[3.5] Anyone know a more active Homebrewing board?

[newbDM]

Although usually (and eventually) you might get some very good advice on here, this forum is really slow, and it seems like there are only a handful of active members on here.

I wish I could contribute more myself, but I am not nearly experienced enough to advise others on their works.

I remember that once upon a time the WotC forums were great for all this stuff, but that has no longer been the case for a while now.


Anyone know any other good forums/sites for this kind of stuff?

[afroakuma]

This board's been fairly good; the PEACH stamp usually draws enough constructive criticism, and reasonable requests in the Request thread get filled. I know several members prowl here often, myself included, although people like AstralFire have been missing of late.

It's just that time of year, I think, and these boards will be slower for it.

Other boards with decent homebrew activity are the ENWorld forums and Wizards' boards.

[newbDM]

This board's been fairly good; the PEACH stamp usually draws enough constructive criticism, and reasonable requests in the Request thread get filled. I know several members prowl here often, myself included, although people like AstralFire have been missing of late.

It's just that time of year, I think, and these boards will be slower for it.

Other boards with decent homebrew activity are the ENWorld forums and Wizards' boards.

I see. Thanks for the information.

I will stop by the ENWorld board when I get back home tonight.

And I hope you are right about it picking up. But what do you mean about :this time of year"?


Oh, and I have never understood what PEACH means. I saw it quite a bit over at the WotC (Wizards of the Coast) board before it went down hill, but I never knew what it was. Now you mention it here, so I am guessing it is an internet-wide term.

[afroakuma]

It's listed over in the Gaming forum's abbreviations guide. Please Examine And Critique Honestly.

As for "this time of year," high school and university midterms, start of Americanadian major holiday seasons and usually a peak time for extracurricular activities for those with kids.

[Zeta Kai]

Considering the factors listed by Afro, I'd say that we're doing quite well. This is one of the best homebrew forums I've seen (which is why I actually post here).

[afroakuma]

Concur. There is a wealth of stuff available here, and the organization (both board-wide and personal) in bringing together this much homebrew is quite ideal; better than most. Plus you get access to Zeta's massive FFX project, Fax's preposterous database of everything ever, AstralFire's homebrew RPG system (which I'm playtesting now, and it's working well), Vorpal Tribble's inspired monster creations, and a flood of user-input projects and design contests.

It's actually pretty darn active. We're just in a lull at the moment.

[sigurd]

You're welcome to look around but I don't think there is anything I've seen more active. Perhaps the wizard boards have been a little more but I haven't been there since Gleemax.

Things are a little slow but some people are torn between 3rd and 4th ed others are just sick of it. I don't think 4ed will get the same level of commitment and originality that 3ed did. It could be we're splitting our focus and energies.

I don't know of a more active or more productive board. If you find one tell us.


Sigurd

[afroakuma]

Things are a little slow but some people are torn between 3rd and 4th ed others are just sick of it. I don't think 4ed will get the same level of commitment and originality that 3ed did. It could be we're splitting our focus and energies.

I missed that factor.

[Kellus]

Yeah. A lot of it is just that it's a busy time of year. I try to be active when I can, but lately I've been consumed by schooling and work.

[arguskos]

And hey, if you leave, you won't see my smiling face anymore! /sarcasm
:smallbiggrin:

Also, this board is great. afroakuma, Zeta Kai, AstralFire, Kizuna, Kellus, Fax_Celestis, etc... these posters all rock at life here. So do some of your projects, actually, newbDM. Don't leave us!! /shamelessadoration

-argus

[Zeta Kai]

Also, this board is great. afroakuma, Zeta Kai, AstralFire, Kizuna, Kellus, Fax_Celestis, etc... these posters all rock at life here.

Thank you very much, but you forgot Vorpal Tribble, Krimm Blackleaf, & the Demented One. They are also made of awesome-sauce, & have been around longer than most of us young turks.

[afroakuma]

Indeed. I'm quite surprised to find myself associated with Fax et. al, having only been here since April. Tribble, Krimm and the Demented One are true masters.

