exactly the stats for the characters we envisioned.

Oslecamo
2008-10-30, 10:00 AM
Of course it would. The person who cast the charm is no longer a problem to be smashed.

What if he's a sadistic cruel bondage/snuff guy and believes death is the best experience anyone can receive? In that case charming him would definetely not be a very good idea.:smallbiggrin:

Well, he wouldn't be much of a good party member either.

snoopy13a
2008-10-30, 10:06 AM
Someone with a Int of 8 and a Wis of 13 would be "street smart" not "book smart".

The below table basically gives the chances of rolling that number or less. Someone with an intelligence of 8 is smarter than 16.2 of the population but is not as smart as 25.9% of the population. However, a 13 Wisdom person is wiser than 74.1% of the population. That is a fairly high. They are definetly below average in regards to Int (even someone with an intelligence of 10 is slightly below average) but it shouldn't impair most activities. They will be able to read and write, speak normally, etc.

Unless the characters are working in an environment that tests their intellectual capabilities, this character will actually seem intelligent because his high wisdom helps him make right decisons and gives him good common sense. He is better than average in reading other's emotions and body language and may even be a clever jokester. He can't design bridges, navigate a ship, balance the merchant guild's books, or study arcane magic but these aren't everyday activities.

I'd think for a character's low intelligence to start being noticable in speech and simple activities, they'd have to be 5 or less which would be the bottom 5% or even 4 or less which would be the bottom 2%.

3 0.5% 215 : 1
4 1.9% 53 : 1
5 4.6% 20.6 : 1
6 9.3% 9.8 : 1
7 16.2% 5.2 : 1
8 25.9% 2.9 : 1
9 37.5% 1.7 : 1
10 50.0% 1 : 1
11 62.5% 1 : 1.7
12 74.1% 1 : 2.9
13 83.8% 1 : 5.2
14 90.7% 1 : 9.8
15 95.4% 1 : 20.6
16 98.1% 1 : 53
17 99.5% 1 : 215
18 100% 1 : inf

hamishspence
2008-10-30, 10:13 AM
Thats actually rather preferable to IQ= INT x10. Though, NPCs are virtually never statted out randomly, but with Common array- 3 10s and 3 11s.

snoopy13a
2008-10-30, 10:26 AM
Thats actually rather preferable to IQ= INT x10. Though, NPCs are virtually never statted out randomly, but with Common array- 3 10s and 3 11s.

I agree.

If one wants to translate Int into IQ, I think that they should first convert Int score into percentile and then convert percentile into IQ scores.

Here's IQ Percentile for the Stanford-Binet IQ Scale:

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/IQtable.aspx

A 18 Int (1/216 chance) corresponds almost with a 139 IQ (1/215 chance). A 3 Int corresponds around a 61-62 IQ.

Neko Toast
2008-10-30, 10:30 AM
Sometimes it takes a while to get into a new character. You have to try on the new persona and make adjustments. It can also be difficult for overly intelligent people to figure out how smart someone dumber than themselves should be. Sounds like she went a little overboard.

I can understand that, as some of my best characters went through the same thing. It takes a bit to get used to it. But... I dunno, they just seem to be playing the "idiot" card a little too much. I wouldn't have had a problem with it if their character wasn't disruptive, but they nearly knocked my character unconscious (at the time, my HP was a flimsy score of 8. ie: I was level 1), and tried to grapple a Goliath who was, quite obviously, not threatening, but in fact helping someone who had been hallucinating off of an elven brew. Not to mention that the Goliath is the DM's NPC, and is likely to be traveling with us on adventures.

hamishspence
2008-10-30, 10:54 AM
1 or 2 Int can happen for people who have been damaged by a disease or poison that does ability drain. Best Guess is probably only option for representing IQ of such a person.

Venerable
2008-10-30, 11:17 AM
I'll second Valadil's post. Suggest to the player and the DM that she restat her character to bring it in line with the character she's actually playing.

Zeta Kai
2008-10-30, 11:24 AM
Regarding her playing her character wrong, the character in her head may not be accurately represented by the character on her sheet. Maybe she wanted to play a complete moron, but when she rolled for stats and 8 was her lowest. I don't think she should alter the concept of her character based on what the dice tell her to do. A while back I had a GM tell us to pick our stats based on what we expected of our characters. It was daunting, but gave us all exactly the stats for the characters we envisioned.

