PDA

View Full Version : Dwarven City



Alysar
2008-11-01, 12:39 AM
I'm trying to put together a Dwarven City setting. I've been searching online and there seems to be precious little on the subject. I've found a bunch on dwarven society, culture and family life, but I'm trying to figure out how a city built inside and underneath a mountain would actually be laid out.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-01, 12:50 AM
3-D. Remember, Dwarfs are logical, so the entire thing is going to be pre-planned. Figure stability will be very important, with the living quarters especially well-supported.

Magnor Criol
2008-11-01, 12:56 AM
If you can get your mitts on a copy of either the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook or Races of Stone, you'll find some helpful info there.

There's a dwarven fortress mapped out at the end of the SBG, though I think it may only be one level, and Races of Stone has a sizable chapter dedicated to dwarves, including a section on dwarven cities, I think.

Also, check out the WotC Map-A-Week archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/mw). Free maps to download, and more than a few mountain fortresses in there. Could give you some good ideas.

chronoplasm
2008-11-01, 01:00 AM
OK, so dwarves like booze, right?
First off, they are going to need distilleries. Lots of them. Go on google and look up 'industrial distillation towers', because dwarves really need that much alchohol. These are going to have to be far away from the main city, and spread far apart.
Second, what are they going to ferment to make the alchohol? What kind of vegetation grows underneath a mountain? Fungus perhaps? Perhaps giant roots from the colossal trees growing above? Perhaps the dwarves actually have farms growing down from the ceilings?

The dwarves are going to need a mighty forge. The smokestacks should lead out from the surface because the dwarves aren't going to want to breath all that smoke. There will have to be huge armories and other storage areas to put all the things the dwarves produce.

There needs to be a source of water, like an underwater river. The dwarves can probably have fishermen down there catching blind cave salamanders and whatnot.

Alysar
2008-11-01, 01:01 AM
Yeah, I figured on multiple levels. But beyond that, what?

Here's the thing. I started playing in an IRC game a couple years ago. The game was part of this big organization, several games with different players and DMs being played simultaneously in one world setting, mostly in completely different cities that didn't know about each other. Part of the evolution of the game was that the cities would start communicating again hundreds of years after a cataclysm wiped out most civilization, leaving only a few isolated pockets (the aforementioned cities).

Anyway, after about a year or so of playing in this game, the game managers sent out a call for people to volunteer to DM. I had always wanted to learn to DM, and they said there would be training, so I gave it a shot. Thing is, they eventually want a Dwarf city set up, and my players are going to discover it.

WinterSolstice
2008-11-01, 01:16 AM
OK, so dwarves like booze, right?

Second, what are they going to ferment to make the alchohol? What kind of vegetation grows underneath a mountain? Fungus perhaps? Perhaps giant roots from the colossal trees growing above? Perhaps the dwarves actually have farms growing down from the ceilings?

An interesting thought just crossed my mind. What about a subterranean species of bees that Dwarves tended in huge hives? The honey produced could then be fermented into a special mead. The fluff implications for this could be huge. The Mead produced by the "dirt-bee" honey could be incredibly strong and thus the source of the "World-Renowned-Dwarven-Brewmastery". The Dwarves would work feverishly to keep this source a secret from the "Abovergrounders". If you wanted to get really intricate with it, the bee's could have a very unpleasant, painful, toxic sting associated with them. Dwarves would be exposed to the sting from birth, thereby heightening both there tolerance to pain and their immune system (thus explaining the Dwarven resistance to poison?) eh, just a thought.


The dwarves are going to need a mighty forge. The smokestacks should lead out from the surface because the dwarves aren't going to want to breath all that smoke. There will have to be huge armories and other storage areas to put all the things the dwarves produce.

Perhaps the forge could be located at the farthest recesses that the citadel stretches underground? The magma flows would provide extremely high temperatures, coupled perhaps with special minerals contained in the magma which, when tempered, create the (again) "World-Renowned-Dwarven-Steel" mythos


There needs to be a source of water, like an underwater river. The dwarves can probably have fishermen down there catching blind cave salamanders and whatnot.
I like this idea.:smalltongue: We always see dwarves eating huge hocks of meat...it's just never explained what exactly that animal was while alive. It'd be a nice prank to pull on PC's. "Those huge drumsticks you just ate were from a giant, blind Dire-Salamander" yumm.

As for the water situation, the dwarves could opt for using meltwater from the snow on the surface of the mountain (provided of course the mountain is not located in a desert or similar climate)

Gralamin
2008-11-01, 01:17 AM
I'm trying to put together a Dwarven City setting. I've been searching online and there seems to be precious little on the subject. I've found a bunch on dwarven society, culture and family life, but I'm trying to figure out how a city built inside and underneath a mountain would actually be laid out.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Google Dwarf Fortress.

Or, if your lazier, find someone with a good Fortress lay out from the game and steal it.

Qanael
2008-11-01, 01:17 AM
Play some Dwarf Fortress. That'll give you an idea. :smalltongue:

On a more serious note, think structured. Dwarves aren't very whimsical. Everything should have intent and purpose, and the structure should be coherent and logical. Plan an easily defensible entrance, ventilation, access to water (be it underground or rerouted from above ground water sources), things like that. Utterly gigantic halls like Moria aren't very practical; amazing works of architecture, sure, but not very purposeful, and hard to defend and maintain.

As other posters have stated, include the typical dwarven stuff. Great forges and smelters, breweries, perhaps fungus farms.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-01, 01:19 AM
They eat drider meat.

Alysar
2008-11-01, 01:19 AM
OK, so dwarves like booze, right?
First off, they are going to need distilleries. Lots of them. Go on google and look up 'industrial distillation towers', because dwarves really need that much alchohol.

That could get a little interesting. One of my players is running a monk, and he has his heart set on becoming a Drunken Master.

Not sure how to play that out with the Dwarves, yet.

Alysar
2008-11-01, 01:21 AM
Google Dwarf Fortress.

Or, if your lazier, find someone with a good Fortress lay out from the game and steal it.