[arguskos]

OMG! How did I forget Krimm, Vorpal, and Demented?? They are great as well. Masters, all of them. :smallsmile:

On that note, where's Demented One been recently? He around still?

-argus

[newbDM]

And hey, if you leave, you won't see my smiling face anymore! /sarcasm
:smallbiggrin:

Also, this board is great. afroakuma, Zeta Kai, AstralFire, Kizuna, Kellus, Fax_Celestis, etc... these posters all rock at life here. So do some of your projects, actually, newbDM. Don't leave us!! /shamelessadoration

-argus

Oh no!

I have NO intentions of leaving. I personally love these forums too much.

I guess I am just accustomed to more fast-paced forums, so I am still not 100% used to it. I also believe that this might have been a misconception on my part, due to comparing this forum to the General Gaming one, and since I have noticed a large decrease in the D&D (previous) forums.

And I think that the divide between people into the 3ed and 4ed groups might also be a big part of my misconception. And sadly, as the years go by there will be less and less of us. :smallfrown:

[afroakuma]

Something tells me 3.X will hold on for a while yet. 4E isn't enough of a draw.

[newbDM]

Oh, and thank you all for the help you have continuously given me on here.

I am very grateful to you all!



p.s. I also think the number of threads going without a single reply might also be why I was confused.

[afroakuma]

If it's 4E, doesn't have a PEACH callsign and/or requires material from a lesser-known source, it's less likely to garner immediate attention.

[Magnor Criol]

Afro's right, it's just a slow time of year right now, I think.

For what it's worth, I've liked most all the stuff you've been posting in here; you always seem to have it pretty well thought out, and the illustrations are a nice bonus. I just rarely have anything to add to the discussion that hasn't already been said, so I just move on...

[Zeta Kai]

Something tells me 3.X will hold on for a while yet. 4E isn't enough of a draw.

Well, having perused the 4E books, I can tell you now that I wouldn't touch them again with your hand. 3E is the place to be.

[afroakuma]

The part that floored me in 4E (and still leaves a sour taste in my mouth) was reading the following: "HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion."

First thought to cross my mind: "Correct, on the grounds that a missed attack never damages an anything. This literally reads as 'Special Ability: Does not die when not harmed.'"

3.X will pull along for a long time. I would hazard a guess that we may even see a few more published supplements.

[MythMage]

This is, in fact, one of the busiest homebrew forums around. I'm actually not aware of any that are significantly faster.

You might want to try posting things on multiple forums. I've tried that trick before, and it really does work even if it does take more time. I posted a PrC on Wizards, Dicefreaks, and ENworld simultaneously and only got one or two replies each, but adding them all together got me a pretty comprehensive review. Everyone picked up on different aspects of it. It was nice.

So, here's some other forums to consider:

http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/ (Dicefreaks - a little slow lately, but there are some real gems among the membership who are still active)
http://www.thecbg.org/ (the Campaign Builder's Guild - best if you're interested in worldbuilding)

[RTGoodman]

Like the others have said, I think this is a pretty active homebrew community, for both 3.x and 4E stuff. I've been focusing on 4E lately, but I think there's actually a pretty good mix of editions and a BIG group of people that actually homebrew - some aren't as prodigious as VT, Krimm, etc., but check out VT's monster threads, the number of people that participated in Swampgas (even though it's sort of fallen to the wayside), and stuff like that to see that we do have a pretty good community.

[Magnor Criol]

3.X will pull along for a long time. I would hazard a guess that we may even see a few more published supplements.

I'd be very surprised if we saw new WotC 3.5 supplements. From what I've seen of WotC's actions up to and since the release of 4E (and mind you, I've not done a case study or anything - really, it's just what I see on these forums plus a little bit extra), they know that 4E is only tenuously accepted, so they're responding by rabidly latching on to 4E, and only 4E. 3.5 may as well not exist to them now, I think; I think they feel if they do anything for 3.5 anymore, that will be seen as them saying "Alright, we goofed, 4E isn't as good" and they can't take that risk, whether it's true or not.

tl;dr WotC can't afford to do anything but support 4E and only 4E, because anything else could cost way too much reputation.

