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Studoku
2008-11-11, 08:52 PM
This idea was formed from a discussion in my D&D group, about keeping a halfling in a bag of holding for longer than the 10 minutes of air would allow. This lead to keeping plants in the bag to provide oxygen, which lead to animals to provide CO2 for the plants. I thought the idea of carrying a small ecosytem in a bag was pretty cool, especially if that ecosystem was large enough to support carnivores.

I'd like to use this idea for my next character and I'm looking for suggestions as to how to accomplish this.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-11, 08:53 PM
Cast genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) into the bag of holding?

Ravens_cry
2008-11-11, 09:09 PM
Cast genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) into the bag of holding?

This spell cannot create life (including vegetation)
A Bag of Holding already IS a demiplane, so all genesis would do would be to possibly enlarge it. Also, you will need a source of energy for the plants. The daylight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Daylight.htm) spell might do so, though since it doesn't affect Vampires and creatures with similar weaknesses, it is debatable. Still, if I was DM, I would allow it.
I think there is an item that provides fresh air though, so just sticking one of those in their would probably be easier.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-11, 09:14 PM
A Bag of Holding already IS a demiplane, so all genesis would do would be to possibly enlarge it. Also, you will need a source of energy for the plants. The daylight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Daylight.htm) spell might do so, though since it doesn't affect Vampires and creatures with similar weaknesses, it is debatable. Still, if I was DM, I would allow it.
I think there is an item that provides fresh air though, so just sticking one of those in their would probably be easier.

Ooh. Bottle of air and a permanencied daylight spell. Maybe some sort of contingent darkness too, to suppress the daylight every 12 hours for12 hours to provide night and day.

Studoku
2008-11-11, 09:19 PM
A Bag of Holding already IS a demiplane, so all genesis would do would be to possibly enlarge it. Also, you will need a source of energy for the plants. The daylight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Daylight.htm) spell might do so, though since it doesn't affect Vampires and creatures with similar weaknesses, it is debatable. Still, if I was DM, I would allow it.
Since plants in the real world can be grown using artificial light, it should work.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-11, 09:20 PM
Ooh. Bottle of air and a permanencied daylight spell. Maybe some sort of contingent darkness too, to suppress the daylight every 12 hours for12 hours to provide night and day.
Hehe, it's good to kill cat girls.
Or does biology kill something different?

Copacetic
2008-11-11, 09:25 PM
Even better: Make them Vampire plants. No need for sunlight, and they can feed off the Animals.

Collin152
2008-11-11, 09:29 PM
Hehe, it's good to kill cat girls.
Or does biology kill something different?

Since physics kills catgirls, which are bilogical, it only makes sense for biology to kill black holes.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-11, 09:30 PM
Even better: Make them Vampire plants. No need for sunlight, and they can feed off the Animals. Yeah, but what do the animals eat? The plants? That is a thermodynamically untenable situation. Besides, the whole reason for the bag o' holding terrarium, is to hold the people inside indefinitely. You don't want your oxygen supply feeding on your passengers, do you?

Funkyodor
2008-11-11, 09:41 PM
Or just give the halfling an necklace of adaptation so hes always got fresh air to breathe.

elliott20
2008-11-11, 09:58 PM
funkyodor, they COULD do that, but that would be too easy and far less fun!

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-11, 11:00 PM
First, you need to go with a Portable Hole. The largest BoH is only ~7x7x5. Not big enough for a real ecosystem. I'd see if you can increase the cost to increase the size. 900 cubic feet is nice, but really, an ecosystem requires more if you don't want to be re-introducing plants every few days.

Cybren
2008-11-11, 11:11 PM
it's taken THIS LONG for a Bag Wars post?

elliott20
2008-11-11, 11:15 PM
how about if you just grow some fungus in there something? technically it would be an ecosystem.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-11, 11:58 PM
how about if you just grow some fungus in there something? technically it would be an ecosystem.
Fungus don't make oxygen, and need a something dead to break down. Seriously, they are more like land based sponges then plants. I read in Discover magazine that on the GENETIC level, fungus are more like animals then plants. They would be important in any ecosystem, but they can't do the whole job. When I said terrarium, I was half joking, but actually, that is what this is, a terrarium with its own light source, and they can be quite small. Google them up for some ideas on designing this place.

Bayar
2008-11-12, 12:22 AM
This reminds me of the "There is a town in one of my PC's tummy" thread. That was WIN.

You could always stick the corpses of your victims enemies in there and put some fungus to degrade it...

It would actually be a really good deathtrap for gnomes !

"Hey look ! I got a whole ecosystem in my BoH ! Wanna check it out ? *bluff check optional*

Gnome: Sure !

5 minutes later: Cant breathe, air filled with spores..."

Fishy
2008-11-12, 12:27 AM
It's actually been done (http://www.eco-sphere.com/home.htm), minus the bag of holding. Still needs a light source, though, and I don't think they live forever.

