I just saw Twilight

[Flame of Anor]

And I was favorably impressed. I have not read the books, though I probably will now. I thought the movie was well-done, though dismissing classic vampire cliches and grinding your face in them (showdown in a HALL OF MIRRORS, people!) was unfortunate. It was also a little distracting that Edward kept reminding me of the Joker. But I thought it was kind of sweet, a bit scary, and not a bad movie, overall. Thoughts?

[DraPrime]

I saw it. It bored me out of my skull for some reason. Were I not with my girlfriend, I would have probably walked out and done something fun.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm probably not going to see it, but that's primarily because every time I turn the corner I hear fangirls squealing over it, and it's driving me batty!

[Innis Cabal]

And I was favorably impressed. I have not read the books, though I probably will now. I thought the movie was well-done, though dismissing classic vampire cliches and grinding your face in them (showdown in a HALL OF MIRRORS, people!) was unfortunate. It was also a little distracting that Edward kept reminding me of the Joker. But I thought it was kind of sweet, a bit scary, and not a bad movie, overall. Thoughts?

Heath Joker? Or just comic book Joker?

If the first....I can't express my feeling into words.

The later? How trite.

[Helanna]

I don't intend on seeing it, but my sister is going sometime soon. Meanwhile, my best friend saw it and he said it was really awful, and that most of the movie seemed to consist of the main characters staring at the camera flaunting how hot they were (whether there was anything to brag about or not).

I have to say, the trailers seemed to be pretty awful. The acting seemed forced and the lines were really, really cliched and cheesy. But of course you can't base anything on the trailer so . . .

Nope, no firsthand information.

[Collin152]

Horrible line delivery, the makeup artist needs to be shot, and various other issues.
May they do better with the sequel that will assuredly follow.

[Flame of Anor]

Heath Joker? Or just comic book Joker?

If the first....I can't express my feeling into words.

The later? How trite.

Heath Joker. The puffy, dark-with-blond hair, the white makeup, the red lips...I swear, if his lips had been any larger and messier, I would have expected him to be all, "Why so serious? HA HA HA HA!" *bang bang* *bite bite* *mutilate maim*

[Innis Cabal]

That poor grave...it must be darn near eliptical.

[Flame of Anor]

Wait, what?


Oh, you mean from all the rolling. Got it.

[Haruki-kun]

I hated the scene where she realizes he's a vampire. Other than that, I don't have many complaints about the movie. Other than the fact that it's honestly aimed for a female audience. Which I'm not.

[Verruckt]

I hated the scene where she realizes he's a vampire. Other than that, I don't have many complaints about the movie. Other than the fact that it's honestly aimed for a female audience. Which I'm not.

Yeah, that scene annoyed the hell out of me. High speed rotating camera thrown in to make up for horrible acting = bad idea.

[Nightmarenny]

I almost wish I was a girl so I could be personally insulted by this, however I am still insulted by the idea that any group could be entertained by that crap. Its not a good love story, the lines are trash, and every teenager is so disgustingly stereotypical(teenage boys like worms!) and a little of Grrl power take control.

Still with all that the thing I hated most is that upon moving to town every boy 14-18(and the vampire) wants a piece of the main character, ignoring their other love interests.

[Volug]

I hated the scene where she realizes he's a vampire. Other than that, I don't have many complaints about the movie. Other than the fact that it's honestly aimed for a female audience. Which I'm not.

This.


Although somewhat seeing James's head ripped off by Alice was pretty neat.

I liked it a lot more then the book, and I don't regret seeing it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Still with all that the thing I hated most is that upon moving to town every boy 14-18(and the vampire) wants a piece of the main character, ignoring their other love interests.

That's not entirely realistic, as long as it doesn't last.

