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Gardakan
2008-11-22, 05:40 PM
I need to make a character to begin to play with three others players. I was the MD for 5-6 games but i wanted to play and a player*to be a DM.

So the party had : Dwarf Fighter 7, Dwarf Protector 1 - Common Elven Sorcerer 1, Fighter 6, Arcane Archer 1 and Human Priestess 8.

I think to do a wizard or a rogue-wizard.

I've think of taking 5 levels of wizard but after, i don't know what to take. Rogue or Prestige Class.

My stats are

STR : 14
DEX : 19(21)
CON : 14
INT : 22(24)
WIS : 13
CHA : 15

I'm a grey elf.

Someone could send me the stats of the class Mage of the Arcane Order or War Wizard of Cormyr...

What should i take for feats?

I'm specialized in enchantment and my school banned are Necromancy and Illusion.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-22, 05:59 PM
What books and sources do you have access too, what are your goals for the character, and what power level do you want?

Keld Denar
2008-11-22, 06:00 PM
Hmmm, any chance you can retrain your forcus on enchantment? Enchantment is about the 2nd weakest school of magic. With the exception of a couple gems like Otto's Irresistable Dance (SUPERSTAR!) and Dominate X, most of the spells are rather lackluster and their effects could easily be replaced by other effects.

If you want wiz/rogue, I'd suggest conjuration or evocation (gasp) forcus. This gives you the largest number of rays and orbs to sneak attack with. Check out the Unseen Seer PrC from Complete Mage. Its easily accessable after level 5 (Rogue1/Wiz4) which means you'd be 3 levels deep into it at level 8. You can finish up with Arcane Trickster or Archmage as desired.

As a straight wizard, I'd suggest maybe a 1 level dip into Mindbender. This fits your Enchantement focus and gives you telepethy which qualifies you to take the Mindsight feat from Lords of Madness, which is all kinds of coolness. After that, any of the full caster PrCs are decent. Divine Oracle2/Loremaster3 is a nice 5 level investment, netting your Evasion and either a +2 to a given save (fort) or a +1 to hit (for rays). This also nets you UMD as a class skill, allowing for all kinds of abuse especially with a Bead of Karma (DC20 to simulate a 1st level cleric). 2-3 levels of Archmage are great for just about every build, but can't come any earlier than level 14 due to casting prereqs. Initiate of the 7fold Veils is also accessable, even to an enchanter, but is rather feat intensive and late developing.

More info on desires would be helpful!

Gardakan
2008-11-22, 07:52 PM
I wanna do a wizard specialized in evocation finally. What do you suggest to me... i have 27 000 gp to spend but i count a tiara of intelligence + 2

I have access to all the books and class. I just need to prove that the class exist to my DM...

Gardakan
2008-11-22, 09:59 PM
So i will do that...

Wizard 5, Unseen Seer 3
I have some tricky skills and i have my full spellcaster progression...

Maybre i could do that

Rogue 1, Wizard 4, Unseen Seer 2 , Arcane Trickster 1

The unseen seer is awesome. Thanks to the people that make me know of the existence of that class...

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-23, 07:36 AM
If you have access to all the books and are going for pure power just take Incantatrix (Players Guide to FR) followed by 1 level of Mindbender and 4 levels of Archmage.

Gardakan
2008-11-23, 05:37 PM
My god... Incantatrix it's so fantastic. My friend show me all the class.

For the Spellcraft i'm ok...

I've a +28 bonus in the skill at the level 8...

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-23, 05:44 PM
That should be enough I suppose.

Be warned though, using Incantatrix to it's full potential is likely to earn you the DM's wrath and result in some random event killing you with no chance of survival.

wadledo
2008-11-23, 07:29 PM
That should be enough I suppose.

Be warned though, using Incantatrix to it's full potential is likely to earn you the DM's wrath and result in some random event killing you with no chance of survival.

Though, if he can't survive anything the DM throws at him by playing a fully optimized wizard, then it's Darwinism, which means we are better off.

Gardakan
2008-11-23, 08:15 PM
I have pretty good defense.

Fortitude : + 8
Reflexes : + 11
Will : +12

AC : 24

HP : 53

And some pretty spells for hard core situation...