Harp
2008-11-12, 12:54 AM
This might be more feasible if the character could create or discover an existing pocket plane. I vaguely recall something about gray circle druids from a FR campaign I played in, but it might have been non-canon. I'm not familiar enough with the setting to know, but I think pocket planes are universal in most campaigns anyhow.

Alternatively, Flesh to Stone and Stone to Flesh are win for hiding people in bags of holding and portable holes indefinately, assuming you've got a wizard or someone who can use the scrolls.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-11-12, 01:02 AM
This idea was formed from a discussion in my D&D group, about keeping a halfling in a bag of holding for longer than the 10 minutes of air would allow. This lead to keeping plants in the bag to provide oxygen, which lead to animals to provide CO2 for the plants. I thought the idea of carrying a small ecosytem in a bag was pretty cool, especially if that ecosystem was large enough to support carnivores.

I'd like to use this idea for my next character and I'm looking for suggestions as to how to accomplish this.

Plants produce a net of approximately +/-0 carbon dioxide, because they release carbon dioxide during the night and when they rot. Even while active, I really doubt the filtration is anywhere near 100% oxygen returned. (Edit: And I really doubt people exhale as much oxygen in carbon dioxide as they inhaled, for that matter.)

As Ravens cry points out, you're basically fighting the second law of thermodynamics here. You're trying to make a closed system inside the bag of holding (closed systems can actually exist when you've got magic), but you can't sustain one of those, on account of entropy.

So sorry, but no. Go with the necklace of adaptation (or the appropriate ioun stone) instead, if you really want to keep people inside extradimensional spaces.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 01:40 AM
Well, with a magic light source providing energy (like the ones already mentioned) it might be possible, though you would need to really expand the bag of holding extradimensional if your going to produce enough net oxygen for even just a halfling. It technically isn't a closed system with a light source. There must be a way to rig it so you get net oxygen, as on Starship Earth, because without it, we 02 breathing animals wouldn't survive.

NASA is doing some similar experiments (http://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications/newsletters/lpib/lpib85/plants.html), though without the bag of holding.

kbk
2008-11-12, 02:40 AM
We once used a necklace of adaptation to keep a minotaur in a portable hole. We were found of saying "I choose you, minotaur of doom"

Then we forgot about him for a month, and the necklace of adaptation ran out of air.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-12, 02:44 AM
We once used a necklace of adaptation to keep a minotaur in a portable hole. We were found of saying "I choose you, minotaur of doom"

Then we forgot about him for a month, and the necklace of adaptation ran out of air.There's nothing quite like being able to drop a Gelatinous Cube in your path to slow pursuers.

Maryring
2008-11-12, 03:09 AM
This reminds me of the "There is a town in one of my PC's tummy" thread. That was WIN.
That... I'd like to see.

Also, you're gonna need a Decanter of Endless Water in there too, well, either that or lots of Create Water spells. Using Genesis to increase the size of the demi-plane helps a lot as well.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 03:17 AM
That... I'd like to see.

Also, you're gonna need a Decanter of Endless Water in there too, well, either that or lots of Create Water spells. Using Genesis to increase the size of the demi-plane helps a lot as well.
Unless you keep the bag of holding the whole time, once you have the initial water supply, (if done right) you only need to add more water at very irregular intervals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_ecological_system

Maryring
2008-11-12, 03:28 AM
Yes, but you need to get some water in there to begin with. :smalltongue:

Bayar
2008-11-12, 03:32 AM
That... I'd like to see.

Also, you're gonna need a Decanter of Endless Water in there too, well, either that or lots of Create Water spells. Using Genesis to increase the size of the demi-plane helps a lot as well.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94358

It was actually an island. In one of the PC's tummy. And the other PC's are trying to found a city on it.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 03:35 AM
Yes, but you need to get some water in there to begin with. :smalltongue:
Do rivers exist on your planet? Not everything has to be solved with magic, especially when it can be done cheaper without.

Maryring
2008-11-12, 03:51 AM
Yes, you can put it in a river, but that's not half as fun as a Decanter of Endless Water.

JeminiZero
2008-11-12, 04:19 AM
It might be easier if you use a bunch of everburning torches as your light source.

Once you have that, supporting the halfling may be actually be possible if you consider the following:
1) In a typical ecosystem, amount of oxygen generated is limited by the fact light comes from only one direction. So although a tree has many leaves, only the top few are most productive.
2) Light is only available half the time.

A tree in the BoH with multiple light sources from all over via many EB torches, will recieve much more net light than a typical tree in the forest. It also recieves a continuous supply of light 24 hours a day. I don't have any hard numbers, but a EB torch filled forest in a fair size BoH might be able to generate enough oxygen to support a Halfling.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-12, 04:21 AM
It might be easier if you use a bunch of everburning torches as your light source.