[afroakuma]

Rules Compendium came out pretty darn late. If there's enough of a market, releasing another compendium product would not be unheard of or lose them too much face.

[Lappy9000]

Maaaan, I check this place about 6 times a day and comment whenever and wherever I can to keep things active, even though I fear being stamped as "that guy who never offers relevant critique."


p.s. I also think the number of threads going without a single reply might also be why I was confused.

It's difficult sometimes. You don't want to post for the sake of posting, especially if you don't have any knowledge or maybe even have no interest of the subject. Saying "Good Job, but crunch critique ain't my thing," can seem repetitive (at least when I do it myself), but sometimes it's that one post that keeps people going.

I'm really impressed with how active GiTP is overall. Heck, look at the Gaming d20 forum. Posting here is just more difficult and time-consuming (usually).

And yeah, 4e homebrew; there's no SRD and will never be (to my knowledge), and this saddens me greatly :smallfrown:

[KKL]

First thought to cross my mind: "Correct, on the grounds that a missed attack never damages an anything. This literally reads as 'Special Ability: Does not die when not harmed.'"

Reaping Strike, a Fighter's At-Will, deals damage on a miss.

There are also a metric ****ton of other powers that deal damage on a miss. So no, it's not redundant.

[afroakuma]

Oh, I'm aware. But that is the gut reaction it provokes to someone who's cracked open the Monster Manual first.

[Debihuman]

WotC's forums are still fairly active. I still post there on occassion. The boards are probably more active for 4e than for 3.5 due to 4e being "official" now. I would be VERY surprised if WotC put out any 3.5 supplements since it is not in their best interest to do so. 3.5 is still an option because 1. the OGL cannot be revoked and 2. so far, some 3rd-party publishers are still supporting it, at least for now.

As I've stated earlier [under Debihuman on the WotC site or as Debby2 there] 4e is very different from 3.5, and it is easier for new gamers to enjoy. Unfortunately, the rules are not compatible. Yes, in 4e, a missed attack can still cause damage! That's a big change from 3.5 and not the only change.

Paizo losing the license to Dragon and Dungeon magazines was the last straw for me. The Paizo forum boards are fairly active. Yes, Paizo will be marketing a new OGL game based on their Pathfinder series using their house rules so it won't be exactly 3.5. It's being test marketed wildly and getting good reviews. Some call it 3.75 but really it's just their tweaks for OGL.

The GSL was too restrictive for some publishers, so the flow from 3.5 was slower than expected. Many publishers have their own forums so you can check for more support for 3.5 there. However, WotC isn't stupid. The GSL has been revamped to accomodate 3rd-party publishers so I suspect that the creation of new 3.5 will eventually come to a slow trickle except for a few games that have strong followings: Mutants and Masterminds, d20 Modern, True 20, Pathfinder, and a few others.

The biggest pull for 4e has been coming from Goodman Games which is going to stop making ALL their 3.5 available by the end of the year. I suspect sales have been very slow for them so selling at a discount is better than no sales at all. They have sales at all the online e-stores like Paizo, RPGNow, etc. In my opinion, they are going to be selling only 4e products once they feel the 3.5 market is tapped out.

The interest in 3.5 has definitely slowed in the last year. In this economy, it may be more difficult to support the older system. The market is dwindling as more players change to 4e and new players have no choice but to go 4e for their Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual.

If the economy were better, it would be easier for publishers to support 2 lines, but everyone is tightening their belts. People just can't afford two systems.

Debby

[Zeta Kai]

I was more insulted by the near-complete removal of fluff & the insultingly-formulaic names in the MM. Everything was a "Crushgrip Stalker" or a "Bonesnap Impaler". What's next? The Spinerape Garroter? The Babysmack Furnisher? The lack of imagination & realistic names basically makes the DM's job harder, because they have to either fluff everything from scratch, or do without it entirely. Inconveniencing the DM is against the stated design philosophy.