Actually, I downloaded it a couple months ago. Couldn't really get into it, since I wasn't really sure what was happening onscreen.

I'll check it out some more.

Alysar
2008-11-01, 01:27 AM
I did try the week free trial of WoW a while back, and I remember what Ironforge looked like. Should I go for that kind of style?

chronoplasm
2008-11-01, 02:48 AM
I did try the week free trial of WoW a while back, and I remember what Ironforge looked like. Should I go for that kind of style?

Nah. Do something more original.
I like the suggestion with the bees that one guy proposed earlier. What if the dwarves build their city like a honey-comb?

Ganurath
2008-11-01, 02:48 AM
Food: Page 76 of the DMG says Phosphorescent Fungus is edible, so it's plausible that dwarves might farm it. Hunting is also a likely option, although the pickings are slim: Most cave dwelling creatures are either poisonous (vermin) or diseased (rats.) Fish in underground rivers, perhaps?

Water: Since the food supplies are likely heavily dependant upon water, an underground river is an ideal option. Given the dwarven interest in structure and long-term plans, it's likely the river's route was identified with divination when the fortress was first made, and a point was found where the river could be made to flow along a specific course, with several dams and tributaries built in to control the flow. Even if the stockpile gained from the tributaries is insufficient in times of need, clerics of Moradin can cast Create Water even at the most basic level of training.

Defenses: There are two potential access points to the city area: The surface entrance, which is guarded like a hellish hybrid of Tucker's Kobolds and Boatmurdered, or the mines, which could potentially connect to the Underdark. The surface entrance is plainly visible from all around, with an iron gate that lifts upward on the outside that is operated by a gatehouse that can only be accessed from the barracks beneath the entrance. Immediately inside the entrance is a hallway with murderholes in the ceiling and grates in the floor, because the river flows toward the entrance and there's a barred center in the barracks that allow the city's waste to fall through. Since it's a military job, this ensures nobody mocks the chamberpot collectors.

The city's entrances to the mines are similiar guarded by a dual gate system, but in this case the area between is open ceiling and the assault comes from below: This is how the dwarven fortress vents the forges. The open ceiling continues upward to an opening made in the mountain. There are mine entrances are each of the corners furthest from the surface entrance.

Layout: The overall city should be shaped like a trapezoid, branching outward at a mild angle from the surface entrance, which after a tunnel trip past the second gate is a pavillion-bridge over the river that goes to either half of the city, which is split by said river, with guardposts connected to the barracks providing the corners of the T intersection. The city slopes slightly uphill away from the surface entrance due to the dams, creating a visual effect of the city being overwhelmingly bigger than it is, thanks to phosphorescent fungus illuminating the waterways to give the city a gentle violet glow.

...Now I need to layout this city. Thanks a lot!

bosssmiley
2008-11-01, 07:37 AM
Google Dwarf Fortress.

I'm honestly amazed that this took 7 posts to come up. :smallwink:

There's always the map of Fangthane (http://www.fightingfantasy.org.uk/BookofAtlan/AS-Fangthane.html) from the "Titan: the Fighting Fantasy World" book. It is replete with Dwarven win.

(I'm currently retro-squeeing over the page (http://www.fightingfantasy.org.uk/BookofAtlan/List-MapsandCharts.html) it's hosted on)

GolemsVoice
2008-11-01, 08:14 AM
There should be some examples of dwarven cities around the internet, just ry to look for games which feature dwarves. Two things srping to mind: Ironforge, or, even better, Blackrock Depths. Both cities are really beautiful, and you should get some pictures of them on the net, but, as someone already said, you might want to just use them as a general inspiration, as they are not very original.

Another picture I found is the dwarfen fortress from the Heroes of Might and Magic games.

http://www.the-genies-lamp.com/images/h5_images/expansion/fortress_town_entrance.jpg

Thane of Fife
2008-11-01, 08:24 AM
Actually, I downloaded it a couple months ago. Couldn't really get into it, since I wasn't really sure what was happening onscreen.

I'll check it out some more.


Try looking at some of the Tileset Mods (http://dffd.wimbli.com/category.php?id=16), then. I find that they make the game far easier to play (YMMV).

Inyssius Tor
2008-11-01, 03:35 PM
GOLEMS' VOICE FOR GOD'S SAKE SPOILER THAT GIGANTIC THING.


(I'm currently retro-squeeing over the page (http://www.fightingfantasy.org.uk/BookofAtlan/List-MapsandCharts.html) it's hosted on)

Oh, wow. But, um, dark blue on black background? Not cool, man. Not cool.

Qanael
2008-11-01, 03:44 PM
-Epic fortress-

...

*starts up Dwarf Fortress*

Doomsy
2008-11-01, 04:39 PM
Dwarf fortress might not be the best idea to use as a basis for city planning, as your dwarven fortress will inevitably descend into madness, murder, and fire.

But I'm so using Boatmurdered as the name of a dwarven town someday.

The main problem with dwarf city designs, in my opinion, is that they tend to be combined with the idea that the dwarves are mining the same rock they are building houses in.

This is a spectacularly bad idea. You can get rich lodes you can never access without wrecking your city, etc. That is not even including things like coal gas or the fantasy crap mining in the earth tends to unearth. More likely a dwarf city would have substantial outside assets as well - terraced farms, herding facilities, etc, built into the mountain itself. Actual city building would probably be done in either tapped out mines that were safe to occupy, with the 'urban sprawl' slowly catching up and urbanizing the abandoned tunnels. This way you can build stably and mine out the resources - just not simultaneously. Richest people and important people live either higher on the mountain with the best view and access to fresh air, or in the most settled and comfortable tunnels, with the poor forming a literal buffer zone, probably near the active mines - 'frontier neighborhoods.' Small trade hamlets outside the entrance for dealing with travelers and caravans, stabling animals, all that, are also probably sensible.

You'd have the merchants and the nobility/judiciary not sharing the same neighborhood, since the merchants would likely be nearer the trading zones and unlikely to be able to simply buy houses in the noble area due to clans occupying the best ones as a point of pride. The big mining tunnels could operate as the main 'avenues', once smoothed and widened with supports, but twisting and turning as the miners followed the ore. More organized side-tunnels and streets branching off from it.

