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View Full Version : [3.5] Is there any way to make a good Rogue Archer?



Frosty
2008-10-30, 07:47 PM
Assuming you have access to most 3.5 books (no psionics. No tome of magic), how would you build a really effective Rogue who uses a bow? She has to be fairly decent at providing ranged damage, but not be a one trick pony in battle. Race must be normal human. Level 13. Must have at least 7 levels in Rogue. 40 pt-buy. I'm thinking of maybe getting up to Rogue level 10 to get Crippling Strike, and then use Greater Manyshot to try to deal up to 6 str damage a turn. The only problem is how to do this without relying on Greater Invisibility.

Heliomance
2008-10-30, 07:49 PM
The Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0)

Frosty
2008-10-30, 07:55 PM
I realize that Rogues are not optimal. Scouts and Rangers are much better, but the NPC I'm building is a rogue, so I'm looking for more of a Rogue handbook that focuses on Archery rather than just an archery handbook.

ocato
2008-10-30, 07:57 PM
I think the greater manyshot cripple rogue might provide a decent threat to your players. I'd consider giving him a wand or item of invisibility or an item of greater invisibility so he can sneak attack with regularity.

Frosty
2008-10-30, 08:03 PM
It's an NPC that will sometimes travel *with* the players actually, so it's generally not supposed to fight the players. Although there is another NPC debuffer that travels with them sometimes so I don't suppose I should go that route too much. Still, strength damage can be effective.

Draz74
2008-10-30, 08:12 PM
I'd say the Educated feat, lots of Knowledge ranks, and Knowledge Devotion.

Factotum dip allowed? :smalltongue:

Solo type? Or working with a party? Because sniping is a good archer style, but only if your party isn't sitting around getting bored while you slowly whittle away your opponents with sniping.

Frosty
2008-10-30, 08:18 PM
I'd say the Educated feat, lots of Knowledge ranks, and Knowledge Devotion.

Factotum dip allowed? :smalltongue:

Solo type? Or working with a party? Because sniping is a good archer style, but only if your party isn't sitting around getting bored while you slowly whittle away your opponents with sniping.

Mechanics-wise, she'll want to work well in a team setting. She'll never really battle without teammates. When she goes solo, I have DM-fiat on what happens anyways. Factotum dips are perfectly allowable. Sniping...doesn't sound like it'd work with Sneak Attack.

Where is the Educated feat from?

Curmudgeon
2008-10-30, 08:45 PM
Where is the Educated feat from?
It's actually Education, and it's on both page 52 of Eberron Campaign Setting and page 38 of Player's Guide to Faerun. Basically it's a level 1-only feat that makes all Knowledge skills class skills for you, for all your classes. Along with Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) it can give some pretty good bonuses versus all types of enemies.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I'd rather take a 1-level Cloistered Cleric dip (Knowledge domain makes all Knowledge skills class skills for the CC) plus Able Learner (Races of Destiny) at level 1. The advantage is you get to choose 2 other domains (such as Elf to pick up Point Blank Shot as the granted power), plus a few spells. You could take the Magic domain and be able to use all wands of Cleric and Wizard spells (Greater Invisibility!) without any Use Magic Device training. You also gain Speak Language, Concentration, Heal, and Spellcraft as class skills, and all skills (not just Knowledge skills) will cost just 1 point per rank.

Frosty
2008-10-30, 08:52 PM
Is it better than a one level dip in Factotum and then table Able Learner?

RTGoodman
2008-10-30, 08:53 PM
Sniping...doesn't sound like it'd work with Sneak Attack.

To me, sniping doesn't seem very effective even WITHOUT considering the 30-foot limitation on SA. If you want to go that route though, you should be able to find a feat for it. (Crossbow Sniper (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Crossbow_Sniper,all) does it, and there's probably been something else printed that allows it.)


Where is the Educated feat from?

I'm not sure if it's been printed in Core, but I'm pretty sure Education (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Education_(E),all) has been in various setting sourcebooks.


EDIT: Man, hella-ninja'd.

Draz74
2008-10-30, 08:55 PM
'Course, if Factotum dip is OK, you can start as a Factotum and take Able Learner instead of Educated. On the plus side, that means you get all skills as class skills forever, not just Knowledge, and you don't have to use FR material. On the minus side, you have to be [Human], and it's cheesy.

