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Limos
2008-11-28, 12:32 AM
EDIT: Since everyone seems to be against 4e around here I would like to hear what people would do with this in 3.5 instead. While I don't use 3.5 usually I really want to see a good homebrew of these magics.

Hi there, I've been reading this forum for a long time but never went ahead and posted anything. Now I have absolutely zero skill with Homebrew but I really want to add something into a campaign that's going to be starting soon and was hoping people here could help out.

I want to homebrew the Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy magics from the Mistborn Trilogy by Brandon Sanderson.

I'm not really sure how to go about this so I'll just give an overview of the different magics and hopefully you all can tell me how I would translate these into DnD.

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Allomancy

Allomancy is hereditary and broken down into two categories, Mistings which can only burn one allomatic metal and Mistborn which can burn all of them. In allomancy the power is gained by burning a metal that has been ingested. The power gained from burning is constant and can only be boosted a small amount by flaring the metal. The allomatic metals are broken down as follows


Iron - Pulls on nearby source of metal. (If the object is heavier than the person pulling then the user will be pulled toward the object.) Ironpulling only works in straight lines, you can only pull objects directly towards yourself.An Iron Misting is called a Lurcher.

Steel - Pushes on a nearby source of metal. (If the object is heavier than the person pushing then the user will be propelled away from the object.) Steelpushing only works in straight lines. You can only push directly away from yourself.A Steel Misting is called a Coinshot.

Tin - Increases senses. Tin mistings are called Tineyes.

Pewter - Increases physical abilities (strength, speed, stamina, toughness). A pewter misting is called a Thug.

Brass - Soothes (dampens) emotions. A brass misting is called a Soother.

Zinc - Riots (enflames) emotions. A zinc misting is called a Rioter.

Copper - Hides allomatic pulses from detection. A copper misting is called a Smoker.

Bronze - Allows one to hear allomatic pulses. A bronze misting is called a Seeker.


These are the eight base metals of allomancy. These are usually the only kinds of Mistings. It is possible to have mistings of the other metals but they usually aren't found due to rarity or the metal only been used in combinations. The other metals are as follows.


Aluminum - Destroys all other allomatic reserves within the body.

Duralumin - Allows a Mistborn to expend their entire store of whatever metals are currently burning all at once. (ex. One inhumanly strong Steelpush, One unnaturally fast attack due to duralumin enhanced pewter.)

Atium - Allows you to see into other people's futures and enhances the mind so that it can use this new informations. Arguably the most powerful of all the Allomatic metals. It also burns faster than any other metal. Atium mistings are called Seers.

Malatium, Gold, Electurm - These are the other three temporal metals. They allow you to see other people's pasts, your own past, and your own future. They are basically worthless.



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Feruchemy

Feruchemy is unlike allomancy in that it draws power from the user itself, and not from the metals. Metals in this case are used to store attributes which are used later. Also unlike Allomancy a feruchemist is not limited to a constant drain of power. If a pewtermind has enough power to double a feruchemist's strength for 1 hour then he can quadruple his strength for 30 minutes. Or be 8 times as strong for 15 minutes. Also unlike Allomancy the power physically affects the user. (tapping a pewtermind gives you huge muscles). Feruchemists must be in contact with their storage devices to use them.


Iron - Stores physical weight

Steel - Stores physical speed

Tin - Stores sense (one per tinmind only. You cannot store two senses in the same tinmind)

Pewter - Stores physical strength.

Brass - Stores warmth

Zinc - Stores mental speed. (Not intelligence, just how fast you think)

Copper - Stores memories.

Bronze - Stores wakefullness.

Atium - Stores Age

Gold - Stores healing.


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Hemalurgy

Hemalurgy is a process where metal spikes are driven through the victim in order to steal their power. This is invariably fatal as the spikes must be driven through specific points to gain different attributes (usually vital organs). Once a spike of the correct metal has been used to kill the victim it can be driven into the recipient and will give them that power. Strangely the spikes themselves will not adversly affect the recipient. (The most prevelant use of Hemalurgy are the Steel Inquisitors. They have two spikes driven through their eyes, one through their heart and several others in their torso.


Iron - Steals human strength

Steel - Steals Allomantic Physical powers

Tin - Steals human senses

Pewter - Steals Feruchemical Physical powers

Brass - Steals Feruchemical Mental powers

Zinc - Steals human emotional Fortitude.

Copper - Steals human mental Fortitude.

Bronze - Steals Allomantic Mental Powers.

Aluminum - Steals Allomantic Enhancement powers

Atium - Steals Allomantic Temporal powers.


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I know it's a lot of different things to do but I'm no good at Homebrew myself. Even ideas on the basic mechanic for each magic would be great. Any help is appreciated.

The benifits of Hemalurgic spikes stack. I was thinking that these would be easy to translate into enchanted items.

SilentNight
2008-11-28, 12:36 AM
I'd suggest looking here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72870). And yes, that was just to get out of saying I can't. :smalltongue:

Limos
2008-11-28, 12:36 AM
I'd suggest looking here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72870). And yes, that was just to get out of saying I can't. :smalltongue:

Thank you anyway, I will post this there as well.

EDIT: It appears that they say in the original post not to ask for completely new magic systems. This might be a bit too large.

SilentNight
2008-11-28, 12:43 AM
Ah, try shooting off some PM's to the bigger names and see if any of them have free time.

Limos
2008-11-28, 12:45 AM
Ah, try shooting off some PM's to the bigger names and see if any of them have free time.

You think they won't mind? I wouldn't want to impose.

afroakuma
2008-11-28, 12:48 AM
The people here are generally very open-minded and friendly. If you'd like ot direct a request, just phrase it politely, explain concisely what you're looking for (i.e. not the full description) and perhaps direct them to this thread? You should hear back from them one way or the other.

Limos
2008-11-28, 12:52 AM
The people here are generally very open-minded and friendly. If you'd like ot direct a request, just phrase it politely, explain concisely what you're looking for (i.e. not the full description) and perhaps direct them to this thread? You should hear back from them one way or the other.

Wonderful!

Now who would you say I should ask?

blackspeeker
2008-11-28, 12:58 AM
Wonderful!

Now who would you say I should ask?

A good list of people that I can think of would be afroakuma, Zeta Kai, Krimm Blackleaf, Lappy9000(although I know he is pressed working on his campaign setting), and many more, honestly look in the threads on this board for people who have one work you like/would use, and see if they're interested/have the time. To my knowledge the people I listed have pretty full plates, but it never hurts to ask.

SilentNight
2008-11-28, 01:02 AM
Zeta also has a current project. Fax_Celestis recently became active again and you might try Kellus.

Limos
2008-11-28, 01:15 AM
I sent out a round of PMs, with any luck one of them will be interested.

Limos
2008-11-28, 01:26 AM
Afroakuma, I noticed you seem to be active in the request a homebrew thread. You wouldn't happen to have any input would you?

Yakk
2008-11-28, 10:53 AM
Personally, I'd advise throwing out the existing crunch, using the existing fluff as a source of themes, and going from there.

But I find that most people who want "fiction X in a game" consider the crunchy parts to be important.

4e is designed first to be a game, and second to express a simulation-like set of mechanics.

If you wanted to play a game that tries to write a narrative that is like such a work of fiction, a game where characters have units of narrative power (To a greater or lesser degree: Wushu, Risus, Nobalis, Amber, etc) makes more sense.

afroakuma
2008-11-28, 11:40 AM
Ah, I've been caught. :smallwink:

I try to help with any request that I see; unfortunately, I'm not familiar with 4E as a system, and certainly not enough to build a new magic system.

The problem is, most of our more prolific homebrewers are the same way. There are a few who do some really solid 4E work, though.

When I look at the Allomancy list, I see a lot of variatons on wizard spells and rituals. You're probably looking to take the closest equivalents and tinker with them so that they become a class focus, e.g. a Thug would acquire multiple powers that either temporarily increase Str/Dex/Con or exploit that physical supremacy in some violent ways.