I actually once designed an underground city for a future campaign. The same ideas might work here. I'll have to find it and see if I can post it online somewhere.

Qanael
2008-11-01, 06:10 PM
-snip-

I do it the other way round when I'm starting my fortress; mine the city first, taking advantage of the refuse rock to build stuff, and store whatever ores I manage to find, then do gown a few levels and do actual exploratory mining. Of course, if I find a vein of something very valuable I'll mine it out, then fill it in with refuse stone to keep the city's structure. That way the urban levels and mining levels are almost entirely separate, and you avoid accidentally boring a hole through your nobles' quarters while following a vein of shiny ore. :smalleek:

Alysar
2008-11-01, 06:19 PM
I figured that the city would be inside the actual mountain and possibly extend just underneath it, while the mines would be deeper underground and extend outward, with the tapped out mines being converted into new living space, possibly extending up into neighboring mountains.

Mando Knight
2008-11-01, 07:18 PM
GOLEMS' VOICE FOR GOD'S SAKE SPOILER THAT GIGANTIC THING.

I agree. It should be spoilered ASAP... people hate having their screens stretched like that.

Think of a Dwarven Mountain-City as a massive dungeon-castle complex. Build a castle, put it underground, and extend the curtain walls to the cave roof. Replace thatched roofs with finely-crafted metal and stone.

Make trade an important part of the Dwarven economy. Without wood from the Elves, they couldn't make some of the floors and doors of their underground fortress. Without grain from Halfling and Human lands, they couldn't brew their world-renowned ales, aged in Dwarf-crafted barrels that use wood from Elvish forests. In return, the Dwarven civilization would be the single largest source of mined materials and finished goods.

tahu88810
2008-11-01, 07:34 PM
I present to you:
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/
DWARF FORTRESS
Create your own Dwarven fortress.
Once you get the hang of it, that should give you some ideas.

Kizara
2008-11-01, 08:25 PM
You may find this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94674) useful.

Note: Its not dwarf fortress.

shadow_archmagi
2008-11-01, 09:44 PM
Make trade an important part of the Dwarven economy. Without wood from the Elves, they couldn't make some of the floors and doors of their underground fortress. Without grain from Halfling and Human lands, they couldn't brew their world-renowned ales, aged in Dwarf-crafted barrels that use wood from Elvish forests.

What is wrong with stone floors and metal barrels and subterranean crops?

Meat Shield
2008-11-01, 09:46 PM
I do not have personal experience with it but you may want to try Mayfair Games' Dwarves (http://www.amazon.com/Dwarves-Kingdom-Adventure-Mayfair-Games/dp/0912771038/ref=sr_1_1/103-6793651-7934264?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181346147&sr=1-1) (or another link here (http://www.nobleknight.com/productdetailsearch.asp_Q_ProductID_E_8390_A_Inven toryID_E_2147594324)).

I had similar questions looking for a dwarven city and the Kenzerco boards pointed me to that. Never picked it up, but it was well recommended. It is out of print, so good luck finding it but the second link looks like it might work for picking it up. Apparently its got a three level city plus all kinds of fluffy goodness for a dwarf city.

Ganurath
2008-11-01, 09:46 PM
What is wrong with stone floors and metal barrels and subterranean crops?More importantly, why would they allow themselves to depend upon interaction with elves? :smallyuk:

Yakk
2008-11-01, 11:30 PM
A defencible and viable city needs a few things.

Food -- A secure supply of food and storage.
Water -- In particular, potable water.
Walls -- Or, a way to keep enemies out of your city. This cannot merely be passive -- walls not only keep people out, but provide a means to attack those who do attempt to get in from advantage. Without the second, the walls are weak.
Trade -- Or, goods to sell that other people want, goods to buy that are not crucial but useful, and a relatively secure and efficient form of transportation.
Quality of Life -- This is in comparison to the alternatives. In a sufficiently realistic situation, the alternative is often starvation and oppression.

In the real world, #1 is dealt with via granaries, and setting cities in the middle of fertile lands. #2 is dealt with via placing cities on rivers, often at river mouths. #3 is dealt with by having walls, a standing military force, and the ability to call up extra troops in time of war. Often the city is part of a larger political unit that provides a buffer zone in which hostile military forces are opposed. Note that walls are effective in the real world in times when the walls where built. #4 is dealt with by most cities being built near the ocean/seas -- water trade is very useful -- and then on major rivers. Cities built off of major waterways and oceans and seas have trade issues, because overland trade is expensive in terms of calories per tonne mile. And #5 was dealt with by non-cities really sucking. :-)

What is the ecology of dwarves in your game? I'm partial to making dwarves animated golems[1] or something, which could change the situation.

Having Dwarves farm the roots of plants that grow out of mountains would be interesting. Another idea would be to farm plants that grow by sticking their "roots" into magma -- fantasy-esque, but it works thermodynamically.

Or just magic mushrooms, etc.

Possibly you can have Dwarves grow food on the land, in well fortified interior valleys as well.

Note that a 3 dimensional city can suck -- it takes LOTS of energy to move stuff up and down. How do the dwarves deal with that logistical problem? Magic? Pullies, moving as much stuff down as up?

Flooding was a huge problem for mines in the real world. It was the development of the improved steam engine, lift-based "pumps", and gearing that allowed for deeper mines to become practical.

Ganurath
2008-11-02, 01:01 AM
Yakk: With that in mind, let's review my original suggestion. After checking the Monster Manual, I took note of the fact that the traditional dwarven race has an Environment of Temperate Mountain, whereas Deep Dwarves favor Underground. The obvious implication is that dwarves do indeed live on the surface, they just favor secure positions. What sort of fortress one has depends on the environment available: Mountain Base, Cliffside, or Mountain Lake.

