Directions to Swordsage//???

[DrizztFan24]

So I am looking for a nice swordsage gestalt. My group has a dragonshaman/ranger, rogue/bard, and bard/sorc. I was thinking a swordsage focusing on shadow hand. I have only read through ToB once but I noticed that Shadow Hand was a very powerful school compared to some of the others, but other schools did have a few diamonds in the mud. Not that I am calling ToB mud...its just a phrase.

So what are you guys thinking?

If there is a handbook of some kind for swordsages just let me know where I can find it.

[shadow_archmagi]

Emerald is always nice, particularly if your other half is going to be psionic.

[Jack_Simth]

You've got the Skillmonkey, Meatshield, and Arcanist covered in your party already.

As Swordsages get 6+Int skill points per level, you'll make a fine backup skillmonkey.

For your other side, you'll want something that works well with the Wisdom-based Swordsage - as your party is missing a Divine caster, that works out well - a Cleric or Druid would work out exceptionally well (Druid very much so, as standard Wildshape lets you dump Strength and Dex, for the most part).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So I am looking for a nice swordsage gestalt. My group has a dragonshaman/ranger, rogue/bard, and bard/sorc. I was thinking a swordsage focusing on shadow hand. I have only read through ToB once but I noticed that Shadow Hand was a very powerful school compared to some of the others, but other schools did have a few diamonds in the mud. Not that I am calling ToB mud...its just a phrase.

So what are you guys thinking?

If there is a handbook of some kind for swordsages just let me know where I can find it.

Well, looking at your party makeup, it looks... odd. I don't think any of them really got the idea of what a Gestalt really is, because most of those combinations are really... sub-par. Rogue/Bard, for instance. You've got two skillmonkey classes, both with 3/4 BAB and same HD. And again, the Bard/Sorcerer... almost anything would go better with Sorcerer. So, I take this to mean your party isn't particularly concerned about Optimization.

To be blunt, ANYTHING out of ToB will likely take on the entire rest of the party, without needing Gestalt. You're going to have to be careful that you don't out-shine the rest of the party and cause hard problems.

Now then, there are two ways you can go with this:

1) Go for something with a high HD and BAB, like Fighter (actually, fighter splash with something better long term). This turns you into a melee monster and a true Tank.

2) Go for something with a lot of fun stuff. I'd suggest Cleric. Your party doesn't really have a full 'healer', a Dragon Shaman and a Bard do not count. For all your 'fix it' needs, you need a Cleric. If you're wanting to be "Your character and his flunkeys" party, you can even go DMM Persist Divine Power and Righteous Might and have a full BAB and D10 HD as well as all your normal cleric and swordsage goodness... basically, a Party of One.

Alternately, you could pick up Wizard, and be "Your character, and the coffee makers".

As far as Swordage stances/maneuvers, well... that depends on what you want to do with the swordsage part. You want to be unable to be hit? That would be Shadow Hand and Setting Sun with a leavening of Stone Dragon and Diamond Mind. You want to be damage output? Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw will be your primary disciplines, with Diamond Mind as a secondary and a little bit of Stone Dragon for Con damage.

[Eldariel]

I'd really like a Druid myself, just because a bear teleporting next to you and hitting you with a strength-draining attack is both, awesome and scary. Overall, a martial adept bear is just all sorts of awesome. Not to mention, having a Druid would cover all your healing needs (Wand of Lesser Vigor + Vigorous Circle) and Druid synergizes incredibly well with the Wis to AC-part. And you could use your animal companion if the party needs a second tank. So you'd be a tank and a healer. Slight (Cloistered) Cleric-dip on the Swordsage-side would get you the ability to DMM your Druid-spells too (DMM: Persist Vigorous Circle for the party and some other mass buffs). Also, your skill list would be complete with:
Spot
Listen
Hide
Move Silently

and you could max out Survival, Handle Animal and few Knowledges if your party happens to need those skills (or you feel your character should have them - at least Handle Animal and Knowledge: Nature seem like musts).


Now I know, I know, you could totally overshadow the entire party and do everything alone without the need for anyone else. The trick is: don't. Use DMM: Persist to Persist party buffs like Vigorous Circle to remove the need for downtime healing and to give your allies some more durability in combat. Add Prayer or such for some extra, and maybe Magic Circle against Evil or some such (centered on you) for even more goodies.