[Raistlin1040]

Here's the thing. The author? Stephanie Meyer? Regardless of her storytelling abilities, the woman CANNOT WRITE TO SAVE HER LIFE. Reading her sentences is painful. She drags on with adjectives that are unnecessary. Not a quote, but this is what some of her sentences read like: "We stood in the cool, damp forest, on the wet, dirty ground, and I looked up and saw Edward's pale, handsome face against the bright, glowing sun, sparkling and looking back at me with brilliant, golden eyes." Aside from that, the first book wasn't that interesting. We, the audience, know Edward's a vampire. Duh, it's a vampire book. So while it does establish character development, reading half a book about Bella going "How does he do that? OMG, he's fast and strong and stuff! Is he Superman? Is he a vampire? Wha?" is blah.

The movie, in my opinion, was a far improvement. They trimmed it down, still keeping the important stuff, both plotwise and characterwise. The acting was...goodish. Could have been better, but it wasn't total cardboard. It certainly wasn't a perfect movie, by any stretch of the imagination, but it was probably a B- or a B, in my mind.

[Collin152]

My sister read the book without any foreknowledge about his vampire status.
She kept saying Serial Killer to herself.

[Raistlin1040]

That amuses me, far more than it should. Your sister earns a cookie.

[Albub]

Does that sister of yours watch much dexter?

I've heard nothing but good from my moar-than-obsessed fangirl friends, but I really don't trust them when it comes to media. I have a friend who went to watch it recently, but I'm on a communications lockdown following a 5 day suspension form school, so I'll get his opinion tomorrow sometime. All reviews I've looked at said it was pretty lacklustre, which saddens me. I was hoping it would deserve it's inevitable enormous success.

[hanzo66]

I watched this... (http://www.cracked.com/video_16776_5-reasons-youll-hate-movie-twilight.html)

I think it's a movie that I'm not going to be seeing anytime soon.

[Tichrondrius]

I don't understand the hate Twilight gets.

Well, I do understand it, but its mostly undeserved.

Mostly.

It's a fairly decent book.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Alright.
I'll explain this the way I've explained myself in every Twilight thread that devolves into Twilight bashing.
I liked the books. I acknowledge its crappily written and a piece of crap literature, and that love doesn't happen that way, etc.
For someone who doesn't believe in true love, I enjoyed the books immensely as a guilty pleasure.

The movie disappointed me. I never realized how awful the dialogue was until it was delivered by subpar actors with cheesey special effects.
They could have done the sparkle better. And the running.
Gawd, that was awful.

[Stupendous_Man]

I don't understand the hate Twilight gets.

Well, I do understand it, but its mostly undeserved.

Mostly.

It's a fairly decent book.

Sparkle sparkle!

Creepy stalker possessive vampire boyfriend falls for mary sue!

[Revlid]

I don't understand the hate Twilight gets.

Well, I do understand it, but its mostly undeserved.

Mostly.

It's a fairly decent book.

You dirty, filthy liar.

I have read the book, and, fair warning to you all, you shouldn't pay money for it. I would go so far as to say I would rather watch a Uwe Boll movie than re-read this book; at least most people recognize how bad he is. There are no Uwe Boll fangirls.

[Tichrondrius]

Just saw the movie and I must say its pretty sub par... Edward was a huge disappointment. He seemed extremely whiny throughout the entire thing and that coupled with it being on screen made his the stalker thing a lot more obvious. Her circle of friends, however, were played marvelousy and now i'm sad they fade out in later books. I was also sad to see James go after his actor did a fairly excellent job.

The main actors, however, were pretty terrible and Edward and Bella have absolutely no chemistry. It also suffered from a heavy dose of Harry Potter Syndrome, and important things that crop up in later books were cut.

But, most distressingly of all, Edward did not sparkle in the movie. The sun was cast down on him and he turns out and... nothing. He looks like he did two seconds ago when he was in the shade. That just infuriates me to no end... which brings up another thing, who gives a **** if they sparkle? What, your an expert on vampire biology? The best defense i've seen to sparkle haters is 'it doesn't make sense'. News flash, vampires don't make sense. Drinking blood, living forever, super strength all when they are supposed to be dead? Not making much sense. What exactly defines a vampire? Drinking blood? Not all vampire myths have that. Immortality? Not in every myth. Supernatural beauty? Psh, only added recently in novels and movies. What defines a vampire? You probably wouldn't say sparkling in the sunlight. But give it a rest.

