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Hzurr
2008-10-31, 03:41 PM
So a player in my (4E) campaign recently decided to make a new character, a str-based cleric of Bahamet. His backstory is actually decent (compared with what he usually comes up with), and ties in well with several of the other party members.

The problem is, he's a cleric of Bahamet, who really doesn't do...anything that Bahamet does. The most recent issue was using intimidate every time he got a chance (including threatening a begger with death for asking for money).

Now, I plan on speaking with him, reminding him that he's a cleric of the Lawful good diety of justice, however, I have a sinking feeling it won't make much of a difference, because all of his characters are pretty much the same (KILL THINGS, LOOT THEM, THREATEN THEM!), regardless of class.

Now, there is a place for that kind of character, even a place for that kind of cleric, but as a cleric of Bahamut? If it was Kord...yeah, I can see that, but Bahamut? Eh...not so much.

Here's the question: What should happen to a cleric who continually acts in a manor contrary to his diety? I know alignment and behavior rules are a bit...fuzzy in 4E, but there should be limits since he's playing a very Chaotic-Neutral character while serving as the cleric of a Lawful Good diety.

Ironically, we actually have a Paladin of Bahamut, as well as another cleric of Bahamut in the party, who are doing a pretty decent job of being good (although the other cleric is still a bit on the "chaotic" side of good, but I'm not too worried about him), so it's not like he doesn't have examples of how followers of the big B should behave.

(Also, is it just me, or is it really weird that in 4E a cleric can get away with having a 10 wisdom? I mean, I understand that you can have a cleric who focuses on str, but a 10 wis? Really?

hamishspence
2008-10-31, 03:46 PM
a 4th ed cleric by the rules can get away with anything, since 4th ed has no rules for Falling.

There is much argument over this, but PHB has no rules for clerics losing powers when they change alignment. Remember any cleric can start out unaligned, whatever alignment of their deity.

PHB recommends angels and more orthodox clerics express their displeasure some, to the erring cleric. Doesn't have to be really heavy, but he needs a hint.

Bouregard
2008-10-31, 03:47 PM
Maybe he meets one of his superiors who watch him do something what violate his clerical oats. That one could either strip him from his titles or exclude him from the church or remind him of his duties. If he's really that violent I would recommend meet him a whole party of his brothers.

arguskos
2008-10-31, 03:48 PM
Personally, I'd tell him that Bahamut appears to him in a dream, and scolds him for acting in way contrary to what he desires or exemplifies. If the cleric continues to act that way, strip him of his powers, as a punishment from Bahamut, until he atones in a proper manner. Make sure Bahamut informs the cleric why he no longer is granting the cleric power.

-argus

Winged One
2008-10-31, 03:49 PM
You might also want to get the other followers of Bahumat in the party in on it somehow. PCs tend to listen to each other more than they listen to NPCs.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-31, 03:54 PM
a 4th ed cleric by the rules can get away with anything, since 4th ed has no rules for Falling.

There is much argument over this, but PHB has no rules for clerics losing powers when they change alignment. Remember any cleric can start out unaligned, whatever alignment of their deity.

PHB recommends angels and more orthodox clerics express their displeasure some, to the erring cleric. Doesn't have to be really heavy, but he needs a hint.

Irrelevant. The DM is there to fill the void left by rules, because some things can't be covered by rules. (Falling wouldn't work the same in Eberron and Faerūn, for instance, so it's better to leave it to the DM than to make a rule about it.)

Unless the game is pretty heavy roleplaying, though, it's not worth bothering with. Clerics of any deity are supposed to do what adventurers do - kill monsters and look for treasure.

Beleriphon
2008-10-31, 03:54 PM
Why not just recommend that he change alignment and the deity to Kord? He obviously doesn't want to play as one would expect of Bahamut's clerics, so encourage him to change to something more suiting.

Mando Knight
2008-10-31, 03:54 PM
If a Cleric has 10 Wis, then he's playing the wrong class. Sure, he can pick attack powers that don't deal with his Wis, but his class features that define his role depend on his Wisdom. A cleric with 10 Wis can't effectively Turn Undead or use his Healing Lore to boost his healing powers. Plus, most of the Strength attacks target AC, which tends to be the strongest defense. (Exception: Rune of Peace, a somewhat nice Strength vs. Will daily which for a Paladin/MC Cleric could be a guaranteed activation of the Divine Challenge...)

A leader with 10 Wis and any higher mental stat would be better off as a Warlord.

The other two followers of Bahamut should crack down on their impious brother, as should any followers of Bahamut that they meet along the campaign. (When details about Metallic Dragons are released, I'd suggest sending in one (Probably Gold or Silver) that chastises the flagging cleric...) The higher level he gets, the more grievous his departure from Bahamut's teaching is, so the campaign's Metallic Dragons should really get on his case for blaspheming their father's name in the Paragon-Epic tiers...

(If I sound at any time like a Bahamut fanatic, it's probably mostly because he's a dragon god and actually upholds many of my own ideals. My view of him is pretty much as D&D's literal Crystal Dragon Jesus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus)...)

Hzurr
2008-10-31, 03:57 PM
If he's really that violent I would recommend meet him a whole party of his brothers.

Ironically, 2 of the other members of the party are his in-game brothers. One is a barbarian, and one is a fighter, yet the cleric is by far the most agressive.

Heh, the barbarian is actually by far the nicest and most polite (excluding when we go into battle. Then he kills things. Hard)


If a Cleric has 10 Wis, then he's playing the wrong class

Yeah, and normally that would be a bigger issue, but in the party we have another cleric, a warlord, and a paladin as well, so he really isn't needed to fill the "leader" roll. I agree, however, that he's playing the wrong class, but he really wanted to be a cleric for some reason.

