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AgentPaper
2008-11-10, 04:18 PM
Ogre
Average Height: 8'10
Average Weight: 400‐600 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Large
Speed: 8 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate, +2 Endurance
Powerful Race: You do not gain a feat at levels 1, 4, 8 or 10.
Instead, you get +1 Strength and +1 Constitution at levels 4 and 8.
Large: As a large creature, you have the following traits:
You take up a 2 square x 2 square space.
You use large weapons and armor.
You have reach 2.
Ogre Smash: You can use ogre smash as an encounter power.

Ogre Smash................................Ogre Racial Power
You deliver a tremendous blow that knocks your
smaller foe to the ground.
Encounter ♦ Weapon
Standard Action .......... Melee weapon
Target: One Medium or smaller sized creature.
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and target is knocked prone.
Special: Increase to 2[W] at level 11, and 3[W] at level 21.

vartan
2008-11-10, 04:22 PM
I like the idea of the "Slow Learner" flaw, but other than that I'm not sure how 'balanced' this is

AgentPaper
2008-11-10, 04:38 PM
Another thing I should mention, what does Large size do for you? Are there rules for being larger, or should I make those up too? Wouldn't be hard, just use the exact opposite of the small rules.

RTGoodman
2008-11-10, 04:59 PM
Well, I don't like the penalties and bonuses bigger than +2 - I think the way 4E handles it (i.e., everyone just gets +2 to two, or +2 to any you want for humans) makes sure everything is balanced, and changing that could upset that.

That said, here's what the (Dragonlance campaign setting's) Races of Ansalon 4E conversion (http://www.dlnexus.com/fan/rules/20555.aspx) has for Ogre stats. Maybe you could use that for some inspiration (and to tell you what Large does for you).

Ogre
Average Height: 8'10
Average Weight: 400‐600 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Large
Speed: 7 squares
Vision: Low‐light
Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate
Large: As a large creature, you have the following traits:
You take up a 2 square x 2 square space.
You use large weapons and armor.
You have reach 2.
Ogre Smash: You can use ogre smash as an encounter
power.

Ogre Smash................................Ogre Racial Power
You deliver a tremendous blow that knocks your
smaller foe to the ground.
Encounter ♦ Weapon, Reliable
Standard Action .......... Melee weapon
Target: One Medium or smaller sized creature.
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and target is
pushed 1 square and knocked prone.

AgentPaper
2008-11-10, 05:18 PM
Yeah, one of the goals I have for this is setting the groundwork for having more than just +2 to two stats. If we can make a balanced ogre, it's not far off to make other monstrous creatures, and this could work as a good reference for what is balanced. (Assuming we get it balanced) I also like the Slow Learner idea, but I'm also afraid that loosing feats and such will mostly just accomplish making the character less interesting overall. Right now I'm trying to think of flaws that will add depth to the character, instead of removing it.

Nefarion Xid
2008-11-10, 05:34 PM
Best bet would be to take the Bugbear race (who's hardly balanced in the first place) and just rename it. There's just no fair way to balance out a +4 bonus to any ability score, especially Strength...that extra +2 is more equivalent to three feats anyway.

AgentPaper
2008-11-12, 12:18 PM
What if it was +2 str and +4 con? Con is less valuable than str. And I'll steal that power from the Drangonlance version, but edit it so it does 1[W] level 1-10, 2[W] level 11-20, and 3[W] level 21+. Makes it less super-powered at low levels. (knocking prone is really good) Reliable might also have to be removed. As is, that power is better than any fighter feat you can get until paragon tier or more.

Yakk
2008-11-12, 03:07 PM
Monster race thoughts... (ie, races that are far stronger/more impactful than the standard races)

1> Build them as a class you multi-class into. You auto-lose feats from the levels that multiclass classes use them.

2> Build them as a class you multi-class into a normal class out of.

Mando Knight
2008-11-12, 03:25 PM
What if it was +2 str and +4 con? Con is less valuable than str.

Infernal Warlock. 20 Con for the price of 16. End of story.

RTGoodman
2008-11-12, 03:31 PM
Monster race thoughts... (ie, races that are far stronger/more impactful than the standard races)

1> Build them as a class you multi-class into. You auto-lose feats from the levels that multiclass classes use them.

2> Build them as a class you multi-class into a normal class out of.


