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jguy
2008-11-14, 01:55 PM
I've been thinking on the best way for a melee oriented person like a fighter or barbarian to kill a caster. Assuming both are high levels since a caster can be killed by a punch to the head at low levels. Would that spellcaster hunter from complete warrior be a good idea?

Oh, quick question. Is there a feat that lets you use your fortitude saves instead of will? I swear I saw it before but can't remember

RTGoodman
2008-11-14, 01:59 PM
I've been thinking on the best way for a melee oriented person like a fighter or barbarian to kill a caster. Assuming both are high levels since a caster can be killed by a punch to the head at low levels. Would that spellcaster hunter from complete warrior be a good idea?

I don't remember the "Spellcasting Hunter" from CWar, but I know the Mage Slayer line of feats from CArc is probably good for this. The big things a meleer has to do to kill a caster, since damage is still not going to be a problem for an optimized meleer, is (1) survive everything a caster can throw at him first, and (2) get past all of a casters defenses. The Mage Slayer feats definitely help on the second (since it can dispel magic and whatnot), and I know there's one that keeps a caster from casting defensively, meaning they'll have to soak up an AoO just to cast if the meleer is close enough.


Oh, quick question. Is there a feat that lets you use your fortitude saves instead of will? I swear I saw it before but can't remember

There's not one that lets you use Fort instead of Will, but Steadfast Determination (I don't know the book) lets you use your Con modifier instead of your Wis to determine your Will save. I think the only pre-requisite is Endurance.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 02:05 PM
Depends on what you mean by high level, and how well built the caster is. By about level 10, a BBEG caster can be incredibly tough to kill. By 15, the Wizard is near invincible, and the Cleric and Druid can destroy Tokyo while sleepwalking.

jguy
2008-11-14, 02:10 PM
okay, for someone who isn't a caster, how does one go about killing a level 20 wizard, cleric, or druid?

afroakuma
2008-11-14, 02:15 PM
Antimagic fields go a long way. :smallbiggrin:
I believe the Con for Wis switching feat (and one of its brethren) were in either PHB2 or CAdv.

monty
2008-11-14, 02:17 PM
okay, for someone who isn't a caster, how does one go about killing a level 20 wizard, cleric, or druid?

Take the leadership feat, and get a caster cohort.

jguy
2008-11-14, 02:21 PM
Heh, I can picture a Fighter walking around with a portal anti-magic field and messing with powerful casters. Even then, I bet casters will have a way around that.

monty
2008-11-14, 02:23 PM
Heh, I can picture a Fighter walking around with a portal anti-magic field and messing with powerful casters. Even then, I bet casters will have a way around that.

Wizard 19/Warblade 1. If you get in an antimagic field, Iron Heart Surge, then a quickened win spell.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 02:23 PM
Heh, I can picture a Fighter walking around with a portal anti-magic field and messing with powerful casters. Even then, I bet casters will have a way around that.Orb spells. They're 4th level. Pretty good at killing. Or Walls of Force. Or...yeah. There's no way to kill a well-built 20th level Wizard without being a 21st level Caster.

Gorbash
2008-11-14, 02:24 PM
okay, for someone who isn't a caster, how does one go about killing a level 20 wizard, cleric, or druid?

Step one: Become a Deity. Intermediate, at least.
Step two: Hope the caster doesn't win the initiative.
Step three: Profit!

Breaw
2008-11-14, 02:26 PM
okay, for someone who isn't a caster, how does one go about killing a level 20 wizard, cleric, or druid?

I'm going to start with Wizard, as it is something that has been discussed at length on these boards at one time or another.

Short answer: You don't, you just don't.

Long answer: The problem with wizards is that they like living. They like living and they are paranoid.

There is a big difference in killing a high level wizard, and killing a paranoid high level wizard. Let me take a quick look at a reasonable defense plan for someone who really doesn't want to be killed.

Step 1: Prepare contingency. The spell tied to the contingency is 'Resilient sphere'

Step 2: Prepare some teleportation magic, preferably with some meta-magic to make it easier to cast. Quickened teleport as a 9th level slot is perfect, but expensive. Quickened D-Door or even just silent/still D-door or teleport will certainly suffice.

Step 3: If someone attacks and you aren't ready for them, teleport away. Go to your own plane of existence while you prepare to kill them. Scry on them, stop time, and mess them up in a serious way.

This is by no means the 'best' defensive strategy a wizard could have, but it's not bad.

If you are going to have any hope of killing a full arcane caster you are going to need to:

1) Sneak up on it. This is more or less impossible to do non-magically if they really don't want to be snuck up on. (Through use of this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/pryingEyesGreater.htm) spell if nothing else)

2) Get an Anti-magic field around them. This spell cannot be made permanent by raw, so you'll have to figure out what sort of charge based casting you'll be using.

3) Keep them in a grapple.

If you can figure out how to do those three things, you'll be good. Ultimately DMs rarely optimize a Wizards actions (although they really should, I mean... wizards generally like living), so in most campaigns it's not going to be nearly as hard as I just described.

-Breaw

Krrth
2008-11-14, 02:27 PM
As a famous assassin once said "No matter how powerful the Wizard, a knife between the shoulderblades will seriously cramp his style". Of course, he WAS talking about a souleating knife but still.....


also" Killing never solves anything, but it does keep people out of your hair while you figure out what to do"

Telonius
2008-11-14, 02:30 PM
okay, for someone who isn't a caster, how does one go about killing a level 20 wizard, cleric, or druid?

Wizard: Depends on how paranoid he is. If he's super-paranoid, get a bigger wizard. If he's very paranoid, accidentally. (They'll only ask about things that intend to hurt them in their divinations). Not all that paranoid: Dimensional anchor, and wear him down, make him use all of his spells. Don't let him get away, and don't let him sleep.

Cleric: Get the jump on him. This will be harder to do if he's smart about his divinations. But Clericzilla takes a few rounds to buff up. Use Disarm to snatch his Divine Focus before he can do that, or Sunder to break it. Most of the Cleric spells require a Divine Focus in order to function.

Druid: ... ask somebody else. Fresh out of ideas for that one.

monty
2008-11-14, 02:35 PM
Wizard: You don't.
Sorcerer: Depends on his spell selection, but chances are you don't.
Cleric: Win initiative and kill it in one round.
Druid: Win initiative and kill it, its animal companion, and anything else it may happen to have following it around in one round.

For the last two, I recommend an Ubercharger or something similar.

streakster
2008-11-14, 02:36 PM
What was the ultimate wizard defense from the Wizard v. Psion thread? Anyone have that?

As I recall, it was shapeshifting into an incorporeal form in a hemisphere of stone with a Prismatic wall and a dimensional anchor up, plus gating in dragons then gluing ring gates to their heads to cast through while they assaulted your foe. And then if you got through all that it was only your astral projection.

Is that about right? Cause that's what you'll have to plan to deal with at high levels...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 02:36 PM
Druids and Clerics, if you can get an AMF around them(how, I have no clue) aren't horribly dangerous. The problem is reaching them past their spot/listen checks, getting past the Druid's AC, getting the AMF up, and keeping them within it's radius while you wail on them. Not easy, especially with the Druid(who gets Spot/Listen as class skills, has the AC to beat you down, may well have ranks in Tumble cross-class, and is probably feat-invested in melee).

Killing a Wizard comes down to whether or not the Wizard's player wants him to die. Using the various defenses, the Wizard is untouchable. It's not possible.

arguskos
2008-11-14, 02:37 PM
Wizard: Good luck. If you can do this reliably, let us know.
Cleric: Sunder holy symbol (or other divine focus item). Kill in one round, before he goes.
Druid: Tactical Nuclear Device. Also, Squirrel Nuke.

Honestly, if you can reliably defeat any of these three with a non-caster, please, let us know, since that's damn amazing.

jguy
2008-11-14, 02:40 PM
god, killing a paranoid wizard sounds like this one situation I had to figure out. It involved having to kill a target that had a powerful psychic guardian that could look into the future about 5 minutes to see hostile actions against them, and had the ability to teleport around the world.

To kill the target, I eventually had to pay a kid to shake the dudes hand, putting a tracking device on him. [Kid didn't know what the device did or why]. Then follow the two around the world until they could no longer keep going.

streakster
2008-11-14, 02:42 PM
I has found it! The Lycanthromancer defense!


While within a Time-Stop (Extended via a metamagic rod), a simple 5th level spell (Wall of Stone) domed around the wizard can invalidate the need to worry about Antimagic Fields, casting while silenced or grappled, Energy Balls, Energy Bolts, Mordenkainen's Disjunctions, Crystal Shards, Ectoplasmic Cocoons, and a huge number of other spells, powers, tactics, and effects. Building a WoS inside of a Prismatic Sphere protects the WoS from taking any kind of damage until the Sphere is taken care of (and unless your psion has a Rod of Cancellation handy, he ain't taking it down). The Ring Gates I mentioned earlier could just as easily be held by some summonables, rather than glued to the foreheads of some really nasty CR 27 dragons (which I also did via Time-Stop). And guess what? Many of my summoned creatures have some very high-level casting abilities - and you'd better believe that an army of them is coming for you.

The only way to get in is to Metamorphosis into a creature that can burrow (which is why I'd plan on casting Wall of Iron to push over and stand on), or to teleport in (which is why I'd cast Dimensional Anchor on the walls).

I could have my familiar running around in an Antimagic Field effect. All it would have to do would be to run within 10 feet of you. Then the aforesaid dragons would likely eat you alive. If that didn't work, I'd make a Knowledge: Psionics check, likely figuring out that it was your psicrown that was giving you invulnerability, and have my dragons use their entire attack routines to sunder it (and any other equipment you were carrying, just in case).

Assuming that you managed to kill my familiar, and survived the Summoned/Gated creatures, then found ways around my turtle-shell, AND somehow got to me, I used my free time in my temporal plastic bubble to cast Shapechange, which means that I'm now an incorporeal undead, so you'll likely not be able to hurt me. And if you get past the 50% miss-chance imposed by incorporeality, I also used a Limited Wish to get a Contingencied Dimension-Door to transport me 5' underground, if something actually can damage me; since I'm incorporeal, I can exist within solid matter, so that's specifically allowed. Good luck getting to me there.

Also, to counteract your Schism effect, I have about 5 10th-level Simulacrums running around, trying to hit you with Forcecages and such (and unlike yours, they have no duration, have a full complement of spells as 10th-level casters, and don't drain any of my current resources). They were in my Bag of Holding, which I dumped out as a move-action on one of my plastic-bubble rounds, or perhaps on a later round; it doesn't matter that much.

And, assuming that you somehow managed to survive, have taken down all of my defenses, and then *killed* me, remember that it wasn't actually *me.* You've been fighting my Astral Projection this whole time, which has instantaneously returned to my real body (which is in my Bag of Holding, inert and in stasis). What this means is that I can learn from my mistakes and try to kill you all over again. By that time, you're likely down to 1/2 your power points or less, assuming that I haven't killed you after my familiar's AMF, my MKDs or my dragons' sunders and MKDs (or AMFs) take out your Timeless Body. Stat damage/drain is horrible, especially to either a manifesting stat (Int) or one of your weaker stats (Con or Cha), not to mention innumerable save-or-dies that target your rather weak Fortitude save (and that's not even including the spells that make you suffer without a single save - such as Otto's Irresistable Dance or Maze).

And to keep you and that pesky psicrystal from galavanting about with teleportation spells, my dragons and I have hit you with a half dozen Dimensional Anchor spells - touch attack, no save. You ain't going anywhere.

And, assuming you killed me AGAIN somehow (as I Extended Time-Stopped before teleporting out of the bag, and put up my defenses again), note that I had at least one Clone in my Bag of Holding (which is now me, and I could have more - note that all it costs is, at most, 1500 gp, and that I can have as many of these as I like, up to my gp limit), and that it's about to be teleporting out to keep up the barrage of spells that I've been flinging at you.

And before you start yelling about how I'm chewing through my spell-slots like mad, note that I've perhaps only actually casted a few spells from slots. The rest have been through my chock-full Rods of Absorption, and perhaps a few scrolls (and I can have tons of these, if I wanted them). Thus, I've only used a fraction of my resources thus far.

We are, at most, 15 rounds or so in. You've hardly been able to touch me, very likely, and if you have, I'm still in the running.

jguy
2008-11-14, 02:43 PM
It almost seems that you kill these dudes not through a fight, but by cheating. A couple drops of poison in the dudes food, served by a trusted servant [who doesn't know the poison] would do the trick. Or a uber level assassin who can look at the wizard for 12 seconds and not seem like an enemy. [would have to involve some sort of blank mind thing]

TempusCCK
2008-11-14, 02:44 PM
Eh, you're going to need judcious use of magic items. A Rogue or a Ranger might be your best bet, as they're heavily invested in sneaky stuff, with the full line of the Mage Slayer feats. It's generally considered a good option to avoid the Occult Slayer, as it doesn't offer much.

Specifically, you need two items, one of continuous Mind Blank, and the other a use activated item of Anti-magic Field. The rest can be handled with stealth.

Your objective is sneak in, get close, and let that AMF do it's thing for any regular buffs he may have on. If you get close, he can't cast without absorbing damage, now it's a matter of optimizing damage so that you can take him down before he makes a few concentration checks.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 02:45 PM
god, killing a paranoid wizard sounds like this one situation I had to figure out. It involved having to kill a target that had a powerful psychic guardian that could look into the future about 5 minutes to see hostile actions against them, and had the ability to teleport around the world.

To kill the target, I eventually had to pay a kid to shake the dudes hand, putting a tracking device on him. [Kid didn't know what the device did or why]. Then follow the two around the world until they could no longer keep going.Like that, only instead of Teleporting around the world, whenever they retreat they go to a private custom pocket dimension that only they can enter, that kills everyone there except them, and qualifies as the Material plane for the purposes of the Astral Projection spell when cast by the Wizard, and they don't actually leave. Rather, they Astral Project (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) out, with massive protections, to fool anyone that thinks they are vulnerable into showing their hand, then kills 'em.

puppyavenger
2008-11-14, 02:49 PM
also, any full arcane caster with 9th level spells is pretty immortal for another reason, Astral projection and Genesis.
how?

1. make friends with Deity, preferably a lawful one who owes you a favor, cast astral projection in their divine realm.
2. repeat several times,
3. cast genesis
4. astral project from impossible to reach genesis plane
5. repeat as needed
6. repeat in every stronghold or building you've got
7. awaken in new body, use all other strategies to make yourself invincible.

jguy
2008-11-14, 02:50 PM
Couldn't you say...dome the city they are in with an anti-magic field, followed by some sort of stone wall on the barest edges of that, then pump it full of say...lava or some sort of gas?

Wait, this has gone from killing a caster to just outright genocide. My bad

jguy
2008-11-14, 02:53 PM
Hearing all this, I have a hard time believing that the gods wouldn't be getting involved, at least the evil ones. You have caster with enough power to practically 'become' gods [just look at Vecna] so wouldn't the evil ones smite the ones that come too close just to makes sure they had no competition?

Learnedguy
2008-11-14, 02:57 PM
Me, being the cowardly weasel I am, kinda like more unorthodox methods of solving my wizarding problems.

Usually I hire some faceless goons to wear him out before killing him in his sleep. Kinda bothersome if they teleport away of course, but hey, if they aren't here they can't hurt me, right?

Right:smalleek:?

Poison that makes them go numb also helps. Y'know, if the dagger in the back didn't help.

Now, if the caster comes for you, then you are f-----, seriously f-----.

MeklorIlavator
2008-11-14, 02:57 PM
Couldn't you say...dome the city they are in with an anti-magic field, followed by some sort of stone wall on the barest edges of that, then pump it full of say...lava or some sort of gas?

Wait, this has gone from killing a caster to just outright genocide. My bad

Well, all of that would take alot of time and also breaking the rules. Plus, it still doesn't stop teleport, planshift, gate, ploymorph, etc.


Hearing all this, I have a hard time believing that the gods wouldn't be getting involved, at least the evil ones. You have caster with enough power to practically 'become' gods [just look at Vecna] so wouldn't the evil ones smite the ones that come too close just to makes sure they had no competition?
Well, the problem is that the other gods don't want [inset Deity Here] messing with the material plane too much, as by doing so he could gain too much power. That's also why gods don't just smite anyone who goes against their interest.

jguy
2008-11-14, 03:03 PM
Well, all of that would take alot of time and also breaking the rules. Plus, it still doesn't stop teleport, planshift, gate, ploymorph, etc.


Well, the problem is that the other gods don't want [inset Deity Here] messing with the material plane too much, as by doing so he could gain too much power. That's also why gods don't just smite anyone who goes against their interest.

Ya, still new to the game so I don't know everything else. Also, far too many spells and magical items for me to keep track of to know every possible thing.

Poison always fascinated me for the purposes of assassination, especially since wizards have bad fort saves. Couldn't you pump someplace full of gas [oderless/tasteless] and just kill them in their sleep. [or trance]

MeklorIlavator
2008-11-14, 03:07 PM
Poison always fascinated me for the purposes of assassination, especially since wizards have bad fort saves. Couldn't you pump someplace full of gas [oderless/tasteless] and just kill them in their sleep. [or trance]
How do you manage to make the place airtight and also get large amounts of poison stockpiled all within 2-8 hours? And how do you find him, anyways?

arguskos
2008-11-14, 03:08 PM
Ya, still new to the game so I don't know everything else. Also, far too many spells and magical items for me to keep track of to know every possible thing.

Poison always fascinated me for the purposes of assassination, especially since wizards have bad fort saves. Couldn't you pump someplace full of gas [oderless/tasteless] and just kill them in their sleep. [or trance]
They just sleep in their Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, which you can neither find nor access, so that doesn't work that well.

Face it man, a Wizard that doesn't want to die isn't going to, short of DM/Deity Intervention.

Eldariel
2008-11-14, 03:09 PM
Outside their own plane, Gods would not only risk getting smitten by other Gods, but also by mortals. A God walking the Material Plane is very much killable, especially with epic casters in existence. Really, it's a v. bad idea for a God to leave their own plane to smite some random mortals. That's why they practically never do that.

And level 20 Wizards aren't dying. My personal favourite is Incantatrix/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (it lacks the standard offensive punch, but has handy defensive abilities). Initiate gives him Veils, which among other things, block Line of Effect making them immune to Anti-Magic Fields. Incantatrix allows them to persist an arbitrary number of spells per day (or well, enough. 3+Int, where Int is Wizard's Int). Add to that Craft Contingent Spell meaning maybe hundred different Contingencies, the fact that they never actually go anywhere themselves (they only use Astral Projection), the fact that they still pack level 20 Wizard's offense, can divine few days into the future (and the constant Foresight of course warns them of any impending danger), will just be revived in another pocket plane if they die, can summon something like CR 40 army in a matter of seconds and this is without actually using most of their abilities (like becoming invulnerable to all effects, or using Persistent Shapechange to generate infinite Wishes to make reality what you want it to, or heck, just preparing a level 20 Cleric spell list in addition to your Wizard list...) means they're just very, very impossible to touch. Also, they're impossible to detect through any means.

A Cleric can replicate all a Wizard can do with enough work (except for Initiate and Incantatrix, but DMM gives them plenty of Persisting and Initiate of Mystra allows them to cast normally in AMF and Dead Magic Zones, so they're just fine). So a tough-enough Cleric is also going to be completely untouchable.

A Druid is a noob by comparison. However, they can still cast Shapechange which allows them to get level 20 Arcane casting meaning they can replicate everything a Wizard can do, except the class features, which they'll have to work for. They still have the meat shield animal companion and the most easily accessible city destroying powers though (like Control Weather/Control Winds).

Vinotaur
2008-11-14, 03:12 PM
1) A Wizard with 8th level spells is immortal, because they make a Genesis plane, and then they Planar Bind a Nightmare to have it Astral Project them with it's supernatural (non-dispellable) ability.

2) Even if you had some weird Dome that was a Giant AMF for an entire city, it still wouldn't stop a level 9 Wizard who is even remotely prepared. First he casts Wall of Force to break line of effect, then he casts Teleport.

Game over AMF city. Seriously, thank goodness for Wall of Force not being suppressed by AMFs.

jguy
2008-11-14, 03:13 PM
Oh, I'll figure a way...

Heck, I'll hire another wizard to do it for me but that'd defeat the point of my question and the fact that it's already been suggested.

I heard some where that there was a berserker that couldn't die while raging. Is that true? Frenzied Berserker I think

Eldariel
2008-11-14, 03:14 PM
Game over AMF city. Seriously, thank goodness for Wall of Force not being suppressed by AMFs.

Initiate would just walk in, ignore the AMF and act as if it didn't exist (except everyone else is stripped of magical protections). Then call down hell or something. Heck, even Control Weather would solve.

EDIT: jguy: Frenzied Berserker is immortal while Frenzying. That doesn't last very long though and they can still have their minds raped. Or the Frenzy-status ended. Or their existence ended. They might just get Unnamed. But yes, just beating the tar out of them doesn't work then. Wizards are a tad bit more immortal. Killing them tends to take Divine Ranks or Epic Spellcasting.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 03:14 PM
I heard some where that there was a berserker that couldn't die while raging. Is that true? Frenzied Berserker I thinkReached Plane Shift to the Plane of Fire. He's not going to be dangerous while he finishes having a coronary.

jguy
2008-11-14, 03:19 PM
Don't know why I am thinking so hard on this. I guess it just irks me that there is something that is essentially unkillable and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Perhaps it was because I didn't have the best introduction to the D&D world with my play group.