Siegel
2008-10-31, 04:03 PM
Hey. When Begging is against the law then threatening a beggar is completly ok and recomended...

hamishspence
2008-10-31, 04:05 PM
DM filling void left by rules- problem is, sometimes you are expected to play by RAW for nearly everything. Players will be saying "Its not in the book!"

Personally. I prefer it that way. Corrupt clerics, "blackguards of bahamut" can exist- a bad guy lurking at the heart of the church- can't be identified by inability to cast, because he can cast. Especially good if he thinks he's a good guy and has gone evil through extremism.

Prometheus
2008-10-31, 04:11 PM
Don't grant him spells when it acts contrary to the wishes of the deity. He is still his own man, but if he wants to be a vessel of his god he has to act like it.

hamishspence
2008-10-31, 04:13 PM
I figure power as a pipeline to his deity's realm that, no matter what, can't be switched off.

Deity won't let his clerics initiate you by opening channel to its power, if your starting alignment is unacceptable, but once channel is open, stays open.

LotharBot
2008-10-31, 04:14 PM
What you should do:

1) be direct with the player. Tell him in no uncertain terms that if he wants to be a cleric of Bahamut, he has to act in line with Bahamut.

2) understand his goal. Why does he want to be a cleric of Bahamut in particular? Does he understand what Bahamut is about? Is he trying to play out a redemption story, or is he just dense?

3) give him options. Let him know that he can change his behavior, or he can change which deity he's a cleric of, or he can change classes, or (if he wants to tell a redemption story) that you can work that into the campaign.

4) give him consequences. If he insists on playing a cleric of Bahamut AND insists on playing it "wrong", then have Bahamut stop granting him certain abilities. He can still hit stuff for x[W]+STR, but take away the bonuses that seem to be directly divine.

Mark Hall
2008-10-31, 04:17 PM
Hzurr, you left out the best part: He's incredibly racist towards anyone who isn't a dragonborn... and the human cleric is, too.

In my note to Hzurr (when playing understated character, I think letting the GM know why you're doing what you're doing is important), I actually used the phrase "a flumph woven out of reeds" to describe an alternate physical form for Bahamut that might not confuse this particular cleric so much.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-10-31, 04:37 PM
I like to have the church monitor their clerics. If other Bahamant Clerics and Paladins start to hear about this guy who's being a little out of character than they might want to check up on him.

Jimp
2008-10-31, 04:49 PM
Maybe he meets one of his superiors who watch him do something what violate his clerical oats. That one could either strip him from his titles or exclude him from the church or remind him of his duties. If he's really that violent I would recommend meet him a whole party of his brothers.

I found this hilarious. D&D's favourite breakfast cereal for the devout?

littlechicory
2008-10-31, 04:52 PM
Maybe have his spells start backfiring or failing, leading into a quest where he has to shape up and prove himself to get them to work again.

... Or just have some higher-ups (MUCH higher-ups, since it's all too easy to underestimate the munchkins in your group) from the Church o' Bahamut come down to kick him into shape. That works, too.

Hawriel
2008-10-31, 05:00 PM
YOu has a GM have the right to play the role of GOD. Whether its the GM GOD or the RPing GOD. This cleric is no true fallower of his god. If the god is LG of justice. I see a very just punishment layed down by the high holey in this excleric. You have that right the god has that right. What i hate the most about the rules over the last ten years is that WOTC stripped out the few RP guidlines that makes sence. The clerics piety being the most deluted. The cleric (and paladin) is one of the few classes that should have a frame work on how the PC behaves. D&D is a setting just like Norse and Greek myth whare the gods take an active roll in the daily struggles of mortals. Its very fitting for a god, or another cleric, to show up in some form or another and smack the holey crap out of any one who is using their power in sinful ways.

In short Behemat him/herself excomunicates the PC. That cleric can find another class like fighter or maybe another god who likes his style startes whispering in his ear.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-10-31, 05:34 PM
4e explicitly places the regulation of worshipers in the hands of the mortal Church, not the gods. You can use that or you can not, but personally, I like it the way it is.

To that end, you can use any of a thousand different ways that mundane organizations control their members:

(1) Stories of the brutal priest of Bahamut reaches the ears of the head church. They issue an edict to their faithful that he is to be captured and brought in for judgment.

(2) A fellow priest of Bahamut witnesses the PC doing something bad and reprimands him. If he is rebuffed, then he will report the PC to the local church, to get the local chief priest to talk to the PC.

(3) One of the PC's victims complains to the local authorities. Noting that this is a heavily armed PC who is affiliated with a church, the local authority complains to the chief priest. The chief priest sends someone to rebuke the PC.

(4) Another cleric or paladin of Bahamut visits a town that the PCs have rolled through, and is surprised to see the villagers become hostile. He learns of the PC and vows to track him down and bring him to justice.

(5) The chief priest of a local Church hears of the PCs deeds and refuses to aid him unless he atones for his misdeeds.

In all honesty, though, this sounds like a player problem. Have him switch his god to Kord or someone better suited to his play style. If he really wants to play a cleric of Bahamut, then explain to him how a cleric of Bahamut should act, and say that if he doesn't try to follow his god then there will be consequences.