And i'm certainly not seeing where all this Bella = Mary Sue is coming from... shes none too smart, puts her self in danger self destructively, is naive, clumsy... Certainly no aspects of being perfect, being a friend to all living things, etc etc. Maybe you could make a case for Mary Sueism after her embrace, but eh.

And why does everyone always play the 'don't pay money for it' card, haven't you people ever heard of a library?

[Comet]

There are no Uwe Boll fangirls.
I dunno, he still keeps on directing those godawful films of his. He has to have some kind of fanbase, yeah? (or maybe he just can't take a hint)
Also, in my experience, there is a group of fangirls for EVERYTHING on the earth. EVERYTHING. If it exists, it has fangirls.

[Closet_Skeleton]

And i'm certainly not seeing where all this Bella = Mary Sue is coming from... shes none too smart, puts her self in danger self destructively, is naive, clumsy... Certainly no aspects of being perfect, being a friend to all living things, etc etc. Maybe you could make a case for Mary Sueism after her embrace, but eh.

There is a subtype of Mary Sue that are frequently claimed to be "clumsy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Dojikko) and stupid (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BookDumb)" but still do normal Mary Sue things.

Not that Twilight necesaraly has that problem, but "superficially flawed" does not stop you being a Mary Sue. Being a Mary Sue is generally nothing more than how much you annoy your audience as opposed to a list of traits.

[Ryuuk]

I thought a big part of a Mary Sue character was that they are almost universally liked by the other characters. Regardless of the character's actions or in-actions, all the other cast members will constantly view that character as perfect.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I personally don't see Bella as a Mary-Sue.
She's a bit of an idiot, yeah, but I kinda found her endearing.

But, yes. The creepiness was made known to me while watching that movie. :smalleek:
Especially with him being in her room at night without her knowing it.

[T-O-E]

Just saw the trailer, I thought it was a parody.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I thought a big part of a Mary Sue character was that they are almost universally liked by the other characters. Regardless of the character's actions or in-actions, all the other cast members will constantly view that character as perfect.

A Mary Sue only has to be liked by the characters that actually matter. If you have 2 love interests obsessed with you, it doesn't matter if a billion irrelevant side characters and nameless bits of cardboard hate you.

[MammonAzrael]

I thought the movie was exactly what it was advertised to be. A decent movie adaptation of a mediocre teen vampire romance novel. I haven't read the next three books, though I likely will since my girlfriend wants me to, and I've read much worse.

The movie can be entertaining if you don't take it seriously. At all. Ever. And don't expect any subtly.

Of course (surprise surprise) the book was notably better than the movie.

Overall, I never plan on seeing it again, and won't see the sequels unless the SO wants me to go.

[Tichrondrius]

A Mary Sue only has to be liked by the characters that actually matter. If you have 2 love interests obsessed with you, it doesn't matter if a billion irrelevant side characters and nameless bits of cardboard hate you.

The only Mary Sue requirement is to have two love interests? Interesting....

[Closet_Skeleton]

The only Mary Sue requirement is to have two love interests? Interesting....

No, but having two love interests who are utterly devoted to you, would kill themselves rather than settle for a lesser woman and don't care how you treat them helps more than being a pop star with thousands of fans.

There are no requirements for being a Mary Sue, that's why you can't stop yourself from writing one by following rules (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiSue).

[RabbitHoleLost]

As well as the Antisue, there's the Angst Sue and several other types.
If someone's out to hate a book, they'll find a Marysue.
Its why I don't take much stock in anyone calling a character a Marysue.

[Tichrondrius]

To be fair, out of her three love interests;

Rampant spoilers.