Adumbration
2008-11-14, 03:21 PM
I refer you to the PvP game "A Role Reversed?" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81144)

3 mage slayers against 1 mage. The mage loses twice in a row, before winning through a cunning OOC trick. (The challenge granted the mage slayers two CL 20 buffs up, the mage - the DM - used Maw of Chaos. Twice. In a Time Stop. There was an argument about whether the leading mage slayer played by Eldariel could use Island in Time before the Time Stop, but he eventually conceded.)

Still, I thought the first two matches were fun to watch. I'd like to see something similar again, some day, maybe even participate.

EDIT: And he used the incorporeal within a Wall of Stone trick. And he hid inside the walls. And he used Orbs of Death.

afroakuma
2008-11-14, 03:22 PM
Question: Are full casters still unkillable without prep time?

Doomsy
2008-11-14, 03:22 PM
Use 4E. And twist the knife. Slowly.

jguy
2008-11-14, 03:26 PM
I've only briefly glanced at 4e because I am still learning 3.5

Eldariel
2008-11-14, 03:29 PM
I refer you to the PvP game "A Role Reversed?" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81144)

3 mage slayers against 1 mage. The mage loses twice in a row, before winning through a cunning OOC trick. (The challenge granted the mage slayers two CL 20 buffs up, the mage - the DM - used Maw of Chaos. Twice. In a Time Stop. There was an argument about whether the leading mage slayer played by Eldariel could use Island in Time before the Time Stop, but he eventually conceded.)

Still, I thought the first two matches were fun to watch. I'd like to see something similar again, some day, maybe even participate.

EDIT: And he used the incorporeal within a Wall of Stone trick. And he hid inside the walls. And he used Orbs of Death.

The things to remember about that particular thing was:
-The mage basically stops himself from using his greatest asset, mobility. That is, he's confined to a 100'/100'/100' area and cannot leave it. Normally, mages engage at the maximum distance of their spells and always maintain that distance through teleportation magic.
-Talic specifically stated he'd think of the 5 best plans, and go with the 6th. As was shown, that didn't work after the defeats in G1 and 2, but one of the 5 plans worked just fine (although again, it was sort of violation of the rules to incorporeally move through a wall that was said to block all movement). Easier would've been just a bunch of Walls of Force to limit the battlefield into his liking, or some means to become entirely unnoticable, or Gating something in or so. It's also worth noting that he stopped himself from using a bunch of spells like Celerity, Shivering Touch and so on just on the principle of going to show that a Wizard is still busted without them.
-The Mage's build was hardly optimized. It was no Initiate, definitely no Incantatrix. It wasn't even a Wizard. No, it was a Frostmage Sorcerer.

We could've killed him. The correct course of action would've been to have an effect on us that detects his Contingency, have me win initiative, but delay action to someone else's turn. Then that someone else attacks him, his Contingency goes off and I use Island in Time the moment it's going off to make a lethal Time Stands Still-attack. That said, without means to detect every spell on him, it's nearly impossible to perform that.


As for the argument, the critical timing of Island was actually whether there would be a window to use it between Time Stop ending and Maws taking effect.

Doomsy
2008-11-14, 03:31 PM
4E....It basically kicks the uber-wizard in the shin and steals their lunch money. Currently much more balanced than 3.5E with the wizard , but that may change with splatbooks. In 3.5E wizard-kills-all is pretty much an artform. With the proper spells, etc, etc, they can pretty much do anything, including leaving melee characters in the dust fairly damn quickly. If anything I've heard that the 4E wizard can be somewhat underpowered if you're still trying the same play style from 3.5 to 4E.

Eldariel
2008-11-14, 03:36 PM
That said, 3.5 Wizard can be both, extremely enjoyable and a valuable addition to the party if the spell selection is restricted (at least the most broken ones removed - just taking out Polymorph-line removes the Wizard's capability to be the party meatshield, removing Celerity, Time Stop and company means they can't cheat on actions and removing Gate means they can't cheat too bad. Then just fixing up Planar Bindings and nerffing few control spells and you're good to go) and the player is knowledgable. If the Wizard is picking crap like Magic Missile, Scorching Ray and Fireball, you'd be better off with another Fighter though.

jguy
2008-11-14, 03:40 PM
all the casters I play with are evil...shines some insight on everything huh?

Adumbration
2008-11-14, 03:41 PM
On a slight tangent, can a non-caster character be built to withstand any attacks by an equivalent caster? Get Improved Mettle and Evasion, pump the saves to the stratosphere, get SR over 35, stuff like that? Or perhaps be an undetectable rogue, with Mind Blank and Nondetection, hiding in plain sight? An unstoppable berserker, perhaps?

jguy
2008-11-14, 03:44 PM
but there are a lot of spells and stuff that don't give a save and ignore SR

Adumbration
2008-11-14, 03:45 PM
but there are a lot of spells and stuff that don't give a save and ignore SR

I'm drawing blank, to be frank. Could someone name a few that would lead to demise?

Telonius
2008-11-14, 03:46 PM
Question: Are full casters still unkillable without prep time?

It depends on how broadly you interpret "prep time," I suppose. Does setting up a contingent spell count as prep time?

EDIT: @ Adumbration: Forcecage, for starters.

Eldariel
2008-11-14, 03:46 PM
On a slight tangent, can a non-caster character be built to withstand any attacks by an equivalent caster? Get Improved Mettle and Evasion, pump the saves to the stratosphere, get SR over 35, stuff like that? Or perhaps be an undetectable rogue, with Mind Blank and Nondetection, hiding in plain sight? An unstoppable berserker, perhaps?

Well, all our mage slayers were pretty survivable. I only chose the wrong buff for the last match (I should've kept Spell Resistance to force him to spend few extra actions on it). Have:
All high saves
Huge Touch AC (talking 50+)
Evasion
Mettle
High HP and access to Heals and Greater Restorations
Spell Resistance

That combination should keep you mostly alive against all but most optimized offensive Wizard-builds. The ones who just Enervate you for 20 levels though (or Orb of Force you for 1000 points of damage), it's really hard to stop as they have Assay Resistance and True Strike to hit the two defenses that work against that (or, in the case of Orbs, the one defense).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 03:48 PM
I'm drawing blank, to be frank. Could someone name a few that would lead to demise?The orb line, Summon Monster X, That sort of thing.

Adumbration
2008-11-14, 03:53 PM
Good point about the Orb of Force and Enervation, though I'm pretty sure there are ways past those as well - either through stuff like Cube of Force, a buff, or a class feature. Or a selection of race.

The other orbs, however, are rather weak, becouse they allow Fortitude Partial, which again can be negated by Mettle. Summon Monster spells are a bit pointless, since they are inevitably weaker than the caster, and we are talking about a character who has optimised against casters.

afroakuma
2008-11-14, 03:58 PM
Well, all our mage slayers were pretty survivable. I only chose the wrong buff for the last match (I should've kept Spell Resistance to force him to spend few extra actions on it). Have:
All high saves
Huge Touch AC (talking 50+)
Evasion
Mettle
High HP and access to Heals and Greater Restorations
Spell Resistance

That combination should keep you mostly alive against all but most optimized offensive Wizard-builds. The ones who just Enervate you for 20 levels though (or Orb of Force you for 1000 points of damage), it's really hard to stop as they have Assay Resistance and True Strike to hit the two defenses that work against that (or, in the case of Orbs, the one defense).

Those numbers are preposterous. How was this done? Not purely core?

Eldariel
2008-11-14, 04:00 PM
Those numbers are preposterous. How was this done? Not purely core?

Incantatrix. Although, I suppose Artificer could work too. Basically, just stack every damage-increasing metamagic feat in existence on one spell. The general gist of it is to make Metamagic really cheap (or free, as with Incantatrix/Artificer) and use lots of it.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-14, 04:02 PM
I've been thinking on the best way for a melee oriented person like a fighter or barbarian to kill a caster. Assuming both are high levels since a caster can be killed by a punch to the head at low levels. Would that spellcaster hunter from complete warrior be a good idea?

Beating Batmen: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 04:03 PM
Beating Batmen: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704)don't do that. He's new, he might think you're serious. :smalleek:

Adumbration
2008-11-14, 04:09 PM
Those numbers are preposterous. How was this done? Not purely core?

Are you talking about the caster or the non-caster?

EDIT: Hmm. The best thing I have so far is a Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 7/ X 8. Wildshape into a Will-o'-wisp for the immunity to magic, invisibility and deflection bonus to AC. Maybe a few levels of paladin for the saves next, then Hexblade 3 for Mettle? Levels in Swordsage for Wis AC in light armor plus a few handy maneuvers? Focus on mental stats, wildshape will take care of the physical.

afroakuma
2008-11-14, 04:21 PM
Both. 1000 damage off of one spell, and a 50 touch AC...

Eldariel
2008-11-14, 04:50 PM
50 Touch AC is barely anything. Every Dragon-encounter I run has 50 Touch AC (Scintillating Scales). The most common means of achieving it:
-Stacking Abilities for AC (Fist of the Forests 1+Deepwarden 2+Monk's Belt/Monk 1/Swordsage 2/whatever has Conx2 and Wis to AC; anything with Monk's Belt has Wis and Dex to AC; Int, Cha, etc. can all also be easily added).
-Changing shape (Monk 1/Sorcerer 19, pick Ascetic Mage to get Cha to AC, shapechange into Nymph for immense Cha and another time Cha to AC. Heck, toss in two levels of Arcane Duelist for once more Cha to AC). Turn into a Pit Fiend for natural 40 without items. Items push it to 80 easily; Scintillating Scales makes it all Deflection.
-Elaborate Parry + Combat Expertise - then just always move in Total Defense (moving half the normal speed - you can pump your speed so high you still slow nobody down, or you could just teleport around - a Dervish can get very nice results this way).
-Spells.


Generally, 1+2 lead to the most efficient results. For example, Deep Warden+FotF dip on Druid/Master of Many Forms turning into a high Con-form and pumping some enhancements on it while wearing Monk's Belt (Wilding Clasped) and casting Owl's Insight (½ CL into Wisdom as Insight bonus) + normal +6 Wis should easily break 100 (+25 from Wis, +15x2 from Con, +30 Natural Armor turned into Deflection via. Scintillating Scales, then just Unearthly Grace from earlier Shapechange for +10 Cha to AC or something for a total of Touch AC 105, and that's without going into real stackings).


EDIT: As for 1000 damage, I dunno, I don't wanna go grab a list of all the metamagic. It's just Maximize+Empower+Twin+Split+Repeat+Fell Drain+whatever. Basically, pick up base 15d6 damage or so, maximize it and double it a couple of times for a thousand or two of damage. It's nothing major. Basically, make metamagic cheap (Incantatrix, Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic, etc.), use few 0-cost Metamagics to lower the spell level from other metamagic, apply the most expensive ones through free additions from Incantatrix/Artificer/whatever and just deal damage.

afroakuma
2008-11-14, 04:51 PM
My point was that it seems excessive in core. My opinion seems to be vindicated.

Eldariel
2008-11-14, 04:53 PM
My point was that it seems excessive in core. My opinion seems to be vindicated.

You still have Shapechange in Core. That said, you need to work a bit to get it.

afroakuma
2008-11-14, 04:56 PM
Shapechange with core creatures and feats doesn't seem able to buy a 50 touch AC. 50 total AC is feasible.

Eldariel
2008-11-14, 05:25 PM
Eh, you're not working hard enough. Out of all the things D&D, Core is the most broken. Beyond the obvious Wish-loops, infinite Con-Shambling Mounds, infinite Cha Polymorph>Awaken loops, etc. you've got very simple ability to stack effects from Polymorphs (Shapechange grants Supernatural Abilities and takes them away; others don't touch 'em so you can have any Supernatural Abilities on any creature). Pick the said Unearthly Grace, PAO into Elder Air Elemental, cast buffs on yourself to assume 42 Dex (+16), 28 Wis (+9) and 30 Cha (+10). Get Touch AC of 45. Deflection +5 = Touch AC 50.

Or if you favour simple means, be a Duelist 10 with Monk-levels. Fight Defensively constantly (always applied thanks to Uncanny Dodge) for +13 to AC (+10 Elaborate Parry +1 Tumble). Get Int into +8 along with Dex and Wis (Inherent bonuses and Enhancement together make it easy). Heck, you may wanna toss some level-up points around as well. 24+13 into Touch AC makes for 47 total. Then Ring of Deflection +5 for 52. Oh yeah, and Monk's Belt and such add to AC, but I'm not factoring those right now.

Eh, you pretty much can do whatever you want in Core. While you can't shoot someone for 1000 damage by level 20, you can cast Empowered Maximized Enervation, followed by the same spell from Metamagic Rod of Quicken. That's still 10-12 negative levels. Not that awesome, but lethal anyways. Anyways, that's why it's a bad idea for casters to go for damage in core - it's so much more efficient to make opponent make a saving throw or die. Or summon something. Or make the opponents unable to do anything with various Fogs and whatnot, making them sparring dummies.

EDIT: I forgot the obvious "be a ghost"-answer. Polymorphing into one grants Cha to AC. Getting it there twice, and the already-impressive Dex goes a long way. 1 level of Monk adds Wis to AC. Cha with +6 is 30 (add Inherents for 34 if you wish), Wis is 24 and Dex is 34 (38 with obvious options). Even without adding any Wishes, you've got 10 base+10+12+7=40. Wishes raise it to 46, Dodge to 47. You could Shrink yourself or whatever for the last points (heck, being Diminuitive would give +8 removing the need for Wishes almost entirely).

Teron
2008-11-14, 06:06 PM
The things to remember about that particular thing was:
-The mage basically stops himself from using his greatest asset, mobility. That is, he's confined to a 100'/100'/100' area and cannot leave it. Normally, mages engage at the maximum distance of their spells and always maintain that distance through teleportation magic.
-Talic specifically stated he'd think of the 5 best plans, and go with the 6th. As was shown, that didn't work after the defeats in G1 and 2, but one of the 5 plans worked just fine (although again, it was sort of violation of the rules to incorporeally move through a wall that was said to block all movement). Easier would've been just a bunch of Walls of Force to limit the battlefield into his liking, or some means to become entirely unnoticable, or Gating something in or so. It's also worth noting that he stopped himself from using a bunch of spells like Celerity, Shivering Touch and so on just on the principle of going to show that a Wizard is still busted without them.
-The Mage's build was hardly optimized. It was no Initiate, definitely no Incantatrix. It wasn't even a Wizard. No, it was a Frostmage Sorcerer.

We could've killed him. The correct course of action would've been to have an effect on us that detects his Contingency, have me win initiative, but delay action to someone else's turn. Then that someone else attacks him, his Contingency goes off and I use Island in Time the moment it's going off to make a lethal Time Stands Still-attack. That said, without means to detect every spell on him, it's nearly impossible to perform that.


As for the argument, the critical timing of Island was actually whether there would be a window to use it between Time Stop ending and Maws taking effect.
I read that recently. Technically, the rules said that no one could move more than ten feet past/into the walls, so hiding just inside them was legal. On top of that, Talic also denied himself the mass of all-day buffs any caster worth his salt would have, as well as gate and shapechange, among other things. That was all on top of fighting three characters optimized to take on a mage, of course. I mean, you guys were good, but the odds were stacked against Talic about as much as they could be.

Tokiko Mima
2008-11-14, 06:25 PM
If you want to kill a caster, there's one full proofed method. Become immortal through any of the various D&D methods (undeath, Elan, etc.) and just outlive the caster. Eventually good aligned casters grow old and die. Evil ones tend to attract attention and get themselves slain. :smalltongue:

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-14, 06:26 PM
If you want to kill a caster, there's one full proofed method. Become immortal and just outlive the caster. Eventually good aligned casters grow old and die. Evil ones tend to attract attention and get themselves slain. :smalltongue:

Or, you know, just hire a group of adventurers to do it for you.

monty
2008-11-14, 06:27 PM
If you want to kill a caster, there's one full proofed method. Become immortal and just outlive the caster. Eventually good aligned casters grow old and die. Evil ones tend to attract attention and get themselves slain. :smalltongue:

Become one of the various good liches or whatever, or be something with no maximum age (like a warforged), or just get epic spellcasting and give yourself immortality that way.

Wizards can live forever, too.

FoE
2008-11-14, 06:35 PM
There is one way of defeating a caster that isn't explicity prohibited by the D&D rules: shoot his player and burn the character sheet.

I call it the "Hurray for Murder" strategy. :smalltongue:

Tokiko Mima
2008-11-14, 06:39 PM
Just a small warning though: Don't keep trying to kill the caster while you wait for them to die. The last thing you want is to give them a reason to extend their own life and haunt any future plans.


Or, you know, just hire a group of adventurers to do it for you.

Do you really want to do is make yourself a target of a high level paranoid mage who has your name and number and thinks you're an the puppet-master of a band of assassins? I'm thinking not.

Just cool your heels and wait it out. Write the next bestselling novel, or take up painting. Or better.. take up magic yourself.


Become one of the various good liches or whatever, or be something with no maximum age (like a warforged), or just get epic spellcasting and give yourself immortality that way.

Wizards can live forever, too.

Yeah, but the good aligned one usually need a reason, otherwise they espouse that crazy 'It's nature's course' stuff and let old age have them. Evil ones usually don't even make it middle age with all the heroes of the world out to kill them once they reared their mad mage heads.

monty
2008-11-14, 06:41 PM
Yeah, but the good aligned one usually need a reason, otherwise they espouse that crazy 'It's nature's course' stuff and let old age have them. Evil ones usually don't even make it middle age with all the heroes of the world out to kill them once they reared their mad mage heads.

Still leaves warforged and elans and whatnot.

Tokiko Mima
2008-11-14, 06:49 PM
There is one way of defeating a caster that isn't explicity prohibited by the D&D rules: shoot his player and burn the character sheet.

I call it the "Hurray for Murder" strategy. :smalltongue:

But what if they gave a copy to someone else or have the character saved on the internet? I sense mass genocide and electronic warfare in this plan!


Still leaves warforged and elans and whatnot.

True, but now we've eliminated the majority of casters. In the case of already immortal good aligned wizards you need to try different strategies. How about arranging it so they can save the world by sacrificing themselves? Good aligned mages eat that stuff up. :smallamused:

chiasaur11
2008-11-14, 06:49 PM
You know, that makes one realize that DnD worlds, given time, default to being run by ancient magic robots.

That's kinda awesome.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-14, 06:51 PM
You know, that makes one realize that DnD worlds, given time, default to being run by ancient magic robots.

That's kinda awesome.

Elan's are better. Warforged get ASF

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 06:52 PM
Elan's are better. Warforged get ASFMithral Body. Or Spellsword.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-14, 06:53 PM
Mithral Body. Or Spellsword.

Meaning 1 fewer feat.

But it's not like it matters. Once you hit level 21 you get to run the world.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 06:57 PM
Meaning 1 fewer feat.

But it's not like it matters. Once you hit level 21 you get to run the world.Isn't it only 5%? If it is, get yourself made Twilight and then Chaos Shuffle.

monty
2008-11-14, 07:16 PM
Or just take Automatic Still Spell a couple of times. You're epic, you can afford it. Especially if you chaos shuffle.

FoE
2008-11-14, 07:21 PM
But what if they gave a copy to someone else or have the character saved on the internet? I sense mass genocide and electronic warfare in this plan!

Hurray for cyber-terrorism! :smallbiggrin:

mostlyharmful
2008-11-14, 07:24 PM
To kill a caster first you must find said caster, this is the stage at which virtually every noncaster fails.

-Druids can be ANY-damn-THING in the area, try tracking doen every squirrel and fox in the forest...

-Wizards are flying/invisible/non-detectable/etc.... skill ranks don't help to track them down.

-Clerics can plane-shift to the bosses office from 9th level, they come equiped with a superpowerful patron outsider with a vested interest in their wellbeing and a custom built impregnable fortress.

For a non-caster it's virtually impossible to come up with something that can start the contest in the first place without blowing stupendous amounts of your WBL on items that try to replicate casting or paying NPC casters which undermines your build or cedes the argument respectively. Psion is about the best bet, getting around the "casters rule" facet of the game by means of (you guessed it) being a full caster in braincrancking clothing.

The next big hurdle is in reaching the flying, astrally-projected, incorporeal, contingencied, teleporting, planeshifting, extra-planer-hiding caster. Not all casters have the same access to every magic without a little work but all of them get means of bouncing around the strategic and tactical levels that non-casters just can't keep up with without cheese. Cheese to the intensity of gamebreakiness which rather defeats the point of playing, when one side just uses their class features and the other needs to be burning candles of invocation to keep up....