Mando Knight
2008-10-31, 05:54 PM
Like I said before, Bahamut's followers stand in a somewhat unique position: some of the most powerful beings in the campaign world are Bahamut's followers and compatriots. The threat of a shapeshifting, nigh-omnipotent dragon's wrath at blaspheming his deity should be enough to keep most followers of Bahamut pious... and a powerful spellcaster who claims to be a priest of Bahamut yet threatens and extorts hapless peasants would definitely invoke the wrath of a Gold or Silver Dragon.

They'll want to have a chat first... Golds especially, since they like to parley with their foes to try to redeem them first... but if the cleric ignores the chastisement of his superiors too long, then he shouldn't be surprised when an angry dragon comes to rid the world of his blaspheming flesh.

Dervag
2008-10-31, 06:19 PM
Hey. When Begging is against the law then threatening a beggar is completly ok and recomended...Not necessarily.

For example, begging may be illegal. But assault may also be illegal, and when a man with a mace threatens you with death it's assault with a deadly weapon.


I figure power as a pipeline to his deity's realm that, no matter what, can't be switched off.

Deity won't let his clerics initiate you by opening channel to its power, if your starting alignment is unacceptable, but once channel is open, stays open.If that's true, then the god will work to make sure that the powers he gives people don't get misused or used against his own interests. For example, what happens if a cleric of the fire god decides to work to start a new Ice Age? Obviously, the fire god would be opposed to this, and would need to know what is happening to prevent powers he granted from being used to harm his interests in the world.

So either he, or some of his servant clerics and creatures, should be monitoring the clerics to make sure they behave. Likewise if the cleric of a god of honor and justice stops acting honorably and justly.

Mark Hall
2008-10-31, 06:27 PM
Hey. When Begging is against the law then threatening a beggar is completly ok and recomended...

In the place we are currently, very little is against the law. They dislike slavers, not because they're slavers, but because they duck out of taxes.

Bouregard
2008-10-31, 06:38 PM
I found this hilarious. D&D's favourite breakfast cereal for the devout?

May come as a shock to you but some people don't have english as their first language :smallsmile:

But on the other hand, adventurers should had some variety in their daily diet. All those healing potions and meat-from-everything-that-not-wiggles-to-much seems to be pretty unhealthy.

KillianHawkeye
2008-10-31, 06:46 PM
For example, what happens if a cleric of the fire god decides to work to start a new Ice Age? Obviously, the fire god would be opposed to this, and would need to know what is happening to prevent powers he granted from being used to harm his interests in the world.

What if this cleric created an Ice Age in order to elevate the overall importance of fire? I mean, if the world is covered in ice, heating and shelter become slightly more important than food and water. Wouldn't an Ice Age attract more and more people into worshipping this Fire God?

Jimp
2008-10-31, 06:47 PM
May come as a shock to you but some people don't have english as their first language :smallsmile:

Sorry, I didn't mean to be offensive. I just found the fact that it spelled oats funny :smallsmile:.

Sinfire Titan
2008-10-31, 09:10 PM
I found this hilarious. D&D's favourite breakfast cereal for the devout?

I found this funnier:


continually acts in a manor contrary to his diety


So he acts inside a house that opposes Bahamut 24-7?

Tip: Continually means "without end", not repeatedly. Manner is not spelled with an "o".

Raum
2008-10-31, 09:26 PM
He appears to take the time to spell check what is obviously not his first language. Why not give him a pass on easily understood errors? His post is more understandable than some native English speakers on this forum.

Quincunx
2008-11-01, 07:31 AM
Why pass up the opportunity to grin? :smallsmile: Oats are silly. A sheaf of wheat as a heraldic device is silly enough, but the thought of an oatflake argent on a field vert just makes me giggle.

In your case, Bouregard, it did come as a shock. We thought we were safe enough poking fun at your English when you have a native's grasp upon it.

Ordinarily I'd recommend that you quest with him to change his deity, but if this is his rarity of a good background, I won't want to mess with it. Suppose you could throw a side-quest at him meant to temper his aggression and play up some other aspect of Bahamut-worship. If you don't want to single him out, test all of your players at once.

RS14
2008-11-01, 09:25 AM
Just a guess here, but it sounds like he might have only picked Bahamut because he wanted a draconic deity. If you've got access to the Draconomicon, you might suggest he look through the other deities in it. It's 3.5, but the fluff should translate just fine.

EvilElitest
2008-11-01, 09:55 AM
honestly, the deity description in 4E is so bloody vague it might as well not matter, so i'd simply just make my own, as it the player can just make up their own interoperation
from
EE

Inyssius Tor
2008-11-01, 02:13 PM
honestly, the deity description in 4E is so bloody vague it might as well not matter, so i'd simply just make my own, as it the player can just make up their own interoperation
from
EE

...what?

Ee, your quixotic crusade against 4E makes even less sense here than in any of its previous victims. Here is the 3.5 PHB's entry on Kord:

Kord
Kord, the god of strength, is chaotic good. He is known as the Brawler. Kord is the patron of athletes, especially wrestlers. His worshipers include good fighters, barbarians, and rogues. The domains he is associated with are Chaos, Good, Luck, and Strength. Kord's favored weapon is the greatsword.

Here is the 4E PH's entry on Kord:

Kord (Unaligned)
Kord is the storm god and the lord of battle. He revels in strength, battlefield prowess, and thunder. Fighters and athletes revere him. He is a mercurial god, unbridled and wild, who summons storms over land and sea; those who hope for better weather appease him with prayers and spirited toasts. He gives few commands:

> Be strong, but do not use your strength for wanton destruction.

> Be brave and scorn cowardice in any form.

> Prove your might in battle to win glory and renown.