Without all sorts of buffs, you'd be just fine in taking down single opponents in combat with theatrics, but you'd still want the others to help against more opponents (and your animal companion can provide Rogue with flank and overall, the casters with meatshield). So you can be extremely useful for the party, but act as only a simple tank in actual combat. This way everyone gets to do something useful and be good at it thanks to your subtle help.


You could also be a backup Trapfinder by either picking "Kobold"-domain as a Cleric or taking the "Planar Touchstone"-feat bound to Catalogues of Enlightement allowing you to pick the said Domain. Alternatively, a small dip in (Feat) Rogue would work. It may be unnecessary though, depending on how good the Rogue/Bard is at that job. Still, having the ability could be useful since you're a sneak and may need to scout ahead, sometimes alone if the Rogue/Bard is unable to for whatever reason. Also, having self-sufficiency tends to be a good idea from flavour perspective.

Here's what I'd suggest:
Human (you'll be short on feats)
Martial Rogue 1 (you'll be short on feats - also, 8+Int skills on level 1 = gold)//Druid 1
Cloistered Cleric 1 (you'll be short on feats)//Druid 2
Swordsage 1 (first school focus in Tiger Claw - gets you Weapon Focus in Claws, which helps a bit)//Druid 3
Swordsage 2//Druid 4
etc.

Cleric Domains would be Undeath (be a different Druid!), Planning and Knowledge (or trade for Knowledge Devotion - little difference). This gets you Extra Turning and Extend Spell as bonus feats. Then just pick up Persistent Spell and DMM: Persistent Spell and you'll already be Persisting. After that, you pick up Natural Spell (duh), Adaptive Style (duh - must for Swordsages as it allows them to refresh all maneuvers in one Full-Round Action and to switch between their vast selection on command), Extra Turning if you want more spells to Persist, and whatever combat- and casting-feats you'd want. Stuff like Greenbound Summoning/Ashbound Summoning (if you wanna be high-powered and a summoner), Augment Summoning ('cause it's awesome), Power Attack (if you qualify), Multiattack, Natural Bond (improves your animal companion) and whatever feats you need for the combat style you choose to pursue as a Swordsage fall here. You could go for some school focus feats, single ability focus (depending on what forms you plan on using - you could go for High Dex-forms and use stuff like Shadow Blade), TWF-chain, and whatever the heck else you may happen to desire. Really, the build will run out of feats long before it runs out of things to use them for (Ironheart Aura > Stormguard Warrior could be brutal with all your natural attacks, btw; requires one-level dip in Warblade though).

Already Natural Spell and Adaptive Style, the absolute musts, eat two of the four feats normally available to Humans from 1-6. Beyond that, Persistent Spell and DMM: Persistent would eat the other two, leaving only the Martial Rogue-feat open.


Later on, you could dip two-three levels in Bloodclaw Master to remove the -2 penalty from Multiattacking (that's how it should work anyways) and to get full damage to all your Claws. That, and still continuing your normal maneuver growth and getting some handy abilities.

[streakster]

Personally, I'd go Warblade//Swordsage (With Prc's as appropiate). It just works well -full BAB, ridiculous amounts of maneuvers, Dual Boost/Stance synergy, etc. Some MAD, of course. You could go into Master of Nine on one side and be insane, but that's just mean considering the rest of your party, really.

[Eldariel]

Personally, I'd go Warblade//Swordsage (With Prc's as appropiate). It just works well -full BAB, ridiculous amounts of maneuvers, Dual Boost/Stance synergy, etc. Some MAD, of course. You could go into Master of Nine on one side and be insane, but that's just mean considering the rest of your party, really.

If going dual adept, I'd suggest Swordsage//Crusader instead. The party lacks healing, so the Devoted Spirit-maneuvers would most certainly be welcome, and Crusader is less Charisma-reliant than Warblade is Int-reliant. Could pick up MoTN on Crusader-side to still gain the Dual Stance-part, and access to Iron Heart. Then again, this kind of a build would have a ton of abilities it would never get to use simply because it has way more maneuvers than it has actions, and there's relatively little in terms of other abilities you'd be gaining from the classes, so it's a less-than-optimal combo.

[Vortling]

I'd keep it simple. Go with cleric, druid, or psychic warrior straight up the other side. If you wanted to look at a int based class for more shadowy stuff see if your DM will let feats like Kung Fu Genius work for your swordsage side to let your swordsage stuff work off Int.