I also hate how so many monster illustrations are these multi-monster group shots. So, I have no flavor text to read to my players, so how do I describe the creature that they about to fight? Well, I would use the picture in the book, but it's tangled up with 3 other monsters that I hadn't planned on introducing until a later encounter. What can I tell my players? "Uh, yeah, ignore the other guys in the picture there. The one you're fighting is in the second row, third from the right."

Mechanically, the monsters might be sound (or not), but the presentation in the book is little better than a bestiary in the back of a video game strategy guide, with which there are many unsettling similarities.

[Debihuman]

Actually, those silly names started in 3.5 with the last couple of monster manuals. I own a lot of 3rd party monster guides and frankly, people are simply unable to come up with good monster names. The good ones have all been taken. Cringing over bad names for monsters is fairly standard everywhere.

I suspect the lack of fluff is simply that most monsters are there just for the encounter and nobody much needs the fluff any more. It's sad. I just love reading the monster ecologies. On the other hand, I don't remember the last time the "ecology" mattered during a game. Do PCs really care about the breeding and habitats of monsters? As a reader, I care, but as a player, it really didn't matter unless there was some real benefit to knowing.

BTW, ENWorld is still converting all the 2nd ed monsters to 3.5 so I really recommend taking a look at those forums. It's under homebrews and it's not the easiest to find but it's there. EnWorld upgraded its forums so things were shaky for a while but it is looking much better now. I tend to lurk here a lot but I haven't posted in ages.

Debby

[afroakuma]

The Babysmack Furnisher?

If such a monster existed, I would totally use it.

Wait a tic... I'm a homebrewer...

Zeta, I'm blaming you for it! :smallbiggrin:

Myself, I hated that what fluff they did present was terribly dumbed down. Five alignments instead of nine, with two of them essentially being "More Good" and "More Evil," the Planes made into some sort of Pokeball shape etc.

It's a game that really has little to do with Dungeons & Dragons as a whole.

[Zeta Kai]

The GSL is a greedy, heavyhanded insult to publishers, & the 4E SRD is unusable garbage. From what I can tell, it's 4E that has only a trickle of third-party content. I find it hard to believe that they nobody at WotC saw this kind of antipathy towards their new edition coming. It's a controversial ruleset, with many changes to things that could have remained basically the same, coupled with a change to the business model that's more dependent on supplemental material (like mats & figures) & a new attitude towards third-party publishers that could be described as antagonistic. They made an array of risky gambles, & nobody should be surprised that not all of them are paying off.

[Debihuman]

Zeta, I have to respectfully disagree with you. What you call greed, I call good marketing. WotC didn't insult 3rd party publishers but it did make it more difficult for them to jump into 4e. If you recall, the initial glut of 3rd party products in 3e resulted in a lot of really poorly written and poorly designed products as it was clear the rules weren't understood. Just read John Cooper's reviews with all his corrections of 3rd party products to see what I mean.

Furthermore, products like The Book of Erotic Fantasy were not condoned by WotC. They (WotC) can't stop such products in 3.5 but they can in 4e by holding the licenses tighter. They have quality control, something they didn't and don't have with 3e.

In light of the economy now, this is actually good for WotC. As the 4e market grows and with fewer products available, the products that do become available will make more money. If the economy were better, 3.5 would still be lucrative. Now, I'm not so sure.

Initially the GSL made 3rd party publishers nervous as they felt that they couldn't have both 3.5 products and 4e products but that restriction is being reconsidered See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080811.

I don't know the status of GSL, but from the number of companies now going forward with 4e, I suspect some of the flaws have been fixed. For example, Necromancer Games was going for 4e then backed off, but is now going forward again. Goodman Games is going strictly 4e at some point in the future. I suspect the dwindling 3.5 market is a big part of it. There was a lot of competition in 3.5 -- and the economy could support the vast array. The market has changed and it will have an impact.