Doomsy
2008-11-01, 02:25 PM
So a player in my (4E) campaign recently decided to make a new character, a str-based cleric of Bahamet. His backstory is actually decent (compared with what he usually comes up with), and ties in well with several of the other party members.

The problem is, he's a cleric of Bahamet, who really doesn't do...anything that Bahamet does. The most recent issue was using intimidate every time he got a chance (including threatening a begger with death for asking for money).

Now, I plan on speaking with him, reminding him that he's a cleric of the Lawful good diety of justice, however, I have a sinking feeling it won't make much of a difference, because all of his characters are pretty much the same (KILL THINGS, LOOT THEM, THREATEN THEM!), regardless of class.

Now, there is a place for that kind of character, even a place for that kind of cleric, but as a cleric of Bahamut? If it was Kord...yeah, I can see that, but Bahamut? Eh...not so much.

Here's the question: What should happen to a cleric who continually acts in a manor contrary to his diety? I know alignment and behavior rules are a bit...fuzzy in 4E, but there should be limits since he's playing a very Chaotic-Neutral character while serving as the cleric of a Lawful Good diety.

Ironically, we actually have a Paladin of Bahamut, as well as another cleric of Bahamut in the party, who are doing a pretty decent job of being good (although the other cleric is still a bit on the "chaotic" side of good, but I'm not too worried about him), so it's not like he doesn't have examples of how followers of the big B should behave.

(Also, is it just me, or is it really weird that in 4E a cleric can get away with having a 10 wisdom? I mean, I understand that you can have a cleric who focuses on str, but a 10 wis? Really?


Tell him clerics run on paladin rules now. This is why I always make clerics and paladins actually give me a code of conduct in line with their gods or their knightly order. You break it, you buy it.

Inyssius Tor
2008-11-01, 02:28 PM
Just a guess here, but it sounds like he might have only picked Bahamut because he wanted a draconic deity. If you've got access to the Draconomicon, you might suggest he look through the other deities in it. It's 3.5, but the fluff should translate just fine.

If that's the case, he might actually make a pretty good follower of Tiamat.
"Tiamat ... commands her followers to:
-- Hoard wealth, acquiring much and spending little. Wealth is its own reward.

-- Forgive no slight and leave no wrong unpunished.

-- Take what you desire from others. Those who lack the strength to defend their possessions are not worthy to own them."

EDIT: I just reread your post--your problem player has a backstory?! We could probably make better suggestions if we knew what it was...

Wulfram
2008-11-01, 02:32 PM
Have a rival church, with more compatible beliefs, tell him they like what he's doing and offer him a job - possibly with a magic item available as welcome gift. Either he can take them up on the offer, in which case your problem is solved, or he'll rededicate himself to his current faith and hopefully take the hint that his behaviour isn't appropriate to his current god and will try to reform.

Ganurath
2008-11-01, 02:37 PM
Have a rival church, with more compatible beliefs, tell him they like what he's doing and offer him a job - possibly with a magic item available as welcome gift. Either he can take them up on the offer, in which case your problem is solved, or he'll rededicate himself to his current faith and hopefully take the hint that his behaviour isn't appropriate to his current god and will try to reform.Is Hextor is 4e?

Starbuck_II
2008-11-01, 02:43 PM
honestly, the deity description in 4E is so bloody vague it might as well not matter, so i'd simply just make my own, as it the player can just make up their own interoperation
from
EE

Dude, alignment might be too vague but dieties are well defined. Better than 3rd even.
Don't let the hate cloud your vision.

Yakk
2008-11-01, 02:50 PM
If that's true, then the god will work to make sure that the powers he gives people don't get misused or used against his own interests. For example, what happens if a cleric of the fire god decides to work to start a new Ice Age? Obviously, the fire god would be opposed to this, and would need to know what is happening to prevent powers he granted from being used to harm his interests in the world.

So either he, or some of his servant clerics and creatures, should be monitoring the clerics to make sure they behave. Likewise if the cleric of a god of honor and justice stops acting honorably and justly.Exactly. Note that the other two party members who worship Bahamut will also be tainted by association with the heretic! When the investigators show up, however, it is a matter of being vs being, instead of DM fiat.

Turn the heretic's misalignment with his god into a plot point. This works even better if you can get the heretic on side.

Some other possibilities:
While the heretic is, indeed, not that aligned with Bahamut, it turns out that the main church of Bahamut is utterly corrupt! As in, has been infiltrated with followers of Tiamat to the highest level. The platnium dragon himself has been trapped by Tiamat, and his divine power is being leached away.

Meanwhile, a shell game is being played, while the church in the material plane is being corrupted from the top down.

So while the PC who isn't an ideal follower of Bahamut isn't a paragon of virtue (and possibly was blessed by a fake follower of Bahamut), that person isn't a follower of Tiamat. Now you have a campaign in which two "true followers" of Bahamut, and one shifty overly violent (but not utterly evil) follower of Bahamut, must engage in a war against the church of Bahamut itself in order to save the diety, and prevent the reign of Tiamat over the mortal plane.

This, of course, is unveiled over time. In the heroic tier, you have investigators showing up from the Church asking questions about actions. Some seem disapproving of the actions of the problematical party member, others seem neutral. The disapproving ones ... are found dead. The party is told by the neutral ones "we have it under control".

A dead-switch based message is passed from the dead investigator to the two 'upstanding' members, saying that he thinks the other two investigators are up to something.

This provides a nice heroic tier fight against heretics in their own church. Once exposed, the heretics flee. A bishop thanks the party -- and then sends them off on a mission in which they are ambushed by Kobolds and Tiamat worshippers.