On the other plus side, you can add your Int bonus (which should be one of your best two stats) to an attack roll, damage roll (including a crit or manyshot), or save twice per encounter. And start looking for ACF's to trade away the Rogue's Trapfinding, since you'll get Trapfinding from Factotum anyway.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-30, 08:55 PM
Sniping...doesn't sound like it'd work with Sneak Attack.

Please tell me you where kidding.

Draz74
2008-10-30, 08:57 PM
Please tell me you where kidding.

He has long-distance sniping in mind, which unfortunately indeed doesn't work with Sneak Attack.

Sniping can work from anywhere between 10' and 30', though.

Frosty
2008-10-30, 08:57 PM
She's already human. And I don't see it as cheesy to spend a feat to get all skills as class skills forever.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-30, 09:02 PM
Since Magic Item Compendium introduced the rule that spell trigger devices have the same activation time as the spells they contain, you can use a wand of Sniper's Shot: all shots for the round can be sneak attacks regardless of distance. Since a 1-level Cloistered Cleric dip with the Magic domain will let you use all Cleric and Wizard wands, you're good to go.

Draz74
2008-10-30, 09:03 PM
She's already human. And I don't see it as cheesy to spend a feat to get all skills as class skills forever.

OK, then your only remaining problem is that now you'll keep getting tempted to take more Factotum levels. :smallcool:

Brains Over Brawn sure is good stuff for an intelligent skill monkey.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-30, 09:15 PM
He has long-distance sniping in mind, which unfortunately indeed doesn't work with Sneak Attack.

Sniping can work from anywhere between 10' and 30', though.

except for Crossbow sniper and taking that feat from RotW, woodland sniper which allows you to re-hide after an attack... beautiful for sniping.

Frosty
2008-10-30, 09:16 PM
Maybe I'll just abandon this idea and make a melee-rogue instead. I've houseruled the TWF tree into one feat. Thinking of doing something like

Factotum 1/Swashbuckler3/Rogue7/Swordsage2

Feats include: Weapon Finesse (bonus feat), Able Learner, Knowledge Devotion, Craven, TWF, Daring Outlaw, Shadow Blade.

This way, she gets Wis to AC, both Int and Dex to damage, Dex to hit, and Int to hit (after spending an Inspiration point). She can be in assassin's stance, which will net her a total of 7d6 sneak attack damage. And she'll have various Boosts to help her get Sneak Attack damage. When she runs out of those, she'll switch to another stance (Island of Blades) that allows her to flank so much more often that she's almost guaranteed to do sneak attack.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-30, 09:36 PM
If you're going for melee, make sure you pick up the Penetrating Strike alternative class feature (swap for trap sense) to deal 1/2 normal sneak attack damage to those normally immune. It only works against foes you flank.

I still don't understand why you don't want to go the magic wand route. Lots of spells can augment your sneak attack options.

Frosty
2008-10-30, 09:49 PM
Not her style. Also, oozes are not that common. Undead and Constructs can be taken care of by Weapon Crystals.

Who_Da_Halfling
2008-10-31, 04:03 AM
I can't help but think that the intial prompt for this thread reminds me a lot of a certain red-headed rogue we know of... (or as she would prefer, Wealth Redistribution Specialist)

-JM

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-31, 04:28 AM
Archery is a pretty big issue for Rogues due to the lack of proficiency and the ranged limit, though it synergizes well with the stats. therefore, due to the feat-starved nature of the Rogue, you need at least one dip. 13th level means 2 BAB short of an additional attack. Rogues need a way to flank or activate SA reliably, which is harder at range. Rogue 8/Ranger 5 means 3 attacks, 4 after Rapid Shot, and the Ranger ACF from PHB 2 means all of your attacks except the first are considered flanking(you are your own ally). If possible, Rogue 8/Ranger 4/SA Fighter 1 is better on damage, but rough on skills. Grab Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Craven, maybe Dead Eye, Manyshot and Greater for when you have to move, and whatever else fits the concept. Dump everything into Dex, a good chunk into Con, a 12 into Wis, and as much into Int and Str as you can spare. Cha, as always, is the dump. Go Light Armor, a +3 Composite Longbow, and snag the Weapon Augment Crystals to SA the most commonly immune stuff. Take anything to boost your SA range, too. 30' is less than a move. 60 is better, 70+ is perfect.