Man, Yakk, you're a genius. That seems like a really good solution. Just start 'em with +2 Str/Con, and then as an 8th or 10th level feat (that requires to have several other "racial multiclass" feats) you could throw on another +2 to one of the two.

Shadow_Elf
2008-11-12, 04:14 PM
I like how 4e did away with LA. I hope it doesnt make a comeback.

That being said, I like the Racial MC idea.

AgentPaper
2008-11-12, 06:24 PM
Ogre
Average Height: 8'10
Average Weight: 400‐600 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Large
Speed: 8 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate, +2 Endurance
Powerful Race: You do not gain a feat at levels 1, 4, 8 or 10.
Instead, you get +1 Strength and +1 Constitution at levels 4 and 8.
Large: As a large creature, you have the following traits:
You take up a 2 square x 2 square space.
You use large weapons and armor.
You have reach 2.
Ogre Smash: You can use ogre smash as an encounter power.

Ogre Smash................................Ogre Racial Power
You deliver a tremendous blow that knocks your
smaller foe to the ground.
Encounter ♦ Weapon
Standard Action .......... Melee weapon
Target: One Medium or smaller sized creature.
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and target is knocked prone.
Special: Increase to 2[W] at level 11, and 3[W] at level 21.


How does this look now? You loose 4 feats, but get 4 stats. You also have to wait a bit for those stats, so it's less huge an impact as just getting them. You're also large, though, so that should offset the lack of a feat for early levels. Also, you only get 2 feats before paragon, not nearly enough to multiclass.

AgentPaper
2008-11-13, 03:38 PM
So, any idea if this is balanced or not? Seems like it is to me, but I'm not sure. Should I have -2 to int and/or wis? That doesn't seem necessary anymore, but who knows. If anything, it seems like I should remove one of the lost feats, probably the first one. Having a bonus to str and con, which are in the same defense block, doesn't seem worth 4 feats, to me. As is, you only get a grand total of 2 feats until you hit paragon.

Shadow_Elf
2008-11-13, 04:34 PM
Personally, I would spread out the bonuses and penalties more. Dont make the, unplayable at heroic.

AgentPaper
2008-11-13, 04:40 PM
Well, it's supposed to mirror multiclassing. Some bonus at level 10 would be nice, but I don't know what it would be. You get large size at level 1, +stats at 4 and 8, but nothing at 10. Then again, the lack of a bonus there could make up for the stat bonuses being so powerful.

If someone could playtest this, that would be perfect.

Yakk
2008-11-13, 05:21 PM
Large all by itself might be too good. Hmm.

AgentPaper
2008-11-13, 05:44 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking either remove reach, or add some penalty, like to reflex and AC. Maybe -2?

Zocelot
2008-11-13, 07:16 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking either remove reach, or add some penalty, like to reflex and AC. Maybe -2?

Either way you're butchering the original concept. Getting rid of reach doesn't make sense, and reach is a key benefit of being large. Giving big bonuses and penalties means that the race will be used for optimization in classes that benefit from it's benefits, while classes that need AC and reflex will stay away from it like the plague.

AgentPaper
2008-11-13, 08:32 PM
Well, people who need Str and Con are melee classes, which are by definition close to enemies. So, they need AC. Reflex is also helpful up there.

AgentPaper
2009-03-05, 05:36 AM
Now that 4E has been out for a while, I want to re-visit this and see if I can make this balanced, since I doubt it is yet. I'm not sure where to go for now, but what does everyone think of letting players use this? Any specific ways this can be broken?

First off, I think I'm going to reduce the speed to 7, and might further reduce it to 6, since ogres are supposed to be slow and clumsy.

(And if this counts a thread necromancing, I apologize. Wasn't sure if I should make a new thread for this or not)

Tiki Snakes
2009-03-05, 01:31 PM
Well, having had a quick scan over the mm, I really don't see that Ogre makes an appropriate player race, frankly. The smartest of them has an int of 4, after all.

That and they lack any justifyable racial powers. They really are the archetypal big, dumb brute.

Still, if you do want to continue giving it a shot anyway, I'd say that balance is both important and over-rated. Let them be Large sized, give them some bonus to strength and con, and a smaller penalty to int and cha. I wouldn't let them have a racial power, really, because it's just not justified. if they are already getting +4 to two stats, even with -2's to a couple of others, they already have some unfair advantages. I really wouldn't take away feats though, that's just kind of punitive.

Also, Ogre's do not HAVE reach in 4th ed, that I can see, though they do universally have a speed of 8.