I could use some help from those more experienced [Archive]

jguy

2008-11-07, 02:48 PM

Hello everyone. I'm new to the forum and still somewhat new to the game of D&D and I could use some help from those who know more than me.

I've only played this game for about a couple months now, a game or so a week off and on. I didn't think I'd like the game so much, but I do. My coworker got me into it because they wanted more people in their playgroup. Anyway, without going too much into back story, I need help.

My playgroup likes to start games with midlevel characters, from level 5-9. Anyway, my problem is, everyone I play with is such a complete min-maxer that I feel totally useless all the time. They use classes/races I've never heard of, feats I don't know, have tons of stuff memorized and a lot of time fights are over before I get off more than 1 action.

They also like to take advantage of me/my characters a lot, then site alignment differences or "that's how my character would act" as reasons why I can't get upset. Here is a perfect example of what I mean:

I was playing a Lawful Neutral Halfling Cleric, he was level 9. He had already been kidnapped twice in the span of 3 games [don't ask why. Never wander off alone in a city]. Anyway, the tower we were in had collapsed, falling into a large portal to the realm of shadows. To investigate what was inside of it, the four armed fighter in the group decided to play "Halfling Yo-Yo" with my character. He grappled my character, tied him up with silk rope [with the assistance of no more than 2 other party members] and then proceeded to lower my dude into the dang portal! This was before we knew it was a portal either, we just knew it was a wall of blackness. Then, being rightly upset, I threatened to not heal the guys anymore if they did crap like that again to me. Everyone got upset at [I]me! They said my alignment meant I would just suck it up and continue to heal them like nothing happened.

After that, I decided I didn't want to play a healbot essentially. I rolled a human fighter, I like to play humans, easier to roleplay, and he started at level 4. My DM decided to F with me by making every dungeon we went into like pitch black but everyone else had lowlight vision or darkvision except me. Nearly the entire thing involved me trying to see in one way or another. Later, after a couple sessions, my character was killed by the [apparent] Lawful Evil caster who didn't like I intimidated him, despite the fact he treated me like crap the whole damn game. [he cast light on my nose when I asked for assistance with seeing. I had to tight a cloth under my eyes to just see 15 feet ahead of me]

I don't know what I am asking really. I just want help with making characters that can do stuff and aren't killed by a single hold person from an irate mage. I don't like to play casters since I like fighting instead of casting. I've been reading the ToB a lot lately, since the classes there are very interesting.

arguskos

2008-11-07, 02:52 PM

I would suggest... getting a new party and not playing with *******s. Those stories aren't indicative of friendly players, or a DM who's on your side.

For example, they use your character to check out an unknown portal, and when you get (rightly) pissed about it, they claim your alignment will permit them to continue, and you have to suck on it? Yeah... no. That's not how it works. Tell them to screw off, and go and get a new group that's more open to newer players.

XiaoTie

2008-11-07, 02:58 PM

No wonder your group needed more people on their playgroup, they probably scared the others by being the apparent jerks they seem to be. Telling you that your character shouldn't be pissed because of something due to your character's alignment is downright moronic.

My first sugestion would be find a better group, but thats not what you asked about :smallbiggrin:. I'm not a good optimizer, but ToB is, indeed, a good start. You could get some better help from people who know how to make the cleric (or druid) a better frontliner than most of the classes designed to do that.

Telonius

2008-11-07, 02:59 PM

Well, I could probably help you to make some higher-powered characters, but that doesn't really sound like it will help with the real problem. What you're describing is basically a very inexperienced group of roleplayers. The big tip-off for that is this sentence:

"They said my alignment meant I would just suck it up and continue to heal them like nothing happened."

Alignment does not work that way. Alignment does not dictate actions. Actions determine alignment. This is a crucial mistake that a lot of beginning players make. "Lawful Neutral Cleric" does not mean that you'll necessarily help out a bunch of people who are beating up on you. Not even a Lawful Good deity will require that. (Exalted Deeds might, but that's a separate issue). Nobody but you can say what your character would do. The DM can throw a thunderbolt, or force the character to act in some way; but then it's the DM's character and not yours.

The object of D&D is to have fun. You aren't having fun, and the other players and DM don't seem to realize that. My advice is to approach the group, individually, and explain that to them. If they don't change, or at least make an attempt to compromise, then you have a choice of sucking it up and continuing to play, or moving on.

jguy

2008-11-07, 03:04 PM

Kris Strife

2008-11-07, 03:10 PM

write a note for each player that reads 'With this note, I curse your dice' and put it under their sheets when theyre away, and then quit the group. each note has to be individually hand written though.