Dimensional Door, Expeditious Retreat, Fly and Greater Invisibility...

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-23, 08:23 PM
And when the DM get's fed up and throws a fully optimized Incantatrix at you? :smallwink:

wadledo
2008-11-23, 08:37 PM
And when the DM get's fed up and throws a fully optimized Incantatrix at you? :smallwink:

That's when you pull out Pun-pun.:smalltongue::smallamused:

Yodaman23
2008-11-23, 11:01 PM
I'd say go full wizard. I have never seen a very effective rogue/wizard.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-24, 12:00 AM
I'd say go full wizard. I have never seen a very effective rogue/wizard.Beguiler. :smallamused:

Eldariel
2008-11-24, 05:36 AM
I'd say go full wizard. I have never seen a very effective rogue/wizard.

Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10/whatever 4 with Practiced Spellcaster is fairly efficient. Rogue 1/Wizard 4/X is doable too, but Wizard 5 gives you Spontaneous Divination, which every Unseen Seer wants.

Heliomance
2008-11-24, 06:21 AM
[thread hijack]
I'm also considering a Wizard build - I'm thinking Transmuter 5/War Weaver 5/Incantatrix 10. How good is this, and is it playable all the way through?
[/thread hijack]

olentu
2008-11-24, 06:51 AM
Which 3 schools of magic are being lost in this build.

Gardakan
2008-11-24, 07:20 AM
I'm considering doing that...

Rogue 1/ Wizard 4/ Unseen Seer 2/ Arcane Trickster 1 and more...

I want to play a roguish wizard. I cast spells like a level 7 wizard but i have sneak attack +2d6 like a level 3 rogue...

Heliomance
2008-11-24, 07:39 AM
Which 3 schools of magic are being lost in this build.

Evocation, Enchantment, and either Illusion or Necromancy. Focus on buffing, with debuffs as a secondary.

Eldariel
2008-11-24, 07:52 AM
I'm considering doing that...

Rogue 1/ Wizard 4/ Unseen Seer 2/ Arcane Trickster 1 and more...

I want to play a roguish wizard. I cast spells like a level 7 wizard but i have sneak attack +2d6 like a level 3 rogue...

Arcane Trickster has pretty ugly entry requirements. Also, it only has 4+Int skills per level. Unseen Seer, while having slightly slower SA advancement, has more skills, better BAB, great class features (learn any Divinations? OMG! That gets you Hunter's Eye [PHBII] for extra SA damage, Guided Shot [SC] for ignoring stupid obstacles with rays et al. and Sniper's Shot [SC] for Sneak Attacks at long range, etc.), while Divination Spell Power can be fixed via. Practiced Spellcaster. Spellwarp Sniper is a good finish if you've got Able Learner - 4+Int skills, Sudden Strike for Rays and some decent abilities.

Weezer
2008-11-24, 08:20 AM
Evocation, Enchantment, and either Illusion or Necromancy. Focus on buffing, with debuffs as a secondary.
If you want debuffs keep necromancy, it is the master of debuffs

Eldariel
2008-11-24, 09:11 AM
It's more like Abjuration or Necromancy. Illusion gives you all your best defenses ((Greater) Mirror Images, Displacements, Invisibilities, etc.) along with the whole Evocation (in Shadow Evocations), fixing the worst things you'd miss there, and a slew of super utility-spells like Major Image, Simulacrum, Project Image, etc. Oh, and stuff like Shadow Walk.

Heliomance
2008-11-24, 11:47 AM
One of the requirements for Incantatrix is that you've not banned Abjuration.

Eldariel
2008-11-24, 01:04 PM
One of the requirements for Incantatrix is that you've not banned Abjuration.

Ah yeah, Incantatrix. I was thinking of Focused Specialist, sorry. Necro.

Heliomance
2008-11-24, 01:18 PM
trouble is, Necromancy has some incredibly good debuffs in it.

Eldariel
2008-11-24, 01:28 PM
trouble is, Necromancy has some incredibly good debuffs in it.

