PDA

View Full Version : I've been working out! (Mechanic) - [PEACH]



SurlySeraph
2008-11-21, 12:53 PM
It's always bothered me that in DnD, there is no natural way to increase your ability scores. Sure, you can add inherent bonuses to your stats with Wishes or by leveling, but the first option is a spell and a character only gets 5 stat increases from levels 1-20.
Most of us have seen people study and get a lot smarter, or spend more time studying social skills and talking with people and become more likable. And I'm pretty sure all of us have seen how much stronger someone can get in just a couple months of weightlifting.
Therefore, I created this mechanic by which characters can increase their ability scores by training. The higher your existing ability score is, the harder it is and the longer it takes to increase it. While increased Strength is a lot easier to measure than, say, increased Wisdom, I feel that the time it takes to increase a stat under this mechanic is fairly realistic. With all that said, I would really like comments on this; I want to make this mechanic both as realistic and as usable as possible.
The Working Out mechanic is intended primarily for low-magic, mainly gritty games, since having a higher inherent bonus would make stat-boosting magic items a bit too powerful, in my opinion.
And so, without further ado:

Working Out

A character may increase an ability score by exercising or studying. To increase an ability score, you make a series of training checks. A training check is an ability score check in the ability score that you want to increase.
To increase an ability score by one point, you must succeed on a number of training checks equal to twice your current ability score. The DC of the training checks is equal to your current ability score.
For example, a character with 12 Strength would need to make 24 DC 12 Strength checks to increase his Strength to 13. Once he had 13 Strength, he could increase his strength to 14 by making 26 DC 13 Strength checks.
You may only make one training check per day, and making a training check takes 2 hours. You may make a Constitution training check as part of overland travel without taking up extra time, as long as you are moving on your own power.
Training an ability score is difficult and tiring. After making a training check for a physical ability score, a character is fatigued until he next rests. After making a training check for a mental ability score, a character is mentally fatigued and unfocused: until he next rests, he takes a -2 penalty to Wisdom and Intelligence, and takes longer to complete skill checks. All skill checks that normally take a move action or standard action to complete take a full-round action to complete; skill checks that normally take longer take twice as long as they normally would.
You cannot make training checks while affected by a disease. Your successes on training checks do not have to be consecutive for your ability score to increase.
A character cannot increase an ability score to more than 4 higher than its original value at character creation by training checks, no matter how many training checks he succeeds on. For example, a character that started with 10 Wisdom who trained his Wisdom to 14 would not be allowed to make further Wisdom training checks.
At the DMs discretion, some training checks may not be made under certain circumstances. For example, characters might not be allowed to make Charisma training checks if there are no sentient beings around for them to interact with.

SurlySeraph
2008-11-22, 03:11 PM
No comments? Really? If the wall-o'-text introduction is putting you off, just skip it and start reading where it says "Working Out." I would really like a second opinion on how balanced/effective this is.

Ziegander
2008-11-22, 03:22 PM
you can add inherent bonuses to your stats by leveling.

This is exactly how DnD represents "working out." If you want more increases than that make the ability bumps come in at 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter (I do).

Kroy
2008-11-22, 03:22 PM
One question. If I had a strength of 12, made 23 of the 24 necessary checks, then failed the last one, do I need to make 24 more checks, or just one?

SurlySeraph
2008-11-22, 03:41 PM
This is exactly how DnD represents "working out." If you want more increases than that make the ability bumps come in at 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter (I do).

I know. But I want characters to be able to increase their stats without gaining BAB, feats, etc., because I think it simulates reality better.


One question. If I had a strength of 12, made 23 of the 24 necessary checks, then failed the last one, do I need to make 24 more checks, or just one?

Just one. The successes don't have to be consecutive.

Ziegander
2008-11-22, 03:50 PM
I know. But I want characters to be able to increase their stats without gaining BAB, feats, etc., because I think it simulates reality better.

I don't want to sound like a jackass, so I apologize if I do, but DnD is a game in which the player characters are adventurers, not where they are body builders, or speech writers, or something else weird like that. If the players are spending hours each day "working out" those are hours each day that they aren't adventuring. All this does is say, "Everyone gets +4 to all ability scores at 1st level." Why? Because instead of adventuring everyone will just work out until they've max'd their bonus - THEN go adventuring.

A better way to simulate this sort of thing might be a Prestige Class which anyone can enter at 2nd level. It has as many levels as you want to take, and at each level you get no bonus to saves and no BAB, but you gain a +2 inherent bonus to the ability score of your choice. Skill points would be an odd one, probably have the player choose one of their existing classes and the PrC grants skills and skill points as that class. You might also consider granting +1 to existing class level every so often. Since all the PrC grants is stat boosts it can be reasonably assumed that given any amount of downtime the player character is "working out" to increase that ability score.