Raum

2008-11-07, 03:10 PM

My playgroup likes to start games with midlevel characters, from level 5-9. Anyway, my problem is, everyone I play with is such a complete min-maxer that I feel totally useless all the time. They use classes/races I've never heard of, feats I don't know, have tons of stuff memorized and a lot of time fights are over before I get off more than 1 action. A couple of different things you can do here... change your expectations - find ways to enjoy the game even if / when your character doesn't have much power relative to others.
change your characters - learn to min / max and join 'em - or just find characters built by other min/maxers online.
change your group - find a group who concentrates on the aspects of the game you enjoy.

They also like to take advantage of me/my characters a lot, then site alignment differences or "that's how my character would act" as reasons why I can't get upset.If this is true, walk away. Those aren't the actions of friends. Do make sure it's true though.

Here is a perfect example of what I mean:

I was playing a Lawful Neutral Halfling Cleric, he was level 9. He had already been kidnapped twice in the span of 3 games [don't ask why. Never wander off alone in a city]. It can be difficult far a GM to deal with multiple groups of PCs. Some compensate by taking the wanderer out of the picture - using either temporary (capture) or final (death) methods.

Anyway, the tower we were in had collapsed, falling into a large portal to the realm of shadows. To investigate what was inside of it, the four armed fighter in the group decided to play "Halfling Yo-Yo" with my character. He grappled my character, tied him up with silk rope [with the assistance of no more than 2 other party members] and then proceeded to lower my dude into the dang portal! This was before we knew it was a portal either, we just knew it was a wall of blackness. Then, being rightly upset, I threatened to not heal the guys anymore if they did crap like that again to me. Everyone got upset at [I]me! They said my alignment meant I would just suck it up and continue to heal them like nothing happened. Actions have consequences. They're trying to avoid the logical consequences of their own actions.

After that, I decided I didn't want to play a healbot essentially. I rolled a human fighter, I like to play humans, easier to roleplay, and he started at level 4. My DM decided to F with me by making every dungeon we went into like pitch black but everyone else had lowlight vision or darkvision except me. This isn't necessarily the DM "F-ing with you", tunnels are generally expected to be dark.

Nearly the entire thing involved me trying to see in one way or another. Later, after a couple sessions, my character was killed by the [apparent] Lawful Evil caster who didn't like I intimidated him, despite the fact he treated me like crap the whole damn game. [he cast light on my nose when I asked for assistance with seeing. I had to tight a cloth under my eyes to just see 15 feet ahead of me]

I don't know what I am asking really. I just want help with making characters that can do stuff and aren't killed by a single hold person from an irate mage. I don't like to play casters since I like fighting instead of casting. I've been reading the ToB a lot lately, since the classes there are very interesting.The ToB classes are closer to the casters' power level. You'll need to decide for yourself how much of that treatment to put up with before walking away though. Class power level probably isn't the entire problem.

Saph

2008-11-07, 03:18 PM

The thing is, I don't know where I could get another play group. And the guys are good guys outside of the game, but inside...not so much. A lot of time I feel taken advantage of, or my ignorance was being exploited.

Hmm . . . difficult. It sounds like the other players consider you an easy target. They pull this stuff because they think you're safe to do it with. As Xiao said, no wonder they needed another player if this is how they treat newbies.

If you want to keep playing with this group and don't want to be taken advantage of, you have to present yourself in such a way that they don't mess with you. This is attitude more than anything else, though one or two demonstrations might be necessary.

The easier approach is probably to find another group. But if that's not an option, you're going to have to play the way they do.

- Saph

jguy

2008-11-07, 03:19 PM

I'd hate to walk away. I'm learning more and more about the game so my ignorance stops showing so much. Well, except with D&D lore, I don't know where anything is or what certain towns are

jguy

2008-11-07, 03:22 PM

I'm slowly starting to play the way they do, min-maxing, I just don't know enough to do it well just yet.

Danin

2008-11-07, 03:22 PM

Well jguy, let me start by saying welcome to the playground!:smallbiggrin:

Here you will find some fantastic advice from even cooler people, so welcome to the game and feel free to ask us questions whenever you need to.

Regarding your specific problem, as Telonius explained quite well, the other players in your group do appear to be more immature role players. While finding a new gaming group is always good, its not always the easiest thing and it can strain personal relationships, so be conscious of that if you decide to go that rout. Working with the group you have now the best thing you could probably do is to sit down and have a chat with them. Explain that you don't feel like your character is being treated fairly and that detracts from your enjoyment of the game. If they are reasonable people they will understand, admit their mistake and make an effort to stop it from happening again.