It's a smaller loss than Illusion, Conjuration or Transmutation though - those are the Big 3. You can debuff with Conjuration pretty well.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-24, 01:31 PM
trouble is, Necromancy has some incredibly good debuffs in it.Bannable schools, in general, end up running out, at which point that one more lost school hurts. Divination is legally unbannable, and too good to consider banning anyways.
Conjuration is worth begging your DM to let you ban Divination for.
Transmutation is better than Conjuration.
Illusion has a lot of versatility, giving you some of the best defenses and good will save spells, as well as Contingency. Not really bannable.
Necromancy has some of the best no-save debuffs and general 'Crush my enemy' spells, but it lacks some of the variety of other schools. Not much to lose, but what you do lose hurts like hell.
Enchantment has a lot of the best will-saves, and has some other fun stuff too, but you can duplicate everything it does elsewhere. Bannable.
Abjuration has a few really good spells, but all of them are on the Cleric list, so if you've got a pal you can ban it.
Evocation. Ban. Iot7V has to keep Abjuration, and Incantrix loses 3, so while Enchantment and Evocation are out, the third school will hurt no matter what. I recommend delaying taking Incantrix until you get the good Necro spells(most of them are 5th or lower), then banning it. The best effects in the school are low level, and you can still use them.

Eldariel
2008-11-24, 01:35 PM
I'd stop at level 4 spells simply since I don't want to delay Incantatrix any longer than that. Once you have Enervation, False Life, Animate Dead, the Rays and maybe Cause Fear-types for low levels, you've got all you need. Magic Jar is handy, but that's really most there is to it. And this allows you to start Incantatrix on level 8. Not as early as I'd like, but if you have Shadowcraft Mage or such to take before it, it's ok.

Of course, the reading that you don't lose the ability to cast spells you already know from the prohibitten school is, while perhaps RAW, clearly against RAI.

Heliomance
2008-11-24, 01:41 PM
Wait - you keep spells you already know when you ban a school? If so, that's fine, as the build doesn't go into Incantatrix until 10. I was planning on finishing War Weaver before hitting Incantatrix.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-11-24, 01:42 PM
Wait - you keep spells you already know when you ban a school?Schools are normally banned before your first level of Wizard. Incantrix is the exception, and so it works a bit wonky, and IMHO allows you to keep spells you could cast before leveling in it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-24, 01:45 PM
The smart choice is elf generalist who takes spontaneous divination at 5th level and ban's evocation when they enter Incantatrix at 6th. See if you can convince your DM to let you make use of the domain wizard variant as well. Specializing isn't really worth it unless you take focused specialist (and even then I personally don't really like it).

Eldariel
2008-11-24, 02:05 PM
Your lose out on Abrupt Jaunt though. Non-Elves prefer specialization anyways, especially on level 1-20 game. Divination Specialization was a great choice until Spontaneous Divination was printed - now Conjurer, focused or not, is pretty much optimal (although if Abrupt Jaunt isn't allowed, Transmutation is comparable even with Polymorph-line banned).

Vinotaur
2008-11-24, 02:28 PM
If you plan on playing at high level a Familiar is way better then Abrupt Jaunt.

Familiar provides extra spells each round, can UMD wands for your protection (like Mirror Image and such), And can benefit from your buffs, including Shapechange into a Dragon and Breath Fire (/Lightning/Whatever).

And you already have immediate action defenses.

Eldariel
2008-11-24, 02:31 PM
If you plan on playing at high level a Familiar is way better then Abrupt Jaunt.

Familiar provides extra spells each round, can UMD wands for your protection (like Mirror Image and such), And can benefit from your buffs, including Shapechange into a Dragon and Breath Fire (/Lightning/Whatever).

And you already have immediate action defenses.

Eh, there's always Obtain Familiar. It really comes down to whether Abrupt Jaunt is worth one feat; on low levels, definitely. On higher levels, naa. I mean, you do get better familiar progression with Obtain Familiar (since it works for PrCs), but the important Familiar-abilities are independent of class levels anyways, so it's while Obtain Familiar is slightly better than the Familiar class feature, overall the price of Abrupt Jaunt while maintaining familiar is quite precisely a feat.

Although when talking about realistic scenarios, I'd never factor Polymorph-line into it. I suppose you could cast Tenser's+Bite+whatever on it and have it go to town though. And it can Wand no-save spells, of course. And skill monkey with the best of them for Unseen Seers and the like.