Feruchemy looks a lot like 3.5 psionics; unfortunately 4E is currently without such a system. That may be the hardest one to translate directly and is the first point at which I would say you need to throw out the existing magic system.

Hemalurgy looks to be a more dangerous form of magic; however, it may not translate well to standard gameplay because you'll start with a character whose powers are only good against "actual" casters from melee range, and end up with a character who is far more powerful (and pointy) than everyone else, because every caster he kills gives him both XP and additional powers. If you can compensate for that in your game, then all the best to you.

I hope you find some willing homebrewer to take on this challenge. As I said, we're still strongly 3.X here. While I urge you to remain active and enjoy everything this forum has to offer, I would also suggest that you look into checking on a forum that caters more strongly to 4E; Wizards' forums may be able to help.

That said, welcome (officially) to GitP! I hope I can be of more use next time.

Knaight
2008-11-28, 11:43 AM
I could do this in Fudge, or 3.5, but 4e is out due to the power system. That said if you like a relatively simple game go with Fudge, it has one mechanic that makes this work perfectly.

SilentNight
2008-11-28, 12:16 PM
Yeah, as far as I know, the only big-time 4e homebrewer is rtg0922.

Daracaex
2008-11-28, 12:27 PM
I could do this in Fudge, or 3.5, but 4e is out due to the power system. That said if you like a relatively simple game go with Fudge, it has one mechanic that makes this work perfectly.

I agree. I don't think the 4E power system would do allomancy, or feruchemy justice, and hemalurgy doesn't really work on the player side of ANY game since it requires the death of others and gives permanent upgrades to the ones who use it.

In 3.5, on the other hand, I can see allomancy and feruchemy working to a degree.

Fax Celestis
2008-11-28, 12:47 PM
M'fraid I don't know enough about 4e to make a system for you, sorry.

Baron Corm
2008-11-28, 12:54 PM
So, all of these are basically magic items, not spell systems.

For allomancy, grant a constant bonus for ingesting it, with a set duration, basing it off a potion of Bull's Strength or similar.

For Feruchemy, there is no bonus just to have it, but the holder can gain a +1, +2, or +4 bonus (for example) by expending different amounts of charges. There are examples of this type of item in the Magic Item Compendium. Flipping open to a random page (167) gives the example of the Orb of Mental Renewal.

For Hemalurgy, treat it first as a weapon (dagger?), then once it kills something, treat it as any normal constant-bonus item.

This is basically for 3.5 because I don't really know how items work in 4e.

Limos
2008-11-28, 02:22 PM
So, all of these are basically magic items, not spell systems.

For allomancy, grant a constant bonus for ingesting it, with a set duration, basing it off a potion of Bull's Strength or similar.

For Feruchemy, there is no bonus just to have it, but the holder can gain a +1, +2, or +4 bonus (for example) by expending different amounts of charges. There are examples of this type of item in the Magic Item Compendium. Flipping open to a random page (167) gives the example of the Orb of Mental Renewal.

For Hemalurgy, treat it first as a weapon (dagger?), then once it kills something, treat it as any normal constant-bonus item.

This is basically for 3.5 because I don't really know how items work in 4e.


Well it's kind of hard to explain the application of Allomancy in any brevity. For a Mistborn Iron and Steel are the powers you will use the most. In the books the common use of Steel is to fire coins at other people. But they also will drop coins and push on them to launch themselves straight up. Then they can push and pull on various metal sources to, in effect, fly.

Also Hemalurgy wouldn't work as a dagger attack. The place you spike someone has to be precise. The victim is usually tied down to a special table with the recipient direcly below them so that the spike will pass through the victim and directly into the recipient. (This gains the most power as the stolen power decays the longer it is outside a host.)

I would think it would have to be some sort of ritual where you have a victim who is restrained that you then kill to gain the power.

Limos
2008-11-28, 02:27 PM
I agree. I don't think the 4E power system would do allomancy, or feruchemy justice, and hemalurgy doesn't really work on the player side of ANY game since it requires the death of others and gives permanent upgrades to the ones who use it.

In 3.5, on the other hand, I can see allomancy and feruchemy working to a degree.

The weakness of Hemalurgy is that the spikes can be pulled out relatively easy. For the inquisitors there is a lynchpin spike in between their shoulderblades that links the torso spikes to their eye spikes. Pulling it out kills them instantly. Likewise the Kandra (race of amorphous blobs who ingest bodies and use the bones to imitate people) have a spike that grants them sentience, otherwise they would still be carrion beasts. Pulling it out makes them revert to Mistwraiths.

afroakuma
2008-11-28, 02:39 PM
Yeah, in that case you're looking at ritual crafting of magical items that impart extreme penalties to your players if removed.

It's very interesting and flavorful, but I think it wouldn't work in gameplay, unfortunately.

Limos
2008-11-28, 05:52 PM
Yeah, in that case you're looking at ritual crafting of magical items that impart extreme penalties to your players if removed.

It's very interesting and flavorful, but I think it wouldn't work in gameplay, unfortunately.

In the actual books Hemalurgy is only used by the bad guys, Inquisitors, Kandra, Koloss, etc.

In fact getting spiked opens you up to being mind controlled by the BBEG Ruin (a pseudo diety out to destroy the universe).

The only times good guys use hemalurgy is when one of the bad guys spikes them in order to open them up to Ruin.

Limos
2008-11-28, 06:07 PM
As no one wants to do this in 4th edition I've decided to switch to 3.5 so that I can get some input on this.

I'm sure I can convince my players to give it a shot.

afroakuma
2008-11-28, 06:13 PM
It's not that no one wants to, it's that nobody here can. We have very few 4E homebrewers, and installing a new magic system into that particular game is incredibly difficult in any event.

As I said in my PM, in 3.X you'd be looking at spell-like abilities, probably obtained through a feat chain, that develop in number and power of uses over time. You don't really need a magic system, you need a feat system that can be interacted with.

Hemalurgy will be magical items no matter what D&D system it's in.

Meek
2008-11-28, 10:06 PM
I do 4e Homebrew, but I've never done a request of this magnitude. I've also never worked with anybody over a forum really. I'm also doing my first big collaborative RPG project over email and dealing with finals at the University, so while I really empathize with your plight, I'm not in a good position to help now. If within a few weeks perhaps you still need a guy I might be able to help then.

Baron Corm
2008-11-29, 12:22 AM
Well it's kind of hard to explain the application of Allomancy in any brevity. For a Mistborn Iron and Steel are the powers you will use the most. In the books the common use of Steel is to fire coins at other people. But they also will drop coins and push on them to launch themselves straight up. Then they can push and pull on various metal sources to, in effect, fly.

Alright, well see, in D&D, flying is a third-level spell, or a level 5 racial feature, and anyone can buy a bow at level one. That's why I don't think you could make a whole spell-system off of this, or a 20-level class which would use it. Just because I said the mechanics would work the same as a potion doesn't mean it has to be that simple though, I was going to leave the rest to you. For example, ingest the burning metal, and then for a period of time you have a telekinesis-like power (custom fit to however the book deals with it) which works only on metal. Carrying around coins to use them like that would be the player's choice, though in your setting I suppose almost everyone would do it.

If you want to elaborate on other uses for the metals, then maybe it COULD be made into its own magic system, but from what I can see there's not enough.

Limos
2008-11-29, 01:18 AM
Alright, well see, in D&D, flying is a third-level spell, or a level 5 racial feature, and anyone can buy a bow at level one. That's why I don't think you could make a whole spell-system off of this, or a 20-level class which would use it. Just because I said the mechanics would work the same as a potion doesn't mean it has to be that simple though, I was going to leave the rest to you. For example, ingest the burning metal, and then for a period of time you have a telekinesis-like power (custom fit to however the book deals with it) which works only on metal. Carrying around coins to use them like that would be the player's choice, though in your setting I suppose almost everyone would do it.