Then you've got the perplexing problem of hitting and hurting a caster, with AC boosts, miss chances, concealment, battlefield control, Illusions, summoned/called minions, whatever.... actually landing that suppossed knockout punch is starting to look a little problematic. Casters get to layer their defenses in a way that noncasters just can't afford, they get to use their own WBL and all the tricks their own casting puts in their hands (many levels before it's affordable to noncasters)...

Now, you've got to make it stick..... in a world where keeping an enemy down for the count is actually more of a challenge than stomping a target into mashed potato you've got to get a caster into the position where no-one in the whole multiverse likes them anymore. With a powerful friend/backer any highlevel PC can have insurance policies and casters get them a whole lot easier. Casters get access to deal making spells and contingencies that noncasters again, just can't afford to do and keep up on their own equipment.

Fullcasters are always ahead of the curve on breaking the rules, it's just that simple. Other classes can mimic their schtick but you get hold of that untouchable golden calf of awesome whole levels earlier by grabbing it by the horns and bending it over yourself rather than relying on minions and items.

Heliomance
2008-11-14, 09:07 PM
I'm considering a rogue/shadowdancer build with twinked out hide and sleight of hand checks who makes a habit of pilfering spell component pouches and holy symbols :)

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-14, 09:12 PM
I'm considering a rogue/shadowdancer build with twinked out hide and sleight of hand checks who makes a habit of pilfering spell component pouches and holy symbols :)

Eschew Materials

Yukitsu
2008-11-14, 09:23 PM
I'm considering a rogue/shadowdancer build with twinked out hide and sleight of hand checks who makes a habit of pilfering spell component pouches and holy symbols :)

And when he find out you did it when he gets a new one to divine everything about you and your family, and your families dog, and your dogs family? :smallamused:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 09:25 PM
I'm considering a rogue/shadowdancer build with twinked out hide and sleight of hand checks who makes a habit of pilfering spell component pouches and holy symbols :)I have 5. At level 5. One is actually poured out in my HHH. When is this a good tactic?

SurlySeraph
2008-11-14, 09:31 PM
The best way to kill a wizard is to never do anything that makes him think you are a threat to him (or that you even exist) and then either stab him in the back with a poisoned weapon or poison his food. Preferably the round he leaves or enters his Magnificent Mansion. The second-best way to kill a wizard is to hire some kind of plane-shifting, dimension-lock-casting creatures to chase him until he runs out of spell slots and then prevent him from teleporting away. The third-best way to kill a wizard is to use his massive overconfidence to lure him into an Anti-Magic Field, and then kill him with a pointed stick.


Well, all our mage slayers were pretty survivable. I only chose the wrong buff for the last match (I should've kept Spell Resistance to force him to spend few extra actions on it). Have:
All high saves
Huge Touch AC (talking 50+)
Evasion
Mettle
High HP and access to Heals and Greater Restorations
Spell Resistance

Also consider being undead, to get around Enervation and death spells. Being a golem is even better.


I have 5. At level 5. One is actually poured out in my HHH. When is this a good tactic?

When the wizard doesn't have 5.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-14, 09:35 PM
The best way to kill a wizard is to never do anything that makes him think you are a threat to him (or that you even exist) and then either stab him in the back with a poisoned weapon or poison his food. Preferably the round he leaves or enters his Magnificent Mansion. The second-best way to kill a wizard is to hire some kind of plane-shifting, dimension-lock-casting creatures to chase him until he runs out of spell slots and then prevent him from teleporting away. The third-best way to kill a wizard is to use his massive overconfidence to lure him into an Anti-Magic Field, and then kill him with a pointed stick.
Foresight means that you never get to stab him, unless you can enter his MMM then you can't reach his food to poison that.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 09:35 PM
When the wizard doesn't have 5.5 GP. You can generally afford 5 by about level 3.

Yukitsu
2008-11-14, 09:37 PM
Characters over level 5 eat food that sits in the open? :smallconfused:

SurlySeraph
2008-11-14, 09:40 PM
Foresight means that you never get to stab him, unless you can enter his MMM then you can't reach his food to poison that.

And you can only enter if he wants you to...

Hm, revision. The best way to kill a wizard is to be his girlfriend and randomly shank him while he's preparing his spells for the day.


5 GP. You can generally afford 5 by about level 3.

I know, but how many wizards bother to carry 5 2-pound items? Their strength is already low enough that they need that carrying capacity for Twilight Mithral Armor and staffs and gloves and such.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-14, 09:45 PM
And you can only enter if he wants you to...

Hm, revision. The best way to kill a wizard is to be his girlfriend and randomly shank him while he's preparing his spells for the day.

Pretty much. You have to get him to trust you. A factotum who has been mindraped is about the best way to do it, and the odds on succeeding on that are only about 10%. And depend on the wizard making mistakes (wording divinations incorrectly mostly).

Doomsy
2008-11-14, 09:58 PM
Pretty much. You have to get him to trust you. A factotum who has been mindraped is about the best way to do it, and the odds on succeeding on that are only about 10%. And depend on the wizard making mistakes (wording divinations incorrectly mostly).

This is why I fully endorse 4E as the best way to kill a wizard, period.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-14, 10:01 PM
This is why I fully endorse 4E as the best way to kill a wizard, period.

Good for you. That doesn't have much to do with this thread though. :smallwink:

SurlySeraph
2008-11-14, 10:17 PM
Pretty much. You have to get him to trust you. A factotum who has been mindraped is about the best way to do it, and the odds on succeeding on that are only about 10%. And depend on the wizard making mistakes (wording divinations incorrectly mostly).

That's very much true. And that gives me another (if less viable for low-level mundane characters) method of wizard-killing. Diplomance the wizard until he's fanatically loyal to you, and then order him to go do something really stupid, such as kill everything in the Far Realms without resting, right now.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-14, 10:21 PM
That's very much true. And that gives me another (if less viable for low-level mundane characters) method of wizard-killing. Diplomance the wizard until he's fanatically loyal to you, and then order him to go do something really stupid, such as kill everything in the Far Realms without resting, right now.DC 60 checks are makeable by level 2, easily. That turns him from Hostile to Friendly in one round. Good enough, IMHO. Toss in Bluff, and he should be your slave.

Yukitsu
2008-11-14, 10:24 PM
DC 60 checks are makeable by level 2, easily. That turns him from Hostile to Friendly in one round. Good enough, IMHO.

Need fanatic to do things that put them in danger. Mindblock also prevents fanatisism, according to the rules.

In addition, wizard vs. far realms = EXP boost for the wizard. :smallwink:

Frosty
2008-11-14, 10:28 PM
The way I rule things, you can kill a wizard using (ironically) a Monk or some other class that gives speed boosts.

You'll need to to be able to reliably UMD your own Timestop and AMF and Mindblank,or get items that activate those on command. Be mindblanked so the Wizard can't scry on you and divinations won't work against you. Use Timestop when you are a bit aways from the wizard. Physically run up to the caster. Contingency can't trigger due to time being stopped. Cast AMF while next to caster. Doing so ends the Time Stop. You are now next to the caster and he now has NONE of his buffs. Proceed to grapple or use Improved Trip or Stand Still to keep him next to you as you beat his face in.

Yukitsu
2008-11-14, 10:34 PM
The way I rule things, you can kill a wizard using (ironically) a Monk or some other class that gives speed boosts.

You'll need to to be able to reliably UMD your own Timestop and AMF and Mindblank,or get items that activate those on command. Be mindblanked so the Wizard can't scry on you and divinations won't work against you. Use Timestop when you are a bit aways from the wizard. Physically run up to the caster. Contingency can't trigger due to time being stopped. Cast AMF while next to caster. Doing so ends the Time Stop. You are now next to the caster and he now has NONE of his buffs. Proceed to grapple or use Improved Trip or Stand Still to keep him next to you as you beat his face in.

Good bye astral projection/simalucrum/astral projection of a simalucrum. I'll miss thee.

I tend to argue that any wizard worth his salt will have a planar bound or gated creature on contract at all times. Called creatures can stay in antimagic, and most are too much for a monk to reliably handle while keeping his eye on the wizard. Undead also remain in the field, and technically still listen to the caster, unless it's ghoul or higher.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-14, 10:36 PM
That's very much true. And that gives me another (if less viable for low-level mundane characters) method of wizard-killing. Diplomance the wizard until he's fanatically loyal to you, and then order him to go do something really stupid, such as kill everything in the Far Realms without resting, right now.

Mindblank prevents fanatic (it's counted as mind affecting).


The way I rule things, you can kill a wizard using (ironically) a Monk or some other class that gives speed boosts.

You'll need to to be able to reliably UMD your own Timestop and AMF and Mindblank,or get items that activate those on command. Be mindblanked so the Wizard can't scry on you and divinations won't work against you. Use Timestop when you are a bit aways from the wizard. Physically run up to the caster. Contingency can't trigger due to time being stopped. Cast AMF while next to caster. Doing so ends the Time Stop. You are now next to the caster and he now has NONE of his buffs. Proceed to grapple or use Improved Trip or Stand Still to keep him next to you as you beat his face in.

A few problems.
1) Time Stop doesn't prevent a contigency from activating.
2) Mind Blank doesn't block Contact Other Planes, which means that you will be detected.
3) You can't cast AMF while under the effects of a Time Stop. You have to ready an action to cast it when TS ends. Which means celerity can be used.
4) RAW you can use Celerity to interrupt a Time Stop.

Vinotaur
2008-11-14, 10:49 PM
Further problems:

1) Minions as mentioned.
2) Finding the Wizard.
3) AP as mentioned.
4) You just took a standard action, it is now the Wizards turn. He does one of the following:

a) cross class tumble ranks. He is outside the AMF and 60ft up in the air. You lose now.
b) 5ft step, cast Wall of Force. Has all his buffs back, might free action into a Chronotyryn in order to pick up another standard action, a move action, and two swift actions. He could probably just kill you with those.

Now maybe you Monk multiclassed and stuff to get Thicket of Blades and you've got the Mage Slayer feat. But really, you have to go way out on a limb, and you still die all the time because somewhere is a Wizard who is Teleport ambushing Wizard slayers (with his AP). And you have no defense against a Wizard attacking you.

EDIT: And anyone with a single level in Incantatrix can also shut down your entire set up, even if you are adjacent to them, even if you have Thicket of Blades and Mage Slayer.

Frosty
2008-11-14, 11:33 PM
Mindblank prevents fanatic (it's counted as mind affecting).



A few problems.
1) Time Stop doesn't prevent a contigency from activating.
2) Mind Blank doesn't block Contact Other Planes, which means that you will be detected.
3) You can't cast AMF while under the effects of a Time Stop. You have to ready an action to cast it when TS ends. Which means celerity can be used.
4) RAW you can use Celerity to interrupt a Time Stop.

Not the way I see the rules as. Only problem will be Contact Other Planes.

And yes, the monk will of course have a reach weapon, Mage Slayer, Thicket of Blades, etc. In my interpretation, Time Stop does stop contingency, and casting AMF simply dismisses a Time Stop. You *can* use Celerity to interrupt a Timestop, but you have to know someone is casting it first. What is the wizard going to do, Celerity and then Timestop everytime someone within a mile casts Time Stop?

monty
2008-11-14, 11:36 PM
What is the wizard going to do, Celerity and then Timestop everytime someone within a mile casts Time Stop?

Yes. How many people in the world are capable of casting Time Stop? What are the odds that two of those people will meet randomly?

Frosty
2008-11-15, 12:25 AM
Yes. How many people in the world are capable of casting Time Stop? What are the odds that two of those people will meet randomly?

Also, he'd have to be AWARE that someone is casting Timestop in order to use Celerity. I don't see Foresight as being all-powerful. If someone is out of line of sight and casts Timestop, how is the wizard gonna know? Foresight doesn't exactly tell him, "Psst, someone is casting Timestop right now!" It might do something like, "Danger imminent!" and the Wizard will cast Celerity and Timestop. Great. The Monk is still out of sight (probably Hidden) and the Wizard still has no idea *who* the threat is, especially if the Monk is good at Mundane disguises.

chiasaur11
2008-11-15, 12:29 AM
Yes. How many people in the world are capable of casting Time Stop? What are the odds that two of those people will meet randomly?

Depends on the average level in the world, doesn't it?

monty
2008-11-15, 12:34 AM
Depends on the average level in the world, doesn't it?

If there's a lot of high-level casters, then any mage slayer is screwed, because they'll have made a lot of people angry at them.

streakster
2008-11-15, 12:36 AM
If there's a lot of high-level casters, then any mage slayer is screwed, because they'll have made a lot of people angry at them.

Hi! My name is Streakster McWizardington! I'm offering infinity bajillion dollars for the head of a mageslayer! Act now, they're goin' fast!

Frosty
2008-11-15, 12:55 AM
If there's a lot of high-level casters, then any mage slayer is screwed, because they'll have made a lot of people angry at them.

High level casters would be more scared of EACH OTHER.

chiasaur11
2008-11-15, 12:57 AM
High level casters would be more scared of EACH OTHER.

In which case the best tactic is to wait and hope they kill each other.

As usual.

monty
2008-11-15, 01:00 AM
High level casters would be more scared of EACH OTHER.

In which case there wouldn't be very many of them, because they'll have killed each other off. So which is it?

The Glyphstone
2008-11-15, 01:06 AM
Does Tippy have any solution to anything that doesn't involve the word Mindrape? Or is Mindrape just the solution to everything?:smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2008-11-15, 01:10 AM
Damn it. That wench is charging too much. what should do, Tippy? MINDRAPE!!

ericgrau
2008-11-15, 01:14 AM
Step 1: Post a fake build. Go into detail.
Step 2: Someone posts a highly specific strategy for beating that build, says "Haha, casters are uber, just cry in a corner u you have no chance."
Step 3: Post your real build. Note how the spells in step 2 utterly fail against it, even if the caster wins initiative. Revel in your internet victory.

J/k. But one of the best ways to beat a caster really is to catch him unprepared. That can be sneaking up on him (making his initiative roll worth zippo), using unusual tactics (ya, you could win with the right spells, but I'm not waiting 8 hours for your to prepare them), etc. You're not a stealthy character, so try these instead:

Ready action to disrupt a spell. Usually done with a ranged weapon. Not always the best option for 1v1 equal level duels, but I'm assuming you're in a party fighting baddies of varying level. Against casters at a CR at or above your level it'll be well worth it.
Focus on offense. The few minor save bonuses available from feats, wis, etc. are a joke. Except for HP, there's not much that's worth it. It's usually best to focus on offense and put minimal resources into defense when facing magical opponents. I'd still put some minor resources into physical defenses even though that isn't your focus, since those - OTOH - are so crazy cheap to get. Good offensive options include strength and weapon damage enchantments. If you don't have a party caster to haste you then boots of speed are huge. For feats, weapon focus and improved critical aren't too shabby either. Exception: splat book defenses against magic. Though I'll bet others have already posted a million splatbook options to defend against magic for your reading enjoyment.
Be prepared for odd things. Lots of flying casters? Okay, pick up boots of flying, ask the party caster for a fly spell or w/e. Ditto for invisibility, etc. Prep for whatever auto-win your DM likes to use.
Grapple. Become familiar with grapple rules. Note which things are attack actions and what are standard actions. In one round you can grapple, pin, prevent target from speaking for free, then game over, you win (internet guy: "But, um, now just this moment my wizard took the silent feat and prepared silent dimension doors! And enough copies for your inevitable repeat grapples next round! Yeup, blew a lot of my spell slots just for that. Ha!", me: "..."). Especially if you have a party, especially with a rogue, 'cuz grappled targets are denied dex. Armor spikes help too.
Elixers of sneaking and hiding, potions of invisibility, etc.: They don't last, but they can be a great way to bring stealth to a non-stealth character like yourself and/or your whole party if you're planning an assault.
Improved initiative. Of course. But it's not the end-all must have like some might say, especially if (sometimes even if) you're not doing 1v1 duels all the time. If you need a feat slot for a strong offensive ability, get that first.


Hope that helps.

chiasaur11
2008-11-15, 01:15 AM
Step 1: Post a fake build. Go into detail.
Step 2: Someone posts a highly specific strategy for beating that build, says "Haha, casters are uber, just cry in a corner u you have no chance."
Step 3: Post your real build. Note how the spells in step 2 utterly fail against it, even if the caster wins initiative. Revel in your internet victory.

J/k. But one of the best ways to beat a caster really is to catch him unprepared. That can be sneaking up on him (making his initiative roll worth zippo), using unusual tactics (ya, you could win with the right spells, but I'm not waiting 8 hours for your to prepare them), etc. You're not a stealthy character, so try these instead:

Ready action to disrupt a spell. Usually done with a ranged weapon. Not always the best option for 1v1 equal level duels, but I'm assuming you're in a party fighting baddies of varying level. Against casters at a CR at or above your level it'll be well worth it.
Focus on offense. The few minor save bonuses available from feats, wis, etc. are a joke. Except for HP, there's not much that's worth it. It's usually best to focus on offense and put minimal resources into defense when facing magical opponents. I'd still put some minor resources into physical defenses even though that isn't your focus, since those - OTOH - are so crazy cheap to get. Good offensive options include strength and weapon damage enchantments. If you don't have a party caster to haste you then boots of speed are huge. For feats, weapon focus and improved critical aren't too shabby either. Exception: splat book defenses against magic. Though I'll bet others have posted a million such options already.
Be prepared for odd things. Lots of flying casters? Okay, pick up boots of flying, ask the party caster for a fly spell or w/e. Ditto for invisibility, etc. Prep for whatever auto-win your DM likes to use.
Grapple. Become familiar with grapple rules. Note which things are attack actions and what are standard actions. In one round you can grapple, pin, prevent target from speaking for free, then game over, you win (internet guy: "But, um, now just this moment my wizard took the silent feat and prepared silent dimension doors! And enough copies for your inevitable repeat grapples next round! Yeup, blew a lot of my spell slots just for that. Ha!", me: "..."). Especially if you have a party, especially with a rogue, 'cuz grappled targets are denied dex. Armor spikes help too.
Elixers of sneaking and hiding, potions of invisibility, etc.: They don't last, but they can be a great way to bring stealth to a non-stealth character like yourself and/or your whole party if you're planning an assault.
Improved initiative. Of course. But it's not the end-all must have like some might say, especially if (sometimes even if) you're not doing 1v1 duels all the time. If you need a feat slot for a strong offensive ability, get that first.


Hope that helps.

Foresight. Celerity.

Done.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-15, 01:16 AM
Does Tippy have any solution to anything that doesn't involve the word Mindrape? Or is Mindrape just the solution to everything?:smallbiggrin:

When you have a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.

monty
2008-11-15, 01:16 AM
J/k. But one of the best ways to beat a caster really is to catch him unprepared. That can be sneaking up on him (making his initiative roll worth zippo), using unusual tactics (ya, you could win with the right spells, but I'm not waiting 8 hours for your to prepare them), etc.

How are you going to catch him unprepared? Foresight. And he's going back to his personal demiplane to prepare spells, so either you wait or you leave.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-15, 01:25 AM
Does Tippy have any solution to anything that doesn't involve the word Mindrape? Or is Mindrape just the solution to everything?:smallbiggrin:

No. It's just that the only way to get close enough to a paranoid wizard to be able to kill him is by getting him to trust you. Odd's are that he will read your mind at some point, you have to pass the mind scan without revealing your intentions. You also have to get past the daily divination's. Which means that you get mindraped and have a triggering condition to bring back all your memories. So after you get close to the wizard, and after he has asked "Does anyone intend to kill me today?" and all the other divination's that he can ask your memories come back and you are already inside most of his defenses.

The reason you go factotum is for AMF. You're close to the wizard, so you use your AMF, then spend IP for another standard action, and then spend 2 IP to get Int to attack and damage before spending all your remaining IP on Cunning Strike for something like a 10d6 sneak attack.

And the reason the chance of success is only around 10% is that the wizard might just mindrape you for fun and rebuild you, erasing the trigger to bring back your old memories. And you might flub the attack or damage roll's.

I've actually made an Assassin base class that stands a credible chance of offing a paranoid level 20 wizard thanks to his level 20 capstone ability (it's a beefed up version of mindblank that tricks people into thinking that their spell/power/effect actually worked).

Sir Giacomo
2008-11-15, 01:40 PM
The way I rule things, you can kill a wizard using (ironically) a Monk or some other class that gives speed boosts.

You'll need to to be able to reliably UMD your own Timestop and AMF and Mindblank,or get items that activate those on command. Be mindblanked so the Wizard can't scry on you and divinations won't work against you. Use Timestop when you are a bit aways from the wizard. Physically run up to the caster. Contingency can't trigger due to time being stopped. Cast AMF while next to caster. Doing so ends the Time Stop. You are now next to the caster and he now has NONE of his buffs. Proceed to grapple or use Improved Trip or Stand Still to keep him next to you as you beat his face in.

Sniff...(wipes away some tears)....to have waited so long. And slowly people start to realise what can be done.:smallsmile:

Yes Frosty, that is a way to beat casters in high-level combat. There are other ways, but AMF ultimately is going to be part of most of them.
And that combo also overcomes the famed celerity/foresight combo (and note that it is hard to have foresight up 24/7). And since celerity is an entirely optional (non-core) spell to start with, many campaigns will not have that problem in the first place.