Vinotaur
2008-11-24, 02:36 PM
Eh, there's always Obtain Familiar. It really comes down to whether Abrupt Jaunt is worth one feat; on low levels, definitely. On higher levels, naa. I mean, you do get better familiar progression with Obtain Familiar (since it works for PrCs), but the important Familiar-abilities are independent of class levels anyways, so it's while Obtain Familiar is slightly better than the Familiar class feature, overall the price of Abrupt Jaunt while maintaining familiar is quite precisely a feat.

Although when talking about realistic scenarios, I'd never factor Polymorph-line into it. I suppose you could cast Tenser's+Bite+whatever on it and have it go to town though. And it can Wand no-save spells, of course. And skill monkey with the best of them for Unseen Seers and the like.

And starting at level 11 it's a free quicken on 4-7 spells a day.

Eldariel
2008-11-24, 02:36 PM
And starting at level 11 it's a free quicken on 4-7 spells a day.

Indeed. I didn't feel the need to cover what you already had.

Vinotaur
2008-11-24, 04:13 PM
Indeed. I didn't feel the need to cover what you already had.

Well you covered everything else.

Eldariel
2008-11-24, 04:43 PM
Well you covered everything else.

I suppose. I felt it bore mentioning that while Polymorph usually isn't available, "Tank Familiar" isn't a totally lost cause and that UMD has offensive implications as well.

Gardakan
2008-11-26, 07:44 AM
My familiar is boosting my Reflexes...

If i'm doing an Incantarix after level 5 of wizard. I banned the school evocation but before the level 6 i take some great spells of evocation(magic missile, wall of wind and fireball).

But i think also to multiclass in that

Wizard 4/Rogue 1/Unseen Seer2(Just because i need to put a 10 in a skill i need the level 7)/Arcane Trickster 1 and go up....


I have a spell progression of level 7 for a level 8 and i continue to have sneak attack on a regular base.

Do you know the name of the object in the magic item compendium... that's rogue vest or something like that. That's boost your sneak attack. What's the real name and the cost...

What do you suggest to me to do. I really consider the two...

Gao
2008-11-26, 07:52 AM
Sup, Batman.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500

Gardakan
2008-11-26, 08:07 AM
I saw that post before and i read it. What do you wanna show me with that post again...

Paul H
2008-11-26, 05:22 PM
Hi

What book is Incantatrix from? Seem to remember it from old 3.0 campaign book I've got hanging around somewhere.... No sure if it's good for Beguilers as well as Wizards.

Poster seemed to want a roguish Wizard, which someone pointed out is a Beguiler. If you have access to MIC, just buy Goggles & Gloves from the raiment of the Four set to convert spells to Fireballs & magic Missiles. Arcane Disciple Travel domain will get you Fly.

Cheers
Paul H

Paul H
2008-11-26, 05:36 PM
Hi

OK - found it here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803

Beguiler 8/Incantatrix xxxx looks good. OK - you lose the 'rogue like' skill progression, and Advanced Learning, but you get better replacements.

Cheers
Paul H

Gardakan
2008-11-26, 06:58 PM
I was talking of the new Incantatrix... not the old and i have it stat.

Heliomance
2008-11-26, 08:49 PM
I think general consensus is that if you ban Evocation with Incantatrix, you lose the ability to cast any Evocation spells you already knew. Harsh, but it does make sense.

Thurbane
2008-11-26, 09:48 PM
Beguiler. :smallamused:
Seconded. Beguiler blows just about any other arcanist/rogue type build or PrC out of the water.

Pie Guy
2008-11-26, 09:54 PM
I think general consensus is that if you ban Evocation with Incantatrix, you lose the ability to cast any Evocation spells you already knew. Harsh, but it does make sense.

Actually, the text says that you can use spells you knew before you banned the school.

Heliomance
2008-11-27, 04:15 AM
Where? The only thing I've found on the subject is the bit from specialisation in the PHB, saying that you are totally unable of casting said spells even from scrolls or wands.

SoD
2008-11-27, 04:16 AM
Well, with the scrolls/wand issues, take one level of sorcerer, and you're set with them.