1. Mike goes after her so hard for a while but I don't blame him, seeing as how his other love interest is Jessica who is a pretty big Libby in her own right, demanding, etc... just terrible all around but he does eventually settle for her.

2. Edward, she showers with love and constant adoration and he just returns it in full force, so... oh, yeah, he would probably leave if she treated him badly, mostly just to save her though.

3. Jacob Black is completely insanely in love with her, and loves her no matter how much she puts him though but she tries to keep pushing him into the friend zone to no avail. Eventually he does settle- for an equal woman, the main chicks daughter, where its revealed that he 'imprinted' (its a our werewolves our special thing from the book) on her before she was born, which is why he loved Bella so much but Bella didn't love him 'that way' and thanks to werewolf magic they can all live happily ever after now.

[Closet_Skeleton]

As well as the Antisue, there's the Angst Sue and several other types.
If someone's out to hate a book, they'll find a Marysue.
Its why I don't take much stock in anyone calling a character a Marysue.

Stock? Its a meme that gained popularity on the internet, why would you want buy shares in it at al?

[Hzurr]

First off, let me go ahead and say that if I see another post with the phrase "Mary Sue" in it, I'll shoot myself in the face. This thread is why I'm bothered by TVTropes.

Back on topic, I'd agree that it's a thoroughly mediocre movie. Not horrible, but not the best. A few interesting parts, a few stupid parts, so I'll give it a B/B-, similar to a previous poster whose name I'm too lazy to look up.

The one thing that bothered me was that Edward was creepy moreoften than romantic. Staring at someone while they sleep? For 3 months? Not romantic, just creepy. Also, one thing that was creepy, but a nice touch, was that every so often when the two Edward & Bella were talking, his eyes would kindof drift down to her neck. Again, creepy but a nice detail.

I haven't read any of the books, although my sisters & fiancee have read all of them. The general feeling I got from them is that none of these books are really "high" literature, they're simply cheesy love stories that are enjoyable to read (One friend compared it to eating cake. Not good for you, not filling, but enjoyable).

[Bryn]

Hmm...
MARY SUE.

[Listens for gunshot]

Erm... I imagine you know this already, but for the record, the term "Mary Sue" predates the TV Tropes wiki by quite some time. Similarly, people have complained about media since long before TV Tropes came into being, and I'm quite sure they'd be saying the same things in different terms if it wasn't for the existence of that site. TV Tropes itself is best treated as an amusing site for enjoying media. Don't take it too seriously, and you can have a lot of fun - just like a great many things.

As for Twilight: I must admit that I've never read it, nor watched it, and so I have very little meaningful discussion to offer about the movie. It certainly doesn't seem to generate quite as much rage on these boards as Eragon, which is a relief... but on the other hand, it seems to generate less entertaining snark, which is a shame.

[Hzurr]

Hmm...
MARY SUE.

[Listens for gunshot]


BANG!!

...

*Zombie Hzurr rises*

"Braaaaaains..."



Erm... I imagine you know this already, but for the record, the term "Mary Sue" predates the TV Tropes wiki by quite some time. Similarly, people have complained about media since long before TV Tropes came into being, and I'm quite sure they'd be saying the same things in different terms if it wasn't for the existence of that site. TV Tropes itself is best treated as an amusing site for enjoying media. Don't take it too seriously, and you can have a lot of fun - just like a great many things.


Actually, I didn't know that. Until the rise of TVTropes, I had never heard that phrase before (I understood the concept, and had most likely discussed it with people before, but had never heard the name "Mary Sue" attached to it before). My biggest issue with the use of TVTropes is that it seems like it's become impossible to have any type of coversation about media without people throwing around these phrases left and right. Often, it seems like people use them to appear more knowledgable and more widely read then they actually are.

As a side note, I also have issues with the quality of the site itself. Poorly designed, poorly edited, no sort of quality standard to speak of (compare the average TVtropes entry to an average Wikipedia entry. The difference is night and day.