If you want to elaborate on other uses for the metals, then maybe it COULD be made into its own magic system, but from what I can see there's not enough.


Mmkay, time for metal applications. I'll just rattle off every application I can think of.

Iron - The duty of the Lurcher (Iron misting) is to protect the rest of his crew from Coinshots or Mistborn. They carry large wooden shields and draw enemy coins towards themselves. It is possible to pull on more than one source simultaneously. A common tactic is to pull strongly on multiple anchors in front of you and one large object behind you in order to launch the single object at the opponents. Also common is to pull items behind opponents in order to attack them from behind.

While burning Iron lines visible only to the burner appear that lead to any nearby sources of metal. As such they can pull on metal objects they cannot see, it can also be used to detect metal. Only metal that pierces the skin or is inside the body cannot be pulled on. Having a Hemalurgic spike to enhance Iron overcomes this limitation.

Steel - A Coinshot is usually more useful than a Lurcher. They fire coins at opposing allomancers in the intent to maim or kill. They can deflect enemy fire by pushing against it in midair but this is less predictable than a Lurcher. Mistborn use this power to jump from coin to coin and fly. It is possible to push on more than one object at a time. By pushing on something behind you and then on the opponent's weapon or armor you can transfer the full weight of the anchor into your push.

While burning Steel lines visible only to the burner appear that lead to any nearby sources of metal. As such they can push on metal objects they cannot see, it can also be used to detect metal. Only metal that pierces the skin or is inside the body cannot be pushedon. Having a Hemalurgic spike to enhance Steel overcomes this limitation.

At one point metal dust was pushed along the ground to gather up dust and debris and then pushed outward to create a dust storm. The Lord Ruler also nearly killed the main character of the series by pushing the metals in her stomach.

NOTE: Steel Inquisitors use the lines from Iron and Steel to see. The spikes in their eyes mean they are blind, but since they have enhanced Iron and Steel they are capable of detecting the trace metals in just about everything. The lines from these trace metals outline the world for the Inquisitors. They are commonly known to find people in pitch black darkness by looking for the trace metals in their bodies. Metal dust thrown in the air can blind them temporarily.


Tin - A tineye is a scout or a spy. Burning tin for an extended amount of time can twist the body. People who have flared tin for too long become Tin Savants. A tin savant has impossibly fine senses, being able to hear heartbeats through 3 foot thick stone walls and hear the wind from an arrow's passage. Once unlocked the power of a savant cannot be brought down to natural levels, while burning tin all of their senses will be at this level. If they extinguish their tin a savant becomes numb from the contrast with their more powerful senses.

Pewter - Thugs are the brute force of their crew. They far outmatch any natural strength and can break unenhanced bones with ease. While burning pewter a Thug can ignore fatigue entirely. It is possible to force the body to perform at peak efficiency for days on end, this process is called Pewter Dragging. While Pewter Dragging a Thug or Mistborn can run, fight, or otherwise make use of their enhanced body as if well rested. Deadly wounds can be shrugged off and will heal faster as long as the pewter remains burning. Should a Thug extinguish their pewter while still exhausted or wounded the shock could kill them. It is possible to become a pewter savant but it is more dangerous than becoming a Tin savant as any slip could cause the accumulated fatigue to kill them. A pewter savant is inhumanly strong, the phrase "World made of paper" comes to mind.

Brass - Soothers are not normally part of a fighting crew. They have the power to damped certain emotions over others and allow weaker emotions to take over. In battle they are used to maintain morale by soothing away fear, apprehension, terror, horror, or even pain. A duralumin fueled soothing is capable of breaking the mental barrier in Koloss or Kandra and gives the Soother complete control of them. When controlling Koloss breaking through to a single beast takes control of the entire group.

Zinc - Rioters are also not fighting mistings. They also can selectively riot emotions. In battle they are used to break the morale of opposing forces by rioting their feelings of terror. They are also used for recruitment by rioting feelings of patriotism, passion, or bloodlust.

Copper - Smokers are basically used only for hiding other mistings. In the books the smokers are usually in demand in the Skaa underground to hide skaa mistings from the Canton of Inquisition. Should they be detected they would all be hunted down by Steel Inquisitors.

Bronze - Seekers are not in demand by the Skaa underground, but highly sought after by the Canton of Inquisition for ferreting out Skaa mistings. With bronze it is possible to identify which metal is being burned, the direction the pulses are coming from, and if they are within sight, who is burning it. Duralumin fueled seekings can even detect which emotions a Soother or Rioter is attempting to affect.

Atium - Atium is mostly used by Mistborn. While in effect the mistborn see ghostly images, called Atium Shadows, that show what someone is going to do in a few seconds. It also enhances the mind so that you can use this information. If someone else is burning Atium they can see what you are going to do, which changes what they are goig to do. You have the same effect. This causes a mirror effect so that both atium burners explode with confusing atium shadows and render one another's atium useless.

Electrum can also be used to defeat Atium as it allows you to see your own future, which changes what you will do and causes multiple atium shadows for the person burning atium. This is the only real purpose of Electrum.

Baron Corm
2008-11-29, 11:35 AM
How rare are these metals? How are hard they to ingest and how does the mistborn survive this process? Would it be fair to say that the player is assumed to always have them on his person, like spell components? Or do you want finding/buying them to be part of the game?

Are there non-mistborn or misting fighting people in these books? Do you want other classes than just a mistborn? I see that it's hereditary, but the class would be training your natural prowess, similar to a sorcerer. Mistings would just be NPC classes. Or do Lurchers/Coinshots/etc focus so much on their particular metal that they become stronger than the generalized mistborn?

Limos
2008-11-29, 01:36 PM
How rare are these metals? How are hard they to ingest and how does the mistborn survive this process? Would it be fair to say that the player is assumed to always have them on his person, like spell components? Or do you want finding/buying them to be part of the game?

Are there non-mistborn or misting fighting people in these books? Do you want other classes than just a mistborn? I see that it's hereditary, but the class would be training your natural prowess, similar to a sorcerer. Mistings would just be NPC classes. Or do Lurchers/Coinshots/etc focus so much on their particular metal that they become stronger than the generalized mistborn?

The eight base metals are very common so they would be like spell components, except I would say that you have a set amount for every encounter. Running out of the metal needs to be taken into account. Especially with Duralumin, since the downside of using it is that it burns away all of the metal you use.

NOTE: They make special mention that the different alloys are very specific percentages, burning an incorrect percentage can make the mistborn or misting sick. So they have special shops that sell the metals. Burning a metal that isn't actually an Allomatic metal is fatal.

The only exception to this is Atium. Atium is very rare because it only is mined in one place, The Pits of Hathsin, and it's distribution is controlled by the government. One bead is worth a fortune but will only last for around 2 minutes. That one would probably be an item you have to buy.

The metals are usually ingested in the form of metal flakes in an alchohol solution. There are shops in the cities whose only purpose is to provide these. Atium comes in the form of small metal beads.

Also you have to swallow the metals, but until you do they can be pushed or pulled off of you by an allomancer. Atium only lasts a few hours in the stomach before it is ruined so once you swallow it you have to use it.

As a rule a Misting will be more skilled in the use of their metal than a Mistborn. At higher levels a Mistborn will always overpower a Misting, but they're not slouches either.

There is a group of people called Hazekillers in the books specifically trained to fight allomancers. They use heavy wooden shields and dueling canes. They have no allomancy themselves but usually 6 hazekillers of normal skill can fight 1 highly skilled Mistborn. A normal hazekiller could slaughter any normal misting. I would think that Hazekillers would get some kind of bonus against allomancers.