Heliomance
2008-11-27, 04:18 AM
But that requires a wizard taking a level in sorceror, which unless you're going for Ultimate Magus is worse than a monk without Flurry of Blows.

mostlyharmful
2008-11-27, 06:01 AM
There's also three nifty little feats in lost empires of FR that give you back one banned school, since Incatatrix is in FR material should be ok (there's nothing short of Manipulate Form that's more broken so anythings game). The new incantatrix is in the 3.5 FR players handbook I believe, certainly one of the FR setting manuels.

Gardakan
2008-11-27, 07:28 AM
I don't wanna spend 3 feats(i have 7) just to rehave back a school. I banned evocation but i have the main spells of that list. I have Fire Ball, Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt and Wall of Wind...

mostlyharmful
2008-11-27, 07:31 AM
I don't wanna spend 3 feats(i have 7) just to rehave back a school. I banned evocation but i have the main spells of that list. I have Fire Ball, Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt and Wall of Wind...

Didn't say it was optimal but some people just love the versatiliy. Most of the decent ones you don't have on that list come on line later through Illusion, just offering a possible idea.

BobVosh
2008-11-27, 07:33 AM
I don't wanna spend 3 feats(i have 7) just to rehave back a school. I banned evocation but i have the main spells of that list. I have Fire Ball, Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt and Wall of Wind...

What about contingency? All hail the mighty contingency. Observe Tippy for this.

Heliomance
2008-11-27, 07:37 AM
I don't wanna spend 3 feats(i have 7) just to rehave back a school. I banned evocation but i have the main spells of that list. I have Fire Ball, Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt and Wall of Wind...

How? How did you get access to that if you banned i?

BobVosh
2008-11-27, 08:02 AM
How? How did you get access to that if you banned i?

Banned from incantrix. Which specifically states you keep spells learned prior to the PrC. If I follow this thread correctly.

Gardakan
2008-11-27, 08:06 AM
Correctly BobVosh.... all the spells are of level 3 or lower in the evocation school...

Heliomance
2008-11-27, 11:58 AM
Banned from incantrix. Which specifically states you keep spells learned prior to the PrC. If I follow this thread correctly.

But it doesn't say that.


Focused Studies (Ex): At first level, the incantatrix gives up a school of magic so as to focus more on the remaining schools. She must choose a school of magic other than abjuration or divination as a prohibited school. This prohibited school is in addition to any others already chosen due to school specialisation. Thus, a specialised wizard taking this prestige class has three prohibited schools instead of two.

Note the distinct lack of a line saying "If the incantatrix knew spells of this school prior to entering the prestige class, she retains her ability to cast those spells."

Aneantir
2008-11-27, 04:18 PM
Note the distinct lack of a line saying "If the incantatrix knew spells of this school prior to entering the prestige class, she retains her ability to cast those spells."

It says it in the older version, in Magic of Faerun. It was not carried over to the newer version, as seen in Heliomance's quote, so it would only make sense for the intent to be that the Wizard would lose spells that he knew beforehand if they were of the banned school.

Gao
2008-11-27, 05:31 PM
Why is it so important? Evocation sucks. Direct Damage is 99% of the time less effective than Save or Sucks/Save or Lose/Save or Die spells.

Gardakan
2008-11-27, 07:42 PM
Why is it so important? Evocation sucks. Direct Damage is 99% of the time less effective than Save or Sucks/Save or Lose/Save or Die spells.

Evocation have some spells that could be useful. Magic Missile is a good spell quickened and lightning bolt and fireball are good. Scorching Ray is one of the best. Wall of wind is very useful...

Keld Denar
2008-11-27, 07:59 PM
Evocation have some spells that could be useful. Magic Missile is a good spell quickened and lightning bolt and fireball are good. Scorching Ray is one of the best. Wall of wind is very useful...

No, True Strike is agood spell quickened. Ray of Enfeeblement is a good spell quickened. MM is bad damage quickened. It really isn't that good.

Lightning Bolt and Fireball are both bad spells. Haste does way more damage than either of them, provided you have at least 1 other party member besides yourself.