SurlySeraph
2008-11-22, 03:54 PM
If the DM is willing to give the party a few years of downtime to boost their stats, then that would be the case. But in my experience, characters usually have to go between urgent quests constantly; when's the last time one of your characters decided to spend several months crafting items?

Piedmon_Sama
2008-11-22, 04:00 PM
I really like it. It's similar to something I homebrewed my first time DMing a campaign way back in 2005. I allowed characters to sacrifice I think 4 skill points to raise an ability score by 1 once a month, or something like that--I don't specifically remember anymore. I think your way sounds better than mine, though. I'd love to use this in a game in the future.

Nefarion Xid
2008-11-22, 04:21 PM
By the same token, a Fighter's strength score should go down if he sits around for 3 months without training. Or worse, he has a stint in prison and doesn't have access to equipment or even proper nutrition.

I'd suggest just adopting the 4E method for boosting Ability scores. You get +1 to two different stats at the 4th, 8th, 14th, 18th, 24th and 28th level. And at 11 and 21 all of your stats increase by 1. Gives you a lot more wiggle room, and the chance to advance a secondary stat that would get neglected under 3E rules. But, it doesn't introduce any potentially abuse-able mechanics into your game. Though, I can't say right now what the possible ramifications of this sort of power gain would be in 3E, especially when combined with the ability boosting items that are absent in 4E.

Ziegander
2008-11-22, 04:29 PM
If the DM is willing to give the party a few years of downtime to boost their stats, then that would be the case. But in my experience, characters usually have to go between urgent quests constantly; when's the last time one of your characters decided to spend several months crafting items?

How do you envision players in your campaign to use this mechanic? I envision every character working out as often as possible to increase their highest stat, because why wouldn't they? I also envision you ignoring any working out time because how would you roleplay it, and even if you tried it would be supremely boring. If you decided, "well, I'm going to punish them for working out today" you are punishing the players for using an option you provided them and seem like a hypocrite.

What am I saying? You are just making ability increases happen more often throughout the levels because the time, and the DC, and all that doesn't mean anything. If you don't intend on players wasting time to work out all you are doing is making ability increases happen at 3rd and every 3 levels thereafter as I already suggested. If you do intend on players wasting time, it doesn't matter, because they are wasting time and not adventuring which is not what the game cares about so you might as well say, "everyone gets +4 to all abilities at 1st level."

Piedmon_Sama
2008-11-22, 05:11 PM
By the same token, a Fighter's strength score should go down if he sits around for 3 months without training. Or worse, he has a stint in prison and doesn't have access to equipment or even proper nutrition.

Aside from the nutrition thing, because that's massively complicated, it's not hard to simulate ability decrease from deprivation. I ended up never using this rule, but just in case, I decided deprivation would force a PC to make endurance checks during long confinement or suffer ability damage of 1d3 Str/Con per month, with 3 in each being the lowest you can go. Also solitary confinement provokes a SAN check for 30 days' isolation. It doesn't have to be medically accurate, IMO, but it adds a lot of verisimilitude to the game and will make your characters fear being imprisoned, as they should.

EDIT: On a side note, one of my early boss-villains was a fighter who had once been an elite soldier but was now middle-aged and gone to seed. He'd lost 2 points of STR from his original stats and I decided his BaB had decayed by an equal amount. And since he had become a fat bastard, I treated him as always carrying a Medium Load. He still did outrageous damage with the poleaxe I gave him, leading to hilarity as the PCs scrambled out of his stumbling reach while he yelled at them between wheezes and puffs to stand and fight (I thought it was funny, anyway >>).

SurlySeraph
2008-11-24, 01:55 PM
How do you envision players in your campaign to use this mechanic? I envision every character working out as often as possible to increase their highest stat, because why wouldn't they? I also envision you ignoring any working out time because how would you roleplay it, and even if you tried it would be supremely boring. If you decided, "well, I'm going to punish them for working out today" you are punishing the players for using an option you provided them and seem like a hypocrite.

I envision them using it pretty much every day that they don't expect a combat encounter. I wouldn't roleplay the time, just like I wouldn't roleplay Craft checks. And I would punish them for working out occasionally, with ambushes and stuff. How often would depend on the campaign's general tone.


What am I saying? You are just making ability increases happen more often throughout the levels because the time, and the DC, and all that doesn't mean anything. If you don't intend on players wasting time to work out all you are doing is making ability increases happen at 3rd and every 3 levels thereafter as I already suggested. If you do intend on players wasting time, it doesn't matter, because they are wasting time and not adventuring which is not what the game cares about so you might as well say, "everyone gets +4 to all abilities at 1st level."