Feruchemists can also stand up to Allomancers. The only one we really get to see fight in the books is Sazed. He saves up every attribute and taps them all at once, he then pretty much walks all over a Steel Inquisitor who was the equivalent of a very very powerful Mistborn. Once the same Steel Inquisitor gets more spikes to have feruchemical powers Sazed isn't so lucky.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-29, 02:00 PM
An RPG is being made based on that series, at least according to the authors website.

I've thought about homebrewing a D&D system for it but it wouldn't work well for various reasons. First off a person burning pewter is effectivily under about 5 ToB stances, has all of their physical attributes increased about 20 points (or more), is effectively continually hasted, and has a few other things. All of that is available from the first time they gain the ability to burn pewter.

A tin savant is similarly effected and would be amazingly powerful.

And steel and iron allow for some very nasty things.

Now a mistborn who gains the ability to use all of these abilities in combination? Imagine Vin with the abilities of a Tin Savant on top of it.

And Feruchemy is even more powerful. Remember, Sazed wasn't ever a warrior and he never really made an effort to store up the physical abilities in quantity. But a warrior with access to feruchemy? Remember when Sazed ran out of weight? Imagine a person who spent every day weighing half as much as normal. Or strength. In D&D terms imagine a person with 18 base strength who spends every day with 10 strength and puts the other 8 points per day into their metals. When he goes into combat he could be running around with 98 strength for a day.

afroakuma
2008-11-29, 02:02 PM
Since Tippy has some familiarity with the series, his word is therefore better than mine.

Novel series are usually tougher to DM in any event. You may find you have more fun trying a different setting.

Shadow_Elf
2008-11-29, 02:08 PM
Yes, you might like to try a different setting. Perhaps you'd be interested in this new setting, which will be 3.Xe and 4e compatible.
Take a look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96183) [/blatant self advertising]

afroakuma
2008-11-29, 02:15 PM
Blatant advertising of other 'selves, as well.

Knaight
2008-11-29, 02:16 PM
Honestly the easiest way to do this would be the psionics system, with power points, which come from the metals, other metals with points determined by size for "storing" attributes etc.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-29, 02:18 PM
Since Tippy has some familiarity with the series, his word is therefore better than mine.

Novel series are usually tougher to DM in any event. You may find you have more fun trying a different setting.

Oh, I think it would be a wickedly awesome fun setting to play in. But D&D just can't handle it. In fact I don't think any level based system can really handle it because powers don't really increase over time. Either you have them or you don't. Sure you might get more skilled in using a power but not massively so.

And it wouldn't work with the D&D magic system at all. I'm serious in saying that a prepared feruchemist can nova and take down an entire army.

Someone who has an 11 in str, dex, and con normally and has been investing 1 point of strength, dex, and con per day for a year can nova and spend 1 day with 376 Strength, Dex, and Con. That's 183 extra hit points per HD. 183 points of damage per hit and 183 additional AB. That's an initiative score of 184 minimum and an AC when naked of 193. And if he spends a day under the effects of a slow spell then he can also spend that day under the effects of Haste. Throw in the weight manipulation and a guy who normally weighs 180 pounds but spends a year at 90 pounds can weigh 16.45 tons for the day. Which makes him effectively a gargantuan creature. And he can change his weight at will from nothing all the way up to the max.

And that's just novaing for a day. He could spend an hour with all of those multiplied by a factor of 24 or a miniute with them multiplied by 1,440 or a round with them multiplied by 86,400. That's a strength of 31,536,011 for 1 round.

Shadow_Elf
2008-11-29, 02:23 PM
Blatant advertising of other 'selves, as well.

I know. I wasn't sure how to word that. Blatant Group Advertising? Blatant Project Advertising? Blatant Product Advertising?
In any case, my apologies.

Limos
2008-11-29, 02:28 PM
That's a strength of 31,536,011 for 1 round.

OMG, that's amazing.

I think the trick to DMing it would be to throw challenges at them constantly. Don't give the Feruchemist a chance to store up like that, if he gets too strong have the allomancers steal his metalminds in his sleep.

I think it's unlikely that I would ever give them a chance to store up attributes for a full year before sending an enemy their way.

Of course Steel Inquisitors can also have Feruchemical ability so they could go nova on one another and balance out.

For the pewter thing you have to take into account that everyone they fight is probably going to have pewter as well. The PCs would also usually be outnumbered. Two thugs, a Coinshot and a Lurcher for every Mistborn the PCs have. Maybe a squad of Hazekillers. Or enemy Mistborns, or Inquisitors even.

Limos
2008-11-29, 02:32 PM
Theres a thought. In order to store up as much of the attributes as Tippy mentioned the Feruchemist would have to be wearing enough metal to constitute plate mail. And he would have to be wearing it while weakened. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to use it all in one round.

If he stores the attributes in different metalminds then he'll have to keep switching his equipment in order to tap new sources.

And then of course he would be glaringly obvious as a Feruchemist and the Canton of Inquisition would send half a dozen Inquisitors to tear him limb from limb.

EDIT: I would also include built in limits to how high the boost can go from Feruchemy. At some point the muscles would become so large that the Feruchemist would be unable to move. Increasing sight changes how the eye is shaped, so boosting too much might make them explode.

Some boosts would cancel one another out, too heavy and his own limbs require additional strength to move, and he would have to tap speed to just move normally.

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-29, 02:38 PM
Yes, it's high. But an 18 Strength character who spends every free round at 10 Strength gains a round later at 26 Strength. And well eating breakfast takes say 30 miniutes. For that 30 miniutes the 18 Str guy is at 8 Str. Giving him 300 rounds at 28 strength or 1 round at 328 Strength. And a guy with 18 Strength can spend most of his time at 14 Strength and still be better than average and for every miniute like this he gains 1 round of 48 strength.

And they can do the same thing for all attributes. Need to convince the crowd to stand and fight? That's what the 1 miniute of 410 Con gets you. Need to solve a puzzle? That's what the 1 round of 610 Int gets you.

Need to move faster? Well spend a day in bed reading and with a movement speed of 0 and you gain a day of moving at 60 feet. Or a round of moving at 432,000 feet. x4 if you choose to run. That's 81 miles traveled in a round, 327 if you run.

Limos
2008-11-29, 03:13 PM
Yes, it's high. But an 18 Strength character who spends every free round at 10 Strength gains a round later at 26 Strength. And well eating breakfast takes say 30 miniutes. For that 30 miniutes the 18 Str guy is at 8 Str. Giving him 300 rounds at 28 strength or 1 round at 328 Strength. And a guy with 18 Strength can spend most of his time at 14 Strength and still be better than average and for every miniute like this he gains 1 round of 48 strength.

And they can do the same thing for all attributes. Need to convince the crowd to stand and fight? That's what the 1 miniute of 410 Con gets you. Need to solve a puzzle? That's what the 1 round of 610 Int gets you.

Need to move faster? Well spend a day in bed reading and with a movement speed of 0 and you gain a day of moving at 60 feet. Or a round of moving at 432,000 feet. x4 if you choose to run. That's 81 miles traveled in a round, 327 if you run.

I think we would have to make the system give diminishing returns the higher you go. The easy doubling from the books is too unbalanced.

Tapping 1 charge gives him 1 round at his standard boost.

But using double gives him 1.5 times his boost.

and using quadruple gives him 2 times his boost.

eight times gives 2.5

16 times gives 3

32 times gives 3.5

and so on and so forth.

This way someone with a huge store could still be a lot stronger. But the decreasing returns means they can't go nova on you. So say the base boost for pewter is 8 points. He can burn 1 round charge to gain one round of +8 strength, or he can burn 2 charges to gain one round at +12 strength, or he can burn 4 charges to get +16 strength, or 8 charges to get +20 strength, or 16 to get +24 strength, or 32 to get +28 strength.

He can add one charge by spending a round with -8 strength, or he can add half a charge per round by having -4 strength.