Food: Mountain Base would probably resemble a stone version of the old Moat and Bailey, with a large half-circle of a wall surrounding and securing the flatlands, with the centerpoint of the circular pattern being the city-fortress itself. The surrounding land within the wall would be farmland, a mix of wheat and bailey. Another source of food would be hunters, dwarven rangers who would scour the mountains within the circle for local rams (which double as a source of cloth.)

Cliffside is a bit more complicated. The dwarves in such a setting would be much more dependant upon hunting, or may even depend upon midlevel clerics casting Create Food and Water. This would be one of the situations where dwarves may resort to the fungal foodstuffs in my original idea.

Mountain Lake has the option of fish in moderation, as well as coastal farming. Of course, a mountain lake is functionally identical to a coastal mountain in this particular instance, but may differ at certain points. In any case, food isn't a major issue here.

Water: An underground lake or river could be tapped easily enough by mining down at a diagonal toward the mountain, especially with magical augurs pointing you in the right direction. This would likely be the method of choice for the Mountain Base city-fortress.

Cliffside could probably augur up an underground river like Mountain Base, but if they depend upon summoned foodstuffs from clerics of Moradin they'll probably just use this for water too.

Mountain Lake... Boy, where would a city situated next to a lake acquire a source of freshwater... In all seriousness, this would only be an issue for a coastal mountain town if it's a saltwater coast. If such is the case, underground lakes are probably abundant and easily tapped.

Walls: As previously stated, the Mountain Base city would have a flatland perimeter. To elaborate, there would be guard towers at regular intervals along that perimeter, which can only be access through underground tunnels that go beneath the farmsoil to the main city... Or through a folding metal ladder that can be lowered from within. If invaders overrun the walls, there's a second set of walls that set the border of the city with much more tightly packed towers, these towers having open tops to get the most out of the repeating ballista mounted on a pivoting turret. The city's entrance involved two gates that open outward, away from the city... along the same gears that close the trapdoor between them that drops into the barracks forgefires. The barracks has a single-shot ballista, fixed location, trained to fire upon the support beam holding up the meeting point of the outer tower tunnels should any of them fall.

The Cliffside city has a more fanatic and overall rough tone at this point, so we'll just make it so that the highly vertical city has windows for every home and heavy crossbows for every homeowner. The only entrance to the city at the bottom is also the entrance to the barracks, using the double gate system and forgefire pit trap of the Mountain Base city. Before anyone asks, the smoke from the forge normally vents from the hollowed (yet sufficiently thick) pivot piston things in the outer gates, and the forgefires are fueled by wood from the local taiga.

Mountain Lake can use aqueducts and canals to guide the water into positions where it can be used to flood out invaders. A nice touch would be guard towers on the lake/coast itself, complete with repeater ballistas and enough crossbow bolts to drop a Great Red Wyrm.

Trade: Mountain Base can export crafted metal and stone items in exchange formeat when the rams are scarce, or wood when the taiga needs time to regrow. Being near the bottom of the mountain, setting up roadside trade routes with nearby cities isn't much of an issue.

Cliffside city, on the other hand, does have a problem with trade. They're heavy on the mining, perhaps with some leathers from hunting, but they need that for themselves. Combine with the fact that they have difficulty reaching outsiders, and the Cliffside city is looking less like the dwarves of D&D and more like Guild Wars' Stone Summit.

Mountain Lake is a bit more isolated, but if it can find a secure route it would probably set up trade to import textiles in exchange for iron and stone works. In such a situation, a few outposts along the route closer to their end would probably be set up to keep watch. If the city is coastal though, expect some thriving docks as wood is imported like there's no tomorrow.

Quality of Life: A day in the life at Mountain Base city involves an early morning, a long days hard work, and probably an hour's training at the barracks for the militia. At some point in the day, a rather rank cart will roll by to collect the contents of the house chamberpot, which would later be used as fertilizer for the farms. At the end of the day, though, there's fine beer to be enjoyed and good company at the tavern. Life is rough, but not so rough that you won't fall asleep with a smile on your face.

Cliffside city, on the other hand, has a rough life. At every meal, the clerics demand that the people contribute to the community, warning of the constant dangers in the upper peaks. Everyone is cranky because leather is uncomfortable, and that purple fungus has a nasty taste to it. Life is hard, and anyone who tries to sing a tavern song will probably get smacked upside the head for not working hard enough.

Mountain Lake city is pretty similiar to Mountain Base city as far as quality of life, although with the aqueduct system setup there's no need for the fertilizer cart. If it's a coastal city that's also a heavy trade port, than you can expect a bustling market and a lot of foreigners, possibly even a gnomic ghetto. In any case, expect the port town varient to be a centerpoint of culture.

Epinephrine
2008-11-02, 07:39 AM
Note that a 3 dimensional city can suck -- it takes LOTS of energy to move stuff up and down. How do the dwarves deal with that logistical problem? Magic? Pullies, moving as much stuff down as up?

That underground river idea could provide a lot of power. Water mills, trip hammers for forging, driving elevators... Water wheels for power date back ~2000 years in some cultures, and dwarves are natural engineers. If they guided a surface river's flow to an underwater river's course they could get a lot of energy out of the water by multiple water wheels at different levels to extract as much energy as possible from gravity.

Subotei
2008-11-02, 10:21 AM
Some points which occurred to me

Food - I imagine Dwarves having terraced their accessible mountain-sides to make the most of farmland. Also sheep/goat herding would be a possibility - they tend to look after themselves most of the time, so you've got loads of time for more Dwarven trades.

Water - Easiest source in mountains is the stuff that falls from the sky - rain or snow, which is usually plentiful and clean. All you need do is direct it into suitable holding places - dam a valley or make underground cisterns.

Walls - Internal defences would be a must in an underground city. Pinch points, areas which could be deliberately flooded, protections against magical attacks and barrier-passing spells would be elaborate in the vital areas.

Trade - Additional items beyoned traditional iron, stone etc:
Wool/mutton - from the aforementioned sheep.
Coal and coke - coal tar fractions made from distilling coal, if the setting allows.
Water rights - damming a valley would control the water downstream. Or sparkling mineral water from the drawn from the rocks could be a speciality. Heat - piped hot water to surrounding areas?
Tourism - famous Dwarven magma-heated spa baths anyone?
Tarrifs - from controlling routes through mountain passes.
Distilled spirits would be a good item for trade - keeps longer than beer and is easier to transport as its lower volume.