Proven_Paradox
2008-10-31, 05:16 AM
You might consider a swordsage dip--there's the second level boost Cloak of Deception, which is improved invisibility for one round. It'd only work once per maneuver recharge, but that's some hella sneak attack for that round without needing a wand. It also gets you some other nice boosts and counters. Counter charge is great to keep those who get to close at bay, sudden leap is good for getting some movement, and so on. Give her a decent wisdom score and take a two level dip for wis to AC. Go with the unarmed swordsage and she has an automatic back-up for if they close in.

If you're not set on bows, you could try going into Master Thrower and use sneaky shot with darts for something more consistent.

(Paradox says: There is no non-caster build with less than heavy armor that swordsage cannot make better!)

Eldran
2008-10-31, 07:23 AM
If you are still willing to give the ranged sneak attack option a chance...

then I would say that the (shortly mentioned above) "Deadeye Shot" from PHB2 really is a good solution.
The importance here lies in the teamplay aspect of the feat's use. Your NPC would be depending on a PC and would supplement his attack. This way she does not steal the glory and the players have the feeling that they are working with her instead of just alongside (or just watching the npc exelling... which is always a danger when good npcs come into play).

KevLar
2008-10-31, 08:44 AM
'Course, if Factotum dip is OK, you can start as a Factotum and take Able Learner instead of Educated. On the plus side, that means you get all skills as class skills forever, not just Knowledge
Wait, wait, I've been wondering about Able Learner recently. I thought the exact same thing happens, but the feat actually says:

All skill ranks cost 1 skill point for you to purchase, even if the skill is cross-class for you. The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same.
So, you pay 1 skill point per rank of any skill, but you still have a limit of half ranks to your cross-class skills. Therefore, what benefit does Factotum give as a 1st level dip? None. Able Learner works the same way with any class, and you can't put more than half ranks to a cross-class skill no matter what.

Am I right? Am I wrong? What gives?

.....
Another combo (which your DM must approve, because it's a bit hazy) is Knowledge Devotion feat + Collector of Stories skill trick. Collector of stories gives you +5 to any Knowledge check to identify a monster. If you get your DM to agree that the same knowledge check identifies the monster (therefore gets the +5) and is rolled for Knowledge Devotion, you're king.

Eldariel
2008-10-31, 08:52 AM
So, you pay 1 skill point per rank of any skill, but you still have a limit of half ranks to your cross-class skills. Therefore, what benefit does Factotum give as a 1st level dip? None. Able Learner works the same way with any class, and you can't put more than half ranks to a cross-class skill no matter what.

Am I right? Am I wrong? What gives?

You're wrong. The cross-class max for a skill is equal to your level+3 if it's a class skill for any of your classes. It's right there in the PHB, or at SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm) (the last line on that page).

Telonius
2008-10-31, 09:08 AM
If lack of weapon proficiency is the problem, take a single level of Master of Masks, choosing the Gladiator mask. No feat requirements, and it gives you proficiency in all weapons (exotic included). You'll be eligible after 5th level.

I posted a TWF Pirate Rogue-ish build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5079159)in the Character Builder thread a while back. It was specifically for a halfling pirate, but it might give you some ideas if you're going TWF.

KevLar
2008-10-31, 09:17 AM
You're wrong. The cross-class max for a skill is equal to your level+3 if it's a class skill for any of your classes. It's right there in the PHB, or at SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm) (the last line on that page).
Right. Thanks.

Person_Man
2008-10-31, 11:12 AM
You can qualify for Sneak Attack every round by buying a Ring of Blinking. You can activate it every combat, and it will allow you to attack as an Invisible enemy, and it gives you excellent defense. The 20% miss chance can be negated by Pierce Magical Concealment.

Alternatively, wands with various other spells will help. Armor Lock, Greater Invisibility, Swift Invisibility, etc.

There are also half a dozen Skill Tricks that render your enemy Flat Footed.

Nevermore
2008-10-31, 12:41 PM
Crossbow sniper works great for this, if you're willing to use a Crossbow instead of a longbow

Draz74
2008-10-31, 04:08 PM
If lack of weapon proficiency is the problem, take a single level of Master of Masks, choosing the Gladiator mask. No feat requirements, and it gives you proficiency in all weapons (exotic included). You'll be eligible after 5th level.

Yeah, but Master of Masks is otherwise pretty weak. One level of Factotum or Swashbuckler or Fighter or whatever gives you all martial weapons (e.g. longbows, kukris ...) anyway. So unless you're set on an exotic weapon, I wouldn't bother with this Gladiator Mask madness.