Scorching Ray is good primarily due to Metamagic Abuse. It has some of the highest scaleable damage for a 2nd level spell, and when you stack a bunch of cheap metamagic onto it with Arcane Thesis and Incantrix, its great, but thats hardly a virtue to Scorching Ray.

Wind Wall is decent, one of the few. Its also easily replicable with Shadow Evocation at the cost of 1 spell level.

Collin152
2008-11-27, 08:00 PM
Evocation have some spells that could be useful. Magic Missile is a good spell quickened and lightning bolt and fireball are good. Scorching Ray is one of the best. Wall of wind is very useful...

I'm sorry, I think you meant to say "Wall of Force, Forcecage, and Contingency"
Those direct damage spells are in fact, the very ones that suck. A Quickened Magic Missile is a mid-level spell that you don't get to cast and accomplish something with.

Eldariel
2008-11-27, 08:01 PM
Eh, 99% of the time, you have better options than casting Lightning Bolt/Fireball - mass effect control spell can effectively "kill" all the creatures your Bolt/Ball would merely scrap. Same with save-or-Xs, you can easily deal with physically formidable opponents by destroying their mind (Int-damage, for example, is very efficient, and just Will-based save-or-loses), and there's always something that can be used against any opponent that does more than just shooting it.

The good spells of evocation tend to have multiple effects, and are generally Force-effects. For example, Wall of Force and Forcecage are fine spells (although Forcecage's costly material component makes it less eligible for casting and more eligible for scrolling), Contingency is one of the best defenses in the game period and...well, why am I typing it up - reference this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=968899). The evaluations are fairly accurate, and it'll introduce you to a bunch of awesome spells you never knew existed.

Heliomance
2008-11-27, 09:11 PM
Why is it so important? Evocation sucks. Direct Damage is 99% of the time less effective than Save or Sucks/Save or Lose/Save or Die spells.

It's important because I wouldn't be banning Evocation on the Incantatrix slot. I was originally planning to go Transmuter first, banning Evo and Enchantment, meaning that on entering Incantatrix I'd have to ban a third school. If I could keep the spells I already knew, I'd ban Necro, and keep the good low level debuffs. As it stands, I think I'll go Elf Generalist instead of Transmuter, and only ban Evo.

Paul H
2008-11-28, 08:28 PM
I was talking of the new Incantatrix... not the old and i have it stat.

Hi

I thought this was the new 3.5 Incantatrix...

And I agree about Beguilers. My main character in Living Greyhawk is a Dwarf Clr 3/Warmage 4/Mystic Theurge 5. It's his Dakon Cohort (Wiz 1/Beguiler 9) that normally steals the limelight.

Once Legion of Sentinels is cast, it's just Haste & game over. Only thing the duo can't cast is Fly. (Grumble..........).
Even at low levels with Unsettling Enchantment those Whelm spells are useful to reduce targets' AC/To Hit by 2. (Even if they make their saves).

Just read their spell list on PHBII Pg 11 to see what I mean.

Cheers
Paul H

Noedig
2010-02-15, 07:59 PM
Sorry if this is hijacking the thread but I had a plan for a wizard build that ill be using in my next game. I'm looking for advice as this will be my first wizard in roughly a decade. So without further ado:
Class: Wizard
Race: Tiefling (+2 Int, +2 Dex, LA+1, Darkness spell like ability, and some nifty resists)
Feats: 1st, Collegiate Wizard (begin play with 6 1st level spells known plus one per point of Int modifier, learn 4 spells at every level gained, plus 2 on know arcana. Normal is 3 1st level spells at level 1 and 2 new spells every time you get a level.)
Abilities: Unrolled, but let us a assume at least 18 int (16 w/o bonus)
Thats the skinny on him so far. I may eventually take rogue levels but that will be based on relevant roleplay. Suggestions?

Pluto
2010-02-15, 08:11 PM
Suggestions?
You'll probably have to start a new thread for this.
When you do, be sure to list the concept in as precise a manner as you can and the sources you can use for your character.

My first impulse is to point you toward Complete Mage's Unseen Seer prestige class.
It makes Rogue/Wizards really shine.

Noedig
2010-02-15, 10:55 PM
Yeah I just sort of realized that this thread is almost 2.2 years old. Apologies.