Dervag
2008-11-02, 10:36 AM
OK, so dwarves like booze, right?
First off, they are going to need distilleries. Lots of them. Go on google and look up 'industrial distillation towers', because dwarves really need that much alchohol. These are going to have to be far away from the main city, and spread far apart.
Second, what are they going to ferment to make the alchohol? What kind of vegetation grows underneath a mountain? Fungus perhaps? Perhaps giant roots from the colossal trees growing above? Perhaps the dwarves actually have farms growing down from the ceilings?My theory is that dwarven alcoholic beverages are based on petroleum. To any species without their innate poison resistance, the stuff is practically undrinkable because it's got a trace component of diesel fuel.

The beer and whiskey and such is just what they serve to outsiders who can't handle their real liquor.


I figured that the city would be inside the actual mountain and possibly extend just underneath it, while the mines would be deeper underground and extend outward, with the tapped out mines being converted into new living space, possibly extending up into neighboring mountains.So the dwarves live in giant piles of mine tailings? That would explain their poison resistance too...

Doomsy
2008-11-02, 06:16 PM
To be honest, depending on the dwarven societal model you are using - defensive thought re: invasion from outside the mountain is generally pretty much a very small percentage chance.

If the city is built inside the mountain there are no medieval siege weapons and relatively few spells that are going to really help anyone get into the city. More importantly, even if you do get into the city, you are dealing with close quarters, brutal melee combat in a 3-d space the dwarven defenders are familiar with and with advanced warning have probably rigged to hell.

We're not talking 3:1 losses on storming the place, we're into 10:1 fairly quickly. Not to mention your own losses will form corpse-barricades, piling up in the assault corridors to impede your own progress. You go to pull them out of the way and the nice bunch of bearded shorties down the corridor put a crossbow bolt into your face. Given how the usual fantasy 'evil' races are I really can't imagine orcs, goblins, or even hobgoblins having the discipline and sheer stamina it would take to hit a fortress like that successfully.

If they have their own internal non-sunlight needing food production and underground water access? No siege in the world would work. They could just close themselves off and live happily isolationist, Vault-Dweller dwarves to the max. Which is...not a bad idea for an adventure hook, if you think about it.

Instead of manning surface fortifications you can probably expect them to sap your camps or use narrow rat-runs to the surface to launch vicious night raids on the enemy position - the buggers can see in the dark and are tough. I'd say a dwarven military might actually include a good number of military-trained rogues and rangers just for harassment purposes. Even crossing their surface territory would probably let them pick off significant numbers of troops - and god help a hostile army that gets trapped by a sudden winter storm in dwarf territory.

Far more likely is internal conflict and clannish infighting. The dwarves might be vaguely based on honorable clannish ideals but the fact is you'd be dealing with a very insular society that is very attuned to its own politics and largely uninterested or just plain disdainful of the world outside. They would rarely even be outside the mountain for the most part. I'd assume the culture would be more in line with the Chinese or the Japanese than Scottish, but I think that could make some players heads explode. However you cut it, an actual civil war inside a dwarf city is far more terrifying than in most others - the long life span, food stores, and hardy nature of the combatants plus the 3-d set up, and the fact they can keep doing sapping and undermining tricks could lead to brutal house to house fighting that spans on for quite some time. And more importantly - this is for keeps. Any infighting that goes on would be savage and probably no quarter. There is no escaping a city with that few exits unless you either concentrate your forces and gangrush an exit, or are flat out exiled. I'd say most dwarves would be more concerned about internal strife than external and plan accordingly, reinforcing their clan homes into their own little fortresses/compounds with as much self sufficiency as possible.

This also would be a response to the usual fantasy invasions from below - breaking into Chambers That Should Not Be Unsealed And Yet Never Have Warning Signs, Ancient Slumbering Evils, Ye Blasphemous Horrors, and the more moderate pissed off Underdark races. Making solid defensive nodes in a 3-D environment that can be undermined or bypassed is probably not the best bet. The best reaction would be mobile defense forces with a good communication network and roving fast-reaction squads, along with training the citizenry in basic combat. All of this is possible to do in fantasy, though the idea of dwarves yelling into or banging on pipes to report movements may or may not make your players twitch.
As for the 3-D space, well. Ramps and counter-weight elevators, stairs, etc. I'd imagine the main boulevards would be gradual ramps so you could just yank cargo off piecemeal and distribute it through the rest of the network.
Also, this would explain dwarf craftsmanship: It is easier to just build the damn couch in your own home than to manuever the thing through the tunnels.

Prometheus
2008-11-02, 07:07 PM
I wrote about what kind of culture Earth-aligned variants of races might have, Dwarves would qualify:
Earth:
-If these guys don't live underground, no one does. Stone, Brick, Cement, and mudbrick, may be used to supplement this feature. Many homes do not have a floor, or bring in dirt or sand to soften the feel and absorb spills.
-Pottery, stone tools, and stone furniture are very commonplace, and most tables and market places include bowls recessed into the table (like in Pompeii (http://freestockphotos.com/POMPEII/PompeiiShop1.jpg)).
-Extended tunnel networks, burial mounds, pyramids/ziggarauts, and geoglyphs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoglyph) are common architectural features as well.
-Food can be very salty or it can be very bland to those who are unaccustomed. In addition, many foods are hard and brittle as many people of Earth cultures see the resistance as a sure sign that the food is not putrid.
-Throwing or lifting stones of a standard size, shape, and weight is typically seen as the fairest show of stength. This leads to many similar themed sports, such as the shotput, the discus, weightlifting, or halfling rock-skipping champions.
-Earth cultures make good use of gravitational potential energy. For example, if there is a steep hill or cliff, it is usually accompanied by several small, but heavy stones and a pulley system. Whenever something very large, heavy, or important needs to pass up, the small stones are used to propel it up or lighten the load. Whenever something heavy or unimportant passes down, it is used to bring several small stones back up. Since each of the small stones can be carried without support, there is always a surplus of stones at the top to be mobilized when they are needed. In Earth cultures that live out of cliffsides, stones in high places can often times take on a value of their own, almost like a currency.
-Extremely sophisticated or magically enhanced earth cultures might integrate this potential energy system into a machinery, such as a powerful substitute for a blacksmith's hammer or a means of keeping a mill constantly running without the presence of wind or a river.
-Boulder, spike pits, and heavy blade traps are common defenses in addition to the highest walls and the deepest ditches imaginable.