I know that this is much more steep than in the books but it would help to balance it against the other magics.

And if he is facing Allomancers then a lurcher or a coinshot can push or pull his metalminds off of him and instantly rob him of his bonuses. Even if he swallowed them or they pierced the skin then an Inquisitor or the Lord Ruler could still take them away.

Baron Corm
2008-11-29, 05:22 PM
I would consider it an advantage that I haven't read the books. It makes it easier to throw out some of what the books say and impart a measure of balance. The various metal powers may not increase with practice, but in DND they have to. One thing I need more elaboration on is hazekiller abilities. How do they kill allomancers, and how do they deal with Pewter burners physically? Also note that these are all just basic things up for your approval so tear apart and change as you want.


Metal Burnings

Metals last for 12 hours once you begin burning them, except for Atium which lasts for 3 hours. Burning and ingesting a metal is a move action.

Iron - Burning Iron grants the ability to pull metal towards yourself. Using this ability allows you to deflect one die of damage worth of coins per level as a standard action. If you are not holding a shield, you take all of the damage. However, if you are holding a shield, the pusher makes a new attack roll against you, with a penalty equal to your total attack bonus. If it fails, the damage is negated, but if it doesn't, you still take all of the damage.

You may also launch a metal object from behind you or behind the target creature to deal 1d4 damage per 2 levels. This takes a standard action as well and requires a ranged attack roll.

While burning Iron lines visible only to the burner appear that lead to any nearby sources of metal. As such they can pull on metal objects they cannot see, it can also be used to detect metal. Only metal that pierces the skin or is inside the body cannot be pulled on. Having a Hemalurgic spike to enhance Iron overcomes this limitation.

Steel - Burning Steel grants the ability to push metal away from you. You can, as a standard action, push a coin or number of coins rapidly towards a creature to deal 1d6 damage per level. This requires a ranged attack roll. You can also knock away coins that other mistborn are shooting equal to one die of damage per 2 levels as a standard action.

You can push on metal below you to effectively fly at a speed of 5 feet per two levels. This takes a move action. By using this aspect of Steel to propel yourself forwards, and then pushing coins in the same direction and the same round, your momentum is added to your coinpushing, increasing the damage die to d8s.

Instead of pushing coins, if you push a handful of metal dust, you may create a metal cloud. This cloud has a radius of 5 feet per four levels and an equal height. It lasts for 5 rounds. It effectively blinds all creatures within it for the duration.

While burning Steel lines visible only to the burner appear that lead to any nearby sources of metal. As such they can push on metal objects they cannot see, it can also be used to detect metal. Only metal that pierces the skin or is inside the body cannot be pushedon. Having a Hemalurgic spike to enhance Steel overcomes this limitation.

Tin - Burning Tin grants a bonus equal to 1 per class level on all sense-related skill checks. This includes Spot and Listen checks, as well as certain Survival checks with the scent ability. Burning Tin also grants blindsight out to 5 feet per 2 class levels and blindsense out to 5 feet per class level. The blindsight and blindsense can only be negated if every other sense is negated.

Pewter - Burning Pewter grants you a bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution equal to 2 per level. It also grants you fast healing equal to 1 per level and immunity to nonlethal damage and fatigue. However, keep track of the nonlethal damage you take, as it is all dealt to you at once when the Pewter burns up, as lethal damage. This includes nonlethal damage from forced marches and such. If you would have become fatigued while you were burning Pewter, you become fatigued after it burns up.

Brass - Burning brass allows you to grant bonuses to others. You may grant your bonuses to one creature per 3 levels (minimum 1) at any given time. You grant these creatures a +1 morale bonus per 3 levels (minimum 1) to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saves against fear or pain effects.

A duralumin fueled soothing is capable of breaking the mental barrier in Koloss or Kandra and gives the Soother complete control of them. When controlling Koloss breaking through to a single beast takes control of the entire group. [No idea what this means.]

Zinc - Burning Zinc allows you to cause fear or pain in others. You may affect up to one creature per 3 levels (minimum 1) at any given time. You may cause the creatures to be shaken, except that the shaken penalties are equal to -1 per 3 levels (minimum 1).

By inflaming a creature's feelings of fury you can also entice him to combat. The creature's Diplomacy DC with regards to entering combat is reduced by 1 per 3 levels. If the creature is in combat, his zealousness grants him a +1 morale bonus per 3 levels to attack and damage. This does not stack with bonuses gained from Brass.

Copper - Burning Copper allows you to hide allomantic pulses from detection. You make an opposed class level check against the Bronze burner attempting to detect the pulses you are hiding.

Bronze - Burning Bronze lets you detect allomantic pulses. With bronze it is possible to identify which metal is being burned, the direction the pulses are coming from, and if they are within sight, who is burning it. Duralumin fueled seekings can even detect which emotions a Soother or Rioter is attempting to affect. If the pulses are being hidden, you make an opposed class level check against the Copper burner attempting to hide the pulses you are attempting to detect.

Atium - Burning Atium lets you see the future a few seconds in advance. This grants you a +1 circumstance bonus per two class levels on all d20 rolls. It also negates this bonus for rolls concerning you when facing other Atium users. Atium is rare, expensive, and short-lived, and therefore not automatically available to any mistborn or misting.

Electrum - Burning Electrum allows you to see your own future. Consult your DM. Burning Electrum also negates an Atium burner's bonus against rolls concerning you.

Mistborn
Mistborn
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Mistborn
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|
3rd|+2|+1|+1|+3|
4th|+3|+1|+1|+4|
5th|+3|+1|+1|+4|
6th|+4|+2|+2|+5|
7th|+5|+2|+2|+5|
8th|+6/+1|+2|+2|+6|
9th|+6/+1|+3|+3|+6|
10th|+7/+2|+3|+3|+7|
11th|+8/+3|+3|+3|+7|
12th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|
13th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|
14th|+10/+5|+4|+4|+9|
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+9|
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11|
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|[/table]

Hit Die: d6
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies

IDK

Mistborn

A mistborn may make use of any allomantic metal. They are assumed to have X (3?) vials of each type of metal until they reach a place where they can resupply.

Misting
Misting
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|Misting
2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|
3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3|
4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|
5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|
6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|
7th|+5|+2|+5|+5|
8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+6|
9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+6|
10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+7|
11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+7|
12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|
13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|
14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+9|
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+9|
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+11|
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+11|
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+12|[/table]

Hit Die: d8
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies

IDK

Misting

A misting may only make use of one allomantic metal, chosen at character creation. However, all numerical effects of that metal are increased by 50% if it is favorable to the misting. Mistings are assumed to have X (10?) vials of their particular type of metal until they reach a place where they can resupply.

Hazekiller
Hazekiller
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Hazekiller
2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3|
3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3|
4th|+4|+4|+4|+4|
5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|
6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|
7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5|
8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6|
9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|
10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7|
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7|
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8|
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8|
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9|
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10|
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11|
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11|
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies

IDK

Hazekiller

Requires elaboration

Baron Corm
2008-11-29, 06:15 PM
EDIT: I would also include built in limits to how high the boost can go from Feruchemy. At some point the muscles would become so large that the Feruchemist would be unable to move. Increasing sight changes how the eye is shaped, so boosting too much might make them explode.

Some boosts would cancel one another out, too heavy and his own limbs require additional strength to move, and he would have to tap speed to just move normally.

I would agree with this. Just put a limit on how much you can double it. I would stop it at 8x at the highest, possibly 4x. But we can work that out once we have allomancy set up.

Limos
2008-11-29, 06:56 PM
I would consider it an advantage that I haven't read the books. It makes it easier to throw out some of what the books say and impart a measure of balance. The various metal powers may not increase with practice, but in DND they have to. One thing I need more elaboration on is hazekiller abilities. How do they kill allomancers, and how do they deal with Pewter burners physically? Also note that these are all just basic things up for your approval so tear apart and change as you want.