Eventually they reach high heroic/paragon tier, and learn that their Bishop is actually a follower of Tiamat! This leads to a fight against the church itself, and possibly the local power structure.

As the game progresses through paragon, they learn that the rot goes higher and higher. Eventually in epic tier, they have to travel to the planes and attempt to free Bahamut and the Dragons loyal to him from the clutches of Tiamat.

The entire time, the character who is nominally a priest of Bahamut but isn't very upstanding ... is a key part of the quest to free Bahamut and save the world. ;-)

...

I mean, I understand wanting players to play your way. But grab what your players are providing, and make it epic. In 4e, priests are free to act against their deity or alignment, and one member of the party is doing it: grab it, and run with it, and blow their minds.

Mando Knight
2008-11-01, 02:53 PM
If you've got access to the Draconomicon, you might suggest he look through the other deities in it. It's 3.5, but the fluff should translate just fine.

4e's first Draconomicon (yes, there will be several), covering Chromatics, will be out this month...


...and Yakk, that is a brilliant campaign idea. May have to steal that myself some time...

kpenguin
2008-11-01, 03:04 PM
Ee, your quixotic crusade against 4E makes even less sense here than in any of its previous victims. Here is the 3.5 PHB's entry on Kord:

Totally off-tangent here, but see EE described as "Quixotic" gave me the mental image of Napoleon leading a charge of French cavalry against a windmill.

On a motorcycle!

bosssmiley
2008-11-01, 03:06 PM
Is Hextor is 4e?

Yeah, under the name of Bane. Heironyous is MIA (probably eaten by Bahamut in another blue-on-blue derailment). :smallamused:

As for the OP's errant cleric. IIRC 4E has little to say about divine characters who go against their diety's dictates (I have a personal theory that being nagged by an invisible quasi-parental authority figure tested as being unfun with the target market - but that's not germane to this thread), but there's about 30 years of existing precedent on the matter:


"Transgress your patron's ethos; lose divine favour."

If it was good enough for Gary Gygax's gaming groups, then it's good enough for yours. :smalltongue:

Incidentally, did atonement (a spell designed to handle situations such as this) make the rituals section of the 4E PHB, or was it culled?

@Sinfire Titan: Continually/continuously confusion; not uncommon.

@v: Option C) They game together. Stranger things have happened...

Zeta Kai
2008-11-01, 03:07 PM
I don't wish to be accusatory, but Mark Hall's You Know You're in Trouble When... thread posited a Cleric of Bahamut who threatened a beggar with death for asking for money. It was posted 2 hours & 23 minutes before this thread began. And neither post was edited.

This leads me to believe either:
A) coincidences are uncannily specifically coincidental, or...
B) the OP here ripped off Mark Hall's premise & passed it off as a true story of his own.

Just a thought.

Inyssius Tor
2008-11-01, 03:25 PM
You've left out a third option, Zeta:

C) They play in the same game. They both live in Houston, after all...

@V: Yes!

Drakefall
2008-11-01, 03:25 PM
I don't wish to be accusatory, but Mark Hall's You Know You're in Trouble When... thread posited a Cleric of Bahamut who threatened a beggar with death for asking for money. It was posted 2 hours & 23 minutes before this thread began. And neither post was edited.

This leads me to believe either:
A) coincidences are uncannily specifically coincidental, or...
B) the OP here ripped off Mark Hall's premise & passed it off as a true story of his own.

Just a thought.

Or, you know, option C): The two are in the same gaming group/are friends?

I don't think anyone's dumb enough to steal a problem player story just to start a thread to ask for advice on how to deal with it.:smallconfused:

EDIT: I think now is when I talk of ninja's, yes?

Aquillion
2008-11-01, 03:28 PM
Not only does 4e have no rules for falling, it specifically states that cleric's power, once invested, cannot be revoked ("what you do with your powers once you are ordained is up to you.") The worst-case scenerio, which happens if you "flagrantly and openly defy your deity’s tenets" is that you "earn the enmity of the faithful."

In 4e, becoming a cleric or Paladin involves a ritual or ordination that permanently infuses you with a non-revocable divine power. The rules very specifically bar any sort of 3e-style falling. It's even more clear with the Paladin, but the cleric's rules make it explicit as well -- if a cleric of Bahamet immediately uses their power to go on a psychotic, bloodthirsty spree of rapes and murders specifically targeted against all of Bahamet's faithful, while defecating on the god's altars and denouncing him as a false god, their abilities to channel Bahamet's divine power remain just as powerful as ever. Once a cleric, always a cleric. Of course, the rest of Bahamet's faithful would do everything possible to kill them, and Bahamet himself might assist in this (although heavy-handed divine intervention is usually not a good thing.)

And I strongly recommend against doing what some players have suggested, and dramatically houseruling the game to strip a player of their abilities based solely on your DM sense of what "feels right". The purpose of the game is for everyone to have fun. If they're interfering with other people's fun (including, possibly, yours), take them aside and talk to them out of character. If not, let them do what they enjoy. Never just take away a player's powers by DM fiat, no matter what they're doing; the 4e PHB is so dramatically explicit about reversing earlier edition's rules for this because the designers finally realized that it was simply a very, very, very bad idea.