Once you have that, supporting the halfling may be actually be possible if you consider the following:
1) In a typical ecosystem, amount of oxygen generated is limited by the fact light comes from only one direction. So although a tree has many leaves, only the top few are most productive.
2) Light is only available half the time.

A tree in the BoH with multiple light sources from all over via many EB torches, will recieve much more net light than a typical tree in the forest. It also recieves a continuous supply of light 24 hours a day. I don't have any hard numbers, but a EB torch filled forest in a fair size BoH might be able to generate enough oxygen to support a Halfling.Is a terrestial system the best option? I'd think it would be easier to balance an aquatic system.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 04:37 AM
Is a terrestial system the best option? I'd think it would be easier to balance an aquatic system. Probably, but that would mean you would still need a way of keeping your passengers alive who don't have gills. Otherwise it's back to a helm of underwater action or necklace of adaptation or some other method.

If your going just for an ecosystem in a bag of holding, sure. But that isn't what the OP is looking for, I believe.

Maryring
2008-11-12, 05:26 AM
It might be easier if you use a bunch of everburning torches as your light source.

Once you have that, supporting the halfling may be actually be possible if you consider the following:
1) In a typical ecosystem, amount of oxygen generated is limited by the fact light comes from only one direction. So although a tree has many leaves, only the top few are most productive.
2) Light is only available half the time.

A tree in the BoH with multiple light sources from all over via many EB torches, will recieve much more net light than a typical tree in the forest. It also recieves a continuous supply of light 24 hours a day. I don't have any hard numbers, but a EB torch filled forest in a fair size BoH might be able to generate enough oxygen to support a Halfling.

That could work if you have enough of em yes. However continual flame only illuminates half the area of a Daylight spell...

But if you modify a Continual Flame... and put it into the sky you could actually create a real mini-sun.

This is a fun thought experiment.

Drakefall
2008-11-12, 05:40 AM
Perhaps one could simply chuck an entire green house, complete with construct gardener to maintain it, into a bag of holding? Add a day/night cycle via whatever means you wish and voila: A bag of holding you can hide in for extended periods of time.

Bayar
2008-11-12, 07:45 AM
I just thought of a perfect solution. A construct inhabited BoH. And what better way for the artificier to kill some time and make some magic items than to enter his trusty bag, and create stuff, accompanied with all those constructs ? Sure, he still needs a necklace of adaptation to breathe, but he is an Artificier after all...

Brother Oni
2008-11-12, 07:51 AM
Plants produce a net of approximately +/-0 carbon dioxide, because they release carbon dioxide during the night and when they rot.

Only if they're fully grown or unable to grow any further. If they're growing, then the carbon will be fixed into the plant's new growth, ending up with a net oxygen imbalance.



As Ravens cry points out, you're basically fighting the second law of thermodynamics here. You're trying to make a closed system inside the bag of holding (closed systems can actually exist when you've got magic), but you can't sustain one of those, on account of entropy.


Agreed, but with the addition of a permanent light source, you're continually introducing energy into the system, thus the system can be sustained.

One point though - I'm not too familiar with bags of holding or how they work, but with all the heat energy being generated by the living organisms, if it were a closed system, wouldn't the ambient temperature in the bag start rising?

Bayar
2008-11-12, 07:52 AM
Only if they're fully grown or unable to grow any further. If they're growing, then the carbon will be fixed into the plant's new growth, ending up with a net oxygen imbalance.



Agreed, but with the addition of a permanent light source, you're continually introducing energy into the system, thus the system can be sustained.

One point though - I'm not too familiar with bags of holding or how they work, but with all the heat energy being generated by the living organisms, if it were a closed system, wouldn't the ambient temperature in the bag start rising?

It is a demiplane.

Oh, and I remembered the feather token (i think). The one that can create a tree in 1 round...

Irreverent Fool
2008-11-12, 08:06 AM
I don't think a bag of holding is large enough to create an ecosystem to sustain a medium sized creature indefinitely without some continuous external input.

On the other hand, a bag of holding isn't possible either and magic doesn't work so the above statement shouldn't matter.

I like the genesis idea, but if you've got epic magic it really doesn't matter any more. In fact, creating a bag of holding with a small ecosystem capable of supporting creatures is probably a lower DC than genesis.

The idea involving bottles of air and decanters of endless water seems like a good place to start. You'd need an outlet for the water if you want there to be any sort of body of water (a small pool or whatever), so you could place a bag of devouring there to make sure the water level stays appropriate. By RAW nothing bad happens for placing a bag of devouring inside a bag of holding.
obnoxious
sig

Tsotha-lanti
2008-11-12, 11:33 AM
Good points about the magical light - so with magic, you can have closed systems that aren't closed, and you really can violate the second law of thermodynamics. This should have been obvious, in retrospect. Duhhhh.


One point though - I'm not too familiar with bags of holding or how they work, but with all the heat energy being generated by the living organisms, if it were a closed system, wouldn't the ambient temperature in the bag start rising?