Debby

[Magnor Criol]

Greed and good marketing are simply different perspectives on the same thing, I think; with greed representing the negative connotation of taking it too far. And 'taking it too far' is a subjective judgment, so really, that largely boils down to "po-tay-to, po-tah-to", I think.

One thing I disagree with you about, milady Debi, is the concept that WotC should keep a tight leash on things, with the BoEF as an example.

I don't think that just because they didn't condone the BoEF, that they should tighten control as a result so they can stop it from happening again. That suggests that everything published, by WotC or otherwise, should fit the same idea of the game that WotC has.

Now, legally, I suppose I can see some recourse - they are the ones who came up with the mechanics in the first place. But regardless, I think putting more limits on who can published and what they can publish is a bad idea PR-wise, financially in the long run, and in the general sense of the game.

I think that's a horrible direction for a game like DnD, which is based on creative impulses and exchanges. I mean, just look at the forum we're posting on: it's all about houserules and homebrews. DnD is what you make of it, and I think the idea of limiting output based on DnD because it doesn't align with your creative vision is a type of censorship that is aberrant to the idea of DnD itself.

The more they clamp down, the more antagonistic they appear to those who would be involved with their system, and the more antagonistic they seem, the more negative emotions surround the game. The more negative emotions, the less people and products come into play. I'm not saying that it'll lead to everyone abandoning the system; simply that, in the longer run, I firmly believe that open content leads to more participation, and thus, more money for all involved.

Note my use of ambiguous, relative terms like "seem to appear". Nothing I'm talking about is in absolutes, just general trends. They aren't necessarily being antagonistic, they just seem to be antagonistic, and that's enough, in many cases. They won't drive everyone away, they'll just attract less and retain fewer than otherwise. And so on. I mention this only so that you understand I'm not predicting some sort of insta-doom for WotC. :smalltongue: I'm not one for hyperbole or extremes. I just think they're making self-impeding choices.

[arguskos]

Actually, those silly names started in 3.5 with the last couple of monster manuals. I own a lot of 3rd party monster guides and frankly, people are simply unable to come up with good monster names. The good ones have all been taken. Cringing over bad names for monsters is fairly standard everywhere.

I suspect the lack of fluff is simply that most monsters are there just for the encounter and nobody much needs the fluff any more. It's sad. I just love reading the monster ecologies. On the other hand, I don't remember the last time the "ecology" mattered during a game. Do PCs really care about the breeding and habitats of monsters? As a reader, I care, but as a player, it really didn't matter unless there was some real benefit to knowing.
While I respect this opinion, I have to disagree with you here Debby. I own every 3.5 MM (counting the Fiend Folio, the two Fiendish Codex's, and many other books with good monster sections) produced by WoTC, and I have to say that they all have plenty of great monster names. Sure, they have their bad ones (Bearhound anyone? I mean... really. :smallannoyed:), but for the most part, they are excellent books. For example, here are some great names from many books:

MM1: Thoqqua, Shadow Mastiff, Kolyarut
MM2: Desmodu, Spell Weaver, Famine Spirit
MM3: Ssvaklor, Chraal, Visilight
MM4: Holocaust Disciple, Balhannoth, Wrackspawn
MM5: Frostwind Virago, Illurien, Spirrax
Fiend Folio: Nerra, Zodar, Ethergaunt

Also, to stave off the incoming point about third-party supplements, yes, they are quite variable in quality. However, we are not talking about third-party stuff here. This is about the lack of quality material in a core rulebook for a popular, well-funded product from a company that is quite capable of putting out better material than this. See my above examples for quality names that came from this same company, and all are excellent.

As an amusing aside (alliteration ftw?), I personally love the ecology sections as a DM. I have used the information contained within to great effect more than a few times. :smallwink:

I would go on about the failings of 4th Edition as a successor to the Dungeons and Dragons throne, but in the interest of keeping this conversation civil on all sides, I will refrain (not personal mind you, but these conversations tend to get heated quickly). My only comment is this: to each his own! :smallsmile:

-argus

[sigurd]

Hasbro will do what it has to - making a profit is what it concentrates on. The D20, OGL, SRD(s), GSL are all optional for them. I think the D20 served WOTC very, very well - witness December when their competition has to be pulled from the shelves but that doesn't change that we should be grateful they introduced them at all.