I would normally agree with you, & in fact my initial reaction to the OP's complaint was along the same line of thought, but as I read more, my opinion was changed. This problem player is using an INT of 8 as an excuse to disrupt the game & attack allies, including other PCs. This is not exceptable behavior from a PC with a Good alignment, & it's not fair to the other players (who presumably aren't itching for a fight). At the least, the DM should demand a Will save to maintain her alignment. I'd probably make her Neutral , as well as inflict her PC with a blight that would sap her INT down to a number that more accurately reflects her persona (around 3 or 4). If she continued to be disruptive & aggressive, I'd make her Evil & take her sheet. The end.

valadil
2008-10-30, 11:26 AM
Zeta Kai, that's fair too. To be honest I glossed over most of the examples and was mostly responding to her playing a character dumber than her 8 int.

Blue Paladin
2008-10-30, 11:50 AM
(Really, who's ever heard of a stupid centaur?)The fact that the answer is not "everyone" saddens me. Centaurs are a brutish, primitive race prone to drunkenness and pointless fighting at the drop of a hat. Cheiron is an exception, not the rule (http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/KentauroiThessalioi.html). Despite all the current (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foaly) rage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oreius) depicting (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Firenze) otherwise... Oddly, WoW seems to have gotten it right (http://www.wowwiki.com/Centaur). Props to Blizzard.

I wasn't accusing her of being a bad roleplayer. I wasn't insulting her. I was just trying to tell her that she was overly playing the character's naivety, and on false information.Replace the word "wasn't" with "didn't think I was".

[THOUGHT EXERCISE]
Change your frame of reference. Did you ever think that she's playing the role to the hilt?

A "Goliath who was carrying the intoxicated monk off". What's that? Some nigh-giant stranger trying to kidnap one of my herd? While he's helpless, no less! Unhoof him, varlet! Pick on someone your own size category! For the unimaginative centaur, attacking is as emphatic as diplomacy gets.

Attacking the Rogue for "slapping [a kid] upside the head". I've seen this guy absolutely slaughter beasties with his sneak attack. Leave the foal alone! He's done nothing to earn the splattered kidneys that you deal out on a regular basis. It's not like I need some overbearing stallion to defend me from a child's whickering, either. A nip in the flank (i.e. attack) is the clearest expression of disapproval.

And after you've done all this awesome characterization in your head, one of the guys in your group says, "Stop that. You're doing it wrong." What the hell? A demonstration of herd thinking, and an example of a mare's instinct to protect foals, and this guy has the gall to say I'm not playing "right"?[/THOUGHT EXERCISE]

Does anyone else think that I had made a good point, or was I just being a jerk?Both. Belittling another player's RP is bad form. That said, her character's actions are disrupting other players' enjoyment of game. That's a very different issue, and IMO the far more important one.

Jayabalard
2008-10-30, 12:07 PM
(Really, who's ever heard of a stupid centaur?)I have, and obviously she has.

Some of the stuff that you mention may not be "stupid decisions" but rather a refusal to play a centaur as a human in a rubber suit. Both a total lack of ability to tell time, and decisions that make no sense from a human perspective can be in character. You're out of line to tell her that she's doing it wrong.

On the other hand, if her play style is being disruptive, you're totally in line to tell her that.


Does anyone else think that I had made a good point, or was I just being a jerk?From your description, it sounds more like the latter, since it sounds like you told her she was doing it wrong rather than she was playing in a disruptive manner.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-30, 12:37 PM
Someone with a Int of 8 and a Wis of 13 would be "street smart" not "book smart".


Ugh, not this again.

Intelligence is the ability to come up with solutions and to learn fast. Wisdom is insight and the ability to judge. A typical rogue has good intelligence, but medium wisdom. Are you saying that clerics are more street smart than rogues?


No thats transvestite dwarves
<image>

But he looks so manly in his armored... skirt... thing.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-30, 12:47 PM
Intelligence is the ability to come up with solutions and to learn fast. Wisdom is insight and the ability to judge.

Seems like lots of people (and also, lots of systems and even editions) have different conceptions of what the mental stats actually mean. It not as controversial as what alignment means, but getting these.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-10-30, 12:50 PM
But he looks so manly in his armored... skirt... thing.It be a kilt!

Seems like lots of people (and also, lots of systems and even editions) have different conceptions of what the mental stats actually mean. It not as controversial as what alignment means, but getting these.What Tengu says is backed up by game rules, though. High intelligence gets you more skill points (learning faster) and allows you to do more complex things mentally. Wisdom gives you bonuses to all sense-based skills (insight into/perception of the world and those around you).