Metal Burnings

Metals last for 12 hours once you begin burning them, except for Atium which lasts for 3 hours. Burning and ingesting a metal is a move action.

Iron - Burning Iron grants the ability to pull metal towards yourself. Using this ability allows you to deflect one die of damage worth of coins per level as a standard action. If you are not holding a shield, you take all of the damage. However, if you are holding a shield, the pusher makes a new attack roll against you, with a penalty equal to your total attack bonus. If it fails, the damage is negated, but if it doesn't, you still take all of the damage.

You may also launch a metal object from behind you or behind the target creature to deal 1d4 damage per 2 levels. This takes a standard action as well and requires a ranged attack roll.

While burning Iron lines visible only to the burner appear that lead to any nearby sources of metal. As such they can pull on metal objects they cannot see, it can also be used to detect metal. Only metal that pierces the skin or is inside the body cannot be pulled on. Having a Hemalurgic spike to enhance Iron overcomes this limitation.

Steel - Burning Steel grants the ability to push metal away from you. You can, as a standard action, push a coin or number of coins rapidly towards a creature to deal 1d6 damage per level. This requires a ranged attack roll. You can also knock away coins that other mistborn are shooting equal to one die of damage per 2 levels as a standard action.

You can push on metal below you to effectively fly at a speed of 5 feet per two levels. This takes a move action. By using this aspect of Steel to propel yourself forwards, and then pushing coins in the same direction and the same round, your momentum is added to your coinpushing, increasing the damage die to d8s.

Instead of pushing coins, if you push a handful of metal dust, you may create a metal cloud. This cloud has a radius of 5 feet per four levels and an equal height. It lasts for 5 rounds. It effectively blinds all creatures within it for the duration.

While burning Steel lines visible only to the burner appear that lead to any nearby sources of metal. As such they can push on metal objects they cannot see, it can also be used to detect metal. Only metal that pierces the skin or is inside the body cannot be pushedon. Having a Hemalurgic spike to enhance Steel overcomes this limitation.

Tin - Burning Tin grants a bonus equal to 1 per class level on all sense-related skill checks. This includes Spot and Listen checks, as well as certain Survival checks with the scent ability. Burning Tin also grants blindsight out to 5 feet per 2 class levels and blindsense out to 5 feet per class level. The blindsight and blindsense can only be negated if every other sense is negated.

Pewter - Burning Pewter grants you a bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution equal to 2 per level. It also grants you fast healing equal to 1 per level and immunity to nonlethal damage and fatigue. However, keep track of the nonlethal damage you take, as it is all dealt to you at once when the Pewter burns up, as lethal damage. This includes nonlethal damage from forced marches and such. If you would have become fatigued while you were burning Pewter, you become fatigued after it burns up.

Brass - Burning brass allows you to grant bonuses to others. You may grant your bonuses to one creature per 3 levels (minimum 1) at any given time. You grant these creatures a +1 morale bonus per 3 levels (minimum 1) to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saves against fear or pain effects.

A duralumin fueled soothing is capable of breaking the mental barrier in Koloss or Kandra and gives the Soother complete control of them. When controlling Koloss breaking through to a single beast takes control of the entire group. [No idea what this means.]

Zinc - Burning Zinc allows you to cause fear or pain in others. You may affect up to one creature per 3 levels (minimum 1) at any given time. You may cause the creatures to be shaken, except that the shaken penalties are equal to -1 per 3 levels (minimum 1).

By inflaming a creature's feelings of fury you can also entice him to combat. The creature's Diplomacy DC with regards to entering combat is reduced by 1 per 3 levels. If the creature is in combat, his zealousness grants him a +1 morale bonus per 3 levels to attack and damage. This does not stack with bonuses gained from Brass.

Copper - Burning Copper allows you to hide allomantic pulses from detection. You make an opposed class level check against the Bronze burner attempting to detect the pulses you are hiding.

Bronze - Burning Bronze lets you detect allomantic pulses. With bronze it is possible to identify which metal is being burned, the direction the pulses are coming from, and if they are within sight, who is burning it. Duralumin fueled seekings can even detect which emotions a Soother or Rioter is attempting to affect. If the pulses are being hidden, you make an opposed class level check against the Copper burner attempting to hide the pulses you are attempting to detect.

Atium - Burning Atium lets you see the future a few seconds in advance. This grants you a +1 circumstance bonus per two class levels on all d20 rolls. It also negates this bonus for rolls concerning you when facing other Atium users. Atium is rare, expensive, and short-lived, and therefore not automatically available to any mistborn or misting.

Electrum - Burning Electrum allows you to see your own future. Consult your DM. Burning Electrum also negates an Atium burner's bonus against rolls concerning you.

Mistborn
Mistborn
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Mistborn
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|
3rd|+2|+1|+1|+3|
4th|+3|+1|+1|+4|
5th|+3|+1|+1|+4|
6th|+4|+2|+2|+5|
7th|+5|+2|+2|+5|
8th|+6/+1|+2|+2|+6|
9th|+6/+1|+3|+3|+6|
10th|+7/+2|+3|+3|+7|
11th|+8/+3|+3|+3|+7|
12th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|
13th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|
14th|+10/+5|+4|+4|+9|
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+9|
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11|
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|[/table]

Hit Die: d6
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies

IDK

Mistborn

A mistborn may make use of any allomantic metal. They are assumed to have X (3?) vials of each type of metal until they reach a place where they can resupply.

Misting
Misting
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|Misting
2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|
3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3|
4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|
5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|
6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|
7th|+5|+2|+5|+5|
8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+6|
9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+6|
10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+7|
11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+7|
12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|
13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|
14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+9|
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+9|
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+11|
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+11|
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+12|[/table]

Hit Die: d8
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies

IDK

Misting

A misting may only make use of one allomantic metal, chosen at character creation. However, all numerical effects of that metal are increased by 50% if it is favorable to the misting. Mistings are assumed to have X (10?) vials of their particular type of metal until they reach a place where they can resupply.

Hazekiller
Hazekiller
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Hazekiller
2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3|
3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3|
4th|+4|+4|+4|+4|
5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|
6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|
7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5|
8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6|
9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|
10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7|
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7|
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8|
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8|
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9|
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10|
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11|
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11|
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies

IDK

Hazekiller

Requires elaboration

Ok elaboration time.

Hazekiller is just the name of the class, not a special ability. Hazekillers have no metal anywhere on their bodies and are trained to anticipate the attack patterns of allomancers (I think this would be like a favored enemy bonus)

They use dueling canes, which are made of wood with sharpened tips. They may also carry soundsticks (two hollow wooden rods that make a loud noise when struck together), smacking a soundstick is usually enough to temprarily deafen or daze someone burning Tin. Pewter burners have to be buried by sheer weight of numbers. As allomancers are very rare it is easier to train and equip a squad of Hazekillers than to field a squad of Allomancers.

While Thugs are tougher than other people they are just as prone to puncture wounds. Stabbing a vital organ is just as fatal to a thug as a normal person.


I was thinking that the classes would be more focused on Tricks than increasing the powers. Somewhat like the Halfling Rock skipping champion class in the gaming section of this site.

Skill with a metal counts for far more than just being able to burn the metal. Even pewter requires skill to use effectively.

NOTE: The Koloss and Kandra are two races created by the Lord Ruler. The Koloss are large bestial creatures used as warriors. Soothers can take control of the Koloss and bend them to their will. Kandra are amorphous blobs of sinew that devour corpses and then imitate the person they just consumed. They are spies, but also share the Koloss' weakeness to soothing.

EDIT: One more thing, it require epic level Bronze skill to break through a coppercloud. Only three people ever accomplish this in the books. The first is some unnamed Inquisitor. I assume that other inquisitors can accomplish this as well. The inquisitor of course was boosted by a hemalurgic spike. The second was Vin, and she too had a Hemalurgic spike. The third is the Lord Ruler, who is basically a demigod and was both an Allomancer, a Feruchemist, and had Hemalurgy.