[streakster]

If going dual adept, I'd suggest Swordsage//Crusader instead. The party lacks healing, so the Devoted Spirit-maneuvers would most certainly be welcome, and Crusader is less Charisma-reliant than Warblade is Int-reliant. Could pick up MoTN on Crusader-side to still gain the Dual Stance-part, and access to Iron Heart. Then again, this kind of a build would have a ton of abilities it would never get to use simply because it has way more maneuvers than it has actions, and there's relatively little in terms of other abilities you'd be gaining from the classes, so it's a less-than-optimal combo.

Good idea on Crusader!

I know it isn't optimal, but it is fun, and considering who he's playing with...

[elliott20]

I'd really like a Druid myself, just because a bear teleporting next to you and hitting you with a strength-draining attack is both, awesome and scary. *snip for brevity*

BEHOLD!!! AN AWAKENED BEAR MARTIAL ADEPT!!!

http://www.fightersgeneration.com/games/32_kuma_l.jpg

[DrizztFan24]

Well, looking at your party makeup, it looks... odd. I don't think any of them really got the idea of what a Gestalt really is, because most of those combinations are really... sub-par. Rogue/Bard, for instance. You've got two skillmonkey classes, both with 3/4 BAB and same HD. And again, the Bard/Sorcerer... almost anything would go better with Sorcerer. So, I take this to mean your party isn't particularly concerned about Optimization.

Well the Dragon Shaman/Ranger (brother) is age 11 and likes to think he is a meat shield and beat stick of awesome....so either druid or cleric would go well with buffing him. The Rogue/bard (sister) is 13 but acts like she is 12. She is incredibly greedy...way more than Haley is. She is supposed to be our party face but tries to get out of doing her sneaky/trapfinding job whenever possible. The bard/sorc (sister's friend) is 12 I think and she is a first time gamer and wants to focus on summons later, pretty much just hang back and let her minions do the work. There is my dad's DMNPC, a divine bard, that may consider picking up cleric just to provide us with some healing....but he doesn't do more than a DMNPC should, clues at the right time and hes pretty useless in combat (whip).

We are playing the Shackled City adventure path if that makes any difference in your choices.

It seems to me like druid would be nice but I would end up focusing on my wildshape and using the ToB stuff to make the Beast more Beastly. The cleric seems a better option for having the Swordsage as the "primary class." Or am I reading this wrong?

EDIT:
I had considered a dip into the Lion-Totem Barb for the Pounce with a full attack option....good idea or are better options on the table?

*imagines the images going through other's heads with a teleporting bear that drains you health when it touches you getting a full attack option and next round causing you to explode....or something similar.

[Eldariel]

Dipping for Pounce isn't a horrible idea, but since you're an Adept/Caster, you'll already have access to Lion's Charge and Pouncing Charge-abilities, making it kind of redundant. It would save your Swift Actions though, which is never bad.


As far as Druid goes, it honestly depends on what you do - Swordsage doesn't make for that good a secondary class though so you'd probably end up seeming like a Swordsage anyways: you'd probably use a maneuver every turn - your spellcasting would be mostly longterm buffs, out-of-combat utility, few combat utility spells maneuvers can't handle (such as Dispel Magic) and perhaps one-two damage spells for when you need to operate at a longer range.

Primary combat strategy would still be to Wildshape into something mean, buff yourself, your animal companion and whatever other party members are eligible into high heavens and then beat things up with your maneuvers. Basically every combat action you take is a maneuver simply because it tends to be better than just attacking. Also, you'd have a wealth of counters for when they happen to be applicable (Counter Charge, for example, is a big one as is Zephyr Dance).


That said, Cleric does pack more buffs. Druid's buffs come in form of Wildshape. I do prefer the idea of a ginormous bear smacking people around with a variety of exotic combat techniques to a priest-with-a-stick smacking people around though. As a mechanical bonus, Druid can focus solely on Wisdom (since Wildshape provides you with Str and Dex independent of how much you invest in them), making your Wisdom-save giving maneuvers actually quite useful. You could even pick up the "Stunning Fist"-feat to add few extra SoDs per day to your repertoire.

Imagine using a Strike that forces a Will-save (say, the Diamond Mind-strike named "Disrupting Blow"), and adding Stunning Fist to that with your combat buffs on: Opponent rolls a Will-save (DC big) and Fort-save (DC big) or is screwed and even if both succeed, he still takes your standard attack worth of damage (which is a lot). Heck, take a form with only one natural attack to get 1.5 Str into the damage for even more pain - when using Strikes, one attack is all you need anyways. As further bonus, forms with multiple natural attacks synergize incredibly well with Tiger Claw and Desert Wind-boosts, giving you the option to switch combat style on the fly between Strikes and full attacks, depending on whichever happens to suit the sitiuation.