A high-Wisdom person is street smart because they can tell when someone's about to shank them. A high-Intelligence person is street smart because they can easily learn how to avoid being shanked. A high-Charisma person (just to get into 4.0 Streetwise) is street smart because he makes friends with the people who might want to shank him.

That overgeneralized enough?

Tengu_temp
2008-10-30, 12:54 PM
It's not a kilt if it's not tartan.

Mark Hall
2008-10-30, 01:37 PM
It's not a kilt if it's not tartan.

I see little reason why a dwarven clan would need a tartan to have a kilt.

(Though, when you get down to it, a great kilt is just a fancy dress... but there's little reason men can't wear dresses, aside from societal prejudices, which dwarves may not have).

snoopy13a
2008-10-30, 01:38 PM
Ugh, not this again.

Intelligence is the ability to come up with solutions and to learn fast. Wisdom is insight and the ability to judge. A typical rogue has good intelligence, but medium wisdom. Are you saying that clerics are more street smart than rogues?





Well, wisdom is:

"Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. "

Perception, intuition, and common sense are essentially what make up "street smarts". The reason a rogue is more street smart is because of their usual skill set (sense motive, spot, gather information, listen, etc) not their inborn abilities. Since these are not cleric class skills, the cleric is not more street smart.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-30, 01:48 PM
The reason a rogue is more street smart is because of their usual skill set (sense motive, spot, gather information, listen, etc) not their inborn abilities.

Exactly my point - it's Knowledge/thiefy skills that decide how book/street smart a character is. Not ability scores.

Oslecamo
2008-10-30, 01:49 PM
Ugh, not this again.

Intelligence is the ability to come up with solutions and to learn fast. Wisdom is insight and the ability to judge. A typical rogue has good intelligence, but medium wisdom. Are you saying that clerics are more street smart than rogues?



It takes street smartness to trick people into geting into your religion and explaining why your god is the best of them all, not book smartness.

This is, clerics normally preach to the masses, not the intelegent elite.

After all, who makes more money and has better reputation? The thief who hides in the sewers and is hunted by the guards or the cleric who has a golden church and talks directly to the nobles?

They both got their money from tricking people, but the cleric is in a much better position than the rogue, since he's more street smart. Why take stuff from people when you can tell them to give it to you in return for joining your awesome religion?

Telonius
2008-10-30, 01:58 PM
One thing that kind of struck me from the original poster, is the issue of INT vs WIS, as applies to culture.

Leaving aside the fact that this particular player was being a royal pain in the butt, it doesn't seem all that unreasonable that a non-human character like a centaur would have a little bit of trouble with concepts like hours. Not knowing it doesn't mean you're unintelligent. It just means you're ignorant. If a centaur usually measures time based on which constellations were rising or setting at night, or on phases of the moon, or something like that, it would be perfectly natural for them to be puzzled with human-time. A high-WIS centaur would realize that there's some sort of a discrepancy between the concepts, and also have some inkling about what this "o'clock" thing is, that the humans keep talking about. A low-WIS centaur would just think, "Bah, more human gibberish." What would distinguish a high-INT centaur from a low-INT one, would be how long it took them to figure out the mathematical formula on how to convert centaur-time into human-time and vice versa.

Telonius
2008-10-30, 02:03 PM
It takes street smartness to trick people into geting into your religion and explaining why your god is the best of them all, not book smartness.

This is, clerics normally preach to the masses, not the intelegent elite.

After all, who makes more money and has better reputation? The thief who hides in the sewers and is hunted by the guards or the cleric who has a golden church and talks directly to the nobles?

They both got their money from tricking people, but the cleric is in a much better position than the rogue, since he's more street smart. Why take stuff from people when you can tell them to give it to you in return for joining your awesome religion?

I think that has more to do with the local Aristocrats having street smarts, than the Clerics having street smarts.

Skjaldbakka
2008-10-30, 02:06 PM
Yeah, an 8 stat is generally considered to be average intelligence. I don't even roleplay an 8 stat as anything major, except in a point buy game, in which case an 8 is your lowest non-racial penalty stat, so I will consider an 8 con character in a point buy game to be sickly, whereas if we rolled, I won't roleplay that as sickly unless it is a 7 or less.