Limos
2008-11-29, 07:10 PM
As I said in the other post I think the allomancy classes should be focused on Tricks. I'm not good at the crunch part so I'll just give the fluff of what it should accomplish.

Iron


Lurcher's grasp - As long as it is not a sneak attack you can negate any coin attacks within 30 ft. How many times you can do this would depend on some kind of level. You would have to declare this on your turn and it would stay in effect until your next turn or until you are attacked direcly.

Leap - Upon being attacked, as long as it is not a sneak attack or an attack of opportunity, you may expend iron to move 10ft toward any source of metal within 30 ft, you fall prone. This negates the attack that triggered the effect. This does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Disarm - As a sneak attack you may pull on any metal weapon within 30ft that is not drawn and it is pulled off of the target. If it is drawn you may make a disarm check to pull it away from the target.

Stagger - You may pull on any target wearing metal armor or currently holding a metal object within 30ft and attempt a trip check. If you suceed they fall prone.


There are some I thought of for a Lurcher. I was thinking of making a list of tricks for each misting, and then a mistborn would get to choose a certain number of tricks each level. So a misting would get all of the tricks for his metal while a Mistborn would only get some tricks from each metal.

This would parallel how Mistings are more skilled in their metal than mistborn but mistborn are more versatile overall.

Limos
2008-11-29, 07:23 PM
Here is something I can actually mention.

Mistborn would have proficiency with all simple weapons except bows. But no armor proficiencies. They usually just wear clothing. They don't use shields ever.

Lurchers would have proficiency with Shields, but not weapons or armor.

Thugs would have all simple weapons except bows, but not shields or armor.

The other mistings don't have any natural proficiencies with anything.

Hazekillers would get proficiency with all simple and martial weapons and shields.

NOTE: I'm not really sure if that would be right for the proficiencies. Mistborn usually use shortswords or daggers made of obsidian. For range they have coins. In full battle they have shown to be proficient with swords, dueling canes, staves, greatswords, all manner of improvised weapons and the like. The only weapon no mistborn or misting has ever used in the book was a bow.

Prometheus
2008-11-29, 11:02 PM
First of all, I love the series and have thought a lot about how to do it.

I agree with Tippy, D&D just isn't the best system for it. What you really want to do is to be able to break up a battle into increments that are much smaller and sophisticated than the standard 6 seconds. More than that, D&D doesn't have any infrastructure built for the system, and what it does have seems not to match up right. Therefore it needs it's own system (which apparently is already underway?)

What a system would need, is to separate each power into techniques (or tricks like you have identified) with some parameters for finesse, strength, experience, and natural ability required and used in each technique. It would need to hone in on moments which are critical, and leap over spans of time that are not critical. Here's some techniques off the top of my head:
Vin's Horseshoe Trick
Zane's Swallowing coin Trick
Zane's ability to rotate with Steal/Iron
Vin's anti-atium trick
Copper-cloud piercing
Flying with coins
Pewter-dragging
Lurching coins into a shield
Coinshoting
Deflecting coinshots
Mass emotion control
Undetected emotion control
Tin-enhanced combat
Pulling/Pushing pierced metal
Drawing in the mists

Emperor Tippy
2008-11-29, 11:04 PM
First of all, I love the series and have thought a lot about how to do it.

I agree with Tippy, D&D just isn't the best system for it. What you really want to do is to be able to break up a battle into increments that are much smaller and sophisticated than the standard 6 seconds. More than that, D&D doesn't have any infrastructure built for the system, and what it does have seems not to match up right. Therefore it needs it's own system (which apparently is already underway?)

What a system would need, is to separate each power into techniques (or tricks like you have identified) with some parameters for finesse, strength, experience, and natural ability required and used in each technique. It would need to hone in on moments which are critical, and leap over spans of time that are not critical. Here's some techniques off the top of my head:
Vin's Horseshoe Trick
Zane's Swallowing coin Trick
Zane's ability to rotate with Steal/Iron
Vin's anti-atium trick
Copper-cloud piercing
Flying with coins
Pewter-dragging
Lurching coins into a shield
Coinshoting
Deflecting coinshots
Mass emotion control
Undetected emotion control
Tin-enhanced combat
Pulling/Pushing pierced metal
Drawing in the mists
I take it you haven't read the last book. You don't want to allow that until what in D&D would be post epic.

Limos
2008-11-29, 11:11 PM
Prometheus, most of the tricks you said either have no combat value or are hopelessly broken.

Pulling on pierced metal would be epic level allomancy.

Drawing on the mists?!?!? That is just ridiculous. You haven't read the last book have you? Otherwise you would know how hopelessly broken that would be.

Prometheus
2008-11-29, 11:30 PM
(Spoilers ahoy, someone needs to say it)

Well I have, and I guess that's what I get for dropping things off the top of my head, lol. The point of including things like pulling on pierced metals and cloud-piercing would be to give a sense of where duraluminum, hemalurgy, and savant-hood come in.

Drawing in the mists would probably be more RP than a character ability, but depending on when in the chronology (and how you set up the cosmology) I imagine that Preservation and Ruin would be able to give mortals aid in much smaller scopes than those presented in the book.

Since control of supply is a crucial for some metals (and could be for others in the right circumstances), the estates of noblemen would be important. There are a couple of non-magic skills presented, such as haze-killing, horse-riding, stone arrow archery, and training against koloss which might be helpful additions to characters. Finally, you could keep the knowledge about special metals and hemalurgy restricted unless a technique is chosen to know it. (Gunpowder was alluded to...)

You can see I am struggling somewhat with the character building system and power level system. Would all PCs be Mistborns, all Mistings, or would it be possible to have a balanced game with a mix thereof. And how would NPCs be set up with different power levels? What about a noblemen who has control over an army or a weaker Mistings? What about a thieving gang who is has been unknowingly been infected by hemalurgy and ruin? A well-connected, secret keeping obligator?

Needless to say, lots of questions in my mind - for someone who has thought a lot about it before. That's not to say there isn't a smart way it should be done, just that it gets complicated.

Limos
2008-11-29, 11:42 PM
Personally I would have Atium be a special item only found in loot. Whether it's off the bodies of dead Mistborn or in the vault of a noble house.

All the other metals are plentiful enough that you would get an encounter supply that is replensished everytime you are out of the current mission.

It would be assumed that characters don't know about Feruchemy or Hemalurgy unless they discover it ingame. Only if one of the players is a Feruchemist would they be told about it. And no one is allowed to use Hemalurgy as a class. Hemalurgy is more of a prestige class really. And only then if you join the Canton of Inquisition and become an Inquisitor. (Like Marsh)

But drawing on the Mists would be a total RP side element. It would have no crunch or rules. Once you can draw on the mist you are basically a divinity.

Prometheus
2008-11-30, 12:14 AM
Well it looks like you figured out where you stand on the questions I raised.

(For the record, I was referring to the first books drawing upon the mists rather than the third book's)

Limos
2008-11-30, 12:45 AM
Well it looks like you figured out where you stand on the questions I raised.

(For the record, I was referring to the first books drawing upon the mists rather than the third book's)

Even then the first books drawing on the mist granted Epic level allomancy with no real cost.

Maybe we could give them some kind of plot point pool. Expend 10 plot points to draw on the mists. 3 plot points to activate plot armor, 5 for plot hole.

Heh, imagine a class built around plot manipulation. Wouldn't that be fun.

LordZarth
2008-11-30, 12:57 AM
That's a strength of 31,536,011 for 1 round.

Oh, there's an easy fix for this.

Design an Inevitable, one tasked with hunting down the abusers of Feruchemy. Done! :D

Limos
2008-11-30, 01:54 AM
Oh, there's an easy fix for this.