"Play the game my way or I'll make your character useless" is no fun. If you absolutely have to have the player play the game your way (because their way is disrupting everything, or is unbearably stupid), then tell them that to their face.

hamishspence
2008-11-01, 03:36 PM
yes- thats what I said, though instead of infusion I phrased it as "unclosable conduit to deity"

Clerics as drainers of divine power- mmm! (Actually that sounds a lot like ur-priests)

Doomsy
2008-11-01, 04:19 PM
Not only does 4e have no rules for falling, it specifically states that cleric's power, once invested, cannot be revoked ("what you do with your powers once you are ordained is up to you.") The worst-case scenerio, which happens if you "flagrantly and openly defy your deity’s tenets" is that you "earn the enmity of the faithful."

In 4e, becoming a cleric or Paladin involves a ritual or ordination that permanently infuses you with a non-revocable divine power. The rules very specifically bar any sort of 3e-style falling. It's even more clear with the Paladin, but the cleric's rules make it explicit as well -- if a cleric of Bahamet immediately uses their power to go on a psychotic, bloodthirsty spree of rapes and murders specifically targeted against all of Bahamet's faithful, while defecating on the god's altars and denouncing him as a false god, their abilities to channel Bahamet's divine power remain just as powerful as ever. Once a cleric, always a cleric. Of course, the rest of Bahamet's faithful would do everything possible to kill them, and Bahamet himself might assist in this (although heavy-handed divine intervention is usually not a good thing.)

And I strongly recommend against doing what some players have suggested, and dramatically houseruling the game to strip a player of their abilities based solely on your DM sense of what "feels right". The purpose of the game is for everyone to have fun. If they're interfering with other people's fun (including, possibly, yours), take them aside and talk to them out of character. If not, let them do what they enjoy. Never just take away a player's powers by DM fiat, no matter what they're doing; the 4e PHB is so dramatically explicit about reversing earlier edition's rules for this because the designers finally realized that it was simply a very, very, very bad idea.

"Play the game my way or I'll make your character useless" is no fun. If you absolutely have to have the player play the game your way (because their way is disrupting everything, or is unbearably stupid), then tell them that to their face.


Actually, I believe it is still perfectly within the DMs rights to say you no longer receive your divine power from the god you started with. I'm not saying falling, but I'm saying basically you get a new patron who is probably the enemy of the one you screwed. This comes into the alignment issue as well, same basic thing: If you are using them seriously in your game and someone is being trouble you need to lay it out outside the game and maybe inside of it. If you are acting like a cleric of tiamat instead of a cleric of baphomet? Guess what, you *are* a cleric of tiamat now. No church or temple of baphomet is going to accept you, and most people will just assume it. And your former allies are going to do their level best to kill you if you keep using their name. You might not worship Tiamat, but given what this poster just brilliantly pointed out - it does not matter what god you actually worship once you become a paladin or a priest, or if you worship. It matters what people think of you, and think what you are.

And that is the damn DMs arena, not the PCs.

Mark Hall
2008-11-01, 04:33 PM
I don't wish to be accusatory, but Mark Hall's You Know You're in Trouble When... thread posited a Cleric of Bahamut who threatened a beggar with death for asking for money. It was posted 2 hours & 23 minutes before this thread began. And neither post was edited.

This leads me to believe either:
A) coincidences are uncannily specifically coincidental, or...
B) the OP here ripped off Mark Hall's premise & passed it off as a true story of his own.

Just a thought.

You may have noticed me make frequent posts, in response to Hzurr, about how lousy my DM is. Usually because he's just said something about how awesome my DM is. That's because he is my awesomely lousy DM. ;-)

In fact, I met him and the rest of my group via GitP message boards. I noted he was in Houston and hit him up for a fix.

Mewtarthio
2008-11-01, 04:35 PM
I don't wish to be accusatory, but Mark Hall's You Know You're in Trouble When... thread posited a Cleric of Bahamut who threatened a beggar with death for asking for money. It was posted 2 hours & 23 minutes before this thread began. And neither post was edited.

This leads me to believe either:
A) coincidences are uncannily specifically coincidental, or...
B) the OP here ripped off Mark Hall's premise & passed it off as a true story of his own.

Just a thought.

I supposed I should point out that Mark Hall has actually posted in this thread...

Aquillion
2008-11-01, 06:28 PM
Actually, I believe it is still perfectly within the DMs rights to say you no longer receive your divine power from the god you started with.Of course it is. It is also within a DM's right to say that a thunderbolt falls from the heaven and kills you instantly, no save defense roll allowed. It just isn't generally a good idea.

It is the player's prerogative to define their character, within the broad limits of the rules. If their definitions are contradictory, nonsensical, or cause problems for other people, the answer is to talk to the player, not to use DM fiat to say "By the way, you are a cleric of Tiamat now." You could give that to them as an option, but I feel it should be their choice; if they won't agree and you can't come to an agreement with them, then you probably shouldn't be playing a game together.

EvilElitest
2008-11-01, 07:06 PM
...what?

Ee, your quixotic crusade against 4E makes even less sense here than in any of its previous victims. Here is the 3.5 PHB's entry on Kord:

Or maybe it has an actual basis, as most of my complaints do.



Here is the 4E PH's entry on Kord:
Again, i would like to point out that pointing out a flaw in 3E (which i don't like that much) doesn't render my complaint about 4E any less valid. In the example you sighted, we have summery in 3E, vague and undetailed to be sure, but slightly better than the 4E one, which is just redundant. I mean, saying that people who worship kord are brave, honorable, and not cowardly/phycotic, isn't much detail.

Here is a better example, the one used by the OP, Bahamut
his commands
1) Uphold the highest ideals of honor and justice
2) Be constantly vigilant against evil and oppose it on all fronts
3) Protect the weak, liberate the oppressed, and defend just order

With commandments as vague and undetailed as that, a player can pretty much do what ever the hell they want and use "ends justifies the means" or "greater good" as a justification. Nothing says you can't do that. THe cleric in the example is perfectly justified, because at no point does the book actually define what D&D honor and justice is, let along Bahamut's interoperation of it. Europeon honor? japans? Arabia's? Which one? What is honor?