Working within the context of the game is another matter entirely. The example you provided with them claiming your alignment wouldn't allow that is complete hog-wash so realize this important lesson now: Actions determine alignment, not the other way around. This being understood, in a group such as this, the "Neutral" alignment would fit you well. Make it clear that you are playing such a character as one who acts appropriately to what they receive. If people are kind to them, they will be kind. If people are cruel to them, well, you better believe some sort of... recompense, would be decided upon (Without necessarily telling the others right away). A logical choice for a character such as this would be a Druid, one of the stronger classes and one that takes very little to optimize. I'll leave the more mechanical optimization to people more talented than myself (I'm looking at you Fax) but off the top of my head, if you have the fleshraker (Or something akin to that) from Monster Manual 3 available, wild shape into that and take Natural Spell as a feat.

Regardless, try and work out your problems with the characters without resorting to petty revenge to a far worse degree than what they did to you. They stole 20g? That doesn't mean you kill them in their sleep. They risk your life by dropping you into a portal? Risk their lives by not healing for one combat and then you are square. This is a very dangerous game to play and will likely end up with you dead, so I can't stress this enough: Work out your problems out of character before resorting to anything like this. Your players are the type that want to have a lot of stupid wacky good fun and are willing to do so at the expense of your enjoyment, don't expect it to end well regardless.

Hope that helps, cheers!

Telonius

2008-11-07, 03:23 PM

The thing is, I don't know where I could get another play group. And the guys are good guys outside of the game, but inside...not so much. A lot of time I feel taken advantage of, or my ignorance was being exploited. It makes me want to roll a cleric with the Mother Cyst feat and start going a-tumoring on them all

Well, like I said, that choice will be up to you. You're the only person who can say whether or not what you're getting out of it is worth the hassle.

As far as getting another group, there are other options. Online roleplay, PBP here on the boards, recruiting other people in your town (who haven't ever played D&D before), being the DM yourself. You might check out some of that group's former members for recruitment options.

EDIT: Just for optimization purposes, it might help us if you could give us an idea of what the other characters can do. Just how much cheese are we talking about here?

jguy

2008-11-07, 03:31 PM

I must say, I am amazed at the responsiveness of the group here. You are all so nice and informed!

Texas Jedi

2008-11-07, 03:31 PM

I'd hate to walk away. I'm learning more and more about the game so my ignorance stops showing so much. Well, except with D&D lore, I don't know where anything is or what certain towns are

There is and isn't DnD lore, that is based on the setting you are playing in. If I was playing in a Forgotten Realms setting I would know a bunch about it because I read the books and have several of the supplements. If I was thrown into a Greyhawk or Ebberon setting I would be just as a newbie as you.

I would suggest getting a new group but since you don't seem to want to do that I would suggest looking around the interweb for optimized styled characters and play as them.

Second, I might hoist them by their own petard, if they jack with you, jack with them back. Play a mage and "accidently" get one or two of them in a cone of frost for example. I know that is making you sink to their level but at least they might stop picking on you.

Saph

2008-11-07, 03:47 PM

I'm slowly starting to play the way they do, min-maxing, I just don't know enough to do it well just yet.

It's not so much about min-maxing (though you'll need to do that as well). It's about what you are and aren't willing to put up with. The other players wouldn't be pulling this stuff if they hadn't already identified you as an easy target.

Note that this is not about getting revenge - as Danin says, this just leads to more trouble. The idea isn't to get revenge, it's to make sure you aren't getting treated in the kind of way that makes you want to get revenge in the first place.

- Saph

Mephit

2008-11-07, 03:59 PM

I must say, I am amazed at the responsiveness of the group here. You are all so nice and informed!

Yeah, we're awesomesauce. :smalltongue:

If you want to stay with this group, I have one advice with you: Don't let the others pick on you because you're the new guy. Sure, they can laugh at you if you make a dumb mistake, or pull small OOC pranks on you for that, but don't let them mess IC with you because you're inexperienced. Either simply tell them to knock it off or fight back IC. I'll admit that I did murder my entire party in their sleep because they used my character in a similar manner: they found a font with a red liquid in the middle in the temple, and threw him in. It turned out that there was something pretty vicious in there that managed to drop me into negative HP. (To my defense though: what were they expecting to get in an evil campaign after messing with the Chaotic Kobold Rogue?) One note and an IC night later, we were told to make new characters. :smallamused:
My partymembers found out later due to the kobold showing up later in the campaign, but they're good buddies of mine, so they quickly forgot about it.