By the sound of it, being a backup trapfinder and face wouldn't be a bad idea at all. That way, you count ensure she stays honest. Also, you'd be able to pump your Sense Motive skyhigh (class skill + Wisdom focus) so you could see through any and all lies, and could even be a backup face should need be.

All this would probably cause her to start playing more party friendly to make herself seem needed - you wouldn't actually have to use the abilities, but just the fact that you have the option to would be enough to probably make her more engaged in the party activities.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, Cloistered Cleric 1/Barbarian 3/Swordsage X//Druid X would be a very good option. On level 3, Barbarian gets the "Trapkiller" alternative class feature, which allows you to use SURVIVAL to find traps, and attack roll to disable most of them (you have Dispel Magic for magical ones anyways). This would mean you'd have to max:
Spot
Listen
Sense Motive
Survival


leaving you plenty of skillpoints over (for Hide, Move Silently, Concentration, Handle Animal, Diplomacy, Knowledge: Nature, Gather Information, etc.) and most importantly, making all your important skills Wis-derived. Now, you take -5 to find traps with Trapkiller, but your Wis is high enough to make those rolls just as high as your Search and Disable Device would be (since they're Int-based), and this would mean that instead of having to take ranks in two crossclass skills, you'd be ok with just one class skill.

This would make your guy the "undecievable one" or the seer - make him a silent "in the corner"-sort of personality (think Raistlin, except less evil), but one that doesn't miss anything and steps in when need be. You'd be a sort of backup or an asset - instead of dominating the party socially, you only say something when something needs to be said and let others go about their business - whether it's because they amuse you or because you believe they'll do just fine without is something for you to decide. Overall, I think you'd make for a fine "silent mover" character who doesn't act so blatantly (except in combat), but is very good at making things run and engineering actions.

[DrizztFan24]

By the sound of it, being a backup trapfinder and face wouldn't be a bad idea at all. That way, you count ensure she stays honest. Also, you'd be able to pump your Sense Motive skyhigh (class skill + Wisdom focus) so you could see through any and all lies, and could even be a backup face should need be.

All this would probably cause her to start playing more party friendly to make herself seem needed - you wouldn't actually have to use the abilities, but just the fact that you have the option to would be enough to probably make her more engaged in the party activities.

This would make your guy the "undecievable one" or the seer - make him a silent "in the corner"-sort of personality (think Raistlin, except less evil), but one that doesn't miss anything and steps in when need be. You'd be a sort of backup or an asset - instead of dominating the party socially, you only say something when something needs to be said and let others go about their business - whether it's because they amuse you or because you believe they'll do just fine without is something for you to decide. Overall, I think you'd make for a fine "silent mover" character who doesn't act so blatantly (except in combat), but is very good at making things run and engineering actions.

Snipped at proper locations^

It is not that she is unfriendly towards the party, she just doesnt want to lose her character and wants to become a powerful/influential person. But yes she does steal from the party....alot....in regards to loot. I had never really given it thought since I knew that It wouldn't matter much in the long run. But she doesn't like to look for traps because she fears her skills are too low. So a backup trap-tripper trapfinder is not a horrible idea.

And my current character had actually been trying to pull off the whole silent motivator bit. It hasn't worked out much because I didn't want to have to charm her or anything nasty like that. She wouldn't openly retaliate but she would end up slowing down the game with threats and schemes that she will never carry out.

[Eldariel]

What level is this on, btw?

[DrizztFan24]

right now two but the Shackled City takes you up to 18. I have never played a game past level 13 anyways. That was very briefly with very underpowered characters.

[playswithfire]

Swordsage has a lot of options depending on what you want out of it

As mentioned swordsage//warblade can be quite nice, particularly if you take Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk to make your AC bonus INT based instead of WIS based.

Swordsage//Cleric and Swordsage//Druid also very strong choices. I'd consider going with the shapeshift druid variant if only because, as stated, your party seems somewhat suboptimal.

Fighter or sneak-attack-variant fighter is a nice, simple complement to the swordsage and some barbarian variants work well with different disciplines; wolf totem for Setting Sun and pounce variant for tiger claw, for instance.

Whatever you pick, you'll have a pretty strong character.

[monty]

I think the real question here is how much better than the rest of the party you want to be.