Again, the person in the OP's example is pretty much justiied in what ever they do as long as they can come up with a last second explanation.

Back to Kord, there is a more coherent code in 3E than 4E, (barely) because they at least have a basis for CG. So you have to be brave, honorable ect, within the CG definition of the idea, which is explained in context. There is an already existing basis for an understanding of Kord's beliefs, the current alignment sysystem. Now im' not going to say 3E's ssytem is perfect (hell no) but it certainly has a lot more detail in it than 4E, which is worth about as much as 3E's diplomacy, IE, never touch it, ever


Dude, alignment might be too vague but dieties are well defined. Better than 3rd even.
Don't let the hate cloud your vision.
Not really, the 4E gods are basically just half a paragraph of general description, with thre tenets written down, all of which is essentially meaningless when you realize how vague and general it is
And please don't let other threads cloud your vision



Totally off-tangent here, but see EE described as "Quixotic" gave me the mental image of Napoleon leading a charge of French cavalry against a windmill.

On a motorcycle!
On a totally unrelated note, i think i have a new sig idea.........interested my friend

Aquillion, let me get this straight, your basically saying that players shouldn't be held to any sense code in order to get their niffty powers
from
EE

Zeta Kai
2008-11-01, 08:05 PM
You may have noticed me make frequent posts, in response to Hzurr, about how lousy my DM is. Usually because he's just said something about how awesome my DM is. That's because he is my awesomely lousy DM. ;-)

Damn, I thought I had something there... I guess that makes me an awesomely lousy detective. :smallbiggrin:

Mark Hall
2008-11-01, 09:01 PM
Here is a better example, the one used by the OP, Bahamut
his commands
1) Uphold the highest ideals of honor and justice
2) Be constantly vigilant against evil and oppose it on all fronts
3) Protect the weak, liberate the oppressed, and defend just order

With commandments as vague and undetailed as that, a player can pretty much do what ever the hell they want and use "ends justifies the means" or "greater good" as a justification. Nothing says you can't do that.

"Honor and Justice" tends to put a damper on "I burned that orphanage for the greater good!"

You're reaching, EE.

THAC0
2008-11-01, 09:06 PM
Low level 4e clerics actually don't know the basic tenets of their own faith, generally speaking. Since in most common builds int ends up being a dump stat, and knowledge: religion keys off of int, a 1st level cleric with 8 int only has a +4 modifier for religion checks. ;)

Aquillion
2008-11-01, 11:07 PM
Low level 4e clerics actually don't know the basic tenets of their own faith, generally speaking. Since in most common builds int ends up being a dump stat, and knowledge: religion keys off of int, a 1st level cleric with 8 int only has a +4 modifier for religion checks. ;)
That would be awesome if a DM enforced it.

DM: "All right, a begger comes up to you, Jozen, asking for cash..."

Jozen: "Oh, of course I give him..."

DM: "Not so fast. Make a Knowledge: Religion roll."

Jozen: "What? Well... 6? What's this all about?"

DM: "Your religion, to the best of your recollection, requires that beggars be killed on sight."

Jozen: :smalleek:

EvilElitest
2008-11-01, 11:23 PM
"Honor and Justice" tends to put a damper on "I burned that orphanage for the greater good!"

You're reaching, EE.

Not really. Take Japan's understanding of justice. The idea is serving you lord, loyalty, bravery and obedience, you know honor. the Roman idea of justice is about serving the empire. I mean, if you had to destroy and orphanage in order to weed out the spies within, that is greater good.
from
EE
edit
I though Pelor did kill beggers

Knaight
2008-11-01, 11:33 PM
Thats protecting the weak alright. That fails justice and honor, fails protecting the weak, and passes rooting out evil. In accordance with less than half of the deities doctrines probably means reconsidering. That and real world religions usually have some room for interpretation, so why shouldn't in game religions? Also were you Psionx on the Wotc Boards? Because you really remind me of him and his absurd attacks.

THAC0
2008-11-02, 01:18 AM
That would be awesome if a DM enforced it.

DM: "All right, a begger comes up to you, Jozen, asking for cash...

Jozen: "Oh, of course I give him..."

DM: "Not so fast. Make a Knowledge: Religion roll."

Jozen: "What? Well... 6? What's this all about?"

DM: "Your religion, to the best of your recollection, requires that beggars be killed on sight.

Jozen: :smalleek:

We totally do it in our campaign. We got a huge kick out of having my mage constantly correct the cleric about his religion. :smallbiggrin:

MartinHarper
2008-11-02, 05:42 AM
Low level 4e clerics actually don't know the basic tenets of their own faith, generally speaking.

Well, they probably should get a hefty ad-hoc bonus for religion checks related to their own god. However, most clerics know surprisingly little about the tenets of other gods, despite their training.
Arguably, this is realistic.

FoE
2008-11-02, 05:58 AM
4e explicitly places the regulation of worshipers in the hands of the mortal Church, not the gods. You can use that or you can not, but personally, I like it the way it is.

Sssssssomewhat. Angels are there for a reason; if you've really gotten out of line, an angel can come and give you a warning/curb stomp you for being a heretic.


Yeah, under the name of Bane. Heironyous is MIA (probably eaten by Bahamut in another blue-on-blue derailment). :smallamused:

Probably because no one could spell his friggin' name properly.