For the lower levels? Wizards and sorcerers are easily attackable. So far nobody has come with a way in core up yet that they can survive a surprise attack. And against grappling, most of the casters are helpless (remember, even for freedom of movement you have to be AWARE of the attacker to even get a chance to cast it first, and in a grapple you can't cast it since it has somatic components).
And once contingency is around? Well, you better word that right. Using ortiluke's sphere just freezes you into a spot and your opponent might still simply dispel it, rod of cancellation it or dimension door through it.

To the OP jguy:
ericgrau listed some good ideas for meleers (and ranged tactics) to tackle casters. As Stupendous_Man has suggested already, you can also find quite a lot in the "Beating Batman" guide (see also the link in my sig).

In the guide, I provided an overview of the general strategies available to block caster attacks and spells which I put up here again:


Basically, what would hurt casters most?
Not being able to affect the monk (edit: or here, generally the non-caster opponent) with their magic/effect any magic at all. This can be accomplished by
- blocking their somatic components (grappling)
- blocking their material components (disarming)
- blocking their vocal components (grappling, using silence spell effect)
- blocking all actions (stunning)
- blocking their line of sight (blinding, obscuring vision)
- blocking their line of effect (force effects, use of full cover)
- blocking their area effects (evasion, improved evasion)
- blocking their range (fast moving out of range. Great vs summons and the usual temporary buffs that you recognised before with Spellcraft)
- blocking their refreshment methods (attacking during prayer, learning, disrupting sleep etc.)
- blocking all magic (Anti-magic-field, spell resistance, saving throws, certain force effects; although recent magic item compendium rules which can be seen to update the core rules appear to have AMF no longer block line of effect for magic – courtesy Lord_Silvanos. It is irrelevant for the AMF grappling tactics, though.).


Now, mostlyharmful brought up a major issue:
How do you find hiding enemy casters in the first place?
Several answers:
1. Normally, the casters you face as a player are npc casters. The BBEG. The tyrant who allegedly lives in castle xy and terrorises the country. Help!
The whole adventure normally revolves about finding the BBEG caster, defeating his tricks and his minions. And in the end, there are quite a few spells available to the DM to provide an obsucre death scenario for the BBEG caster to return. No problem here for meleer characters.
2. Then, since npc casters are normally not paranoid caster pcs trying to avoid every conceivable thing the DM throws at them (bound to fail, but anyhow, some players apparently try), then you can expect that said npcs will make their presence known somehow. Say, the great wyrm caster, terror of a whole continent, attacks the village where the pcs live. Yes, it appears as if the pcs will be able to find him.
3. There are several ways to locate a spellcaster, some with spells/magic again - and this does not mean that meleers are useless as some would mistakenly maintain (otherwise, swinging swords against others who swing swords would be useless).
Magical ways:
- contact other plane, legend lore and various other divination spells. In case the enemy spell caster is protected by mind blank, try to learn about associates of said spellcaster and scry/divination spell those. Only the paranoid single level 20 archmage in his own plane of existence will be hard to tackle. But guess what: said archmage will remain on his plane and not matter for the campaign.
Non-magical ways:
- gather information and bardic knowledge are some ideas to start with (you can find out at high DCs a powerful wizard's childhodd nickname etc.)

Hope that provides some first ideas

- Giacomo

Gorbash
2008-11-15, 02:02 PM
Yes Frosty, that is a way to beat casters in high-level combat. There are other ways

Yes, be a wizard of higher lvl. But those don't include partially charged wands and natural 20s on UMD. :/

Yukitsu
2008-11-15, 02:15 PM
Also, he'd have to be AWARE that someone is casting Timestop in order to use Celerity. I don't see Foresight as being all-powerful. If someone is out of line of sight and casts Timestop, how is the wizard gonna know? Foresight doesn't exactly tell him, "Psst, someone is casting Timestop right now!" It might do something like, "Danger imminent!" and the Wizard will cast Celerity and Timestop. Great. The Monk is still out of sight (probably Hidden) and the Wizard still has no idea *who* the threat is, especially if the Monk is good at Mundane disguises.

"In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself"

Which means he doesn't know why, but he does know to use celerity. :smalltongue:

Sir Giacamo, if I build a wizard prior to your challenge, and you send an ambush challenge to another person, would that sufficiently prove wizards can survive ambushes, even with a generic list? Level 20 core of course.

I define core as the system reference documents, BTW.

Sir Giacomo
2008-11-15, 02:36 PM
"In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself"

Which means he doesn't know why, but he does know to use celerity. :smalltongue:

Sir Giacamo, if I build a wizard prior to your challenge, and you send an ambush challenge to another person, would that sufficiently prove wizards can survive ambushes, even with a generic list? Level 20 core of course.

I define core as the system reference documents, BTW.

"general idea" does not sound like some useful game mechanics to me. Luckily, the spell specifies what is meant in game terms with "general idea". You get an insight bonus and you're not flat-footed, for instance. That's all.

And you misunderstood what I posted above. I was wondering about wizards of level 1-10. How can they defend themselves vs an ambush?
Post that. No need to make huge builds. Just point out the spells or other means.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2008-11-15, 02:39 PM
Yes, be a wizard of higher lvl. But those don't include partially charged wands and natural 20s on UMD. :/

Yep, natural 20s will be all you need. Luckily, most non-caster builds will have more than just a +11 to their UMD skill (and I do not need to show anymore how it is done, just follow the link in my sig.
And...AMF cannot be put into a wand.
A wizard using said AMF tactics is fairly stupid since all he has is a dagger to poke the enemy caster with. Great.

- Giacomo

monty
2008-11-15, 02:40 PM
So, in other words, you beat a caster by...pretending to be a caster.

streakster
2008-11-15, 02:49 PM
So, in other words, you beat a caster by...pretending to be a caster.

But spending more and succeeding less!

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-15, 02:56 PM
Why do I get the feeling that this thread concerning the nigh invincibility of wizards is going to somehow end up as a discussion as to why monks are a horrible class in which their sole chance for adequacy comes from trying to be as wizardly as possible?

chiasaur11
2008-11-15, 03:09 PM
Why do I get the feeling that this thread concerning the nigh invincibility of wizards is going to somehow end up as a discussion as to why monks are a horrible class in which their sole chance for adequacy comes from trying to be as wizardly as possible?

Maybe you took a level of psion?

You're not just psychic. You're future psychic!

Yukitsu
2008-11-15, 03:36 PM
"general idea" does not sound like some useful game mechanics to me. Luckily, the spell specifies what is meant in game terms with "general idea". You get an insight bonus and you're not flat-footed, for instance. That's all.

And you misunderstood what I posted above. I was wondering about wizards of level 1-10. How can they defend themselves vs an ambush?
Post that. No need to make huge builds. Just point out the spells or other means.

- Giacomo

Find, buy or whatever a beholder corpse, then animate it. Stay ~50 feet above the ground at all times in a massive hollowed out skull. Not only does this look absolutely bad*** but provides you with a good measure of protection, and dare I say it, style. Since I'm not optimizing, and this is clearly a stylish wizard, planar bind a bunch of succubi. If they don't follow along, just keep trying. Succubi aren't actually all that threatening at this level, and are almost a non-threat by CR. Now you have flying eyes to keep a watch out for things approaching your beholder skull throne, as they have +19 to spot and listen. Pay them in the souls of the people who oppose your tyranical rule, for the small price of spotting for you and looking awesome. Offer even better rewards if they actively protect you. At this point, you are already immune to the grapple that you mentioned, as well as most lock downs. You can see most things coming (even invisible flyers will be spotted by a +19 spot.) making it hard to approach to catch me unaware.

Make sure to cast a few protection spells on your beholder throne, such as protection from arrows. You don't want some smarmy guy cramping your style by bringing you to the ground. At level 10, the spell will last through the typical adventuring day.

Have a shambling horde of undead ready somewhere. They make a nice roadblock.

Be ready to teleport away at a moments notice. He who runs away etc.

Sleep in a rope trick, even if you're somewhere with a safe bed.

At this point, all you need to worry about are casters and some flyers. Melee flat fails, because you're in the air, and you have too much cover for an archer to be overly effective. Protection from arrows isn't helping much. Rule of thumb, if enemy caster looks dangerous enough, retreat until you know more about them. If they know about you, for instance, don't tangle with them until you have the same advantage.

Getting attacked by flyers is pretty common for some campaigns. In those cases, you just have to out fight them. You're on even ground so to speak, and can usually blast them. Flight seems to change CR by a largish margin, so they are probably only about CR 8s if flight isn't an advantage against you.

Play the chessmaster. The rest of your party, and the things they are fighting are merely pieces in your master plan. Change the terrain, influence the course of the battle subtly. You are above being a blaster. That's for the people on the ground. It can also give the illusion that you aren't a threat. Scoff. The fact that you're fighting from a throne that literaly hovers over the battlefield, you can see how chessmastering is appropriate here.

Laugh. Laugh a lot.

The only thing you really need to look out for? Other casters. Getting ambushed by other casters is bad, or having the barbarian dimension doored into your skeletal flying thrown room. The answer to the latter is to have beads draped around the inside, which not only makes you look enigmatic, but prevents teleports from working. The answer to the former is to be a more optimized and prepared wizard than the other one.

Below 7 most people agree that ambushes work on wizards, however. It's just past 7 that a smart one (not optimal) can manage, and by 9 it's getting ridiculous.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-11-15, 04:02 PM
Isn't it the obscene levels of power that the Wizards have that brought on the 4th edition? Break DND much?

Well, there was no mention of limitations on books or anything that I saw, so here is my melee entry for the spellcaster killer, and a damn good job she did too:

Saturnine

Quickened Ascended Mist Elf
Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Swordsage 5/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Dervish 10 (ECL22 / CR27)

FORT 20 / REF 26 / WILL 22

Ascended Mist Elf is from the Quintessential Elf series (is 3.5x compatilble).
Ripper Chain is from the Quintessential Drow (is 3.5x compatilble).
Uses the same feats as a Spiked Chain, only it is Slashing damage ad does more damage

Sorcerer spellcasting equivalent to character level. Does not need it, though.

Immunity to Fire, Enchantment and Necromancy. Gotta love the Green Ronin Advanced Players Handbook.

Blade Dancer Fighting Style (Again, Quint. Elf)

Stats after items and modifiers STR 20 / INT 18 / DEX 40 / CON 16 / WIS 20 / CHA 26

Has SR36 (after base and some enhancements)

Flight Speed 140'/G (Oathbound Prestige Race granted this)

Ground Speed 60'

AC 51, Touch 51 (all Force and DEX) FF36

Init: somewhere in the 30's

6 attacks / Round as the character has Two Weapon Fighting (Fighting style).

I needn't go on any further.

The battle that I had, 1 on 1, against an Epic level Wizard went like this:

Initiative:
Me: 32
Him: 12

I flying charge (do a full attack) and hit with all 6 chain attacks. Hell, if I hit with only one chain attack he could cast a spell with a concentration check that high. Since I did do a lot (and by a lot, I mean tons) over 10 damage, I was allowed a free trip attempt with my chain, due to the Knock Down feat. Trip was successful, and I got a 7th attack, which critted. I did somewheres near 150 or 170 damage to him.

His round: Stabilization check: Success. What?

My Round:
Used merely Sapphire Nightmare Blade, a 1st level maneuver, to kill him.

Spells mean nothing if you can't beat initiative. Preparation rounds we allowed. I don't know what he used to prepare, but it was not enough. He should have Wished to get out of the battle. He could have summoned all the mooks that he wanted, but he didn't. He could have used Invisbility (but wait, I have True Seeing). He could have Time Stop'ed, and cast even more of the preparation spells that he could have thought of, and it still would not have mattered. Forcecage? Meh. Oooh, wall of Force. I can fly over or around it and still have enough movement to reach him. Finger of Death? Oh boy. Even if I would have failed the Will save, I still am immune to Necromancy spells.

While it being true that the Epic Wizard has more power than they should, they can still be beat.

Yukitsu
2008-11-15, 04:07 PM
It doesn't mean much when you have a caster level higher than the level 20 wizard. :smallamused:

olentu
2008-11-15, 04:10 PM
That epic wizard was doing a really bad job what with not using celerity not to mention any epic spells.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-11-15, 04:12 PM
It doesn't mean much when you have a caster level higher than the level 20 wizard. :smallamused:

I never used any of the spells that I got from being a sorcerer. I stated specifically that I did not use any of the spells. Besides, in the post statement; True seeing is a low level spell that the Wizard has. :smallbiggrin:. the battle did not last long because I was built to destroy spellcasters, and I have melee ability, while the Wizard did not.

The point was to prove the melee still has to be respected at higher levels. Wizards are too powerful. There are too many spells. Spellcasters should not be able to use a spell like 'Time Stop', or any manipulation of time IMO.

Yukitsu
2008-11-15, 04:15 PM
I never used any of the spells that I got from being a sorcerer. I stated specifically that I did not use any of the spells. Besides, in the post statement; True seeing is a low level spell that the Wizard has. :smallbiggrin:. the battle did not last long because I was built to destroy spellcasters, and I have melee ability, while the Wizard did not.

The point was to prove the melee still has to be respected at higher levels. Wizards are too powerful. There are too many spells. Spellcasters should not be able to use a spell like 'Time Stop', or any manipulation of time IMO.

My only question is, why was a wizard over 15 physically there? If he weren't, you'd have to rely on your casting, and frankly, wizards are just better at casting duels than sorcerers.

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-15, 04:25 PM
So you're argument is that with enough splat books you can eventually become a viable opponent to a caster? I should point out that in this case your epic level opponent didn't really do anything that seems consistent with a strategy someone of epic levels would utilize. The wizard essentially just stood there, right next to you, and did nothing. So in essence your character is fantastic against opponents who stand there and do nothing. Congratulations. If you can show me how this character bypasses the foresight, celerity, time stop, engaging at max range, contact other plane, and the rest of the wizard's repertoire you would be making a much stronger case.

Remember that there's always a limit to what resources are available. Saying you can use any book which declares itself to be compatible is one step shy of saying 'because I said so.' If a pamphlet came out that said it was 3.5 compatible and let you rewrite your stats however you pleased would you honestly think it was balanced?

Yukitsu
2008-11-15, 04:33 PM
Remember that there's always a limit to what resources are available. Saying you can use any book which declares itself to be compatible is one step shy of saying 'because I said so.' If a pamphlet came out that said it was 3.5 compatible and let you rewrite your stats however you pleased would you honestly think it was balanced?

Nah, let him use the splats. Just means everyone else gets to use them too, and when you consider that, his melee build isn't all that impressive. :smallwink: Once everyone is using that amount of splat full casters have funcionally limitless options. Especially wizards and clerics.

chiasaur11
2008-11-15, 04:33 PM
So you're argument is that with enough splat books you can eventually become a viable opponent to a caster? I should point out that in this case your epic level opponent didn't really do anything that seems consistent with a strategy someone of epic levels would utilize. The wizard essentially just stood there, right next to you, and did nothing. So in essence your character is fantastic against opponents who stand there and do nothing. Congratulations. If you can show me how this character bypasses the foresight, celerity, time stop, engaging at max range, contact other plane, and the rest of the wizard's repertoire you would be making a much stronger case.

Remember that there's always a limit to what resources are available. Saying you can use any book which declares itself to be compatible is one step shy of saying 'because I said so.' If a pamphlet came out that said it was 3.5 compatible and let you rewrite your stats however you pleased would you honestly think it was balanced?

No, of course not.

I mean, it's part of 3.5, of course it's not balanced.

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-15, 04:42 PM
No, of course not.

I mean, it's part of 3.5, of course it's not balanced.

Just trying to keep the dream alive. Maybe, one day, after the nuclear apocalypse ruins civilizations the survivors will drag themselves from the rubble, covered with the dirt and grime from a conflict which nearly destroyed the world and vow to work towards a better future. A future in which gas prices stay below $2 a gallon, food comes in delicious pill forms, in which world peace flourishes and a fighter can fight a caster and have a reasonable chance at success.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-15, 04:42 PM
No, of course not.

I mean, it's part of 3.5, of course it's not balanced.

IIRC it's actually a third party book (not published by WotC).

Khanderas
2008-11-15, 04:45 PM
I've been thinking on the best way for a melee oriented person like a fighter or barbarian to kill a caster. Assuming both are high levels since a caster can be killed by a punch to the head at low levels. Would that spellcaster hunter from complete warrior be a good idea?

Oh, quick question. Is there a feat that lets you use your fortitude saves instead of will? I swear I saw it before but can't remember
I have not yet read the replies, but my guess will be, whatever anyone comes up with, there will always be a "wizard wins anyway because of ...".
According to some (truthfully or not) casters always wins and if they lose, they rewrite reality and win anyway.

jguy
2008-11-15, 05:23 PM
God, this thread is starting to hurt my brain. Stupid OP Wizards...

Yukitsu
2008-11-15, 05:42 PM
But we haven't even gone into the abusive things they can do yet. :smalleek:

jguy
2008-11-15, 05:59 PM
I am afraid to even ask...

chiasaur11
2008-11-15, 06:37 PM
Just trying to keep the dream alive. Maybe, one day, after the nuclear apocalypse ruins civilizations the survivors will drag themselves from the rubble, covered with the dirt and grime from a conflict which nearly destroyed the world and vow to work towards a better future. A future in which gas prices stay below $2 a gallon, food comes in delicious pill forms, in which world peace flourishes and a fighter can fight a caster and have a reasonable chance at success.

Yeah, it'll be great.

Except for those dang Supermutants.

Yukitsu
2008-11-15, 06:48 PM
I am afraid to even ask...

You're no fun. :smallwink:

Frosty
2008-11-15, 07:43 PM
Sniff...(wipes away some tears)....to have waited so long. And slowly people start to realise what can be done.:smallsmile:

Well to be honest, what I'm doing is not Monk-specific. It can do be with many other classes, and is probably better done with classes that get UMD as a class skill. Monk does provide a nice speed boost though, but they're not the only ones that get a speed boost. I'd probably dip a fewlevels in monks just for the bonus feats, the 10ft speed increase, and then maybe do a fewlevelsof Scout, Barbarian, etc. Dipping one level of Cleric with the Magic domain also helps with being ableto use the right item.

But the fact that I have to use all of these scrolls and items that replicate magic just shows how magic is all-powerful in 3.5, Kinda dumb, but you can't beat casters without magic in some form or another.

Vinotaur
2008-11-15, 08:06 PM
Well to be honest, what I'm doing is not Monk-specific. It can do be with many other classes, and is probably better done with classes that get UMD as a class skill. Monk does provide a nice speed boost though, but they're not the only ones that get a speed boost. I'd probably dip a fewlevels in monks just for the bonus feats, the 10ft speed increase, and then maybe do a fewlevelsof Scout, Barbarian, etc. Dipping one level of Cleric with the Magic domain also helps with being ableto use the right item.

But the fact that I have to use all of these scrolls and items that replicate magic just shows how magic is all-powerful in 3.5, Kinda dumb, but you can't beat casters without magic in some form or another.

Actually, Monk is totally useless to your build. You have to take 12 levels of Monk before it gives you any speed increase at all. And even if you take 18 levels of monk you are still not much faster then a Barbarian 1/anything 17 with boots of speed. Also a noticeably worse combatant.

Heck, I'm sure there are classes out there that provide stacking speed increases so if you want to go for speed you probably want as few monk levels as possible.

To have any benefit over Barbarian with boots of speed you need a minimum of 12 monk levels. And would you rather be a Monk 12/Rogue 1/X 3 trying to survive in the big bad world or a Rogue 1/Barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior 4/Slayer 10.

Also, I'm pretty sure that you'd want to be that second character anywhere along the progression from 1-20.

SurlySeraph
2008-11-15, 11:38 PM
@^: Um... no, Monk's first speed increase is at 3rd level. Of course, that's 1 more level than is really useful.

One note on Foresight – it’s only 10 min/level. Even a wizard with 30 Int would need to have CL 30 to have it up for 24 hours, and that's if he spent all of his 9th-level spell slots on it. Doing so is not only very expensive in terms of CL and Int increasing items, but doesn't give him any spell slots left for Time Stop, Wish, Gate and other necessities. Granted, a wizard only really needs Foresight for 16 hours a day, since he'll spend the rest hiding in his MMM preparing spells. But that's still a lot of money and spell slots. I think the extent to which a wizard can win without preparation has been exaggerated a bit. Sure, the wizard will walk all over anything if he's prepared his spells for that, and he can avoid any attack if he's prepared for that. But he can't do both in the same day.

EDIT: You know what? I'm too sleep-deprived to know what I'm talking about. Wizards are awesome. Please disregard whatever I'm trying to argue here.

Starbuck_II
2008-11-15, 11:55 PM
@^: Um... no, Monk's first speed increase is at 3rd level. Of course, that's 1 more level than is really useful.

One note on Foresight – it’s only 10 min/level. Even a wizard with 30 Int would need to have CL 30 to have it up for 24 hours, and that's if he spent all of his 9th-level spell slots on it. Doing so is not only very expensive in terms of CL and Int increasing items, but doesn't give him any spell slots left for Time Stop, Wish, Gate and other necessities. Granted, a wizard only really needs Foresight for 16 hours a day, since he'll spend the rest hiding in his MMM preparing spells. But that's still a lot of money and spell slots. I think the extent to which a wizard can win without preparation has been exaggerated a bit. Sure, the wizard will walk all over anything if he's prepared his spells for that, and he can avoid any attack if he's prepared for that. But he can't do both in the same day.