Wow. This turned out to be one big anecdote. I had something entirely different in mind when I started typing. >_>
Scrap the awesomesauce, I guess. :smallredface:

Curmudgeon

2008-11-07, 05:49 PM

Hello everyone. I'm new to the forum and still somewhat new to the game of D&D and I could use some help from those who know more than me.
...
[he cast light on my nose when I asked for assistance with seeing. I had to tight a cloth under my eyes to just see 15 feet ahead of me]
These aren't min-maxers you're playing with; these are cheaters, who are using the D&D game setting to stroke their egos. For instance, your nose is a part of you (a creature), and cannot be considered an object:
Target: Object touched

This spell causes an object to glow like a torch Here's the text of the relevant distinction, from the Magic chapter of the Player's Handbook:
Aiming A Spell

You must make some choice about whom the spell is to affect or where the effect is to originate, depending on the type of spell. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell’s target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. If you can't find a better group to play with, your best weapon is knowledge. You can find that here.

jguy

2008-11-07, 05:52 PM

Well, thank you all for your help. I appreciate it

KKL

2008-11-07, 05:58 PM

Wanna know how to get them to lay off, or at least how I would do it?

Logic Ninja, Batman. Make a Batman Wizard. Rape everyone in the bunghole. Tel them to back the **** off and not play like a packet of douchebags.

EDIT: The four armed fighter? Most likely a Thri-Keen.

jguy

2008-11-07, 06:14 PM

nope, not a thri-kreen. He got confused as a Djinn actually in one town. That is why I got kidnapped. Some guy thought I was the Djinns familiar >.>

KKL

2008-11-07, 06:15 PM

nope, not a thri-kreen. He got confused as a Djinn actually in one town. That is why I got kidnapped. Some guy thought I was the Djinns familiar >.>

Djinns...can have four arms? >_>

Learn something new every day.

jguy

2008-11-07, 06:17 PM

apparently.

I've thought on making an evil cleric disguised as a good one. Heal everyone and such while secretly putting Cysts inside of them until I am high enough level to either mentally dominate them permanently or make them go Boom. Leave a note saying "Halflings hate Yo-Yos"

SoD

2008-11-07, 06:23 PM

My advice? Look up Punpun. Then we'll see who's laughing. That's right, it'll be you!

And four arms, not a thri-keen...a chitine maybe? Was he small sized and spiderlike? Or maybe he just had a template.

jguy

2008-11-07, 06:28 PM

I don't know, but he was big enough for my halfing cleric to ride on his shoulders. He was like 6 something feet tall. He was our fighter.

KKL

2008-11-07, 06:31 PM

Starsinger

2008-11-07, 06:35 PM

My advice? Look up Punpun. Then we'll see who's laughing. That's right, it'll be you!

asdfghk

Pun-Pun is a Theoretical Optimization build. It's not meant to be actually played. Even if you were to try and play it, it would require so much DM fiat and handwaving that the DM would figure out what you wanted to do long before you actually began planning it out.

More importantly, that's really not the answer. That's like if he was complaining about them being bigger and stronger in a game of football, your advice being "Take steroids, learn to fight, beat the hell out of them."

JMobius

2008-11-07, 06:36 PM

If you can't find a better group to play with, your best weapon is knowledge. You can find that here.

I'm not sure that rebutting with RAW rules lawyering is going to improve the situation.

My recommendation goes toward talking with your GM about how you're feeling, and if he has any suggestions for a niche you could fill. Ask him to talk to the party about treating you as, essentially, the group butt monkey. If his response is anything to the effect of "sucks to be you", find another group. Playing the game as an arms race with the GM, or hostile party members, is a recipe for frustration.

FoE

2008-11-07, 06:54 PM

I don't know, but he was big enough for my halfing cleric to ride on his shoulders. He was like 6 something feet tall. He was our fighter.

Sounds like he was from the race of "made-up bulls***." :smalltongue:

You know, even if you can't find another group to play with, you could always play online. There are plenty of PBP games on this forum.

jguy

2008-11-07, 07:02 PM

ya, I was looking into the PBP thingies. They look interesting. Any recommendations

Starbuck_II

2008-11-07, 07:09 PM

I don't know, but he was big enough for my halfing cleric to ride on his shoulders. He was like 6 something feet tall. He was our fighter.

Thri-Keen? They are bug race with 4 arms.
Maybe he okayed reflavor them into humaniod with 4 arms instead of a bug.

My suggestion play a Neutral (who channels positive energy) or evil Cleric (with dual channeling feat that lets evil cleric spontanously cast healing spells).
Good Clerics get pissed on in that game. Choose the God of wealth/Greed/Merchants.
When they ask for heal, ask for a dollar (real or game money).

When they say "what?"
Say, "that is what my charactrer would do. If you treat my Cleric better I might do it for free."

It might make them nicer (at least so they get heals), they might learn to respect you, but than again they might be jerks.

Revanmal

2008-11-07, 07:19 PM

Thri-Keen? They are bug race with 4 arms.
Maybe he okayed reflavor them into humaniod with 4 arms instead of a bug.