Interesting question. The heat's got nowhere to go, does it?

Fax Celestis
2008-11-12, 11:41 AM
I don't think a bag of holding is large enough to create an ecosystem to sustain a medium sized creature indefinitely without some continuous external input.

On the other hand, a bag of holding isn't possible either and magic doesn't work so the above statement shouldn't matter.

I like the genesis idea, but if you've got epic magic it really doesn't matter any more. In fact, creating a bag of holding with a small ecosystem capable of supporting creatures is probably a lower DC than genesis.

The idea involving bottles of air and decanters of endless water seems like a good place to start. You'd need an outlet for the water if you want there to be any sort of body of water (a small pool or whatever), so you could place a bag of devouring there to make sure the water level stays appropriate. By RAW nothing bad happens for placing a bag of devouring inside a bag of holding.
obnoxious
sig

Genesis is Sor/Wiz 9, not Epic.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 04:25 PM
Good points about the magical light - so with magic, you can have closed systems that aren't closed, and you really can violate the second law of thermodynamics. This should have been obvious, in retrospect. Duhhhh.



Interesting question. The heat's got nowhere to go, does it?
If your providing a continual source of water that pours eventually into a bag of devouring, the water would absorb the heat, and flow it to elsewhere. This would be most effective during the night cycle.

hewhosaysfish
2008-11-12, 05:02 PM
Probably, but that would mean you would still need a way of keeping your passengers alive who don't have gills. Otherwise it's back to a helm of underwater action or necklace of adaptation or some other method.

If you didn't fill the whole bag and instead left some sort of air-gap above the surface of the water then your passengers could survive. Just make sure they can swim or take some sort of raft in with them.

Kami2awa
2008-11-12, 05:47 PM
Hehe, it's good to kill cat girls.
Or does biology kill something different?

It kills Schrodinger's Cat... perhaps.

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 05:48 PM
I think we can make this work.

Soil
Starting with soil, we could acquire that, and put it in there OR just take every corpse of the numerous enemies we defeat and put them in there, along with a bunch of detrivores (animals that would decay the bodies).

Oxygen/Nitrogen Atmosphere
Probably the easiest to get initially, but hard to renew once the plants/animals turn it into carbon dioxide with a good ratio. An optimum ratio for plants to animals by weight would be 20:1 (I'm estimating here).

Plants
Easy to take care of once we have soil, and air, because when they die and break down, they create soil themselves, and also as long as they live, they create new plants (seeds etc.). Most likely the hardest thing about plants is getting some source of energy, like our next point:

A Sun-Like Source of Heat/Light Energy
Hardest thing to do, but easy with magic! Suggestions people? A high temperature creating source would be great, around 303 Kelvin.

Water
Tricky, but not impossible. With a sun-like source able to evaporate water for rain, or at least condensation, the water would be sort of cleaned that way, because a great amount of the contaminants are left behind during evaporation.

I'm starting to see this work, almost. Lets do this! Suggestions are welcome!

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 05:55 PM
Where do you live that 303 k is high temperture source? Pluto?
Though it is about the right temperature you want the air to be.
The biggest problem I see is keeping it from getting too hot.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-11-12, 06:06 PM
I think a permanent Daylight spell would be best- make it in trap form and set the duration/reload to 12 hours each. More if you want summer. Then just set it to go off as soon as it resets.

If twelve hour duration daylights aren`t doable, get a bunch of shorter duration ones and set them up in the sky going from east to west and have them go off one after another.

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 06:08 PM
Where do you live that 303 k is high temperture source? Pluto?
Though it is about the right temperature you want the air to be.
The biggest problem I see is keeping it from getting too hot.

Oh dear, 303 K is what I meant I want the air to be. The source temperature varies depending on what we want the distance to be from the surface of our place.

EDIT:


I think a permanent Daylight spell would be best- make it in trap form and set the duration/reload to 12 hours each. More if you want summer. Then just set it to go off as soon as it resets.

If twelve hour duration daylights aren`t doable, get a bunch of shorter duration ones and set them up in the sky going from east to west and have them go off one after another.

The longest day of the year is approx. 15 hours long, and the shortest is around 9 hours.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 06:34 PM
Oh dear, 303 K is what I meant I want the air to be. The source temperature varies depending on what we want the distance to be from the surface of our place.

EDIT:



The longest day of the year is approx. 15 hours long, and the shortest is around 9 hours.
Oh dear, 303 K is what I meant I want the air to be. The source temperature varies depending on what we want the distance to be from the surface of our place.
Yes of course. I thought that was what you meant. However, since this is a bag of holding, the temperture control problem is even more difficult then say as on space station, as there is nowhere to dump the waste heat. It will just keep building up.

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 06:43 PM
Yes of course. I thought that was what you meant. However, since this is a bag of holding, the temperture control problem is even more difficult then say as on space station, as there is nowhere to dump the waste heat. It will just keep building up.