Scout 3 gives Immunity to being flatfoot as well. Sure you lose some caster level by taking 3 levels in Scout: but hey you get Foresights benefit.

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-16, 12:01 AM
Unless they're an incantatrix and persist it for free

Eldritch_Ent
2008-11-16, 12:02 AM
One note on Foresight – it’s only 10 min/level. .

Upping CL isn't that hard- I mean, Magical Tattoo Feat, Ioun stone, that's +2 right there... Ring of Arcane Might increases it too, IIRC, And there are various feats that increase your effective CL when it comes to certains chools of magic... Assuming a +4 total CL increase to Divination, you get 240 minutes per casting- 3 hours. Grab a Greater Rod of Extend, and it doubles to 480 minutes. That's 8 hours- more than enough for a wizard to get things done for the day and retire to his "Mansion".

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-16, 12:04 AM
@^: Um... no, Monk's first speed increase is at 3rd level. Of course, that's 1 more level than is really useful.It's an enhancement bonus to speed, so it doesn't stack with Haste or Boots of Speed. A character can get the same speed as a Monk fairly easily until high levels through those. And of course the Caster is always faster thanks to Phantom Steed.

Haven
2008-11-16, 12:37 AM
(edit: After re-reading this post I realized I'm being kind of a downer to the spirit of hypothetical situations. If so, I apologize.)

As usual, I think the Giant has the answer. Specifically, in this article (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html).

Wizards don't know RAW. Wizards can be tripped up by laziness, overconfidence, irrationality etc. The only wizard who will always have all of the preparations up all the time to the very most effective limit is nothing more than a hypothetical construct or a collection of stats. Being hypothetical, there are a greater variety of assumptions at work here than you think, the biggest one being that the wizard is operating in a complete vacuum, the second biggest that the wizard has a very specific kind of personality: a paranoid control freak that knows how every damn thing work exactly and has enough will to be able to use it effectively.

Not every caster has that personality, and those you can kill. And as for the casters that do have that personality, or as close as you can get in an actual world - why would you want to kill them? They'll never take any action that could put them at risk, so they're already neutralized. If they do take an action that could put them at risk, the laws of probability mean that if they take enough of those actions, one of those chances will be the one that kills them.

Yukitsu
2008-11-16, 01:35 AM
(edit: After re-reading this post I realized I'm being kind of a downer to the spirit of hypothetical situations. If so, I apologize.)

As usual, I think the Giant has the answer. Specifically, in this article (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html).

Wizards don't know RAW. Wizards can be tripped up by laziness, overconfidence, irrationality etc. The only wizard who will always have all of the preparations up all the time to the very most effective limit is nothing more than a hypothetical construct or a collection of stats. Being hypothetical, there are a greater variety of assumptions at work here than you think, the biggest one being that the wizard is operating in a complete vacuum, the second biggest that the wizard has a very specific kind of personality: a paranoid control freak that knows how every damn thing work exactly and has enough will to be able to use it effectively.

Not every caster has that personality, and those you can kill. And as for the casters that do have that personality, or as close as you can get in an actual world - why would you want to kill them? They'll never take any action that could put them at risk, so they're already neutralized. If they do take an action that could put them at risk, the laws of probability mean that if they take enough of those actions, one of those chances will be the one that kills them.

Oh, I don't know. Above I described a tenth level wizard that was on a flying skull throne, with his sexy demonic body guards who spends time playing chess with his party to bring ruin to the many to swell his ranks of undead, and to feed his demonic mistresses. :smallsmile: Plenty of personality, but still very, very hard for anything CR appropriate to crack. He can afford to be aggressive and out there shaking things up, but realistically, little at that level can get him.

Sir Giacomo
2008-11-16, 06:20 AM
Well to be honest, what I'm doing is not Monk-specific. It can do be with many other classes, and is probably better done with classes that get UMD as a class skill. Monk does provide a nice speed boost though, but they're not the only ones that get a speed boost. I'd probably dip a fewlevels in monks just for the bonus feats, the 10ft speed increase, and then maybe do a fewlevelsof Scout, Barbarian, etc. Dipping one level of Cleric with the Magic domain also helps with being ableto use the right item.

But the fact that I have to use all of these scrolls and items that replicate magic just shows how magic is all-powerful in 3.5, Kinda dumb, but you can't beat casters without magic in some form or another.

Well, I remember having discussed that tactics (based on a monk/joker monk build) with Emperor Tippy once in a different thread (forgotten where).
But, of course the tactics can be employed by anyone who uses UMD and all kinds of builds. The rogue can use UMD and thus AMF best, but has the (minor) problem of not guaranteeing sneaks once he has locked down the wizard in the AMF (possibly he can get the caster flat-flooted, though).

What makes AMF so deadly in the hands of non-casters is that they still have (non-magical) ways of offense to ascertain the defeat of a caster inside the AMF.
Casters using that? Not so much.
And of course magic is all-powerful for the very high levels in a fantasy campaign, since it embodies the supernatural. However, the classes and items are designed in such a way that eventually everyone has access to magic, not only the casters.
Some magic then is even deadlier in the hands of non-casters (e.g. enlarge, polymorph, haste, AMF) than in the hands of casters. Which is also reinforcing the team aspect of the game, since some buffs for non-casters are disproportionately more useful. Some view this as weakness of non-caster classes, which I have difficulty to understand in a group game.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2008-11-16, 08:40 AM
Find, buy or whatever a beholder corpse, then animate it. Stay ~50 feet above the ground at all times in a massive hollowed out skull. Not only does this look absolutely bad*** but provides you with a good measure of protection, and dare I say it, style.

Yes, it definitely is stylish! Unfortunately, it runs into several problems
1) how can you, at levels 1-10, get hold of a beholder corpse to animate? It's not that you can hope on your party being able to defeat such a monster yet.
2) animate dead does not create flying undead
3) Your style comes at a cost, and I do not mean the 25gp per HD for your often-to-be-destroyed undead guard: nobody will wish to invite you to parties anymore...:smallsmile:

Since I'm not optimizing, and this is clearly a stylish wizard, planar bind a bunch of succubi. If they don't follow along, just keep trying. Succubi aren't actually all that threatening at this level, and are almost a non-threat by CR. Now you have flying eyes to keep a watch out for things approaching your beholder skull throne, as they have +19 to spot and listen. Pay them in the souls of the people who oppose your tyranical rule, for the small price of spotting for you and looking awesome. Offer even better rewards if they actively protect you.

Again, very stylish, but running into various problems, including the rules:
1) even in case you are successful with the lesser planar binding (there are will saves and SR to consider, among other things), you'll need a CHR check to get your will done (vs the Succubus CHR 26, good luck there:smallwink:), plus it is entirely up to the DM how much they will ask in payment. Plus, you need a new payment every 24 hours.
2) With the succubi, you'll get invited more often to parties, true, but only initially so...:smallbiggrin:

At this point, you are already immune to the grapple that you mentioned, as well as most lock downs. You can see most things coming (even invisible flyers will be spotted by a +19 spot.) making it hard to approach to catch me unaware.

In your place, I'd simply leave the spotting help to your familiar and do not get those unreliable succubi. They're evil and chaotic and will twist their service not always to your liking ("oops, should I have told you I saw those fighters running at you? I thought a powerful mage like you had defenses against puny mortals such as those..."). Similar, btw, to other evil stuff you can planar bind.
And even in case your wizard somehow surrounds himself with a body guard of skeletons plus some succubi, a non-caster with tumble or the necessary feats will reach you still and initiate the grapple.

Make sure to cast a few protection spells on your beholder throne, such as protection from arrows. You don't want some smarmy guy cramping your style by bringing you to the ground. At level 10, the spell will last through the typical adventuring day.

Protection from arrows at level 10? Don't make me laugh. Everyone and their moms has magical bows, missiles, by that time, and if they don't they're usually some kobold minions who do not pose a threat, anyhow. Note: boulders thrown by giants are non-magical, but the pfa doesn't help against thsoe...:smallsmile:

Have a shambling horde of undead ready somewhere. They make a nice roadblock.

They do. Unfortunately by level 10, they do not pose an obstacle to non-casters anymore.

Be ready to teleport away at a moments notice. He who runs away etc.

Yep, but at a moment's notice means: win the initiative, be not surprise. A rogue, monk or ranger at that level can easily beat even the succubus' +19 spot check.

Sleep in a rope trick, even if you're somewhere with a safe bed.

Yep, that is a useful spell. But unfortunately it's static. So no help when walking around, which is normally when the adventure happens.

At this point, all you need to worry about are casters and some flyers. Melee flat fails, because you're in the air, and you have too much cover for an archer to be overly effective. Protection from arrows isn't helping much. Rule of thumb, if enemy caster looks dangerous enough, retreat until you know more about them. If they know about you, for instance, don't tangle with them until you have the same advantage.

Look at the monsters of CR 6-10 in the SRD. You'll be surprised how many can fly (faster than your overland flight, anyhow) or have ranged attacks available.

Getting attacked by flyers is pretty common for some campaigns. In those cases, you just have to out fight them. You're on even ground so to speak, and can usually blast them. Flight seems to change CR by a largish margin, so they are probably only about CR 8s if flight isn't an advantage against you.

No, you are not on even ground. Flying, the wizard is as vulnerable vs flying monsters, as on the ground.

Play the chessmaster. The rest of your party, and the things they are fighting are merely pieces in your master plan. Change the terrain, influence the course of the battle subtly. You are above being a blaster. That's for the people on the ground. It can also give the illusion that you aren't a threat. Scoff. The fact that you're fighting from a throne that literaly hovers over the battlefield, you can see how chessmastering is appropriate here.

WHAT? Oh nos! Beware of many posters opposing any such tactics (I remember I received flak once because I suggested a monk should be buffed by pc casters or use his wands for him when his UMD is still low in combat. They hated that the monk just used casters as "pawns" :smallcool:)

Laugh. Laugh a lot.

I did about your ideas. Do not get me wrong - they are cool, and could work with a lot of houseruling.

The only thing you really need to look out for? Other casters. Getting ambushed by other casters is bad, or having the barbarian dimension doored into your skeletal flying thrown room. The answer to the latter is to have beads draped around the inside, which not only makes you look enigmatic, but prevents teleports from working. The answer to the former is to be a more optimized and prepared wizard than the other one.

Methinks that a charging barbarian at level 10 is something the wizard should look out for much the same as enemy spellcasters.

Below 7 most people agree that ambushes work on wizards, however. It's just past 7 that a smart one (not optimal) can manage, and by 9 it's getting ridiculous.

Ridiculous? Hmmm, yes, if you hope for a very lenient DM ignoring the rules.

- Giacomo

streakster
2008-11-16, 10:47 AM
3) Your style comes at a cost, and I do not mean the 25gp per HD for your often-to-be-destroyed undead guard: nobody will wish to invite you to parties anymore...:smallsmile:


Succubi. Trust me, there will be parties.

Sir Giacomo
2008-11-16, 11:50 AM
That's what I noted when commenting on the succubi idea....:smallwink:

- Giacomo

PS: for a sorcerer it would definitely be more feasible and stylish btw, rather than for a necromancer...

Yukitsu
2008-11-16, 01:39 PM
Yes, it definitely is stylish! Unfortunately, it runs into several problems
1) how can you, at levels 1-10, get hold of a beholder corpse to animate? It's not that you can hope on your party being able to defeat such a monster yet.

In theory, post an adventure billet for a level 13 party at your local tavern. If other people can make insipid fetch quests, why can't I? :smallwink: I do have to admit, I don't know how to calculate that, however.


2) animate dead does not create flying undead

Actually, supernatural flight is retained in skeletons, and EX flight is maintained by zombies.


3) Your style comes at a cost, and I do not mean the 25gp per HD for your often-to-be-destroyed undead guard: nobody will wish to invite you to parties anymore...:smallsmile:

I just have to hang at different parties. Ones with creepy necromancers, demonologists and vampires. :smallbiggrin:


Again, very stylish, but running into various problems, including the rules:
1) even in case you are successful with the lesser planar binding (there are will saves and SR to consider, among other things), you'll need a CHR check to get your will done (vs the Succubus CHR 26, good luck there:smallwink:), plus it is entirely up to the DM how much they will ask in payment. Plus, you need a new payment every 24 hours.

Payment for service gives up to +6. If they like not being in danger and getting souls, it's a high mod, if it's not, I thank them for their time and keep trying. A +6 is equivalent to a 22 charisma, which means I need a 10 charisma and a +4 charisma spell to break even. If I had a positive charisma (and if you are playing it like this, you should) you have an edge, or can get away with the request on slightly more difficult cases. :smalltongue: And payment is 24 hours for planar ally, which wizards don't get. A planar binding doesn't have conditions for regularity of payment. You can dismiss them easily enough if they don't want to play along. Remember to be polite, in case you wind up calling them again.


2) With the succubi, you'll get invited more often to parties, true, but only initially so...:smallbiggrin:

Gets easier at later levels when you can cast deathward on people. :smalltongue:


In your place, I'd simply leave the spotting help to your familiar and do not get those unreliable succubi. They're evil and chaotic and will twist their service not always to your liking ("oops, should I have told you I saw those fighters running at you? I thought a powerful mage like you had defenses against puny mortals such as those..."). Similar, btw, to other evil stuff you can planar bind.

With planar binding, they are forced to work on the conditions you lay out. If you are sufficiently careful, that's not a problem. Since it's spot/listen, simply give them the task of giving verbal and gestural warning prior to any contact with other creatures discluding "Insert member names here" for payment of the souls of those defeated. It will miss some things, like crazy plants, but most of those can't get your from that height.


And even in case your wizard somehow surrounds himself with a body guard of skeletons plus some succubi, a non-caster with tumble or the necessary feats will reach you still and initiate the grapple.

From 50 feet in the air? :smalltongue: The body guard is for style and eyes. The skeletons are to be an inconvenience. Unsentient undead should be used as terrain. The real hampering factor is flight, which makes things drastically harder for martial types.


Protection from arrows at level 10? Don't make me laugh. Everyone and their moms has magical bows, missiles, by that time, and if they don't they're usually some kobold minions who do not pose a threat, anyhow. Note: boulders thrown by giants are non-magical, but the pfa doesn't help against thsoe...:smallsmile:

Actually, most people have mundane bows if they are melee. If you are fighting a dedicated archer, you have to use something like windwall. Protection from arrows works at that level because more things don't have a magical secondary weapon, and they can't use melee. Non-dedicated archery types usually won't down you that quickly. Dedicated archers cramp your style, but often in a manner that allows plenty of time to escape or do something about them, like a solid fog. :smalltongue:


They do. Unfortunately by level 10, they do not pose an obstacle to non-casters anymore.

They actually do. They don't pose a threat should be a better assertion. They do get in the way, prevent movement from being at full speed, and generally are there to slow people on the ground to a crawl.


Yep, but at a moment's notice means: win the initiative, be not surprise. A rogue, monk or ranger at that level can easily beat even the succubus' +19 spot check.

Not if they want to move. They also can't fly. :smallamused:


Yep, that is a useful spell. But unfortunately it's static. So no help when walking around, which is normally when the adventure happens.

You walk in your sleep? :smallconfused:


Look at the monsters of CR 6-10 in the SRD. You'll be surprised how many can fly (faster than your overland flight, anyhow) or have ranged attacks available.

I said that CR 10 flyers have a massive advantage for having fly. It actually seems to increase CR by 1-2 in most cases, so even though they are flyers, most are easier to beat than most grounded monsters, or they are easy to see from a distance and shoot down, or if it's something like a dragon, has weaknesses. If you can't exploit those weaknesses, you can simply leave, because you can also see them from far away.


No, you are not on even ground. Flying, the wizard is as vulnerable vs flying monsters, as on the ground.

And they are as vulnerable as the wizard. :smalltongue: The point of flying is, melee stops working unless you also fly, or you need ranged attacks. A flying wizard isn't at a disadvantage from being in the air against flyers, and can continue to excersise all of his options. Also, the CR adjustment for being able to fly lowers the threat a little bit, since flying isn't helping the flyer avoid any of the wizard attacks.


WHAT? Oh nos! Beware of many posters opposing any such tactics (I remember I received flak once because I suggested a monk should be buffed by pc casters or use his wands for him when his UMD is still low in combat. They hated that the monk just used casters as "pawns" :smallcool:)

Using UMD when it's low in combat is usually a bad idea, and buffs aren't control. It's more things like modifying terrain, Evard's black tentacles, any of those fog spells, any wall spells etc. Buffing is best when done before combat, as any persist cleric will tell you. You basically just yell orders at the pawns, put more pieces on your side of the table, and change the table. Upgrading pieces isn't usually the best idea. You should upgrade them before they are placed on the field.


I did about your ideas. Do not get me wrong - they are cool, and could work with a lot of houseruling.

Why thank you. :smallsmile:


Methinks that a charging barbarian at level 10 is something the wizard should look out for much the same as enemy spellcasters.

Barbs can't fly. :smallbiggrin:


Ridiculous? Hmmm, yes, if you hope for a very lenient DM ignoring the rules.

No, going over, I'm not ignoring them. I do assume repeat tries, but I'm certainly not ignoring them. :smalltongue:


PS: for a sorcerer it would definitely be more feasible and stylish btw, rather than for a necromancer...

Generalist caster with at least a small amount of charisma rather. Sorcerers fit the motif better, but can't manage the actual abilities, because the sorcerer is stuck with having planar ally, create undead and a bunch of other spells I mentioned taking up spells known slots, which limits them a bit.

woodenbandman
2008-11-16, 01:51 PM
To kill a caster you have to be their best friend and have an attack of uncontrollable rage while wielding a knife coated with a poison that has a DC higher than 40 and deals Con damage/paralyzes. You cannot kill a caster if you are not intimately connected to them and secretly scheming.

streakster
2008-11-16, 01:56 PM
Wait - couldn't we just get a scroll of Stone to Flesh and a Beholder Statue?

Yukitsu
2008-11-16, 01:58 PM
Wait - couldn't we just get a scroll of Stone to Flesh and a Beholder Statue?

No, they have to have bones, and that's a lumpy sack of flesh that looks like a beholder, not an actual beholder. :smalltongue:

The best way to do this is in Eberron, where by this level, you can use true creation to make corpses as a spell like ability at the cost of a single caster level. Just need a single level of heir of syberous.

streakster
2008-11-16, 02:01 PM
No, they have to have bones, and that's a lumpy sack of flesh that looks like a beholder, not an actual beholder. :smalltongue:

The best way to do this is in Eberron, where by this level, you can use true creation to make corpses as a spell like ability at the cost of a single caster level. Just need a single level of heir of syberous.



an ordinary statue would become a corpse.

Huh. Guess that's one for Lord Lorac.

Well, you could probably buy one, anyway.

Yukitsu
2008-11-16, 02:35 PM
I totally forgot about that clause. :smalltongue:

Vinotaur
2008-11-16, 02:51 PM
1) As stoopidtallkid said, Monk is enhancement, so a Barbarian can go faster or as fast when he needs to then a Monk at levels 1-12.

2) Giamoco, two obvious rules errors, besides you many foolish comments that are wrong in a way that requires calculation:

a) They can't grapple him because he is inside a beholder corpse and flying.
b) Planar Binding requires no payment of any kind at all. You can if you want. And it will give you a bonus.

So here's a typical deal with a Succubus:

You will go were I direct you, maintain line of sight with me from there, look for any living creatures that might be approaching and inform me of their approach. In exchange for for this, I will allow you to consume the souls of any people that attack me after I have disabled them.

Now here's the Cha check:

+2 for offer of souls + 2 for 14 Cha (assuming PB, maybe only 12 otherwise) +2 For Eagle's Splendor +3 for Circlet of Persuasion=+9 to check vs +8 for Succy. And there are lots of other ways to get +s if you want. And you can get them to watch over you for CL days. So you pretty much need only 5 or so.

So bottom line, a team of watcher demons is really easy to obtain. And you don't need to pay them anything at all that detracts from your awesome in any way.

Yukitsu
2008-11-16, 11:50 PM
+2 for offer of souls + 2 for 14 Cha (assuming PB, maybe only 12 otherwise) +2 For Eagle's Splendor +3 for Circlet of Persuasion=+9 to check vs +8 for Succy. And there are lots of other ways to get +s if you want. And you can get them to watch over you for CL days. So you pretty much need only 5 or so.


It's only caster level days per casting if you want it to be. You can phrase the request such that it's a year, your lifespan, etc. The days thing is only if you don't specify a length of the contract in your agreement. :smalltongue:

Sir Giacomo
2008-11-17, 04:11 PM
In theory, post an adventure billet for a level 13 party at your local tavern. If other people can make insipid fetch quests, why can't I? :smallwink: I do have to admit, I don't know how to calculate that, however.