My suggestion play a Neutral (who channels positive energy) or evil Cleric (with dual channeling feat that lets evil cleric spontanously cast healing spells).
Good Clerics get pissed on in that game. Choose the God of wealth/Greed/Merchants.
When they ask for heal, ask for a dollar (real or game money).

When they say "what?"
Say, "that is what my charactrer would do. If you treat my Cleric better I might do it for free."

It might make them nicer (at least so they get heals), they might learn to respect you, but than again they might be jerks.

Heh... this way you're no longer a healbot. You're a vending machine. ...For band-aids.

Return of Lanky

2008-11-07, 07:31 PM

Start preparing Inflict spells, then play dumb "in character".

For example, when the four-armed fighter needs healing later...

"Oh, you're critical? Let me just use my spell. Whoops, I forgot to spontaneously convert it from negative to positive energy! I guess you're dead! Oh, I've got a diamond for a Raise Dead spell, but it's going to have to wait for morning. Sorry about the level loss, I was just so confused... Perhaps if I hadn't been mistreated and tossed around, my head would be a lot clearer!"

Take on a dark tone of voice for the last. Clerics represent the paradox of power as a healer. They can either be mistreated or stepped around very lightly depending on how the group treats them and how the player responds. Better yet, get in the practice of healing them *just* enough to let them get through the next fight.

Then, when they go to pull some crap on you... Smack 'em around. You can heal yourself, they can't heal themselves. If you haven't been keeping them topped up (and have been instead saving the spells for later "just in case"), by the end of the day a Cleric can probably take on the rest of his party. Nearly wipe them and see if they ever pull this sort of thing again.

You can always roll another cleric if it fails. But eventually, one of them is going to die, and they're a lot more attached to their characters than you are to your third walking band-aid dispenser.

Yeah. The two games I was the cleric in one of the few games I wasn't GM, my party quickly learned to step lightly around me. All hail CoDzilla

Twilight Jack

2008-11-07, 07:33 PM

My advice? Stop playing with douche-nozzles.

If there's a local gaming or hobby store, go there and start asking around about folks who play the game. Find a new group.

Alternately, start posting here looking for other gamers in your area.

The problem isn't with your knowledge of how to properly min-max. The problem is that these excellent fellows apparently find it socially acceptable to use their fantasy game to bully people. They're stoking their own fragile little egos at your expense, and it seems like the DM is complicit in it. Sure, I could offer you some advice on how to beat them at their own game, but it's a game that no one should have to play in the first place. Besides, if the DM is as much a part of it as the players (and it sounds as though that's the case), no amount of rules-lawyering or min/maxing can possibly see you come out on top. The first rule of D&D is that the DM is functionally omnipotent. If your DM is abusing that power and cannot be reasoned with, then your only recourse is to walk away from the table.

So seek out better friends. The ones you have now seem to suck.

Neftren

2008-11-07, 07:35 PM

Thri-Keen? They are bug race with 4 arms.
Maybe he okayed reflavor them into humaniod with 4 arms instead of a bug.

My suggestion play a Neutral (who channels positive energy) or evil Cleric (with dual channeling feat that lets evil cleric spontanously cast healing spells).
Good Clerics get pissed on in that game. Choose the God of wealth/Greed/Merchants.
When they ask for heal, ask for a dollar (real or game money).

When they say "what?"
Say, "that is what my charactrer would do. If you treat my Cleric better I might do it for free."

It might make them nicer (at least so they get heals), they might learn to respect you, but than again they might be jerks.

That totally sounds like something :belkar: would do.

Other suggestions I would suggest are to play a Wizard and just keep casting the same cantrip over and over again... So cast Create Water repetitively on whoever has annoyed you the most when the party is sleeping or something.

Cheesegear

2008-11-07, 07:37 PM

Alignment doesn't work that way. No-one ever hangs out with people they don't like. Regardless of alignment. If you're Lawful Neutral, you don't have to put up with their crap.
They are right on one point, your character probably would put up with that crap. But then he'd leave.

In fact, you could go by the 'Law' of Tit-for-tat. You screw with me, I screw with you. Such as letting them die.

"Hey, remember that time when you dropped me in a hole? I could've died. Now, see how I'm not healing you, you could die. Funny how this works...".

It can easily be justified as Lawful, and, if you can work it right, it'll turn out as Neutral too. Although, you've got to be careful not to go overboard, as that kind of behaviour pretty quickly can turn evil.

What alignments are the others playing, by the way? If you really want to, start playing a wizard or similar, and casting Charm/Hold/Dominate Person on the party. The four-armed guy might be a monster. Find out his race. And get the appropriate spell.
If he doesn't tell you (which seems likely if you still don't know after so many weeks), say you do eighteen thousand irreversible, irreducible damage. When he asks you how, don't tell him.