By the way, it's "Heironeous." :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2008-11-02, 06:14 AM
By the way, it's "Heironeous." :smalltongue:

No wonder they made him lawful, did you see the painting he did of hell?

DemonSlayer
2008-11-02, 06:22 AM
I don't know how 4e works, but if a 3.5 cleric in my campaign was acting like that, there'd be consequences;

- To start off with, he'd get a warning from his church superiors.
- If that doesn't work, he'd be visited by a lantern archon of his deity when he's praying for spells, telling him to shape up.
- If that doesn't work his god (who now feels that this cleric is no longer serving his purposes) simply stops giving him spells. After all, divine spells are requested, and the deity only hands them out if he feels it's in his best interest. He gets them back when he atones (and I don't mean the spell atonement!).
- If he still doesn't shape up, well, then he might get a visit from a planetar/solar (depending on his level, but it should be an overwhelming encounter, and he should do it alone).

I know it's not in the rules, but hey, you're the DM, you make the rules.

hamishspence
2008-11-02, 06:37 AM
Since Fiendish Codex 2 came out, there has been a way to make atonement mean much, much more than just the spell- the Corruption Rating system from FC2.

It might, however, be a little brutal- give up everything you yourself have personally gained from the evil act (if it is, say, theft, for example) and apologize to the people hurt, and undo the damage (ressurrect people, give money back) and carry out some kind of Good act assigned by clerics. And the atonement spell, if evil act was serious enough.

DemonSlayer
2008-11-02, 06:47 AM
Since Fiendish Codex 2 came out, there has been a way to make atonement mean much, much more than just the spell- the Corruption Rating system from FC2.

It might, however, be a little brutal- give up everything you yourself have personally gained from the evil act (if it is, say, theft, for example) and apologize to the people hurt, and undo the damage (ressurrect people, give money back) and carry out some kind of Good act assigned by clerics. And the atonement spell, if evil act was serious enough.

Nah, that sounds just about brutal enough :smallamused:.

hamishspence
2008-11-02, 06:59 AM
which is why I like Fiendish Codex 2 and consider it Book 3 in the Alignment trilogy (Vile Darkness, Exalted Deeds, Fiendish Codex 2) and see it as fixing some of the errors in the first two.

It also covers Law, though not in much detail, with a list of typical Lawful acts.

If you enforce both the law side and the evil side (be lawful OR do enough lawful acts, and evil acts, you're going down unless you atone) it is a pretty fair discourager of evil acts, or starter of atonement quests.

Point to remember, fail to atone, but die repentant and trying, you get a second chance as a Hellbred. Sadly, hellbred have to do some serious major act of great Good, to get their "Get Out of Hell Free" card :smallbiggrin:

EvilElitest
2008-11-02, 08:11 AM
Thats protecting the weak alright. That fails justice and honor, fails protecting the weak, and passes rooting out evil. In accordance with less than half of the deities doctrines probably means reconsidering. That and real world religions usually have some room for interpretation, so why shouldn't in game religions? Also were you Psionx on the Wotc Boards? Because you really remind me of him and his absurd attacks.

1) not at all. Lets say that an evil band of demons are being sacerficed and the orphans are on the verge of being sacerficed. You could try to kill the cultist, but if you take too long, the powerful demon could be summoned. Or you could light the entire building on fire, possibly killing the kids or
2) Again, that obviously isn't the intent. If they didn't have the aligniment system at all, like nothing, then that could have merit. But they have absolute morality in the game. As the game stands, paladins and clerics are expected to be kept in check by their gods, but for that to work they need more clear standards. If the game wants that sort of "other interpretation by design" then they certainly chose the worst way of explaining it, Ebberon and Raven loft (hell FR) do much better jobs. The way they expect the system to work shows the fact that the gods are essentially meaningless in their existence, because they are so generic. Real world faiths have that issue, but their faiths are extremely well defined, so it isn't the same situation.
3)No i'm not, never heard of him
4) The attacks pale compared to the absurdities of the defense


Oh hamispace, i agree on Fiendish Codex II
from
EE

hamishspence
2008-11-02, 08:42 AM
EE, you have argued that Killing is Evil, and Neutral at best when killing is intented to save lives of others.

While I would say BoED puts the latter as Good, not Neutral, here's my corresponding argument.

There is one sole justification for retaliatory violence- that is- violence where you personally are not threatened, and that is to save the lives of others.

Even when this is the motivation, the violence must have just cause.

If the threat is immediate- a man with a gun to head of an innocent- killing is justified.

If threat is not immediate- a man handcuffed in jail awaiting trial for murder, the possibility that he will be acquitted, and the possibility that he will continue to kill, does not justify killing him, not even for an Exalted CG character.

Execution, to prevent him from killing his guards, or fellow prisoners, or escaping and killing others, is justified- but for this reason and no other.

Which is why killing Always Evil, powerful, creatures like dragons is justified- even sleeping in its cave it is a permanent immediate threat to everyone around- a dragon has the psychology of a kick-killer and when it wakes Will attack innocents- to gather for its hoard, and for food.

Note magically or diplomatically reformed dragons (or, for that matter, fiends if DM has a reformed one) are exception to this rule.

For a sample example- try batman movie. Imagine yourself watching unnoticed in the shadows. Killing Napier while he has a gun to young Bruce Wayne's head and is speaking the words is morally good- there is a clear intent to kill, broken only by the yells of "Let's go!"

Had he shot all three, and pocketed gun, killing him (or sneaking into his home and killing him) would not be morally good, it would be retaliation.