Hmmm...your ideas intrigues me more and more.
Let us get through this step by step. (unfortunately I do not have access to beholder stats, but maybe someone else knows? I guess it is about 13 HD, and has a STR of about 16)

If you do not stumble across a beholder (and manage to kill it yourself), it's going to be diffult. Aren't there easier creaturs to animate that also would be able to fly? Hmmm. Will check it.
The problem is:
- you'll need first a knowledge-dungeoneering check to even know about a beholder being able to fly (DC 10+ HD of the creature)
- then you'll need to have a probably higher knowledge-religion check to realise that, yes....

Actually, supernatural flight is retained in skeletons, and EX flight is maintained by zombies.

...good find! Checked the fly rules and skeletons, it apparently is so that magical flight is retained. That is pretty obscure to know even for a necromancer of that level, so the DC of that knowledge check could be beyond the 30s (besides, you'll have to max the two knowledge skills so far, so sorcerer is out now unfortunately and your wizard gets MAD...:smallwink:).

I just have to hang at different parties. Ones with creepy necromancers, demonologists and vampires. :smallbiggrin:

Yep...more importantly, you'll have to hang WITH different parties. Since the paladin, cleric and druid in the group will not much like what you are doing...:smallbiggrin:

Payment for service gives up to +6. If they like not being in danger and getting souls, it's a high mod, if it's not, I thank them for their time and keep trying. A +6 is equivalent to a 22 charisma, which means I need a 10 charisma and a +4 charisma spell to break even. If I had a positive charisma (and if you are playing it like this, you should) you have an edge, or can get away with the request on slightly more difficult cases. :smalltongue: And payment is 24 hours for planar ally, which wizards don't get. A planar binding doesn't have conditions for regularity of payment. You can dismiss them easily enough if they don't want to play along. Remember to be polite, in case you wind up calling them again.

Well, for a start, as a DM I would argue that souls are not your puny level 10 sorcerer/wizard's to give (except your own)...So might have to think up something else (meaning it's possible cash is burnt quite quickly). But let's assume that the succubi will accept that.
The problems are still in the statistics...
1. First, the succubus (henceforth Ms S) will receive a will save +7. Assuming your level 10 wizard has an INT of 22 (quite high, given your CHR also needs to be high), this means vs a DC of 23 (with some focus thrown in). So success only 75% of the times.
2. Then, Ms S has a chance to immediately break free with her SR. 18 means that vs a lvl 10 caster it's 65% likely she will not break free. Combined with 1., that means now only a near 50% chance to succeed.
3. Now, finally, Ms S uses her great CHR for good measure. At this point, the CHR check is still made without the offer, since your wizard did not have a chance yet to offer anything. So likely a +8 bonus vs the wizard's around +4 bonus (+7 with circlet of persuasion). So, reducing again overall chance of success to below 25%.
25%! And this means only the chance that the succubus will not break free right away and attack the wizard (ruining the attempt and also his day).
And ONLY NOW the real service CHR check is made. So I'd place the overall chance of success of the whole thing to around 15%.
(and we should not forget that the succubus could just teleport away, you'd need some means to prevent that like dimensional anchor).
A pity! So better trust your familiar...

Gets easier at later levels when you can cast deathward on people. :smalltongue:

Yep.:smallsmile:

With planar binding, they are forced to work on the conditions you lay out. If you are sufficiently careful, that's not a problem. Since it's spot/listen, simply give them the task of giving verbal and gestural warning prior to any contact with other creatures discluding "Insert member names here" for payment of the souls of those defeated. It will miss some things, like crazy plants, but most of those can't get your from that height.

Sure, but the spell explicitly mentions clever creatures trapped and convinced of the service can subvert some instructions. An INT 16 succubus qualifies nicely for this kind of attitude.
Note also that if you keep Ms S around for days/level, she will immediately have another CHR check to break free of the service and possibly attack you (cunningly enough may bluffing you into believing she still obeys you).

Now, for the beholder stuff...

From 50 feet in the air? :smalltongue: The body guard is for style and eyes. The skeletons are to be an inconvenience. Unsentient undead should be used as terrain. The real hampering factor is flight, which makes things drastically harder for martial types.

The problem with this flying beholder skeleton shell is that the beholder skeleton will likely not be strong enough to carry you along. You need to carry max only light load to be able to fly, and that would mean the skeleton shell needs at least around STR 22-23 (do not forget your equipment like your spellbooks). Vaguely I remember beholder is quite weak. A halfling wizard might do the trick, though.

Actually, most people have mundane bows if they are melee. If you are fighting a dedicated archer, you have to use something like windwall. Protection from arrows works at that level because more things don't have a magical secondary weapon, and they can't use melee. Non-dedicated archery types usually won't down you that quickly. Dedicated archers cramp your style, but often in a manner that allows plenty of time to escape or do something about them, like a solid fog. :smalltongue:

When flying you cannot use windfall (a classic mistake often made), since the wall needs to be set on the ground. Plus, it is static and an archer can move underneath/inside it and still shoot at you.
And in case of many minions using non-magical arrows, the protection from arrows thing is not going to last long. How fast is the flying speed of the beholder again?

They actually do. They don't pose a threat should be a better assertion. They do get in the way, prevent movement from being at full speed, and generally are there to slow people on the ground to a crawl.

Hmmm. Might work. Depends on what feats and skills the wizard's non-caster opponents have. Mostly all have some way to move around/through those undead:
- barbarian/fighter: feats (spring attack), jump
- monk: jump, tumble
- rogue: tumble

Not if they want to move. They also can't fly. :smallamused:

Yep, the npc kind likely not...but rangers and rogues are known to have good magical ranged attacks (bows).

You walk in your sleep? :smallconfused:

No, but I normally do adventuring while not sleeping...:smallwink:

I said that CR 10 flyers have a massive advantage for having fly. It actually seems to increase CR by 1-2 in most cases, so even though they are flyers, most are easier to beat than most grounded monsters, or they are easy to see from a distance and shoot down, or if it's something like a dragon, has weaknesses. If you can't exploit those weaknesses, you can simply leave, because you can also see them from far away.
And they are as vulnerable as the wizard. :smalltongue: The point of flying is, melee stops working unless you also fly, or you need ranged attacks. A flying wizard isn't at a disadvantage from being in the air against flyers, and can continue to excersise all of his options. Also, the CR adjustment for being able to fly lowers the threat a little bit, since flying isn't helping the flyer avoid any of the wizard attacks.

My original request was to survive surprise attacks. All flying creatures managing that vs the wizard will likely defeat him (say, an angry succubus...:smallcool:).
The only thing may be if the DM is generous enough to allow the wizard full cover inside the beholder shell, but that is entirely up to the DM. I'd likely judge it to be full cover, then it would be very good protection.

Using UMD when it's low in combat is usually a bad idea, and buffs aren't control. It's more things like modifying terrain, Evard's black tentacles, any of those fog spells, any wall spells etc. Buffing is best when done before combat, as any persist cleric will tell you. You basically just yell orders at the pawns, put more pieces on your side of the table, and change the table. Upgrading pieces isn't usually the best idea. You should upgrade them before they are placed on the field.

Well, I must say, how much I likey your ideas, the chance of success are even below my joker monk's early level UMD activation chances.:smallsmile:
The animate dead spell is easily one of the most powerful spells since it can create 28HD+ bodyguards from level 7. Fluffwise, it is quite restricted, though. Only something for highly specific campaigns where characters can be evil.

Barbs can't fly. :smallbiggrin:

But they can jump and with haste boots have move 70t. That's +16 to a possibly maxed jump, totaling at level 10 possibly around 30ft high attacking reach with enlarge effect (40ft with spiked chain). Enough to catch the wizard in his beholder shell in more confined dungeons...

No, going over, I'm not ignoring them. I do assume repeat tries, but I'm certainly not ignoring them. :smalltongue:

see above...

Generalist caster with at least a small amount of charisma rather. Sorcerers fit the motif better, but can't manage the actual abilities, because the sorcerer is stuck with having planar ally, create undead and a bunch of other spells I mentioned taking up spells known slots, which limits them a bit.


Basically, the two things (beholder shell and succubi at the same time) are difficult to combine. Wizard for the beholder shell, and succubi for the sorcerer. What do you think?

- Giacomo

Vinotaur
2008-11-17, 05:12 PM
Giamoco, you are wrong on several accounts again.

Firstly, The Beholder is 11HD, If you are outside of Core, there are many ways to increase the Str of your Skeletal minions, but assuming that you are in fact staying Core, the Beholder can easily carry over a 150lbs as a light load (though I cannot find any such rule limiting it to light load.)

Secondly, all it takes to know about the flight is either a DC 18 spellcraft check (easily made, especially because you can take ten) or a DC 15 Knowledge Religion check.

Thirdly, the fact that A Wizard needs int to get good knowledges does not make him Mad, because he still only needs one good stat, and everything else can be 8-14 and he won't care.

Fourth, you have made so many mistakes as regards Planar Binding.

1) Once it has agreed to service, it cannot break free any more, it must complete that service.

2) As a level 8 Wizard, you have an Int mod, assuming starting 16 and human (18 Grey elf) of 22, but a Wizard is SAD, so given say, 28 PB the Wizard has actual stats of 18 Int 14 Con 14 Cha or, if Gray Elf, 20 Int 14 Cha 12 Con.

And to be perfectly honest, 28 PB is very low, 32 is probably standard.

So you can expect a will save DC of about 21 or higher, against the Succy's +7, and you don't even care if she succeeds because you just cast it again.

3) Then when she gets there, she a) does not get a spell resistance check, thanks to magic circle, b) is locked in thanks to Dimensional Anchor, c) must make a Cha check equal to 28, something she can't actually make (oh by the way, the Circlet of Persuasion doesn't work on that, because she's against a DC, it's not a Charisma check of yours.)

4) With her complete inability to escape readily apparent at that point, you begin the bargaining.

By providing her with an incentive (giving her captured people to soul suck) you are providing at least a +2 bonus, in addition to your already 18 Cha and Circlet of Persuasion. So it's her +8 versus your +9, and that's minimal investment for a Binder, lots of other things you can do.

5) it says, "Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions." Which is why you, being a Cleverer imposer give the instructions that cannot be subverted.

Yukitsu
2008-11-18, 01:44 AM
Hmmm...your ideas intrigues me more and more.
Let us get through this step by step. (unfortunately I do not have access to beholder stats, but maybe someone else knows? I guess it is about 13 HD, and has a STR of about 16)

HD 11, large size and strength 10. Carrying capacity is 66, but as was brought up earlier, medium or heavy doesn't reduce ability to fly. It merely reduces the speed.


If you do not stumble across a beholder (and manage to kill it yourself), it's going to be diffult. Aren't there easier creaturs to animate that also would be able to fly? Hmmm. Will check it.
The problem is:
- you'll need first a knowledge-dungeoneering check to even know about a beholder being able to fly (DC 10+ HD of the creature)
- then you'll need to have a probably higher knowledge-religion check to realise that, yes....

Checks are lower. Simply have to know the HD of a lower level flying skeleton and zombie, and I believe you can manage by CR 2 or so.


...good find! Checked the fly rules and skeletons, it apparently is so that magical flight is retained. That is pretty obscure to know even for a necromancer of that level, so the DC of that knowledge check could be beyond the 30s (besides, you'll have to max the two knowledge skills so far, so sorcerer is out now unfortunately and your wizard gets MAD...:smallwink:).

Only as obscure as the lowest common denominator, which is about 14 or so.


Yep...more importantly, you'll have to hang WITH different parties. Since the paladin, cleric and druid in the group will not much like what you are doing...:smallbiggrin:

Yes, a good aligned wizard works similarly, but not identically.


Well, for a start, as a DM I would argue that souls are not your puny level 10 sorcerer/wizard's to give (except your own)...

You can capture a soul with only 10 000 GP, reusable with a thinaun sacraficial dagger, or you can simply capture and incapacitate enemies, and let the succubi finish them off.


So might have to think up something else (meaning it's possible cash is burnt quite quickly). But let's assume that the succubi will accept that.
The problems are still in the statistics...
1. First, the succubus (henceforth Ms S) will receive a will save +7. Assuming your level 10 wizard has an INT of 22 (quite high, given your CHR also needs to be high), this means vs a DC of 23 (with some focus thrown in). So success only 75% of the times.
2. Then, Ms S has a chance to immediately break free with her SR. 18 means that vs a lvl 10 caster it's 65% likely she will not break free. Combined with 1., that means now only a near 50% chance to succeed.
3. Now, finally, Ms S uses her great CHR for good measure. At this point, the CHR check is still made without the offer, since your wizard did not have a chance yet to offer anything. So likely a +8 bonus vs the wizard's around +4 bonus (+7 with circlet of persuasion). So, reducing again overall chance of success to below 25%.
25%! And this means only the chance that the succubus will not break free right away and attack the wizard (ruining the attempt and also his day).
And ONLY NOW the real service CHR check is made. So I'd place the overall chance of success of the whole thing to around 15%.(and we should not forget that the succubus could just teleport away, you'd need some means to prevent that like dimensional anchor).
A pity! So better trust your familiar...


As was said, you can negate a lot of that, so it's higher in reality. It's also best to just make repeated tries anyway, because the spell can last years.


Sure, but the spell explicitly mentions clever creatures trapped and convinced of the service can subvert some instructions. An INT 16 succubus qualifies nicely for this kind of attitude.
Note also that if you keep Ms S around for days/level, she will immediately have another CHR check to break free of the service and possibly attack you (cunningly enough may bluffing you into believing she still obeys you).

No, they must obey unless I violate the conditions, which I just won't do. They can only subvert the rules within what was stated.


The problem with this flying beholder skeleton shell is that the beholder skeleton will likely not be strong enough to carry you along. You need to carry max only light load to be able to fly, and that would mean the skeleton shell needs at least around STR 22-23 (do not forget your equipment like your spellbooks). Vaguely I remember beholder is quite weak. A halfling wizard might do the trick, though.

Due to the large size, the capacity is increased, and heavier load doesn't negate movement, it merely lowers flight movement. You can easily manage 200 pounds if you aren't too concerned about speed.


When flying you cannot use windfall (a classic mistake often made), since the wall needs to be set on the ground. Plus, it is static and an archer can move underneath/inside it and still shoot at you.
And in case of many minions using non-magical arrows, the protection from arrows thing is not going to last long. How fast is the flying speed of the beholder again?

"It is possible to create cylindrical or square wind walls to enclose specific points. "

Which hampers upward shooting. :smalltongue: An encumbered beholder moves 15 feet per round, but never tires, so runs at all times at 45. 80 if at medium load.


Hmmm. Might work. Depends on what feats and skills the wizard's non-caster opponents have. Mostly all have some way to move around/through those undead:
- barbarian/fighter: feats (spring attack), jump
- monk: jump, tumble
- rogue: tumble

Yes, all of those situations force checks, and more importantly, reduce speed in many of those cases. The jumpers provoke as they fly over.


Yep, the npc kind likely not...but rangers and rogues are known to have good magical ranged attacks (bows).

Neither are great against skeletons. Rangers don't gain extra damage on skeletons, and rogues can't sneak attack them. Since both tend towards dex with damage coming from a secondary source, they have low enough damage that the DR5/bludgeoning of the skeleton template really reduces that damage.


No, but I normally do adventuring while not sleeping...:smallwink:

Yes, rope trick is only to avoid problems when sleeping, not for when adventuring.


My original request was to survive surprise attacks. All flying creatures managing that vs the wizard will likely defeat him (say, an angry succubus...:smallcool:).

DM would have to explain why they are angry, however, and how they get out of the circle. Otherwise this character is fairly hard to catch off guard.


The only thing may be if the DM is generous enough to allow the wizard full cover inside the beholder shell, but that is entirely up to the DM. I'd likely judge it to be full cover, then it would be very good protection.

If you do the beads thing, and lean out to cast, you have half cover, and good concealment. Since leaning is a free action, you normally have half cover and full concealment.


Well, I must say, how much I likey your ideas, the chance of success are even below my joker monk's early level UMD activation chances.:smallsmile:
The animate dead spell is easily one of the most powerful spells since it can create 28HD+ bodyguards from level 7. Fluffwise, it is quite restricted, though. Only something for highly specific campaigns where characters can be evil.

True. Good characters rely on different tricks.


But they can jump and with haste boots have move 70t. That's +16 to a possibly maxed jump, totaling at level 10 possibly around 30ft high attacking reach with enlarge effect (40ft with spiked chain). Enough to catch the wizard in his beholder shell in more confined dungeons...

Yes, for a single hit per round. :smalltongue: He's likely to get locked on the ground after the first swing, which likely won't destroy the beholder.


Basically, the two things (beholder shell and succubi at the same time) are difficult to combine. Wizard for the beholder shell, and succubi for the sorcerer. What do you think?

You'd be surprised how easy it actually is to manage. While it would be easier for a sorcerer to do it, it's ultimately going to be stronger for the wizard, just because he can cast planar binding as often as he wants for essentially no cost for failure, and doesn't get stuck with a non-useful spell known in the future.

Brock Samson
2008-11-18, 03:15 AM
A high DC dominate person. Wizards may have a good Will save, but that doesn't go far enough to completely protect them, especially when they spend so much time focusing on Int.

Oh, as mentioned already, Anit-magic field + grappling = epic fail for Wizards. And if they try to sneak in some class that allows them to use magic while within the confines of the spell, punch your DM in the face and remind them it's an extremely dumb idea for them to allow that. It IS a friggin' Anti-magic field after all.

Vinotaur
2008-11-18, 03:38 AM
A high DC dominate person. Wizards may have a good Will save, but that doesn't go far enough to completely protect them, especially when they spend so much time focusing on Int.

Oh, as mentioned already, Anit-magic field + grappling = epic fail for Wizards. And if they try to sneak in some class that allows them to use magic while within the confines of the spell, punch your DM in the face and remind them it's an extremely dumb idea for them to allow that. It IS a friggin' Anti-magic field after all.

Once again, how did you get this AMF up next to the Wizard without him casting solid fog on you first?

It must have taken your standard action because you can't fly in an AMF, and he's in the air.

So at this point, it must be his action now, and he is going to 5ft step and cast wall of force, or just cast defensively if you don't have Mage slayer. (unless he's an IotSFV, in which case he just uses an immediate action then casts Dimension Door to 100ft above you and drops spontaneous Conjurations on you.)

I am willing to run my Wizard against anyone foolish enough to use AMF fields.

Book options are your choice in that you can choose either Core only or supplements. In which case I automatically get Complete Mage and Complete Arcane.

Choose your level, rules are:

1) I can prepare all the ways I would be prepared every day.

2) I will assume you found me somehow.

3) I will not cast a single spell or activate a single limited use ability until after you activate the AMF.

4) You are not allowed to take any actions that would confine me or do damage to me until after you activate the AMF.

Brock Samson
2008-11-18, 06:49 AM
Well first of all you play a race that has wings and a natural flight speed, hence flying while the AMF is up. You fly much, much higher than them and have extremely high ranks in hide (move silently need not really apply), and the +1 DC to spot every 10 ft. really comes in handy. Go ahead and be a were-crocodile Warshaper so you naturally have reach and improved grab, plus grab the Improved Combat Reflexes feat and Greater Combat Reflexes feat so you have 3 AoO whenever you normally would have one. Use your fly to charge straight downward and attack, getting the drop on them as they haven't spotted you yet. At the end of your charge you either hit, or don't hit (but trust me, you'll hit if they have no magical buffs now that they're in your field). Then you automatically get to start a grapple. You'll probably win. Next round you pin them. Next round you coup-de-grace. They can cast nothing, nothing will go off, and unless they roll a 20 will not escape. If they do escape, or you missed your initial hit, you're still right up in their grill, 5 feet away from them. Their round begins, they can't fly because, oh that's right, no magic. So they fall, provoking 3 attacks of opportunity from you, if any of which hits rinse and repeat with grappling.

P.S. My ECL 13 Non-optimized Warshaper/Fighter/Barbarian Were-croc does an average of 40+ points of damage with a single attack, add 7 more levels to match the Wizard's level and any Wizard with d4 hit points will likely be dead before the end of your second round.

Brock Samson
2008-11-18, 06:59 AM
I'm also curious about some Anti-Magic-shackles I've heard about somewhere that suppress Magic on whomever they're bound on. And isn't there a prestige class all about being able to hog tie people in 6 seconds flat, or even use shackles like a bola?

Eldariel
2008-11-18, 09:17 AM
I'm also curious about some Anti-Magic-shackles I've heard about somewhere that suppress Magic on whomever they're bound on. And isn't there a prestige class all about being able to hog tie people in 6 seconds flat, or even use shackles like a bola?

All that requires getting next to them, which means their contingency not triggering and sending them flying away, them not happening to have picked Craft Contingent Spell, them not being Initiates of the Sevenfold Mage, them not having Foresight or similar or means to detect you (how do you hide in the sky again? You'll need Hide in Plain Sight for that, and moving while Hiding can easily grant you -20 to the Hide-check) and just cast Celerity to get away from you - or to interpose a Wall of Force between you, or heck, toss you into a Forcecage. Or Solid Fog as said before. Good luck diving from there.