Hmmm, I totally forgot about the temperature control, I was thinking more along of that genesis spell. For a solution to that problem though, maybe we could harvest the excess heat, for example, we could invent some machine that when the temperature got too high, it could absorb it into some type of magical heat sink, in the form of some jewel, or rock, or the like, for future use by the characters potentially. Any ideas anyone?

EDIT: For that matter, does anyone have any problems with the plan laid out previous plan?

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 07:19 PM
A researched magical heat exchanger that transfers the heat to the elemental plane of water?
More RAW would be the already mentioned Endless decanter/bag of swallowing combination. I am thinking wide low 'river flowing through the center of the mini plane, flowing through from aformentioned decanter to bag, picking up excess heat as it goes.
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/6463/bagofholdingecosystemuk7.gif (http://imageshack.us)
The yellow blobs are the daylight spells, the blue stuff is water, with the bag of devouring the bottom, and the endless decanter at the top. The green stuff is vegetation, and the yellow stuff with specks are a small beach to put your passengers. Not to scale.
You could put more daylight spells underneath the cover so that those leaves produce oxygen as well.

phoenixcire
2008-11-12, 07:46 PM
The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. Would an endless decanter/devouring bag really be necessary?

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 07:57 PM
The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. Would an endless decanter/devouring bag really be necessary?

The spellcaster of what?

Also, if the place was big enough, we could avoid the water, but I think it's a good idea. The thing is, water doesn't flow uphill, so once the water gets from point a to b by flowing downstream, it will not go back up, into a loop. If we had enough room, the water could evaporate and flow down from mountains or the like, but I don't think we have that much.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 08:00 PM
The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. Would an endless decanter/devouring bag really be necessary?
Yes, because while the wizard may set the initial conditions, if your going to produce oxygen from plants, you need a source of energy. The daylight spell provides that energy, but photosynthesis isn't 100% efficient. This waste heat would build up in the demiplane, because there is nowhere for the heat to escape to. Its worse then inside a tin can in a vacuum, because at least heat can escape through infrared radiation from the outside of the can. On a demiplane there is no outside, only elsewhere.

edit:I disagree Greengiant. No matter how big you make it, that heat is going to build up in a greenhouse effect, only worse. Eventually the inside would be like Venus.
A little mud to stone for the river bed, and a little altered terrain to slightly raise the section that has the decanter.

JeminiZero
2008-11-12, 08:10 PM
The daylight spell provides that energy, but photosynthesis isn't 100% efficient. This waste heat would build up in the demiplane, because there is nowhere for the heat to escape to.


Temperature control is not that difficult, just get a bunch of permanancied Chill Metal objects to soak up heat. For bonus points, set them up as a heat sensitive trap, so that they go off when ambient temperature goes above a certain level.

Do the same with heat metal objects, but with a low temperature trap trigger and you have an self regulating temperature system.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-11-12, 08:11 PM
I think with demiplanes we can assume that either there's some dissipation / leaking, or else "magic handles it." All planes, really, because otherwise all non-Prime Material planes would suffer incredible greenhouse effects, surely.

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 08:16 PM
Yes... *SNIP*

Ahhh, I understand now, yes I see. I was thinking of my situation I was trying to replicate, Earth. I missed one crucial fact, heat radiation from Earth. Your model I is think most workable one at this time. For aesthetic reasons, I'd like it to be a shore though, so it has the illusion of being a real place, almost like in the movie The Truman Show. In the movie the "ocean" only goes out for so far, and then it's a painted wall. An Island on a fake sea. The endless water could be facing one way, and the place where the water goes in could be in the same place, but facing the other way, so the water flows around the island in a current before going into the bottomless bag.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 08:18 PM
Temperature control is not that difficult, just get a bunch of permanancied Chill Metal objects to soak up heat. For bonus points, set them up as a heat sensitive trap, so that they go off when ambient temperature goes above a certain level.

Do the same with heat metal objects, but with a low temperature trap trigger and you have an self regulating temperature system.
I didn't say it was difficult, just needed.


I think with demiplanes we can assume that either there's some dissipation / leaking, or else "magic handles it." All planes, really, because otherwise all non-Prime Material planes would suffer incredible greenhouse effects, surely.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that magic comes by default with every demiplane.
We are slaughtering cat girls here. 'Magic handles it' it not an acceptable answer:smalltongue:.

[edit]
Greengiant: the ocean/shore would be better technically as well, because you wouldn't have to keep the ocean 'lit' meaning that it wouldn't be heated by the sunlight spells as it drains into the consuming bag. The heat would flow from the warm area to the cool area, be absorbed by the water, and that water would then flow into the bag. New water would be of course be proved by decanters set into the shore.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-11-12, 08:25 PM
We are slaughtering cat girls here. 'Magic handles it' it not an acceptable answer:smalltongue:.

But then whatever hypothesis you formulate for the bag of holding must also explain why other planes do not suffer a deadly greenhouse effect.