Or play a cleric of some kind of Trickery god. Then only heal them when you feel like it.

jguy

2008-11-07, 07:46 PM

I've stopped playing that cleric. I am not going to be a healer anymore. If I ever run a cleric, it'll be a battle cleric or something

only1doug

2008-11-08, 12:00 PM

Hello everyone. I'm new to the forum and still somewhat new to the game of D&D and I could use some help from those who know more than me.

Hi Jguy, Welcome to the playground and to DnD, there are plenty of people here who will be happy to help you out.

I've only played this game for about a couple months now, a game or so a week off and on. I didn't think I'd like the game so much, but I do. My coworker got me into it because they wanted more people in their playgroup. Anyway, without going too much into back story, I need help.

It is a fun game, especially when the players all get on well together.

My playgroup likes to start games with midlevel characters, from level 5-9. Anyway, my problem is, everyone I play with is such a complete min-maxer that I feel totally useless all the time. They use classes/races I've never heard of, feats I don't know, have tons of stuff memorized and a lot of time fights are over before I get off more than 1 action.

we can certainly help out with this, your characters too can become the very epitome of cheese.

They also like to take advantage of me/my characters a lot, then site alignment differences or "that's how my character would act" as reasons why I can't get upset. Here is a perfect example of what I mean:

*cough*expletivedescribingtheotherplayers*cough*

I was playing a Lawful Neutral Halfling Cleric, he was level 9. He had already been kidnapped twice in the span of 3 games [don't ask why. Never wander off alone in a city].
Quick note; you might be better off avoiding square brackets [] as the forum uses them for all its formatting commands, normal brackets avoid starting strange commands ()

Anyway, the tower we were in had collapsed, falling into a large portal to the realm of shadows. To investigate what was inside of it, the four armed fighter in the group decided to play "Halfling Yo-Yo" with my character. He grappled my character, tied him up with silk rope [with the assistance of no more than 2 other party members] and then proceeded to lower my dude into the dang portal! This was before we knew it was a portal either, we just knew it was a wall of blackness. Then, being rightly upset, I threatened to not heal the guys anymore if they did crap like that again to me. Everyone got upset at [I]me! They said my alignment meant I would just suck it up and continue to heal them like nothing happened.

Yeah, this sucks: you were right to be upset and they have no call to say that you shouldn't be.
This was bullying the new guy just because you can and is likely to be the reason they need more players.
As others have said you need to address this more than the power level thing. Its possible to have fun playing as a supporting character but not if the more powerful characters bully you (unless you are into that).

After that, I decided I didn't want to play a healbot essentially. I rolled a human fighter, I like to play humans, easier to roleplay, and he started at level 4. My DM decided to F with me by making every dungeon we went into like pitch black but everyone else had lowlight vision or darkvision except me. Nearly the entire thing involved me trying to see in one way or another. Later, after a couple sessions, my character was killed by the [apparent] Lawful Evil caster who didn't like I intimidated him, despite the fact he treated me like crap the whole damn game. [he cast light on my nose when I asked for assistance with seeing. I had to tight a cloth under my eyes to just see 15 feet ahead of me]

I can understand the GM not supplying a light source, there are ways around this. at level 4 you should of had some starting cash, which could of been used to offset the darkvision problem. The caster Fing you about is just more bullying and needs to be fixed.

I don't know what I am asking really. I just want help with making characters that can do stuff and aren't killed by a single hold person from an irate mage. I don't like to play casters since I like fighting instead of casting. I've been reading the ToB a lot lately, since the classes there are very interesting.

seems reasonable. Lets see what we can do.

only1doug

2008-11-08, 12:14 PM

First: Talk to GM, meet him privately and start a conversation along the lines of "hi bob*, it's been a month since i joined the group and i thought we might have a chat about how things are going. First off do you have any feedback about me as a player? is there anything you think i should be doing differently?

this gives the GM a chance to tell you how he views things and is important.

next move to your opinion of the game so far "well bob*, it's been a bit frustrating for me, I was invited to join the game but it seems like some of the players almost resent me joining in, they haven't really wanted my characters to join in, can you suggest any way i might be able to integrate better?"

now ask GM what level your new character can start at and if he has any suggestions for which class you should play. (hint: if the rest of the party are all 5 levels higher than your new character is allowed to start then the GM is indeed helping the players to mess you around and you can just expect more of the same.)

If having talked to the GM you get the sense that he isn't interested in helping you adapt then you are going to have to choose whether you wish to stay in the group and always be bullied or if you'd prefer to try to find another group.