I think the OGL is a special case because it can't be revoked. It is an honest place to start building a shared ruleset. I hope the OGL becomes the larger draw for players and home brewers. I'm not too worried about publishers, really. They will follow the gamers.

I'm not 4e bashing, but I think it has a publishing weakness over 3e. Besides not encouraging outside publishers, it has moved the level of world abstraction further into 'game' and away from simulation. 4e encapsulates a lot of rules into powers and special actions that are fairly well defined in scope and outcome - there is less room for tweaking.

Simulation is a huge draw for homebrew because everything is a fair topic. If I write about a special kind of underwear for 3e it affects everything else in the game world. The relationships in 3e are for the most part causal and based on the premise that 'everything' has to be considered. A DM will modify things of course, but if I say 'dragon skin underwear makes you thirsty' (or something equally weird) I can make a case for how it affects anything. IMHO, 3e rules are more closely tied to basic setting principles and simulation logic. I think it gives you a greater license to experiment in the setting.

In 4e, the weird is more often irrelevant because nobody is going to rewrite all the powers. There is less confusion but there is also less variety and realism. I think people will tire of the different powers because they aren't as obviously drawn from the core mechanics of the world. They are more static and, I think, will get uninteresting faster. People will munchkin all the available powers and select the most powerful and then abandon them because they're done, or find the powers are mostly the same because they share the same game design principles.

I think the strength of D&D and role playing has been in the gray areas. 4e reduces the gray areas and, I think, weakens the story telling. I won't deny that 4e looks much easier to run. Perhaps 4e popularity will explode with the more tactical gamers but for me it feels wrong. I'm a dreamy, story-based gamer and I'll keep the old rules or find another game.

my .02

Sigurd

And yes, there are really great home brewers here. Thanks everyone.

[arguskos]

Concerning the OGL for 4e, I can see the idea that it gives WoTC quality control powers. I also would call that BS. WoTC can handle their own quality control, and by controlling others, they are restricting the material other companies put out. It's not really their job you know. Besides, looking at the 3.5 third-party field, it was, on the whole, excellent. Iron Kingdoms? Great. Book of Erotic Fantasy? Good discussion on the subject matter within the context of 3.5.

I think that stifling the third-party market is a bad financial decision, and that it is going to bite them in the arse pretty soon. I hope that Hasbro and WoTC pull their act together and realize that if they don't lighten up, 4e isn't going to do as well as they want it to.

*sigh* :smallsigh:

-argus

EDIT: Ok, NOW I'll leave well-enough alone! :smallbiggrin:

[Lappy9000]

Just because these things seem to sprout up unnoticed, just wanted to remind everyone that this is becoming a 3.X / 4e discussion post, which is cool if newbDM's okay with it, this being his thread.

Assuming we're proceeding with this, my only real beef with 4e is fluff, which is eaisly altered (I unfortunatly don't have the interest to do so, as all my creative juices are being thrown into my own projects). The other problem is the cash issue. I'm aware WOTC is a company, and therefore the goal is to make cash-monies. That doesn't mean, however, that I like having to buy several books worth of core material to get access to everything.

In 3.5, I can DM with a Player's Handbook, some pencils, paper, and a set of dice. Nothing more. In 4e, I feel like I would have to purchase more and more $35.00 core books to have full access to the game. There's not even gonna be a System Reference Document.

And I am cheap. So very very cheap.

[afroakuma]

And I am cheap. So very very cheap.

I've decided to haunt your every move forever with this quote, Lappy. Happy Halloween.

[sigurd]

Lappy is right - I've started another thread

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95315

Anyone wanting to discuss homebrewing and different editions is welcome there.

My apologies to newbDM

Sigurd