Hallways should be shorter and wider than would be expected, and humans would find it annoying or encumbering. All doors should be heavy too. I say think herding is the best option for food. If its not goats, cows or pigs, it could be lizards, flightless birds, bears, large rodents, large fish (in pools), elephants, rhinos, crocodiles, turtles, Chuul, Owlbears, Ropers, Dragon Turtles or Xorn.

GolemsVoice, hit edit on this post to figure out how to use a spoiler.

Dervag
2008-11-02, 10:12 PM
We're not talking 3:1 losses on storming the place, we're into 10:1 fairly quickly. Not to mention your own losses will form corpse-barricades, piling up in the assault corridors to impede your own progress. You go to pull them out of the way and the nice bunch of bearded shorties down the corridor put a crossbow bolt into your face. Given how the usual fantasy 'evil' races are I really can't imagine orcs, goblins, or even hobgoblins having the discipline and sheer stamina it would take to hit a fortress like that successfully.Yeah. Given their knack for engineering and organization, the dwarves should be just as lethal as the famous Tucker's Kobolds... only with the ability to go hand-to-hand with tough opponents layered on top of that.


Instead of manning surface fortifications you can probably expect them to sap your camps or use narrow rat-runs to the surface to launch vicious night raids on the enemy position - the buggers can see in the dark and are tough. I'd say a dwarven military might actually include a good number of military-trained rogues and rangers just for harassment purposes. Even crossing their surface territory would probably let them pick off significant numbers of troops - and god help a hostile army that gets trapped by a sudden winter storm in dwarf territory.Yes. Although they'd probably keep fortifications on the surface (with little or no aboveground access)- sooner or later they have to come out of their holes for something, and keeping a garrison on the surface helps keep them aware of what's going on up there.

However, these fortifications would be mere outworks- the real defense lines are underground.


And more importantly - this is for keeps. Any infighting that goes on would be savage and probably no quarter. There is no escaping a city with that few exits unless you either concentrate your forces and gangrush an exit, or are flat out exiled. I'd say most dwarves would be more concerned about internal strife than external and plan accordingly, reinforcing their clan homes into their own little fortresses/compounds with as much self sufficiency as possible.Although dwarves might be so afraid of the danger of a real all-out civil war that they intentionally stick to rules of conduct when fighting a clan feud because nobody wants to "go nuclear." Options like undermining the rival clan's tunnel complex so it collapses and leaves them to die of thirst and asphyxiation are so horrible that everyone will be afraid of someone trying to do it to them.

They're there, and everybody knows you can use them, but everybody knows that a clan proven willing to do that to the little dwarf children of its enemies is a menace to the rest of the community.

Doomsy
2008-11-03, 05:31 PM
Good points Derga, though for the civil war question - it really depends on their societies safeguards. The problem is that internal conflict tends to be the nastiest kind and usually one of the first to abandon the usual rules of civilized warfare. If they had ritualized combat to resolve bad differences, it could work but you still run the small risk of rogue clans. It would actually be a pretty good way to explain how some cities have 'bad reputations' that outsiders just don't understand or dwarven ruins inhabited by really nasty bits of works.

This whole thing is reminding me of Battletech Clans now though.

Ganurath
2008-11-03, 05:33 PM
Good points Derga, though for the civil war question - it really depends on their societies safeguards. The problem is that internal conflict tends to be the nastiest kind and usually one of the first to abandon the usual rules of civilized warfare. If they had ritualized combat to resolve bad differences, it could work but you still run the small risk of rogue clans. It would actually be a pretty good way to explain how some cities have 'bad reputations' that outsiders just don't understand or dwarven ruins inhabited by really nasty bits of works.

This whole thing is reminding me of Battletech Clans now though.Dwarves value tradition, craftsmanship, and racial loyalty. I find it highly unlikely that dwarves are going to break a tradition and destroy well-made city structures to kill fellow dwarves.

Doomsy
2008-11-03, 06:05 PM
Dwarves value tradition, craftsmanship, and racial loyalty. I find it highly unlikely that dwarves are going to break a tradition and destroy well-made city structures to kill fellow dwarves.

So did the Chinese. Once things start going crazy it happens fast and it happens viciously. Happy fun fantasy and pragmatic fantasy are on different ends of the sliding scale, though, so pick your point and perch on it, I say. I prefer it more realistic - crap happens, people are generally people, and power, greed, jealousy, hatred, and ambition are always the most dangerous plagues.

Prometheus
2008-11-03, 09:37 PM
A mechanic I've used in a similar scenario is that the race (in this case) Dwarves, is exceptionally obedient to it's family elders. Since Dwarves live a long time, the number of generations alive at the same time is larger and the proportion of the population of the Dwarf community made by any given family is larger. These serve as natural basis for clans, with a much more lawful than chaotic feel to them. Of course, after the oldest member dies and severs a link between brothers/sisters than they are probably inclined to be allied. Over time, or if there is already bad blood between the two new clan heads (considered bad family management) they may drift apart, however. An unscrupulous rival clan, therefore, might target the oldest of the Dwarves to create disorder (especially if it is a long-standing feud). Since the weakest of the Dwarves (the oldest) are also the most important, the focus on defense definitely makes sense not only as a military tactic but a traditional value.