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 08:29 PM
One thing to remember, the spell Daylight does not give off any heat.

Daylight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Daylight.htm)

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 08:30 PM
But then whatever hypothesis you formulate for the bag of holding must also explain why other planes do not suffer a deadly greenhouse effect.
Similar methods to those mentioned could be used for other planes. They just haven't been mentioned. That could be what the River Styx is for in the Abyss. Also some planes are infinite, therefore have an infinite area to dissipate waste heat.

One thing to remember, the spell Daylight does not give off any heat.

Daylight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Daylight.htm)
All right, but the living things using that energy do. Still, that means you can keep the place fully lit, adding to the illusion.

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 08:32 PM
Similar methods to those mentioned could be used for other planes. They just haven't been mentioned. That could be what the River Styx is for in the Abyss. Also some planes are infinite, therefore have an infinite area to dissipate waste heat.

Haha let's not get into a discussion about infinity, I remember the last thread that talked about infinity totally dragged it into another thread. Something about the infinite ale realm being torn and emptying into another infinite plane...

EDIT:
Also, we could just have one enlarged daylight spell that moves across from one shore to the other side of the island, and over the course of a year, it zig zags back and forth to equally cover the whole island. This could act as a sun, instead of having more than one spell. Also, maybe just for accuracy in relativity to the material plane, we could have a heat spell in the same place as the daylight spell, that moves with it.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 08:36 PM
Haha let's not get into a discussion about infinity, I remember the last thread that talked about infinity totally dragged it into another thread. Something about the infinite ale realm being torn and emptying into another infinite plane...
Vulcans honour then. No talking about infinity. :smallsmile:

Collin152
2008-11-12, 08:38 PM
Vulcans honour then. No talking about infinity. :smallsmile:

But what happens when an infinite plane is suddenly within a finite plane?
Obviously the finite plane is completley consumed by the infinite plane, but there's still infinite plane left to be filled with!

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 08:39 PM
All right, but the living things using that energy do. Still, that means you can keep the place fully lit, adding to the illusion.

Oh dear, I think this changes our assumptions about photosynthesis being able to use the Daylight light. Because it doesn't give off any heat, or anything, I think this spell might just be an illusion, and won't work for most things that would normally be affected by sunlight. Also, if this is true disbelieving in our daylight spell would put you in a realm with no light. Drat!

Okay! New ways of lighting the place, and supporting the plants!


But what happens when an infinite plane is suddenly within a finite plane?
Obviously the finite plane is completley consumed by the infinite plane, but there's still infinite plane left to be filled with!

You there, be quiet.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 08:43 PM
Oh dear, I think this changes our assumptions about photosynthesis being able to use the Daylight light. Because it doesn't give off any heat, or anything, I think this spell might just be an illusion, and won't work for most things that would normally be affected by sunlight. Also, if this is true disbelieving in our daylight spell would put you in a realm with no light. Drat!

Okay! New ways of lighting the place, and supporting the plants!



You there, be quiet.
I mean the illusion you are on an island on the material plane. Not 'illusion' in any magical sense of the word.

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 08:45 PM
I mean the illusion you are on an island on the material plane. Not 'illusion' in any magical sense of the word.

What I want to know exactly is does the spell give off Light Energy, or the illusion of light. One will work for photosynthesis, one will not.

"The object touched sheds light as bright as full daylight". Sounds like real light energy to me.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 08:53 PM
What I want to know exactly is does the spell give off Light Energy, or the illusion of light. One will work for photosynthesis, one will not.



It is an Evocation school spell. To me that says that it's real energy.


Evocation
Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage.

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 08:55 PM
It is an Evocation school spell. To me that says that it's real energy.

Well then effectively, we're all set. Do you see any flaws? I don't.

Gralamin
2008-11-12, 08:56 PM
Daylight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Daylight.htm) is not an Illusion spell, and thus not an illusion. It is Evocation[Light].


Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage.

Since Light is a descriptor, its reasonable to conclude that it creates Light Energy.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 08:59 PM
[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Daylight.htm]Daylight[url] is not an Illusion spell, and thus not an illusion. It is Evocation[Light].



Since Light is a descriptor, its reasonable to conclude that it creates Light Energy.
Now, it doesn't say it creates infrared EM in hurting amounts. BUT, it does say it creates the light energy of daylight. I would include the normal infrared content of of a beam of sunlight in that as well.
DM results may differ.

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 09:16 PM
So it's decided then, everything will work? Some things are DM dependant, but so is everything, so I wouldn't worry. Now everyone, get out there and start making ecosystems in your otherworldly planes!

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 09:48 PM
So it's decided then, everything will work? Some things are DM dependant, but so is everything, so I wouldn't worry. Now everyone, get out there and start making ecosystems in your otherworldly planes!
The biggest problem I see is how we are going to expand the bag of holding.
Genesis may or may not work.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-11-12, 10:00 PM
I suppose we could just expand the table for costs of bags of holding- they come in various sizes anyway.