*/back on topic*
...er... I actually have nothing more to say on the actual topic. My apologies for aiding in thread de-railment

[Eita]

Actually, people throw those phrases around so that instead of just describing something they hate they can use a TVTrope name for it. So much simpler.

Now then, what I hated most about the movie was, well, pretty much everything. The camera-work was just, bleh. CLOSE-UP, DIAGONAL, ROTATING LENSES THAT DON'T LET YOU SEE THE BIG PICTURE!!! The line delivery was equally bad, with dramatic pauses where they shouldn't have dramatic pauses. Special effects, one word: After-images. Music, I'm just annoyed that there was no orchestral score in a movie about Vlad. Plot? Do I even need to say anything? Also, you know how in Gear's of War there are only like four colors? Brown, gray, black, and gray? That's how Twilight is, ALWAYS.

Thankfully for my insanity however, I joked about it the entire time. One that got some laughs in the theater was "*GASP* Edward's a Canadian drug smuggler!" Also, I absolutely loved the ending where Alice snaps James' neck, and then they show him being lit on fire. Honestly, I hope that whoever made the Twilight movie uses their proceeds to make a short where they just show James' gory demise in full-color detail.

[JadedDM]

People don't complain about sparkling vampires because they 'don't make sense.' They complain because it's incredibly lame.

And for those who claim the main character is not a Mary Sue, have you even stopped and looked at her name? Bella Swan. Are you kidding me? Beautiful Swan? That's a huge red flag right there.

[Tichrondrius]

People don't complain about sparkling vampires because they 'don't make sense.' They complain because it's incredibly lame.

And for those who claim the main character is not a Mary Sue, have you even stopped and looked at her name? Bella Swan. Are you kidding me? Beautiful Swan? That's a huge red flag right there.

Vampires are pretty much the whitest things around. I always imagined it like pure white sand that sort of glitters in the sunlight on a very bright day.

Now theres a stretch.

[RPGuru1331]

Vampires are pretty much the whitest things around. I always imagined it like pure white sand that sort of glitters in the sunlight on a very bright day.

Now theres a stretch.
I don't think albinos glitter.

Of course, some of us have sense; If something torches in sunlight, we don't test to see if it glitters. Unlike the Twilight Author, where vampirism seems to just mean "I eat people" and "I'm super awesome"..

[Tichrondrius]

I don't think albinos glitter.

Of course, some of us have sense; If something torches in sunlight, we don't test to see if it glitters. Unlike the Twilight Author, where vampirism seems to just mean "I eat people" and "I'm super awesome"..

I also don't think albinos are supernatural.

[Redpieper]

Alright I haven't seen the movie but this review is hilarious.
http://blip.tv/file/1524356/

[RPGuru1331]

I also don't think albinos are supernatural.

You listed a flatly 'natural' reason, however. Notwithstanding that just because it's white, doesn't mean it glitters or sparkles.

[RabbitHoleLost]

People don't complain about sparkling vampires because they 'don't make sense.' They complain because it's incredibly lame.

And for those who claim the main character is not a Mary Sue, have you even stopped and looked at her name? Bella Swan. Are you kidding me? Beautiful Swan? That's a huge red flag right there.

And there was a character in the Anita Blake series named Bella Morte, which I've seen some people on this forum claim to be a better alternative for vampire romance, but can be just as cheesey awful in some places as Twilight, crammed in with all the unnecessary polyamorous kinkeh vampire/lycanthropy sex.
Whatever.
My opinion on the whole subject of Mary Sues has been made. I think its an easy excuse to throw at a character one dislikes, because you can essentially tweak any character to fit any variation of a Mary Sue. Right down to a name.
Bella is a common name. Swan is a common last name. You could probably find a few thousand Bella Swan's in the US.
Oh jeez, so Marysue. :smallsigh:

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah, but picking it as a name for your main character smacks of REALLY OBVIOUS hidden meaning. Perhaps I think this because every character name I come up with is generally either meaningful or a horrid pun.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Yeah, but picking it as a name for your main character smacks of REALLY OBVIOUS hidden meaning. Perhaps I think this because every character name I come up with is generally either meaningful or a horrid pun.