The way I've seen people 'roleplay' low intelligence charcters is that they won't keep any notes for the character. If they don't remember something, their character doesn't remember either. Which works for some people, but not for me personally, since I don't take notes well anyway. Just not how I retain information.

TRM
2008-10-30, 02:12 PM
I'll second Valadil's post. Suggest to the player and the DM that she restat her character to bring it in line with the character she's actually playing.
The real problem here aren't the stats, it's the disruption. From the way I've interpreted the OP's posts, what she wants is for the player to cease being disruptive and doesn't care unduly about playing the centaur "wrong."

So I advise that you (the OP) talk to the disruptive player. Tell her that she needs to stop attacking the other PCs and try harder to get along with the rest of the party.

If she argues, saying that she's justified because her intelligence is so low, then you can pull out the "you're wrong" card; give her evidence to the contrary, let her know that a low intelligence coupled with a high wisdom gives a character that is slow to learn, but not a complete idiot—they have common sense.

This approach shouldn't seem like a critique of her role-playing ability; you'll explain the real problem civilly and then, if she's rational and civil herself, the problem will be solved. Profit!

Piedmon_Sama
2008-10-30, 02:14 PM
It takes street smartness to trick people into geting into your religion and explaining why your god is the best of them all, not book smartness.

This is, clerics normally preach to the masses, not the intelegent elite.

After all, who makes more money and has better reputation? The thief who hides in the sewers and is hunted by the guards or the cleric who has a golden church and talks directly to the nobles?

They both got their money from tricking people, but the cleric is in a much better position than the rogue, since he's more street smart. Why take stuff from people when you can tell them to give it to you in return for joining your awesome religion?

Not to in any way present this as a critique or opinion piece on the Church, but way back in the Middle Ages this actually was a problem. The elite clerics tended to be scholarly types who didn't communicate well with the masses. On the other hand, popular preachers usually came up from the lower classes and had neither teaching nor license to preach--and they could come up with all kinds of wild, even heretical ideas. The Church outlawed unlicensed preaching and came close to declaring popular apostolic movements like the early Franciscans heretical, several times. They were necessary, as the Church had almost no other way to effectively communicate with the masses, but a serious danger to organized dogma.

You can replicate this yourself with the Evangelist PrC in Complete Divine. Now your Cha 14 Rogue can See The Light and start spreading the word, any word. And get disturbing amounts of listeners.

Neko Toast
2008-10-30, 02:29 PM
Referencing to those who said that I was saying "Ur Doin it wrong":

It was never like that at all. I was not questioning her actual roleplaying ability. Other than the attacking of others, she was quite entertaining as a roleplayer. I was questioning her decisions to attack other people that were, quite obviously, doing nothing wrong, which was obviously "going overboard", as I originally stated. Her alignment is Good, so I couldn't understand why she was doing it. Blaming it on an 8 INT didn't seem like a valid excuse.

Back on the conception of time subject:

I do know that a centaur's auto language is definitely not Common, so it is perfectly understandable that she didn't know what the word "hour" meant, let alone the concept behind it. This character, however, had no concept of time whatsoever. Also note: earlier in the game, she used her tracking skills to find the monk in our party. A centaur with tracking skills should at least have a concept of time, as in the position of the sun, or something of that nature.

TRM
2008-10-30, 02:51 PM
Referencing to those who said that I was saying "Ur Doin it wrong":

It was never like that at all. I was not questioning her actual roleplaying ability. Other than the attacking of others, she was quite entertaining as a roleplayer. I was questioning her decisions to attack other people that were, quite obviously, doing nothing wrong, which was obviously "going overboard", as I originally stated. Her alignment is Good, so I couldn't understand why she was doing it. Blaming it on an 8 INT didn't seem like a valid excuse.

Back on the conception of time subject:

I do know that a centaur's auto language is definitely not Common, so it is perfectly understandable that she didn't know what the word "hour" meant, let alone the concept behind it. This character, however, had no concept of time whatsoever. Also note: earlier in the game, she used her tracking skills to find the monk in our party. A centaur with tracking skills should at least have a concept of time, as in the position of the sun, or something of that nature.
Read my, naturally, brilliant and insightful post above.

I wouldn't be surprised if the other player thought you were telling her she was "doing it wrong." People are irrational like that; I recommend talking and explaining that she's being disruptive. Be honest but polite. The two together can work wonders. (It sounds like you're friends, so it shouldn't be a huge problem.)