Best part is, I was pondering how to do something like this for my raptor swordsage. How much will all this cost? Is it more expensive than, say, a permanent item of rope trick?

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 10:28 PM
I suppose we could just expand the table for costs of bags of holding- they come in various sizes anyway.

Best part is, I was pondering how to do something like this for my raptor swordsage. How much will all this cost? Is it more expensive than, say, a permanent item of rope trick?
Greengiant estimated about a 20/1 plant/animal ratio. Halflings weigh about 35 pounds. The biggest bag of holding on the list cost 10000 gp, and carries 1,500 pounds, weighs sixty is about 250 cu. ft.
A decanter of endless water costs 9000 gold.
A bag of devourings price isn't available, and can't be created, but there may be some other way. Buying them off of old adventurers, and unfortunates who run into one mayhap. Or you can pierce a bag of holding from the inside, that may have the same effect.
It looks as if daylight can't permanenced. And I don't think, unless you had a LOT of them an ever burning torch or similar effect would be bright enough.

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 10:30 PM
I suppose we could just expand the table for costs of bags of holding- they come in various sizes anyway.

Best part is, I was pondering how to do something like this for my raptor swordsage. How much will all this cost? Is it more expensive than, say, a permanent item of rope trick?

Well, killing the enemies to decompose into soil wont cost anything. Getting water won't cost anything. Air is free. Plants and stuff can be transplanted from the forest for free, the only costly things are the spells and magic items.

That's about it though. Let's put together the costs.
Enlarged Permanent Daylight
An enlarged spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spellís actual level. Since daylight can't be permanencied normally I'd rule about 1500 xp cost for permanency on daylight, because of its level.
Permanent Mage Hand
For lifting the item you cast Daylight on into the sky. Since mage hand can't be permanencied I'd rule 250 xp cost to permanency this, as it is a cantrip.
Endless Decanter
Market price of 9001 gold. (It's over nine thousand!)
Bag of Devouring
No market price. Somewhere between 12000 and 15000 I'd estimate, given it's cost's locale on the cursed item list.

That's about all I can think of.

EDIT: Changed some info.

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 10:37 PM
Greengiant estimated about a 20/1 plant/animal ratio. Halflings weigh about 35 pounds. The biggest bag of holding on the list cost 10000 gp, and carries 1,500 pounds, weighs sixty is about 250 cu. ft.
A decanter of endless water costs 9000 gold.
A bag of devourings price isn't available, and can't be created, but there may be some other way. Buying them off of old adventurers, and unfortunates who run into one mayhap. Or you can pierce a bag of holding from the inside, that may have the same effect.
It looks as if daylight can't permanenced. And I don't think, unless you had a LOT of them an ever burning torch or similar effect would be bright enough.

I don't know if piercing it will do what we need.

"If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever."

No, most definately not. :smalltongue:

EDIT:
It seems, because of the inability to permanancy the spells we need to fascilitate this, this whole realm will balance on the decision of your DM. That's never good.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 10:41 PM
I don't know if piercing it will do what we need.

"If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever.

No, most definately not. :smalltongue:
Maybe a specifically researched (homebrewed) version?

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 10:44 PM
Maybe a specifically researched (homebrewed) version?

Again, everything seems to hinge on DM's perogative, but doesn't everything? In my humble opinion I believe any DM worth his salt would let this work, cause it's pretty fun, and it's not overpowered in any way.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 10:51 PM
Again, everything seems to hinge on DM's perogative, but doesn't everything? In my humble opinion I believe any DM worth his salt would let this work, cause it's pretty fun, and it's not overpowered in any way.
If I ever get a wizard up high enough, I will have to give it a try. It isn't over powered, it is just creative.
The basic idea could be done extremely quickly, just give the passenger an air supplying item.
But this is much more fun.

Coidzor
2008-11-12, 11:04 PM
it's all very well and good to plan for a terrarium style of set up, but you have to make it robust enough to withstand, say, sudden bursts of extreme temperatures due to all of the areas that the bag of holding could be opened. Which is why the idea of the temperature regulating chill-metal/heat-metal traps sound good to me. Hell, it's almost an exercise in magical terraforming...

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 11:10 PM
it's all very well and good to plan for a terrarium style of set up, but you have to make it robust enough to withstand, say, sudden bursts of extreme temperatures due to all of the areas that the bag of holding could be opened. Which is why the idea of the temperature regulating chill-metal/heat-metal traps sound good to me. Hell, it's almost an exercise in magical terraforming...

True, but even with the 'traps' you still need plants for oxygen,and plants need water. Why not do both systems? For a such small scale enviroment, the traps would certainly help keep things even. But I am not quite following you on what about the bag of holding that would CAUSE the sudden changes in temperature.