I have a massive inability to name characters, so I decided to make a notepad document whenever I come up with a nice sounding name and then try make the character up around the name instead. I still have a 70 year long epic plotted out where the protagonist doesn't have a name yet.

[sun_tzu]

I haven't read any of the books, although my sisters & fiancee have read all of them. The general feeling I got from them is that none of these books are really "high" literature, they're simply cheesy love stories that are enjoyable to read (One friend compared it to eating cake. Not good for you, not filling, but enjoyable).
So...like the Da Vinci Code?

(I haven't seen the movie or read the book, don't intend to. From the reviews, the one thing that really bothers me is that it generally sounds like the leads are in a borderline abusive relationship which is portrayed positively as True Love...)

[Tichrondrius]

I don't know where people are drawing borderline abusive and overly protective jealous bastard from. The worst thing he does is watch her while she sleeps and while there is no way to justify that.... it is very creepy, but she seems okay with it and he doesn't sleep, ever, so... whatever floats their boat. He never abuses her physically or mentally (okay there was that one time he just left her/broke up with her for her own safety and she went insane a little) and tries to be the best he can to her, and continually questions how lucky he is, calls himself a monster, and is constantly terrified of hurting her. He is a old world gentlemen, and its her that has to force herself on him for sex (after their married no less) for the first time and when he does get into it he bruises her a little (vampire strength) and mopes about it for days while she has to constantly remind him she didn't even notice till he bought it up, she doesn't care, and she wants to do it again which he refuses out of fear for her safety.

On the jealousy issue, he allows her to be friends with a guy who obviously wants her, continually tries to get her to go with him instead, absolutely hates him, and continually makes racist (vampire) remarks about him and his family. Edward even tries to make friends with him himself. Her friend even tried to force himself on her (werewolves have trouble... controlling themselves) and Edward really wanted to kill him, but didn't because Bella still wanted to be friends with him.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I don't know where people are drawing borderline abusive and overly protective jealous bastard from.

Maybe its a nervous reaction to stop him appearing as painfully perfect as the author wants him to.

[Tichrondrius]

Yeah, I can see complaints of him being painfully perfect, but I can't see any indication of jealous abusive etc boyfriend.

[Hzurr]

So...like the Da Vinci Code?



Heh, although in fairness, Twilight was probably more accurate than the Da Vinci Code :smalltongue:

(Sorry, but I've recently had to deal with some people who were convinced that the Da Vinci Code was real. *headdesk*)

[RabbitHoleLost]

Yeah, I can see complaints of him being painfully perfect, but I can't see any indication of jealous abusive etc boyfriend.

Having liked the book series, I have to disagree with you. Edward is harcore jealous and overprotective, to the point of abusive.
He lets her see Jacob, but only after she sneaks off to do it anyways.
If you have to sneak off to see a friend because your vampire boyfriend said no, and once took your truck apart to keep you from seeing him, its kinda bad

[Darken Rahl]

It amuses me when the biggest complaint about this picture is how his skin doesn't sparkle in the light. I'm not singling out anyone in this thread, I have seen this as a major complaint across the internet.

Let me say that again.

The important thing they left out was...

a visual effect.

Not characters that were important, not plot that was important, not development or exposition, not key scenes.

Sparkles.

And that speaks volumes to me about just how much depth the book had before it was cut down to make it into a screenplay.

Sparkles.

[Stupendous_Man]

Having liked the book series, I have to disagree with you. Edward is harcore jealous and overprotective, to the point of abusive.
He lets her see Jacob, but only after she sneaks off to do it anyways.
If you have to sneak off to see a friend because your vampire boyfriend said no, and once took your truck apart to keep you from seeing him, its kinda bad

But he only does it because he loves her!

Also, her truck had bad brakes and a faulty transmission.