Ganurath
2008-11-03, 09:39 PM
So did the Chinese. Once things start going crazy it happens fast and it happens viciously. Happy fun fantasy and pragmatic fantasy are on different ends of the sliding scale, though, so pick your point and perch on it, I say. I prefer it more realistic - crap happens, people are generally people, and power, greed, jealousy, hatred, and ambition are always the most dangerous plagues.Perhaps, but if I may raise a counterpoint: In D&D, humans and dwarves are entirely different species, with different inate psychological tendencies.

RS14
2008-11-03, 10:39 PM
If the city is built inside the mountain there are no medieval siege weapons and relatively few spells that are going to really help anyone get into the city. More importantly, even if you do get into the city, you are dealing with close quarters, brutal melee combat in a 3-d space the dwarven defenders are familiar with and with advanced warning have probably rigged to hell.

We're not talking 3:1 losses on storming the place, we're into 10:1 fairly quickly. Not to mention your own losses will form corpse-barricades, piling up in the assault corridors to impede your own progress. You go to pull them out of the way and the nice bunch of bearded shorties down the corridor put a crossbow bolt into your face. Given how the usual fantasy 'evil' races are I really can't imagine orcs, goblins, or even hobgoblins having the discipline and sheer stamina it would take to hit a fortress like that successfully.

I prefer to think that this is absolutely necessary for the Dwarves. They have great terrain, but any invaders will outnumber them so heavily that the Dwarves lose if they can't inflict 10:1 losses or more. This makes sense in several more ways. With their focus on mining and poor farming terrain, it's very difficult to feed a large population. Furthermore, a small community in which everybody knows one another is unlikely to have significant crime or internal strife. Some studies have suggested that humans can only really know about 120 individuals. Beyond that, they tend to perceive others as unlike themselves, so this is roughly the natural size for a community of humans. Most other primates have a similar figure. If this is the case for Dwarves, a small community can account for their lawful nature. Finally, in Tolkien's work, the Dwarves were a diminishing race. Having their numbers be very small keeps with their historical place.
Personally, I don't think a purely Dwarven city should exceed 400 individuals or so, and then only at relatively low altitudes suited for farming.

Subotei
2008-11-04, 06:45 PM
I prefer to think that this is absolutely necessary for the Dwarves. They have great terrain, but any invaders will outnumber them so heavily that the Dwarves lose if they can't inflict 10:1 losses or more. This makes sense in several more ways. With their focus on mining and poor farming terrain, it's very difficult to feed a large population. Furthermore, a small community in which everybody knows one another is unlikely to have significant crime or internal strife. Some studies have suggested that humans can only really know about 120 individuals. Beyond that, they tend to perceive others as unlike themselves, so this is roughly the natural size for a community of humans. Most other primates have a similar figure. If this is the case for Dwarves, a small community can account for their lawful nature. Finally, in Tolkien's work, the Dwarves were a diminishing race. Having their numbers be very small keeps with their historical place.
Personally, I don't think a purely Dwarven city should exceed 400 individuals or so, and then only at relatively low altitudes suited for farming.

I'm having trouble visualising a Dwarven city with only 400 individuals - its not really a city. I don't think some of your arguments hold true - ie New York, London etc have more than 120 humans, so we've demonstrated that humans can deal with situations where they don't know everybody and still act (more or less!) lawfully. Plus the setting doesn't necessarily depend on Tolkien's interpretation - its not Middle Earth. I can quite easily envisage a large Dwarf city - with their skills it is not really necessary to rely on subsistence farming for survival - as the thread shows there are plenty of trade opportunities.

Doomsy
2008-11-04, 07:16 PM
I'm having trouble visualising a Dwarven city with only 400 individuals - its not really a city. I don't think some of your arguments hold true - ie New York, London etc have more than 120 humans, so we've demonstrated that humans can deal with situations where they don't know everybody and still act (more or less!) lawfully. Plus the setting doesn't necessarily depend on Tolkien's interpretation - its not Middle Earth. I can quite easily envisage a large Dwarf city - with their skills it is not really necessary to rely on subsistence farming for survival - as the thread shows there are plenty of trade opportunities.

Yeah. It also doesn't account for the low mortality rate (tough little guys in heavy fortresses) and long life span of dwarves. Even at one baby every ten years the dwarves would eventually grow to pretty solid numbers - just gradually. and underground farming is possible depending on the fantasy elements.

RS14
2008-11-04, 07:20 PM
I don't think some of your arguments hold true - ie New York, London etc have more than 120 humans, so we've demonstrated that humans can deal with situations where they don't know everybody and still act (more or less!) lawfully.
These actually support my point. I'm not arguing that a large city should fall into chaos, but that it will be less lawful than a smaller community. Urban areas tend to have high crime rates. As an example, would you be more likely to key an acquaintance's car, or the car of someone you've never met?
It makes sense that a race as lawful as Dwarves might favor very small communities.

Plus the setting doesn't necessarily depend on Tolkien's interpretation - its not Middle Earth.
Agreed. Nevertheless, the standard races in particular seem influenced strongly by Tolkien.

I can quite easily envisage a large Dwarf city - with their skills it is not really necessary to rely on subsistence farming for survival - as the thread shows there are plenty of trade opportunities.
I can too. However, I think I prefer Dwarves as a small, isolated race, and will probably use them as such in my worlds.

Tengu_temp
2008-11-04, 07:24 PM
Dwarf fortress might not be the best idea to use as a basis for city planning, as your dwarven fortress will inevitably descend into madness, murder, and fire.


Actually, no. Only the first one, when you're getting accustomed to the game. And only if you don't read a lot of information on the game. Boatmurdered was so fun mostly because the majority of people playing it were very inexperienced.

serok42
2008-11-05, 07:29 AM
I did try the week free trial of WoW a while back, and I remember what Ironforge looked like. Should I go for that kind of style?

I was going to suggest this actually. I think that Ironforge would be a pretty good model of a dwarven city. I always picture them as larger though.

Maybe Google Mithral Hall or Citadel Adbar and see if there is anything on the layout of the city.