If you decide to go, thank the GM and the players for introducing you to the game, then hunt down a better group.

*note: if your GM isn't called Bob you might prefer to address him by his actual name.

Saintjebus

2008-11-08, 08:40 PM

Definitely talk to the GM. If he is helping the other players mess with you, he is failing at his job(making the game fun for all the players). I would repeat the advice already given: it sounds like a new group might be the best answer.

Starbuck_II

2008-11-08, 09:50 PM

I can understand the GM not supplying a light source, there are ways around this. at level 4 you should of had some starting cash, which could of been used to offset the darkvision problem. The caster Fing you about is just more bullying and needs to be fixed.

seems reasonable. Lets see what we can do.

Doesn't the PHB have everburning torches in the equipment list? So they should be buyable.

Wckd

2008-11-08, 10:22 PM

It sounds like you've had a really rough start Jguy! I hope the situation improves for you in your current group very soon, or that you drop that one and find a newcomer friendly group instead. I believe the game is much more enjoyable in an environment where you feel welcome.

Doesn't the PHB have everburning torches in the equipment list? So they should be buyable.

Yup, page 128

jguy

2008-11-08, 11:38 PM

Thanks for all your support guys, it really helps.

Whiplord

2008-11-08, 11:52 PM

If you want a fun battle cleric, try making a Divine Metamagic Build.

Follow an ideal so you can take whatever domains you want. Take the Planning domain, and the Undeath Domain
Be a human for the extra feat. Your feat layout should look something like this:

1. Extra Turning (x2, one is from Undeath), Extend Spell(Bonus from Planning), Persistent Spell(human bonus)
3. Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell

The rest doesn't really matter that much. That might have a couple problems, but the basic idea is there. Basically, DMM allows you to apply Metamagic to spells by burning turn attempts a opposed to raising the level of the spell. With Persistent spell, you can make buff spells last 24 hours a go. For practically free.

Books used: Player's Handbook (Extra Turning, Extend Spell), Complete Warrior (Planning domain), Spell Compendium (Undeath Domain), Complete Divine (DMM), Complete Arcane (Persistent Spell)

DrizztFan24

2008-11-08, 11:55 PM

First off, isn't Lawful Neutral "The Judge?" I would judge that dropping a teammate into an unknown black space of nothing without their consent is a rather hostile act.

And I would suggest playing a ninja type of character or a powerhouse (druid, wizard, and cleric are all good. Artificer needs some DM fiat and sounds like the DM isn't too supportive). The ninja is very effective, it just doesn't like to play with others. So you hide everywhere and your teammates can't find you until you decide they should. If they tick you off then poison them with a needle or two at night. Or you just strike and hide again. You can take them down way before they can find you.

But OOC talks are definately a priority over the rebuild character thing. Maybe you want to talk to each person individually and win them to your side without them gaining support from their comrades.

aboyd

2008-11-09, 02:15 AM

My DM decided to F with me by making every dungeon we went into like pitch black but everyone else had lowlight vision or darkvision except me. Nearly the entire thing involved me trying to see in one way or another.
There are 3 "levels" of darkness in D&D 3.5, which is what I assume you're all playing (since this board is pretty heavily skewed in favor of that). They are:

bright light - daylight, light spells, torches (small radius of brightness, but bright nonetheless)
low-light - shadows, nighttime with a moon & stars, and as a transitional shade between bright torch light and darkness
total darkness - an area with no light or 99% absence of light. An enclosed, unlit dungeon qualifies

So that's a reasonable thing for the DM to do. In a game called "Dungeons & Dragons," exploring dungeons is expected. And it's fair for them to be dark. Other parties would normally have extensive lighting supplies -- torches, lanterns, everburning torches, light spells, glowing orb spells, etc.

Having said that, you should note that "everyone else had lowlight vision or darkvision" does not mean the low-light characters have a get-out-of-jail-free card. The darkvision characters do. But if you review the rules on low-light, it's surprising. It doesn't do what you think it does. Some people think it just "upgrades darkness." So they think someone with low-light vision sees in low-light conditions as well as if it were daylight. That's not true. It turns out if you read page 164 of the PHB, low-light vision needs torches too. There are two things that indicate this. First:

Dwarves and half-orcs have darkvision, but everyone else needs light to see by.

Note that low-light characters were not exempted. And then this:

Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius.
The "given radius" is referring to the table of light sources on page 165. In other words, amazingly, a character with low-light vision suffers the same penalties for low-light as a human. AND suffers just as badly as humans in areas of total darkness. The only difference is that a torch (or light spells) will have an increased radius of bright light & low light for a character with low-light vision. Thus, those characters need light sources too.