Design an Inevitable, one tasked with hunting down the abusers of Feruchemy. Done! :D

Not even necessary, the plot already provides for that.

Feruchemy is being forcibly bred out of the Terris population and any feruchemists discovered are killed by Inquisitors.

Inquisitors themselves are an unholy amalgam of Allomancer and Feruchemist riddled with Hemalurgic spikes and blindly loyal to the Lord Ruler.

So a normal inquisitor would completely and utterly annihilate the average feruchemist.

Limos
2008-12-01, 08:55 PM
I guess that's all the help I'm going to get eh?

Ah well, it was a lot to ask for anyway.

Knaight
2008-12-01, 09:36 PM
Check your PMs, if you like my offer, PM me back, and we can get this cranked out.

Limos
2008-12-01, 09:41 PM
Check your PMs, if you like my offer, PM me back, and we can get this cranked out.

Well I've already got a couple players together who said they would be interested in a Final Empire campaign. But usually we only use 4e. I've only ever DM'd 4e. Even doing 3.5 was a little iffy.

I'm pretty sure Fudge is outside our comfort zone.

Draz74
2008-12-02, 02:45 AM
I, too, have considered -- a while ago -- how to do these magic systems with D&D (regardless of edition), and concluded that it just doesn't work. And I'm more open to unusual fluff interpretations of D&D magic than some people are. :smallredface:

While I think Feruchemy gives more diminishing returns than Tippy is giving it credit for, his basic point is correct: Feruchemy can be used to "nova" extremely effectively, in a way that, all by itself, would break a D&D-like RPG wide open. You need a much more Narrativist RPG system to handle these kinds of magic.

We could homebrew vaguely similar magic systems that aren't very true to the books ... where the magic systems have some more limits on them, Hemalurgy is more permanent, etc.; but I don't think that's what any of us really want.

For better or worse, I've concluded to just wait and see how the Mistborn RPG itself turns out. (Yes, it is in process. I've seen figurines for the Steel Inquisitors at the opening party for Hero of Ages.)


EDIT: One more thing, it require epic level Bronze skill to break through a coppercloud. Only three people ever accomplish this in the books. The first is some unnamed Inquisitor. I assume that other inquisitors can accomplish this as well. The inquisitor of course was boosted by a hemalurgic spike. The second was Vin, and she too had a Hemalurgic spike. The third is the Lord Ruler, who is basically a demigod and was both an Allomancer, a Feruchemist, and had Hemalurgy.

Some of that should have been "spoilered." Like my response:

Actually, it's not necessarily epic to pierce a coppercloud, but it absolutely requires hemalurgical support. Even at epic, a Mistborn with no hemalurgy can't do it.

If a creature has the same power via both hemalurgy and allomancy, it allows him levels of control that just can't be achieved any other way. This is why Zane had such control over steel-pushing, and why Vin and Marsh-the-Inquisitor and some of the other Inquisitors have so much ability with Bronze (i.e. the ability to pierce copperclouds).

Vin was a natural Mistborn, and her hemalurgic spike gives her the Seeking ability of her late baby sister, who was a Bronze Misting. Other way around for Marsh and some of the other Inquisitors: they were natural Bronze Mistings, and have gained Mistborn-like powers via hemalurgy.

This is all in light of clarification by the author ("Word of God") on his website's forum.

Limos
2008-12-02, 01:22 PM
I, too, have considered -- a while ago -- how to do these magic systems with D&D (regardless of edition), and concluded that it just doesn't work. And I'm more open to unusual fluff interpretations of D&D magic than some people are. :smallredface:

While I think Feruchemy gives more diminishing returns than Tippy is giving it credit for, his basic point is correct: Feruchemy can be used to "nova" extremely effectively, in a way that, all by itself, would break a D&D-like RPG wide open. You need a much more Narrativist RPG system to handle these kinds of magic.

We could homebrew vaguely similar magic systems that aren't very true to the books ... where the magic systems have some more limits on them, Hemalurgy is more permanent, etc.; but I don't think that's what any of us really want.

For better or worse, I've concluded to just wait and see how the Mistborn RPG itself turns out. (Yes, it is in process. I've seen figurines for the Steel Inquisitors at the opening party for Hero of Ages.)



Some of that should have been "spoilered." Like my response:

Actually, it's not necessarily epic to pierce a coppercloud, but it absolutely requires hemalurgical support. Even at epic, a Mistborn with no hemalurgy can't do it.

If a creature has the same power via both hemalurgy and allomancy, it allows him levels of control that just can't be achieved any other way. This is why Zane had such control over steel-pushing, and why Vin and Marsh-the-Inquisitor and some of the other Inquisitors have so much ability with Bronze (i.e. the ability to pierce copperclouds).

Vin was a natural Mistborn, and her hemalurgic spike gives her the Seeking ability of her late baby sister, who was a Bronze Misting. Other way around for Marsh and some of the other Inquisitors: they were natural Bronze Mistings, and have gained Mistborn-like powers via hemalurgy.

This is all in light of clarification by the author ("Word of God") on his website's forum.


The Lord Ruler didn't have any hemalurgic spikes of his own though. His jewlery only pierced his skin to keep it safe from allomancers. He was able to pierce copper clouds and pull on embedded metal because he was an epic level allomancer. Vin was a natural allomancer but she was sub epic. It took outside support to boost her to epic level.

The Lord Ruler was epic all on his own.

He knew how to use Hemalurgy but I don't remember his having any spikes. After he lost his jewlery he was basically dead, if any of his feruchemy had been in spike form he wouldn't have gone down so easily.

Draz74
2008-12-02, 01:35 PM
The Lord Ruler didn't have any hemalurgic spikes of his own though. His jewlery only pierced his skin to keep it safe from allomancers. He was able to pierce copper clouds and pull on embedded metal because he was an epic level allomancer. Vin was a natural allomancer but she was sub epic. It took outside support to boost her to epic level.

The Lord Ruler was epic all on his own.

He knew how to use Hemalurgy but I don't remember his having any spikes. After he lost his jewlery he was basically dead, if any of his feruchemy had been in spike form he wouldn't have gone down so easily.

I don't think we have any conclusive evidence one way or the other about whether the LR used Hemalurgy. He may not have -- he knew Ruin was his enemy. If he did, it was certainly in a different form than the Spikes of the Inquisitors. If Vin's earring could be a hemalurgic spike, some of the LR's piercings could be too.

Still, it wasn't sheer strength of Allomancy that let the LR pierce copperclouds. It was burning his own Feruchemical batteries. That somehow amplified their potency.

Limos
2008-12-02, 08:55 PM
I don't think we have any conclusive evidence one way or the other about whether the LR used Hemalurgy. He may not have -- he knew Ruin was his enemy. If he did, it was certainly in a different form than the Spikes of the Inquisitors. If Vin's earring could be a hemalurgic spike, some of the LR's piercings could be too.

Still, it wasn't sheer strength of Allomancy that let the LR pierce copperclouds. It was burning his own Feruchemical batteries. That somehow amplified their potency.

I thought the feruchemical battery thing was only for the age storages. They used it as an explanation that he created an allomatic metal only he could use by storing up age in his batteries and then burning them.

Then again Atium is used to store age. So how did he manage to burn those batteries to create excess youth?

Also we know that the Lord Ruler was the first Allomancer. Since that time the powers have degraded. (As TenSoon said, Vin is closer to the Allomancers of Old.)

When Elend became a Mistborn he was much stronger than Vin. He wasn't as skilled of course, but he was substantially stronger. And that is the power he gained by using one of the beads used to create the first wave of allomancers, who wouldn't have even been Lord Ruler strength.

So in terms of power Lord Ruler would be at the top, then Elend, then Vin. I think LR would be epic level, Elend just below epic, and Vin requiring signifigant outside assistance to achieve epic level.