Greengiant
2008-11-12, 11:17 PM
it's all very well and good to plan for a terrarium style of set up, but you have to make it robust enough to withstand, say, sudden bursts of extreme temperatures due to all of the areas that the bag of holding could be opened. Which is why the idea of the temperature regulating chill-metal/heat-metal traps sound good to me. Hell, it's almost an exercise in magical terraforming...


True, but even with the 'traps' you still need plants for oxygen,and plants need water. Why not do both systems? For a such small scale enviroment, the traps would certainly help keep things even. But I am not quite following you on what about the bag of holding that would CAUSE the sudden changes in temperature.

I think he is talking about an adventuring party for example being in an arctic environment with an average temperature far below that of their bag of holding's temperature, say, 265 K instead of 303. Opening the bag lets in frigid air or whatnot.

A solution to this would be to have those traps, but only for emergencies, and not have them on all the time, have them triggered at 15 degrees below average temperature to give it a boost back up, and the reverse if it gets too high.

Ravens_cry
2008-11-12, 11:24 PM
I think he is talking about an adventuring party for example being in an arctic environment with an average temperature far below that of their bag of holding's temperature, say, 265 K instead of 303. Opening the bag lets in frigid air or whatnot.

A solution to this would be to have those traps, but only for emergencies, and not have them on all the time, have them triggered at 15 degrees below average temperature to give it a boost back up, and the reverse if it gets too high.
Oh I see, cold, heat, traps for temperture extremes, and passive water cooling for other times. Thanks for clearing that up.

streakster
2008-11-12, 11:40 PM
Personal Construction (Shameless Ripoff of Thread)

Daylight Trap - 8,500 GP, 600 xp. It has a 50 minute duration, and is thus set to go off every 50 minutes. Strapped to an Immovable Rod. 5000 gp. Sun.

Cubes of Frost Resistance -675,000. Now the tempurature is always 65. Enjoy. Strapped to Immovable Rods 125,000 GP.

Plant Growth Trap - 8,500 GP, 600 xp. Set to go off when touched, or on a timer if you prefer. If there was any doubt about the viability of plants in our ecosystem, that just went bye-bye.

Animals - Rabbits. Bees. You know. If worried, include one gray bag of tricks.

Plants - Also free. Be sure to get food plants.

Dirt - Free. It's dirt. That's all.

Decanter of Endless Water - 9000 GP. Used for initial water supply, and to replenish any loss. Kept stoppered.

Cubic Gate - 164,000 GP. Waste disposal. Use only on good-aligned or uninhabited planes.

I think this works - the "sun" provides light to the plants, which produce oxygen and food. Animals help to provide carbon dioxide and soil nutrients and food. The cubes keep the tempurature fine. The gate deals with any excesses, and can be used to vent the atmosphere if necessary.

I know I missed something, so hit me.

Total cost: 995,000 GP, 1200 XP.

Halcyon_Dax
2008-11-13, 01:54 AM
If you guys wanted to go ahead and make an aquatic ecosystem why not just coat the entrance to your bag with aboleth slime :smallbiggrin:. Thats how it works right? I might be a little rusty but it wouldn't stop me from throwing the halfling in to see.

phoenixcire
2008-11-13, 02:43 AM
We would also need to know the caster level in all of this. Can the creator cast epic spells? If so, then a spell with Seed: Energy could solve all heating/cooling problems. Conjure can create vegetation. So, difficulty in making this ecosystem is based on caster level.

Irreverent Fool
2008-11-13, 05:41 AM
Oh dear, 303 K is what I meant I want the air to be. The source temperature varies depending on what we want the distance to be from the surface of our place.
Yes of course. I thought that was what you meant. However, since this is a bag of holding, the temperture control problem is even more difficult then say as on space station, as there is nowhere to dump the waste heat. It will just keep building up.

You can open the top.

Overlapping Energy Transformation Fields (SpC) combined with some object that automatically casts spells can save you some time of researching making spells permanent. The only one that pops into my head is the Heart of Winter (I think) from Frostburn which casts Fimbulwinter every day at dawn. That's plenty of energy for an Energy Transformation Field to recast spells for you.

You may have to sculpt spell the fields within the demiplane.
obnoxious
sig

Maryring
2008-11-13, 05:49 PM
Wow. This is incredibly fun. I'm gonna use it.

Though I'll probably use Genesis instead of a Bag of Holding. Then place the entrance to Genesis into a regular bag and thus get the big plane I want inside a bag.

phoenixcire
2008-11-13, 05:52 PM
Wow. This is incredibly fun. I'm gonna use it.

Though I'll probably use Genesis instead of a Bag of Holding. Then place the entrance to Genesis into a regular bag and thus get the big plane I want inside a bag.

That's pretty much what I was thinking about. The only problem I could think of was: If you enter the bag to get into the plane/ecosystem...does the bag go with you?

Recaiden
2008-11-13, 08:32 PM
See if you can get a scaled up bag of holding for a higher cost, or use portable holes inside portable holes.