[RPGuru1331]

It amuses me when the biggest complaint about this picture is how his skin doesn't sparkle in the light. I'm not singling out anyone in this thread, I have seen this as a major complaint across the internet.

Let me say that again.

The important thing they left out was...

a visual effect.

Not characters that were important, not plot that was important, not development or exposition, not key scenes.

Sparkles.

And that speaks volumes to me about just how much depth the book had before it was cut down to make it into a screenplay.

Sparkles.

...Owch. you raise a good point, good sir.

[Gamiress]

I'd like the people defending Edward's behaviour to step back and re-read their own arguments.

He allows her to be friends with Jacob?
He only spied on her while she was sleeping?
It's okay for him to dismantle her car to keep her from leaving?

[Stupendous_Man]

I'd like the people defending Edward's behaviour to step back and re-read their own arguments.

He allows her to be friends with Jacob?
He only spied on her while she was sleeping?
It's okay for him to dismantle her car to keep her from leaving?

Behaviors, I might add, that could get him arrested in 48 out of 50 states.

[Eita]

Except in Georgia and Tennessee of course, where he'd be revered as a proper Southern Gentleman. Except the part about watching her sleep of course. That's just weird.

[harrydresden]

So, we've all decided that this is one creepy vampire. But I thought all vampires were supposed to be creepy? :smallbiggrin: Does anyone else have a problem with the fact that apparently no one involved in the movie understands the difference between a carnivore and a herbivore? All the vampires in the movie are carnivores, no matter how badly creepy lead man wants to describe himself. I just found that humorous while watching the film, and wondered if anyone else noticed.

[Raistlin1040]

If you're referring to the 'Vegetarian' comment, it's a joke. Actual vegetarians abstain from animals. The Cullens abstain from Humans (The vampire race's prime food source, comparable to animals) in favor of animals. Technically, they are vegetarians in their own way, but it becomes ironic when they eat animal blood.

And that is how a joke is formed, children.

[RabbitHoleLost]

If you're referring to the 'Vegetarian' comment, it's a joke. Actual vegetarians abstain from animals. The Cullens abstain from Humans (The vampire race's prime food source, comparable to animals) in favor of animals. Technically, they are vegetarians in their own way, but it becomes ironic when they eat animal blood.

And that is how a joke is formed, children.

Raistlin wins all my love.

[harrydresden]

If you're referring to the 'Vegetarian' comment, it's a joke. Actual vegetarians abstain from animals. The Cullens abstain from Humans (The vampire race's prime food source, comparable to animals) in favor of animals. Technically, they are vegetarians in their own way, but it becomes ironic when they eat animal blood.

And that is how a joke is formed, children.

I wasn't going to get technical, but since you have forced my hand, I must point out the technicalities in your response. First: they are not vegetarians in any way shape or form, so your "technically" answer doesn't fit here. Second: the line in the movie wouldn't have been remotely as amusing if I didn't have questions as to whether the writer actually knew the difference. Third: In case you are unaware of Meyer's vampire lore, her vampires (like all others that I am aware of) don't eat for their sustanence. They drink, so your irony fails once again. But don't sell yourself short, the joke was appreciated by many teenage girls I'm sure.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I wasn't going to get technical, but since you have forced my hand, I must point out the technicalities in your response. First: they are not vegetarians in any way shape or form, so your "technically" answer doesn't fit here. Second: the line in the movie wouldn't have been remotely as amusing if I didn't have questions as to whether the writer actually knew the difference. Third: In case you are unaware of Meyer's vampire lore, her vampires (like all others that I am aware of) don't eat for their sustanence. They drink, so your irony fails once again. But don't sell yourself short, the joke was appreciated by many teenage girls I'm sure.

Nitpicking, much?
Atleast, on that last comment. "Eating" or "drinking", Raistlin still seems to make the most logical statement.
Meyer may be an awful writer with a twisted sense of healthy relationships, but the woman isn't stupid. In the movie, Edward had even said it was the Cullen's little joke. She knew the difference, she assumed the audience would know the difference and would appreciate the jest.
Apparantly, even though it was clearly explained, the joke was lost on some.