Oh yeah, it also requires locating them which is very much a nontrivial matter with all manners of illusions, invisibilities and such available in the game. And getting past any Planar Bound goons and others they may have around. Simply: Killing a Wizard without any defensive effects on him who has taken no steps to keep himself alive is easy indeed. Killing a fully prepared high level Wizard pretty much requires you to be a much higher level Wizard or a Divinity. You can't hogtie them if you can't touch them. You can't AMF them if you can't touch them. Heck, it's fully possible that they just made themselves so large that they can't be affected by Anti-Magic Field (Huge and larger creatures are too big to fit into the area).

Vinotaur
2008-11-18, 09:40 AM
Well first of all you play a race that has wings and a natural flight speed, hence flying while the AMF is up. You fly much, much higher than them and have extremely high ranks in hide (move silently need not really apply), and the +1 DC to spot every 10 ft. really comes in handy. Go ahead and be a were-crocodile Warshaper so you naturally have reach and improved grab, plus grab the Improved Combat Reflexes feat and Greater Combat Reflexes feat so you have 3 AoO whenever you normally would have one. Use your fly to charge straight downward and attack, getting the drop on them as they haven't spotted you yet. At the end of your charge you either hit, or don't hit (but trust me, you'll hit if they have no magical buffs now that they're in your field). Then you automatically get to start a grapple. You'll probably win. Next round you pin them. Next round you coup-de-grace. They can cast nothing, nothing will go off, and unless they roll a 20 will not escape. If they do escape, or you missed your initial hit, you're still right up in their grill, 5 feet away from them. Their round begins, they can't fly because, oh that's right, no magic. So they fall, provoking 3 attacks of opportunity from you, if any of which hits rinse and repeat with grappling.

P.S. My ECL 13 Non-optimized Warshaper/Fighter/Barbarian Were-croc does an average of 40+ points of damage with a single attack, add 7 more levels to match the Wizard's level and any Wizard with d4 hit points will likely be dead before the end of your second round.

So you break out every single splatbook you can find to create some crazy stuff, and you still don't do it right.

Okay, great: See Superior Invisibility and Non-Detection. Have fun charging empty air in the hopes that I'm there.

Oh, and by the way, I've still got a veil to raise as an immediate action, or Celerity, and my spot check is actually ridiculous, and way better then yours. And Ironically, I only receive 1/4th the normal spot penalties to distance, not to mention auto-detecting you once you reach within 50ft of me.

So you can't actually grapple me before I cast celerity or raise a veil and teleport away.

Oh, and by the way, your ECL 13 Were-Croc, in addition to being weak and pathetic against normal characters also can't fly naturally, and also you can't shapeshift in an AMF.

So yeah, /fail on your ambush. I don't know what you think your fly speed is (because you have none) but whatever it is, unless you can charge the entire distance from out of my sight in one round (fat chance) I just start beating you to death, or Dimension Door far away and watch you try to come get me while your AMF still stands.

And you never mentioned how you actually have this AMF field either for that matter. But whatever, since you can't fly at all, and that's essential to your plan, I don't know what else to say.

Ossian
2008-11-18, 11:56 AM
One thing which usually does the job (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barret_.50).

High level fighter buys a time travel scroll, travels to modern age, trains a year at sniping school, comes back and conveniently snipes the target from 1 mile away.

Sadly, even with this, you are still not safe...

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-18, 12:10 PM
A .50 only does 2d12 points of damage which is going to leave you explaining to a very angry wizard why you shot at him. I'd go with the "I thought you were a deer" excuse and then run away as fast as you can. Not that it will help but every little bit counts.

jguy
2008-11-18, 12:48 PM
All of this is making me think of a campaign idea. Essentially all people with arcane powers are persecuted and hunted down from an early age. Cleric are permitted since they are the people in charge of the finding of them and propaganda. Even powerful wizards would have a hard time fighting society itself outside of running

ZeroNumerous
2008-11-18, 12:52 PM
Even powerful wizards would have a hard time fighting society itself outside of running

Gray Elven Collegiate Wizard using the Elven Racial Substitution for Wizards. You get 4 spells/level for free, most of which can be those wonderful game-breaking spells. Then simply don't tell anyone you're a wizard(very easy with the Eschew Materials feat) and wander around killing things with magic when no one else is paying attention.

Defeat divinations by calling yourself something other than a wizard until you get high enough to get Mindblank.

jguy
2008-11-18, 12:59 PM
until you are found out and the [spanish!] inquisition is after you

ZeroNumerous
2008-11-18, 01:02 PM
until you are found out and the [spanish!] inquisition is after you

Found out by the people you don't tell you're a wizard? Alternatively: Easy Metamagic(Silent Spell). Silent everything you ever cast then claim to be a divine caster.

jguy
2008-11-18, 01:06 PM
-shrugs- I don't know. There are creatures that hunt arcane magic, shouldn't be too hard to force them/train them to search out arcane magic

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-18, 01:10 PM
All of this is making me think of a campaign idea. Essentially all people with arcane powers are persecuted and hunted down from an early age. Cleric are permitted since they are the people in charge of the finding of them and propaganda. Even powerful wizards would have a hard time fighting society itself outside of running

The problem is that once they miss a single wizard and let him reach level 20 they are screwed. Have you ever seen a real assassination wizard? A war for survival fought by the most powerful. Even low level wizards have sleep and color spray take Easy Meta (silent), Easy Meta (still), Eschew Materials, Still, and Silent and you can cast any spell with no verbal or somatic components. And a human wizard with 2 flaws can have all of those feats at level 3. He just stands within range and the guard falls asleep, too be coup de graced. Now imagine an army of low level wizards. And as they level it gets worse.

Grey Elf wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 5 making use of Spontaneous Divination and the Elf Generalist sub level can make a truly horrifying assassin. Mind Blank + Non Detection + Superior Invisiblity + Ghost Form + Shapechange means that you can go anywhere with impunity. Now you hit things you want dead with your Orb's of Death.

An all out war on wizards won't end well, they are the best caster class when it comes to making themselves into weapons and at level 20 they are 1 man armies.

VerdugoExplode
2008-11-18, 01:15 PM
Unfortunately easy metamagic only applies to metamagic feats with a +2 level modifier or higher.

Another solution: Take a rod of still metamagic, slap a holy symbol on it and tadaa! You now cast spells like a cleric with a divine focus and everything.

Edit: Wait, nevermind, huh, the crystalkeep index doesn't agree with what the actual magazine says. Weird.

jguy
2008-11-18, 01:15 PM
Hence why I said they get the arcane guys when they are at -low- level. You give examples of a character -allowed- to become level 20. This sounds like something out of a movie, a nazi movie.

Heck, the society might let a couple wizards to live in exchange for killing other wizards.

jguy
2008-11-18, 01:16 PM
Don't all clerics give off an aura of their alignment? Wouldn't it be easy to detect that aura or lack of one for -fake- clerics? There is probably some way a wizard can fake it, I don't know

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-18, 01:30 PM
Unfortunately easy metamagic only applies to metamagic feats with a +2 level modifier or higher.
True. Just grab Arcane Thesis: Sleep then. Same end effect for 1 fewer feat. It's not optimial but for a solider wizard who is trying to hide his abilities it works.


Another solution: Take a rod of still metamagic, slap a holy symbol on it and tadaa! You now cast spells like a cleric with a divine focus and everything.
That to.


Hence why I said they get the arcane guys when they are at -low- level. You give examples of a character -allowed- to become level 20. This sounds like something out of a movie, a nazi movie.

Heck, the society might let a couple wizards to live in exchange for killing other wizards.
No, they aren't allowed to become level 20. They become level 20 by virtue of surviving until then. 13 equal CR challenges gains you a level. Grey Elf with 28 point buy and the elf generalist sub level who has scores (after adjustments) of 8 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 18 Int, 10 Wis, and 10 Cha has 3 level 1 spells per day at level 1. A human commoner 1 is a CR 1/2 encounter. Killing 6 of those in a day is easily doable. After 5 day's you have leveled. Repeat the process. RAW you should level from 1 to 20 in 65 days (4 equal CR encounters per day and 13 equal CR encounters per level).

And that doesn't even touch on giving 2 people merciful weapons and just having them beat each other up. They both level every 26 bouts. And with some healing wands they can gain around 2 level per day.

jguy
2008-11-18, 01:40 PM
it really depends on the DM then I think. Simply killing commoners wouldn't give someone the knowledge/experience to become such high level

Tohron
2008-11-18, 02:02 PM
Another problem is that there's nothing to stop a wizard from fleeing into the wilderness. Unless the world is nonstop cities and towns, there's got to be some areas where the anti-wizard police can't pursue them. Thus, the wizard could take some cross-class ranks in survival, or maybe take a level in ranger, or two levels in rogue to become an Arcane Trickster, so that they can remain there indefinitely. Then they could just keep leveling up against the beasts of the forest and research spells, without any outside interference, until they hit a high enough level to completely obliterate any opposition.

Yukitsu
2008-11-18, 02:03 PM
A high DC dominate person. Wizards may have a good Will save, but that doesn't go far enough to completely protect them, especially when they spend so much time focusing on Int.

A level one spell renders wizards immune, which they have easy access to, and it lasts for hours.


Oh, as mentioned already, Anit-magic field + grappling = epic fail for Wizards. And if they try to sneak in some class that allows them to use magic while within the confines of the spell, punch your DM in the face and remind them it's an extremely dumb idea for them to allow that. It IS a friggin' Anti-magic field after all.

You may not fall from the anti magic field, but the beholder does, and thus so does the wizard. Unless you waste your time trying to grapple a guy with cover and concealment with your high level adjustment semi caster who is using a 6th level spell against a 10th level wizard, I still can probably manage a fair chance at beating you in the grapple. Say, 1 in four times, in which case escape is both simple and likely.


Well first of all you play a race that has wings and a natural flight speed, hence flying while the AMF is up. You fly much, much higher than them and have extremely high ranks in hide (move silently need not really apply), and the +1 DC to spot every 10 ft. really comes in handy. Go ahead and be a were-crocodile Warshaper so you naturally have reach and improved grab, plus grab the Improved Combat Reflexes feat and Greater Combat Reflexes feat so you have 3 AoO whenever you normally would have one. Use your fly to charge straight downward and attack, getting the drop on them as they haven't spotted you yet.

You can't hide at all without cover, and if you use cloud cover, I will spot you the instant you leave that cloud cover, which is something like 5000 feet above me. That's plenty of time.


At the end of your charge you either hit, or don't hit (but trust me, you'll hit if they have no magical buffs now that they're in your field).

Well, if you are a base creature with the winged template and were, you have a BAB at level 10 of about 6, a master craft weapon, and probably 20 strength, so +12 maximum. +14 from charging. If you want to hit the wizard, rather than beholder, it's 10 base +2 average dex +8 from cover, then 50% mundane concealment. Slightly less than a 50% hit rate. You can hit the beholder, but next round I start falling, and can thus cast again, assuming I didn't do it from a distance.


Then you automatically get to start a grapple. You'll probably win. Next round you pin them. Next round you coup-de-grace. They can cast nothing, nothing will go off, and unless they roll a 20 will not escape. If they do escape, or you missed your initial hit, you're still right up in their grill, 5 feet away from them. Their round begins, they can't fly because, oh that's right, no magic. So they fall, provoking 3 attacks of opportunity from you, if any of which hits rinse and repeat with grappling.

Both those actions provoke from me, my beholder skeleton, and possibly anything else around. The beholder for instance, could perform a mid air trip attack, and has a decent chance of succeeding. Also, you are never allowed more than one attack of opportunity on a single target, and you don't get them against opponents with concealment.


P.S. My ECL 13 Non-optimized Warshaper/Fighter/Barbarian Were-croc does an average of 40+ points of damage with a single attack, add 7 more levels to match the Wizard's level and any Wizard with d4 hit points will likely be dead before the end of your second round.

The wizard I mentioned is ECL 10, so you have to remove 3 levels to match him, not add 7. A level 20 wizard isn't even an available target on the plane of existance. Not only that, but to naturally fly, you need ECL 15 to get the winged template. Not only that, but my wizard is purely core. As in, PHB without items from the DMG core.

jguy
2008-11-18, 02:26 PM
question. If all arcane spell casting is illegal/banned, how is this fleeing wizard researching spells in the forest? Scrolls and such aren't going to be written on bark.

Heck, a lot of wizards use items to boost their stats and use metamagic. How are they going to get the funds to make it while running from the law?

Yukitsu
2008-11-18, 02:34 PM
question. If all arcane spell casting is illegal/banned, how is this fleeing wizard researching spells in the forest? Scrolls and such aren't going to be written on bark.

Heck, a lot of wizards use items to boost their stats and use metamagic. How are they going to get the funds to make it while running from the law?

They get two for free just for existing per level. They don't need scrolls, books or anything. They get those two automatically by inference. Tippies gets 4. Mine would get 6, but would have to be specialized in illusions.

monty
2008-11-18, 02:41 PM
until you are found out and the [spanish!] inquisition is after you

Just expect it. Nobody else will, so they'll be off guard when you're ready for them.

Tohron
2008-11-18, 02:46 PM
question. If all arcane spell casting is illegal/banned, how is this fleeing wizard researching spells in the forest? Scrolls and such aren't going to be written on bark.

They could take Craft(paper) :smallsmile:

How much access to Divination do clerics have though? Would the wizard be at risk of being scried if nobody had managed to ascertain his identity?

jguy
2008-11-18, 02:47 PM
They get two for free just for existing per level. They don't need scrolls, books or anything. They get those two automatically by inference. Tippies gets 4. Mine would get 6, but would have to be specialized in illusions.

But outside of that, you're pretty much screwed. All of that crazy preparation that was going on before would be pretty hard since you didn't have the vast amount of spell choices. You'd have to focus on either hiding or fighting. Also, you made no mention on getting any equipment with 0 money

jguy
2008-11-18, 02:48 PM
They could take Craft(paper) :smallsmile:

How much access to Divination do clerics have though? Would the wizard be at risk of being scried if nobody had managed to ascertain his identity?

You could pull a Professor X and divine for those with arcane abilities :smallbiggrin:

Yukitsu
2008-11-18, 03:00 PM
But outside of that, you're pretty much screwed. All of that crazy preparation that was going on before would be pretty hard since you didn't have the vast amount of spell choices. You'd have to focus on either hiding or fighting. Also, you made no mention on getting any equipment with 0 money

Wizards can make money easily enough. I'd just dip heir of syberous for one level then not worry about money at all, and research spells I need from scratch. Plus, 6 spells per level, 2 of which are illusions, 4 of any type gives me plenty enough for a start. That means I have 12 spells of each spell level, exept level 1 spells, of which I'd have something like 24.

If money is a real bad, start a black market for spells. You can sell a spell for hyper inflated prices in the market.

Vinotaur
2008-11-18, 03:04 PM
1) Spell research.
2) Crafting.
3) How do adventurers get money and equipment? From raiding dungeons and Tomes. How do Wizards get materials for crafting items? By raiding dungeons and tomes. (And killing Dragons and taking their hoards.)
4) Any Wizard with Planar Binding can just make an Efferiti wish up piles of wealth.

Yukitsu
2008-11-18, 03:06 PM
1) Spell research.
2) Crafting.
3) How do adventurers get money and equipment? From raiding dungeons and Tomes. How do Wizards get materials for crafting items? By raiding dungeons and tomes. (And killing Dragons and taking their hoards.)
4) Any Wizard with Planar Binding can just make an Efferiti wish up piles of wealth.

Hier of syberous has true creation as a spell like ability for free. :smalltongue:

jguy
2008-11-18, 03:08 PM
seems like the game should instead be called Wizards&Wizards

Yukitsu
2008-11-18, 04:06 PM
seems like the game should instead be called Wizards&Wizards

Wizards and CoDzilla more like.

jguy
2008-11-18, 04:13 PM
Wizards and CoDzilla more like.

CoDzilla? Sounds somewhat sexual...

Yukitsu
2008-11-18, 04:16 PM
Cleric or druid zilla. Like godzilla, but smaller and more powerful.

Druids and clerics are more powerful on the immediate scale, or rather, easier to use at lower levels. They pretty much keep up with wizards at later levels, but I'd argue that an optimized wizard, at high levels is superior to the optimized cleric or druid.

BardicDuelist
2008-11-18, 04:17 PM
CoDzilla? Sounds somewhat sexual...

Cleric-or-Druid-zilla.

jguy
2008-11-18, 04:52 PM
You know, I'd be more afraid of a high level cleric than a wizard personally. A wizard is just as powerful, but his comes from personal experience/training. A cleric has a deity backing him...

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-18, 05:00 PM
You know, I'd be more afraid of a high level cleric than a wizard personally. A wizard is just as powerful, but his comes from personal experience/training. A cleric has a deity backing him...

I would take a level 21 wizard over anything less than a greater deity any time (and even over most of them as well). Epic spellcasting is better than divine ranks.

chiasaur11
2008-11-18, 05:02 PM
Me, I'd worry most about Kobold Paladins, then clerics of the really big name deities at high levels, then wizards, then other high level clerics, then druids.

Of course, it can vary.

jguy
2008-11-18, 05:05 PM
kobold paladins?

Starbuck_II
2008-11-18, 05:06 PM
Me, I'd worry most about Kobold Paladins, then clerics of the really big name deities at high levels, then wizards, then other high level clerics, then druids.

Of course, it can vary.

I'm worried about the Beaver.

MeklorIlavator
2008-11-18, 05:16 PM
kobold paladins?

Its one of the ways to make Pun-Pun.

Yukitsu
2008-11-18, 06:36 PM
Its one of the ways to make Pun-Pun.

I recall that one having some rules disputes though. Actually, all of them had some rules disputes by my recollection. As well as assuming dumb as bricks DMs.

The Glyphstone
2008-11-18, 06:38 PM
I would take a level 21 wizard over anything less than a greater deity any time (and even over most of them as well). Epic spellcasting is better than divine ranks.

Don't you mean a Level 21 Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Warmage, or [insert full caster class here]? Epic Spellcasting is very generous in sharing the brokenness.:smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-18, 06:51 PM
Don't you mean a Level 21 Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Warmage, or [insert full caster class here]? Epic Spellcasting is very generous in sharing the brokenness.:smallbiggrin:

Yeah, but Druids and Clerics can't get Arcane Genesis (well unless the cleric has the creation domain). Which means that they can't mess around with the time traits of their demiplanes. So they are always slower in amassing the solar army of mitigation.

Yukitsu
2008-11-18, 06:55 PM
Yeah, but Druids and Clerics can't get Arcane Genesis (well unless the cleric has the creation domain). Which means that they can't mess around with the time traits of their demiplanes. So they are always slower in amassing the solar army of mitigation.

Clerics don't use demi-planes as much because they have less down time, so they can just plane shift to a time altered plane to fit their needs for the solar army. It's less private, but at the same time clerics don't need to worry about random encounters as much as wizards. Druids on the other hand can just go planar shepard.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-18, 07:01 PM
Clerics don't use demi-planes as much because they have less down time, so they can just plane shift to a time altered plane to fit their needs for the solar army. It's less private, but at the same time clerics don't need to worry about random encounters as much as wizards. Druids on the other hand can just go planar shepard.

Yeah, but none of them can do it as fast. A wizard can do a 10 million to 1 time plane (10 million rounds pass on the plane for every round that passes on the prime material). Which is exceeding better than any of the planes that a cleric can access or that a planar shepherd can use.

Yukitsu
2008-11-18, 07:07 PM
Yeah, but none of them can do it as fast. A wizard can do a 10 million to 1 time plane (10 million rounds pass on the plane for every round that passes on the prime material). Which is exceeding better than any of the planes that a cleric can access or that a planar shepherd can use.

That requires an axe to the frontal lobe stupid DM though. :smalltongue: There is a list of planar time traits that exist, and I always find it hard to argue that you can exceed them with a genesis.

Of course, you can just start abusing spell durations. You can manage a miracle to emulate a psionic temporal acceleration, which has a standard duration type, so you can persist it with divine metamagic to a similar effect, which is just as questionable as using a 1 to 10000000 time plane.

Druids, not so much into time tricks with them.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-18, 07:30 PM
Druids, not so much into time tricks with them.Planar Shepard.

monty
2008-11-18, 07:31 PM
Planar Shepard.

Still can only get 60 to 1, as far as I know. Broken earlier, but not as broken.

Yukitsu
2008-11-18, 07:34 PM
Planar Shepard.

Already mentioned it, but that's not as twinky as the wizard or clerical options.

Brock Samson
2008-11-19, 12:09 AM
Does nobody remember that there's a race, I believe they're called Raptorans (?) that gets wings and has no level adjustment. Granted I'm not sure of their fly speed, and I know their capability to fly is based on how many Hit Dice they have. And aren't there a couple feats to add speed, increase manueverabillity, and then isn't there a prestige class like Aerial Avenger, something that increases your fly speed?