I primarily intended this mechanic for games with a lot of downtime and travel time. Like I said, it's better for low-magic games where there are no fast ways to increase your ability scores. If the characters have to choose between moving further towards their goal and working out, that's good. If they can work out all they want and then just teleport to where they need to go, working out just lets them be overpowered. I don't quite understand what you mean in your last sentence.

Bandededed
2008-11-26, 08:27 AM
I envision them using it pretty much every day that they don't expect a combat encounter.

One problem might be that characters will delay working out until after they have finished whatever it is they are doing that day, and decide that they have time for it.

Then again, ninja's usually attack during the night, right? :smallamused:

You might want to say that it takes a full 8 hours of rest (or whatever you feel is necessary) to recover from the negative effects.

Otherwise, I would totally use this. I wonder if a Fighter / other melee class could use a physical encounter as training time? They are likely doing intense labor, or it's equivalent, even if only for a short time.

Oh, and I would add some sort of regression mechanic, something like - "If the character does not make a training check for an ability score which he has increased through training within seven days from his last, he loses 1 point from that ability score. This cannot bring his ability score lower than it was originally." This would also put a sort of limit on how many ability scores anyone could keep up with, especially if random encounters are popping up occasionally.

Edit: Also, just in case a character in these low-magic settings would get a stat enhancing item (which may or may not be the only one ever) training checks should probably still be made as if they weren't wearing it, or PC's will be un-equipping stuff for training. Unless that's a flavor you want.

SurlySeraph
2008-11-26, 02:57 PM
One problem might be that characters will delay working out until after they have finished whatever it is they are doing that day, and decide that they have time for it.

Then again, ninja's usually attack during the night, right? :smallamused:

Precisely. :smallamused:


You might want to say that it takes a full 8 hours of rest (or whatever you feel is necessary) to recover from the negative effects.

Good idea. I'll add that.


Otherwise, I would totally use this. I wonder if a Fighter / other melee class could use a physical encounter as training time? They are likely doing intense labor, or it's equivalent, even if only for a short time.

Hm. Maybe, but probably not. I don't want to make it too easy to increase stats, but that is logical.


Oh, and I would add some sort of regression mechanic, something like - "If the character does not make a training check for an ability score which he has increased through training within seven days from his last, he loses 1 point from that ability score. This cannot bring his ability score lower than it was originally." This would also put a sort of limit on how many ability scores anyone could keep up with, especially if random encounters are popping up occasionally.

I need to think about that. Though that is balancing and realistic, players tend to get pissed off when their characters lose power.


Edit: Also, just in case a character in these low-magic settings would get a stat enhancing item (which may or may not be the only one ever) training checks should probably still be made as if they weren't wearing it, or PC's will be un-equipping stuff for training. Unless that's a flavor you want.

That's a good idea. I'll add that.

@V: I know. But I want to have a more simulationist system to model it, as a variant rule.

Innis Cabal
2008-11-26, 03:02 PM
You get points as you gain 4 levels, regardless of what you level in. Thats how they show it.

Eighth_Seraph
2008-11-26, 07:32 PM
I really like this houserule, Seraph. I've been meaning to find a good way to represent studying or training in-game. After all, I imagine that a frustrated wizard might give the half-orc barbarian some tutelage, or that the bard might provide some lessons on not offending random passers-by. Good system, overall.

It does seem to me, however, that characters should include the increased difficulty of work-out checks due to magic bonuses to activity scores, but that's a very minor nitpick.

cdawg
2008-11-27, 09:01 PM
ive always had a major problem with this as well. it really doesnt make sense that somebody could be of a certain amount of strength for months, then all of a sudden he passes an arbritrary amount of experience and his muscles just bulge out of his shirt and give him bonuses. not to mention, you can increase in attributes which you barely used at all - a fighter spends weeks tracking around in the wilderness slaying bugbears, and suddenly his charisma goes up? So I think this is a good thought. The main problems I have with it is -
a) its sort of ugly and unwieldy. Keeping tabs on who worked out what amounts in which stats over the course of an entire campaign which lasts for dozens of sessions over many weeks seems like a big hassle, especially since so many tests are required in order to improve. I don't really have a solution to this but you might just think about how you could make this more intuitive, easier, more streamlined, and involve less dice-rolling and record-keeping, because that always slows down and screws up gameplay.
b) theres something sort of unrealisitc about it. Using this system, as people have pointed out, somebody COULD theoretically spend a couple months of downtime training every single stat all the way up to max - giving you some kind of freakish ubermensch who is incredibly strong, frighteningly intelligent, stunningly beautiful, etc. If the real world worked that way, wouldn't everyone do this? again, i don't have any real solution for you but it could be something to think about. How could you make it so that its more like how the real world works, without being overcomplicated and cumbersome?

Stycotl
2008-11-29, 03:18 AM
generally i just hand them out occasionally as i see the character 'working' on that stat--through gameplay--as kind of an xp award of some sort.