Kami2awa
2008-11-05, 08:56 AM
The most difficult requirement for a city that's entirely underground is lack of an energy source for photosynthesis to grow food. There's a few ways round that:

- Magic. A wizard did it, or possibly there's underground plants that thrive on magic and don't need sunlight. An easy one would be use lots of Continual Flames to provide light for subterranean farms.
- Geothermal heat, providing an energy source for some living thing that forms the basis of a food chain. Can power the forges too, and maybe even steam engines if the dwarves are that advanced.
- Radioactivity doing the same thing.
- Chemosynthesis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemosynthesis. This 'powers' subterranean ecosystems in RL.

Terry Pratchett's later books detail some Dwarven cities with interesting features, such as huge canal lock systems acting as elevators between parts of the city.

Storm Bringer
2008-11-05, 09:12 AM
few ideas on dwaven cities:

Cities always need some way to earn a living. Now, mining is all well and good, but it's not likey that the mines that the city started on will last forever. It's more likey that the city itself moves form pimary industry (mining) to secondry industry (smelting, forging, gem-cutting etc), and aquires a signifcant Tertiary industry (shops, banks, markets,etc). A dwarf city is likey to be full of forges and surrounded by a network of smaller mines that feed raw matierals into the city.

all that heavy industy means that lots of heavy things need to be moved around, so the city is also likey to pocess very good transport links. the roads are going to be top notch, and the city will likey be built either on a river or have canal access to one,

Canals were the best way to shift goods before steam power took off. a water link into and out of the city would make the movment of all that heavy ore and worked goods vasty cheaper and easier. if the city is deep enough below the mountaintop, consider having a canal running though it that leads to a major river. that would make travel to and form the city easy, and allow both the mass export of dwarven goods, but also allow the mass import of things dwarves want, like firewood or luxry foods.

speaking of food, Grains like wheat and barley are going to be out of the question. thiers no way the dwarves could get them to grow in thier high mountain pastures. they could keep heard animals (goats and such), but they would need a alternate grain-replacement. you could always fall back on the 'shrooms, but other options exist, the simplest is that they just buy their grains form low-land farmers (which would explain why they are willing to sell weaponry to such a fickle bunch of people as humans: they need the food humans make).

the biggest cities are going to be the ones with the best transport which means that they are going to be sited on major rivers or on the coast. Maybe have the city built into the side of a grand canyon sized gorge? it'd be cool, and you could have water powered industy.

Space in a mined city is at a premium. every cubic foot of space had to be mined out at some expense and effort. a dwarf city would have extensive surface dwellings attached to it, where anything that didn't need to be undergound was built. for example, the heavy industy would likey be on the surface for ventilation purposes.

as others have siad, an aggressivly defended dwarf city is as close to untakable as any city is going to get. you'd need seriously impressive magic to take it. as in, summoning thousands of deamons impressive. Undead hordes might have a chance, but they'd lose so many troops in the effort it would break them as a threat.

paddyfool
2008-11-05, 09:37 AM
You might find a bit more general information at this website:

http://www.dlnexus.com/lexicon/13117.aspx

Four additional issues to the very fine ones raised so far visavis the workings of a subterranean city are Waste Disposal, Flooding, Tectonics, and Ventilation. A few suggestions for dealing with these:

1) Waste Disposal (particularly Sewage). You're going to need some well-engineered sewage system that doesn't open the city to attack. Disease isn't quite the same issue it is in the real world what with cure disease spells, but it's got to be a major consideration visavis quality of life. Solid wastes could potentially be burned for fuel if they could be safely sterilised which would limit consumption of plant biomass, but that's kind of icky. What you'd probably want is a hardcore sewage system maintained and guarded from within by golems, with alarm systems that go off if the golems are meddled with or destroyed or in case of intruders getting in.

2) Flooding. Especially since cities prosper from having sea links, and if your city extends below sea level, water breaking in might be an issue. Ants are pretty good at building tunnels in configurations that can stop water coming in despite, say, a puddle forming over a tunnel entrance. Also, there could be magical alarms etc. that go off in the event of floods/watertight entrances that seal off flooded sections if this is likely to be a major issue.

3) Tectonics. Earthquakes and volcanic activity could seriously spell doom for people within a hollow subterranean space. Perhaps some permanenced earthquake suppression spells might be in order, plus similar systems to those earmarked for floods in case of lava flows into the city. Explosive volcanic activity would still spell doom, but the same goes for cities on the surface (e.g. Pompeii) and dwarves should be expert enough in geology to see the warning signs and evacuate/get an epic spellcaster in if something like that looks like happening.

4) Ventilation. Because you really need to breathe. Also, you don't want poisonous or flammable gasses building up, and you want to keep things at a reasonably comfortable temperature. It could be that lava-fuelled plant life would release oxygen, but such things are tricky to manage (see the Biodomes, for instance). Otherwise... a system of vents, and, if sufficiently mechanical, big fans. Possibly also maintained and guarded by golems.

On city size: To be considered a "city", even in a medieval setting, you'll need at least 10,000 people. But I like the idea of close groups of a few hundred... maybe within such a city you'd have various large clans of a few thousand each with many sub-clans and small independent clans of a few hundred members. Clan disputes would be worked out between clan leaders and, if necessary, brought before the lord of the city and his administration. The lord would probably be a hereditary role belonging to one clan, with other senior positions also perhaps hereditary to other clans if you'd like it to be slightly caste-based (defence, engineering, trade, food, magic etc.). Outside of the clans, some authority would also, naturally, accrue to organised religion. Lots of potential plot hooks in that kind of politics...

Subotei
2008-11-05, 06:53 PM
Some good points there paddyfool. I'd just add:

Waste disposal - thats valuable fertilizer you're getting rid of - what about collectors with buckets rather than a fancy disposal system. One of the lowest jobs in the city - hauling cr@p to the surface farms :smalleek:

Ventilation: one of the oldest techniques to ventilate mines is to light a fire at the bottom of a shaft - hot air rises. This draws in cool air down other shafts and gives a circulation of air as this new air travels towards the fire. With the level of skill of a typical Dwarf community this could easily be achived using geothermal heat/lava/magic etc. With the correct engineering it could be used defensively to create strong winds or to draw smoke, gases etc into specific areas.