Nevermind on all that, does anyone know how many feet/round a person falls when they're free-falling? I'm thinking, active your Anti-Magic Torc, available in the Magic Item Compendium, then jump off your friend the giant eagle while making an excellent Knowledge: Geometry roll such that you're at terminal velocity when you hit them, the previous round activating your Bracers of True Strike (or whatever they're called in the MIC) to make sure you hit. If the wizard is in a flying Beholder skeleton, well, Sunder the skeleton, grab the feat that lets you attack immediately after making a successful Sunder (with maybe a little judicious judging from your DM that this is capable purely based on cool points) and get your attack on the wizard with no cover, using Improved Grab after your hit and pulling them down to the earth with you while in the AMF.

Hm, I now have the incredible desire to pick up some ranks in Knowledge: Geography and just launch myself off of cliffs at opponents, even if they're on the ground and there's no need to.

Kilmrak
2008-11-19, 12:12 AM
If you use a fighter with all the mage-slayer feats, spiked chain with the magebane enchantment and armor with various energy resistances.

(Oh and being a Dwarf will help thanks to the +2 to save against spells)

as long as you win the init. you should be golden because with a 10 ft reach the wizard cant back up and cast without getting hit with attack of oppertunity.

streakster
2008-11-19, 12:13 AM
If you use a fighter with all the mage-slayer feats, spiked chain with the magebane enchantment and armor with various energy resistances.

(Oh and being a Dwarf will help thanks to the +2 to save against spells)

as long as you win the init. you should be golden because with a 10 ft reach the wizard cant back up and cast without getting hit with attack of oppertunity.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand you're dead. Thanks for playing.

:vaarsuvius::Hooray for Celerity! Viva contingent spell!

Brock Samson
2008-11-19, 12:32 AM
So what happens when two wizards go up against each other and both cast celerity?

Vinotaur
2008-11-19, 12:33 AM
Does nobody remember that there's a race, I believe they're called Raptorans (?) that gets wings and has no level adjustment. Granted I'm not sure of their fly speed, and I know their capability to fly is based on how many Hit Dice they have. And aren't there a couple feats to add speed, increase manueverabillity, and then isn't there a prestige class like Aerial Avenger, something that increases your fly speed?

Nevermind on all that, does anyone know how many feet/round a person falls when they're free-falling? I'm thinking, active your Anti-Magic Torc, available in the Magic Item Compendium, then jump off your friend the giant eagle while making an excellent Knowledge: Geometry roll such that you're at terminal velocity when you hit them, the previous round activating your Bracers of True Strike (or whatever they're called in the MIC) to make sure you hit. If the wizard is in a flying Beholder skeleton, well, Sunder the skeleton, grab the feat that lets you attack immediately after making a successful Sunder (with maybe a little judicious judging from your DM that this is capable purely based on cool points) and get your attack on the wizard with no cover, using Improved Grab after your hit and pulling them down to the earth with you while in the AMF.

Hm, I now have the incredible desire to pick up some ranks in Knowledge: Geography and just launch myself off of cliffs at opponents, even if they're on the ground and there's no need to.

So with judicious making up your own rules, and ignoring all the requirements of Combat Brute you can successfully fail to do anything at all, because the Wizard saw you eagle, and killed it with an Orb and you plummeted to your 20d6 damage.

Yes, you can be a Raptoran, and when you are, you are still plainly visible to the Wizard with a better spot mod, 1/4th normal penalties, the ability to shut you down easily, and a faster fly speed then you. Good luck.


If you use a fighter with all the mage-slayer feats, spiked chain with the magebane enchantment and armor with various energy resistances.

(Oh and being a Dwarf will help thanks to the +2 to save against spells)

as long as you win the init. you should be golden because with a 10 ft reach the wizard cant back up and cast without getting hit with attack of oppertunity.

Okay: 1) He's flying in the air, how did you get adjacent to him? If you aren't adjacent then he just kills you.
2) He's got swift action teleports that don't provoke AoOs. You can't keep him confined.
3) He's got concealment anyway, so you still don't get AoOs.
4) Greater Mirror Image much?
5) Celerity, but I fell bad about using that.

Vinotaur
2008-11-19, 12:37 AM
So what happens when two wizards go up against each other and both cast celerity?

Well, the one that wins Init doesn't need to cast Celerity until after the other one does, so he casts it after and goes first.

It's like instant card stacking in Magic. Last in First out.

Brock Samson
2008-11-19, 12:41 AM
Isn't D&D all about making up rules when you do something so truly outlandish there's just no way to handle it?

And is your Wizard really going to kill every single giant eagle that flies within a mile of him?

And do you really think my character cares about 20d6 damage? hah! Come on an average of 70? Seriously, I laugh.

As far as the Mage Slayer feats, doesn't one of them allow you ignore all magical concealment penalties, and since you have blindfight already mundane concealment isn't so bad, plus you've got True Seeing up through a variety of items, and you take the feat that allows you to take an AoO even when a caster casts a spell as a swift action.

Still, Celerity is horrifically broken.

Stupendous_Man
2008-11-19, 12:44 AM
Nevermind on all that, does anyone know how many feet/round a person falls when they're free-falling?

Physics could be of us here.

monty
2008-11-19, 12:46 AM
Physics could be of us here.

All right, you want to get started working on the coefficient of friction for every possible scenario?

Brock Samson
2008-11-19, 12:46 AM
And I don't know if anyone's said anything regarding a High DC Dominate Person. I'm sure there's some spell or other that they'll have persisted though that grants immunity to it.

monty
2008-11-19, 12:48 AM
And I don't know if anyone's said anything regarding a High DC Dominate Person. I'm sure there's some spell or other that they'll have persisted though that grants immunity to it.

Protection from Evil (or appropriate alignment). Done.

Brock Samson
2008-11-19, 12:51 AM
They will have to persist protection from every alignment all the time though wouldn't they? And couldn't that be dispelled?

Vinotaur
2008-11-19, 12:53 AM
Isn't D&D all about making up rules when you do something so truly outlandish there's just no way to handle it?

No. No it isn't. And there are rules for what you described. It's called plummeting and missing the Wizard because he's not an idiot and he moves 30ft sideways.


And is your Wizard really going to kill every single giant eagle that flies within a mile of him?

He's going to kill every single one that has a person on it. Which by the way, he can see.



And do you really think my character cares about 20d6 damage? hah! Come on an average of 70? Seriously, I laugh.

No, I think you'll be dead before you hit the ground, because my move action is getting out of the way, and my standard action is doing 300 damage no save (oh yeah, and a couple negative levels).


As far as the Mage Slayer feats, doesn't one of them allow you ignore all magical concealment penalties, and since you have blindfight already mundane concealment isn't so bad, plus you've got True Seeing up through a variety of items, and you take the feat that allows you to take an AoO even when a caster casts a spell as a swift action.

1) It allows you to ignore miss chances, but it still doesn't negate concealment, so you still can't take a AoO against him.
2) What feat? I have never seen anyone ever point to this hypothetical feat, and it still doesn't help when they use their swift action to teleport 10-80ft (depending on level) without casting a spell.

So in conclusion, if you assume the Wizard uses the same number of splats as the other character, Wizard is 100% invulnerable to non-casters. Depending on the definition of non-caster. (For example, Wizard > Ranger, Psion counts as caster, though Wizard probably beat Psion, at least he has a chance.)

streakster
2008-11-19, 12:53 AM
They will have to persist protection from every alignment all the time though wouldn't they? And couldn't that be dispelled?

Nope. Blocks mind-affecting effects.

monty
2008-11-19, 12:54 AM
They will have to persist protection from every alignment all the time though wouldn't they? And couldn't that be dispelled?

No, you only need one Protection From to get protected from all compulsions. It can still be dispelled, though, just like every other buff.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-19, 12:54 AM
Isn't D&D all about making up rules when you do something so truly outlandish there's just no way to handle it?

And is your Wizard really going to kill every single giant eagle that flies within a mile of him?

And do you really think my character cares about 20d6 damage? hah! Come on an average of 70? Seriously, I laugh.

As far as the Mage Slayer feats, doesn't one of them allow you ignore all magical concealment penalties, and since you have blindfight already mundane concealment isn't so bad, plus you've got True Seeing up through a variety of items, and you take the feat that allows you to take an AoO even when a caster casts a spell as a swift action.

Still, Celerity is horrifically broken.

Until you show a credible way to get around the following you don't stand a chance:
1) Superior Invisibility
2) Mind Blank
3) Ghost Form
4) Shapechange (into a Shadesteel Golem)
5) Soulfire buckler
6) Nondetection (means that true seeing won't let you penetrate Superior Invisibility)
7) Flight (90 feet perfect fly speed)
8) Foresight (never flat-footed and always acts in surprise round)
9) Celerity (get's to act as an immediate action, meaning that he always goes first)
10) Ironguard (immunity to all metal weapons)
11) Immunity to all elemental energy types

And that's just for starters.

Breaw
2008-11-19, 12:56 AM
Physics could be of us here.

Bad stupendous-man, bad! RAW isn't physics, and you know that. :P

Objects fall 150 feet in the first round of free-fall, and 300 feet per round thereafter in DnD. Look under movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm) or planes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm). Neither is perfect, but together they strongly imply the above.

Terminal velocity for a human is roughly 120 mph if you are spread-eagle (1056 feet per round). If you streamline yourself you can go up to 210 mph (1848 feet per round).

Vinotaur
2008-11-19, 12:58 AM
And I don't know if anyone's said anything regarding a High DC Dominate Person. I'm sure there's some spell or other that they'll have persisted though that grants immunity to it.

Well first of all, a level 10 Caster casting Dominate Person has a DC of 24ish at best. Maybe an Exalted Beguiler could manage 28. Compare that to a Wizard with a save modifier of +6 Resistance + 8-12 base, depending on PrCing +2 Morale -2 Wisdom, and he's still got a pretty good chance against so built around it. And if they take Keen Intellect, you can just cry because they seriously have a Higher mod on their save then your DC.

On the other hand, depending on level, you have Prot from X with decent durations, and things like Disobedience or that level 8 undead spell at higher levels.

Of course, if they Persist Polymorph on themselves, you can't do anything because they'll probably be an Outsider anyway.

Vinotaur
2008-11-19, 01:00 AM
It can still be dispelled, though, just like every other buff.

Except of course, that it actually can't except by the most dedicated of dispel builds.

monty
2008-11-19, 01:03 AM
Except of course, that it actually can't except by the most dedicated of dispel builds.

What I meant is that there isn't anything special about it. It can be dispelled "just like any other buff." "Any other buff" is also difficult to dispel.

Brock Samson
2008-11-19, 01:03 AM
Tippy, those are quite a lot of spells to have persisted, is that really possible?

As far as dispelling, if both casters are of equal level, isn't there always going to be about a 50% chance of success? Without using additional feats like Elven Spell Lore.

Adumbration
2008-11-19, 01:04 AM
Until you show a credible way to get around the following you don't stand a chance:
1) Superior Invisibility
2) Mind Blank
3) Ghost Form
4) Shapechange (into a Shadesteel Golem)
5) Soulfire buckler
6) Nondetection (means that true seeing won't let you penetrate Superior Invisibility)
7) Flight (90 feet perfect fly speed)
8) Foresight (never flat-footed and always acts in surprise round)
9) Celerity (get's to act as an immediate action, meaning that he always goes first)
10) Ironguard (immunity to all metal weapons)
11) Immunity to all elemental energy types

And that's just for starters.
1) Skill trick from Complete Scoundrel that allows you to see invisible for one round. Not as in the spell, but as in "you see the invisible, no magic involved":
2) Irrelevant
3) Ghost-touch weapon
4) Doesn't make you invulnerable. Harder to kill, yes, but not invulnerable.
5) Irrelevant, besides, the melee can have it too.
6) Irrelevant, see 1st.
7) Nasty, but there are ways around it. Be an archer, for an example.
8) Again, nasty, but so what?
9) Be an Eternal Blade, use Island in Time, whack the wizard.
10) Ironwood arrows.
11) Does not protect from physical damage.

EDIT: Just saying, not all buffs are insurmountable.

monty
2008-11-19, 01:04 AM
Tippy, those are quite a lot of spells to have persisted, is that really possible?

As far as dispelling, if both casters are of equal level, isn't there always going to be about a 50% chance of success? Without using additional feats like Elven Spell Lore.

Incantatrix, and they'll have a really high CL.

Keld Denar
2008-11-19, 01:07 AM
Bout the only thing that I've come up with that can even come close to taking on a mid level wizard is a mid level cleric using some cheesey CL manipulation abuse. Grab 2 Rings of Greater Counterspelling and the spell Battle Magic Perception and you can counter the first 3 spells he'll toss at you in a given encounter using tweaked level Greater Dispel Magics. Then approach the caster to within 30' or so, and blast off a Dictum followed by a Holy Word using your tweaked out CL. Unless wizo boy is Lawful Good (and a bit of Communing could easily determine his alignment) he bites the big one. Celerity? Countered. Quickened Teleport/DimDoor? Countered. Regular Teleport? Countered. Close and kill.

How to tweak your CL? Bead of Karma, Orange IWN Stone, Divine Spell Power, possible abuse of Greater Consumptive Field if prep time is used (then you'd need Dictum+Blasphemy for kill condition), Inquisition Domain for +4 unnamed bonus to Dispel Checks, its really easy for a well thought out cleric.

Now, high level with crap like Astral Projection in play, that would be a lot rougher. Probably not possible. Up to level 16? My cleric could probably win.

Brock Samson
2008-11-19, 01:09 AM
I keep hearing about Incantrix but have never seen it, it sounds uber-bad-***.

How about: The Flu! It sets in when the wizard goes to sleep and causes him to have a thoroughly restless night, waking up he's unable to prepare his spells.

streakster
2008-11-19, 01:12 AM
1) Skill trick from Complete Scoundrel that allows you to see invisible for one round. Not as in the spell, but as in "you see the invisible, no magic involved":
2) Irrelevant
3) Ghost-touch weapon
4) Doesn't make you invulnerable. Harder to kill, yes, but not invulnerable.
5) Irrelevant, besides, the melee can have it too.
6) Irrelevant, see 1st.
7) Nasty, but there are ways around it. Be an archer, for an example.
8) Again, nasty, but so what?
9) Be an Eternal Blade, use Island in Time, whack the wizard.
10) Ironwood arrows.
11) Does not protect from physical damage.

EDIT: Just saying, not all buffs are insurmountable.

He's doing this all at once, you know. He's Tippy.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-19, 01:13 AM
1) Skill trick from Complete Scoundrel that allows you to see invisible for one round. Not as in the spell, but as in "you see the invisible, no magic involved":
Has a range of 30 feet. How are you getting within 30 feet to use it.

2) Irrelevant
It's relevance is in keeping you from having the wizard scryed on.

3) Ghost-touch weapon
Yep.

4) Doesn't make you invulnerable. Harder to kill, yes, but not invulnerable.
It's there mostly for the construct type and all it's immunities.

5) Irrelevant, besides, the melee can have it too.
Never said otherwise.

6) Irrelevant, see 1st.
Not really, it removes most of the potential ways of detecting the wizard.

7) Nasty, but there are ways around it. Be an archer, for an example.
An archer that can target the wizard how exactly? The skill trick has a range of 30 feet.

8) Again, nasty, but so what?
No surprise.

9) Be an Eternal Blade, use Island in Time, whack the wizard.
Still have to get within range.

10) Ironwood arrows.
Yep.

11) Does not protect from physical damage.
Nope. That would be the DR 15/adamantium which because of Ironguard effectively becomes DR 15/-

Adumbration
2008-11-19, 01:14 AM
He's doing this all at once, you know. He's Tippy.
I know. So what?

Still, I know that in his next post he's going to pile up even more buffs and other stuff. I just sort of popped in, saw him claiming those buffs made him invulnerable.

MeklorIlavator
2008-11-19, 01:16 AM
I know. So what?

So how do you counter all of those at once?


Still, I know that in his next post he's going to pile up even more buffs and other stuff. I just sort of popped in, saw him claiming those buffs made him invulnerable.

He actually hasn't. All he's done is asked for clarification/refuted you.

Adumbration
2008-11-19, 01:18 AM
He actually hasn't. All he's done is asked for clarification/refuted you.

Last time I entered this thread was on page... 3, I think. So you're talking to the wrong person.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-19, 01:18 AM
I know. So what?

Still, I know that in his next post he's going to pile up even more buffs and other stuff. I just sort of popped in, saw him claiming those buffs made him invulnerable.

I never claimed that those buffs made him invulnerable. In fact there are ways to overcome them. Invulnerability happens when you use Genesis to make your own demiplane that is entirely a dead magic zone except for 1 little 5 foot square, said demiplane can also only be entered by you. Now the wizard uses all his buffs and throws in astral projection to explore (this isn't a complete explanation by any means).

monty
2008-11-19, 01:19 AM
Last time I entered this thread was on page... 3, I think. So you're talking to the wrong person.

Except, you know, the post you made on the previous page, which he just refuted.

Yukitsu
2008-11-19, 01:22 AM
Does nobody remember that there's a race, I believe they're called Raptorans (?) that gets wings and has no level adjustment. Granted I'm not sure of their fly speed, and I know their capability to fly is based on how many Hit Dice they have. And aren't there a couple feats to add speed, increase manueverabillity, and then isn't there a prestige class like Aerial Avenger, something that increases your fly speed?

They don't last enough rounds at this level to manage the kind of non-sense described as necessary (asuming werecroc, which was required earlier), not even for an ambush fly/AMF. Even without level adjustment from the were template, they can only fly up 20 upwards, and as such, don't really do well at this. They can only do runs in a straight line as well, and even a double move won't make it. They flat out fail, even if I don't spot them before they lift off, and they cast AMF on the ground, and then try to fly up.


Nevermind on all that, does anyone know how many feet/round a person falls when they're free-falling? I'm thinking, active your Anti-Magic Torc, available in the Magic Item Compendium, then jump off your friend the giant eagle while making an excellent Knowledge: Geometry roll such that you're at terminal velocity when you hit them, the previous round activating your Bracers of True Strike (or whatever they're called in the MIC) to make sure you hit. If the wizard is in a flying Beholder skeleton, well, Sunder the skeleton, grab the feat that lets you attack immediately after making a successful Sunder (with maybe a little judicious judging from your DM that this is capable purely based on cool points) and get your attack on the wizard with no cover, using Improved Grab after your hit and pulling them down to the earth with you while in the AMF.

You can't ever sunder a skeleton. You can't avoid being seen when you are on the eagle. You can't hit at terminal velocity without them seeing you and moving out of the way. You can't activate all that stuff and have an AMF at the same time. Mind you, the wizard detailed is a level 10 core only wizard that hasn't been optimized.


Hm, I now have the incredible desire to pick up some ranks in Knowledge: Geography and just launch myself off of cliffs at opponents, even if they're on the ground and there's no need to.

There is a thread detailing unintelligent character deaths on the wizards of the coasts boards, and it details this one in particular.

Brock Samson
2008-11-19, 01:30 AM
I will have to go check out that thread.

And as far as the raptoran, he could get in the air first by a simple fly potion. Or, better, on the back of a giant eagle, high in the air. Read: on the back. How exactly does your wizard see him when there's an eagle between him and the wizard?

As far as seeing upwards as well, maybe have a distraction on the ground. If he's looking down he isn't looking up, and if there's a bunch of peons trying to throw spears at him he won't really be concerned but will know why his Spidey-Sense is going off. At least he thinks he knows why.

And what about THE FLU?!?!

Adumbration
2008-11-19, 01:32 AM
Except, you know, the post you made on the previous page, which he just refuted.

Ah, I missed that post. C'est la vie.

monty
2008-11-19, 01:33 AM
I will have to go check out that thread.

And as far as the raptoran, he could get in the air first by a simple fly potion. Or, better, on the back of a giant eagle, high in the air. Read: on the back. How exactly does your wizard see him when there's an eagle between him and the wizard?

As far as seeing upwards as well, maybe have a distraction on the ground. If he's looking down he isn't looking up, and if there's a bunch of peons trying to throw spears at him he won't really be concerned but will know why his Spidey-Sense is going off. At least he thinks he knows why.

And what about THE FLU?!?!

Spot checks don't work that way.

And with magic, diseases are trivial.

Yukitsu
2008-11-19, 01:38 AM
I will have to go check out that thread.

And as far as the raptoran, he could get in the air first by a simple fly potion. Or, better, on the back of a giant eagle, high in the air. Read: on the back. How exactly does your wizard see him when there's an eagle between him and the wizard?

In general, a creature doesn't block very well, as succubi also are at varied elevations and have good spot. You can't use allies to hide, and at this level likely don't have hide in plain sight. Raptorans drinking fly potions either make it up to the skull throne and get to AMF, or they get to AMF and not make it to the throne. They can't do all that and still act. Any elevation where you can claim sufficient cover from the eagle to not be seen, you can be seen as you fall, prior to making contact.

I also like how a level 6 spell is required to take down a level 10 wizard, and you are still failing.


As far as seeing upwards as well, maybe have a distraction on the ground. If he's looking down he isn't looking up, and if there's a bunch of peons trying to throw spears at him he won't really be concerned but will know why his Spidey-Sense is going off. At least he thinks he knows why.

He doesn't use spidey sense at this level. He gets a succubous to do the spotting, and they will succeed, because mooks shooting spears won't do anything to them, due to DR and decent AC. They also aren't combatants.


And what about THE FLU?!?!

DC 10.