If you really wanted to screw with them, you could cast darkvision (the spell) on yourself, extinguish your light sources, and then ask the low-lighters how smug they feel bumping into walls.

aboyd

2008-11-09, 02:22 AM

This being understood, in a group such as this, the "Neutral" alignment would fit you well. Make it clear that you are playing such a character as one who acts appropriately to what they receive. If people are kind to them, they will be kind. If people are cruel to them, well, you better believe some sort of... recompense, would be decided upon (Without necessarily telling the others right away).
Yes, actually, the lawful neutral alignment is not a "do-gooder" alignment. Such as character would not "have to take it" when being mistreated. In fact, due to the "lawful" part of the alignment, if his own players turned against him and lowered him into an unknown environment, I would say that's so heavily chaotic that a lawful player would be pretty uncomfortable with the breakdown of order -- including other lawfuls that were watching.

I would probably go one further. It's true that action dictates alignment. So as a DM, if I see them grappling their own party member and lowering him into a hole against his will, I'd have to consider that behavior to be at least chaotic, and probably evil too. It could have meant your death. So willful murder of an ally means those OTHER characters were probably looking at alignment shifts of their own. I might not demand they all turn chaotic evil immediately, but I would shift them a step or two in that direction.

Although, you've got to be careful not to go overboard, as that kind of behaviour pretty quickly can turn evil.
Note that a neutral character shouldn't have a problem dipping into the evil side of the pool one in a while, if justified. At least, I'd allow it in my games. I play a true neutral cleric in one game, and while he defaulted to healing spells and such, every now & then he would dip into the inflict spells, and once he decided to cast animate dead. Everyone was like, "Woah! That's an evil spell!" And I said, "Yeah, so? My guy has done so much good lately he's feeling his neutrality tug him in the other direction. Besides, his reasoning is sound." They all agreed it was fair -- some had just forgotten that he was neutral. It's easy to assume neutral characters are really "good" if they never shake things up. But neutral is not good. Neutral is "if it's justified, I'll consider it."

And I would suggest playing a ninja type of character or a powerhouse (druid, wizard, and cleric are all good.
If we're suggesting builds that might help him with a slightly hostile group, I would suggest the wizard with Arcane Jaunt from PHB 2. That allows teleportation as an immediate action (immediate actions can interrupt other player's turns). So if the players say, "we grapple him to tie him up and lower him into a hole," the player can say, "the instant before the grapple completes, I use abrupt jaunt to teleport away and flee. Sorry guys, the wizard just left you high & dry."

Of course, he said he didn't like spellcasters. So nevermind. :)

Surgoshan

2008-11-09, 02:48 AM

The reason people keep suggesting that you find a new group is that you should find a new group. These guys have gone out of their way to make the game unfun for you. They've abused the rules and your ignorance of them so as to make you a target. They've been hazing you because you're the newb. That's really not cool. Unless you live in a tiny little town, there are other groups out there. Try googling. Try meetup (http://dnd.meetup.com/). Try finding a local game store. There are ways to find other groups, and you'll find that, even if they're infected with min/maxers, they'll still be open to new players and more than willing to help you learn and help you have a good time.

Gaming is just like any other part of life; don't put up with *****.

Curmudgeon

2008-11-09, 07:42 AM

If you want a fun battle cleric, try making a Divine Metamagic Build.

1. Extra Turning (x2, one is from Undeath), Extend Spell(Bonus from Planning), Persistent Spell(human bonus)
3. Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell
You don't need Extra Turning twice. The basic number of turn attempts is 3 + Charisma modifier, and Extra Turning adds 4. You only need 7 turn attempts to power Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), so a Charisma of 10 is adequate. Take Persistent Spell as your normal 1st level feat, and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) as your human bonus feat. Then at 1st level start persisting Divine Favor. When you get to 7th level you can persist Divine Power, and you're always ready for battle.

If you really want a battle Cleric, you're better off going Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) despite the seeming non-martial impediments (fewer hit points, poor BAB, only light armor proficiency). Divine Power takes care of the BAB issue. For the rest, Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) as your 3rd level feat is your equalizer, and Cloistered Clerics get all Knowledge skills, plus enough skill points to make these worthwhile. Knowledge Devotion gives attack and damage bonuses based on your check result on particular Knowledge skills: Arcana (constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Dungeoneering (aberrations, oozes)
Local (humanoids)
Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin)
Religion (undead)
The planes (outsiders, elementals)
If you make the Knowledge check when you first see a creature type, before combat starts, you can "take 10". A result of 16-25 gives +2, which is pretty much your guaranteed minimum combat bonus. You'll want to start out with an INT of 14 to maximize all 6 relevant Knowledge checks, plus Concentration, Spellcraft, and Spot (so you'll see things before combat).