[JadedDM]

It's just not a good joke, is all.

Now here's a funny joke: What do you call a vampire with no fangs, doesn't burn in the sunlight, and doesn't drink human blood?

BORING!

:smalltongue:

[Tichrondrius]

Having liked the book series, I have to disagree with you. Edward is harcore jealous and overprotective, to the point of abusive.
He lets her see Jacob, but only after she sneaks off to do it anyways.
If you have to sneak off to see a friend because your vampire boyfriend said no, and once took your truck apart to keep you from seeing him, its kinda bad

Oh yeah, I forgot about that part. Sorry, i've mostly remembered the newest books... I still say just hardcore overprotective, werewolves, especially new werewolves, aren't good at controlling themselves and Edward, after actually meeting Jacob, actually does give in to the fact that hes not dangerous. Need I remind you that Jacob did force himself on her a little at various times?

Not to say I don't like Jacob, but...


I'd like the people defending Edward's behaviour to step back and re-read their own arguments.

He allows her to be friends with Jacob?
He only spied on her while she was sleeping?
It's okay for him to dismantle her car to keep her from leaving?

1. A person who doesn't even try and hide the fact that he hates you, hates your family, and wants to take your girlfriend by force, if needed.
2. Said it was creepy, and only got creepier in the movie.
3. Forgot about that one.

And the 'vegetarian' joke is more dry humor... something to be mumbled under your breath like 'i guess we're vegetarians haha' not a major laugh out loud punchline.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It's just not a good joke, is all.

Now here's a funny joke: What do you call a vampire with no fangs, doesn't burn in the sunlight, and doesn't drink human blood?

BORING!

:smalltongue:

Only assuming they don't have any other traits to balance out the awesomeness.

Most mythological vampires don't have fangs, I've only found one mythological vampire that burns in sunlight and it was an african myth and many mythological vampires kill sheep before working their way up to humans later.

[Drascin]

Now here's a funny joke: What do you call a vampire with no fangs, doesn't burn in the sunlight, and doesn't drink human blood?


True Ancestor? (http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u262/drascin/08147e0db0aa357d04be4716f9c96062909.jpg) (okay, so I think she might she technically have fangs, but she keeps hiding them unless she's very pissed)

[Yulian]

Only assuming they don't have any other traits to balance out the awesomeness.

Most mythological vampires don't have fangs, I've only found one mythological vampire that burns in sunlight and it was an african myth and many mythological vampires kill sheep before working their way up to humans later.

Yes, but these have no weaknesses at all.

There's literally no downside to what they are in the least little bit. The very fact that animal blood is a viable option completely negates any hunger they feel for human blood. It's just a willpower issue, like smoking.

They are beautiful, immortal, telepathic, have a super-physicals package, are repelled by nothing, can go where they want at will, can have sex and breed..it's actually all rather cloyingly trite.

And Edward is majorly creepy:

"He spies on Bella while she sleeps, eavesdrops on her conversations, reads her classmates’ minds, forges her signature, tries to dictate her choice of friends, encourages her to deceive her father, disables her truck, has his family hold her at his house against her will, and enters her house when no one’s there — all because, he explains, he wants her to be safe. He warns Bella how dangerous he is, but gets 'furious' at anyone else who tries to warn or protect her. He even drags her to the prom against her expressed wishes. … It gets even worse after the wedding night in Breaking Dawn, when Bella finds herself trying to cover up a multitude of bruises left by the super-strong Edward. That scene, which Meyer treats with appalling lightness — 'This is really nothing,' Bella tells her remorseful husband, insisting that the experience was 'wonderful and perfect' — should send a chill down the spine of any parent with a daughter."

That is so uncool I can't even begin to describe how uncool that last bit is.

I read the first book effectively by accident years ago. I got it in a box of other books, skimmed it fast, and promptly forgot I ever read it. I didn't know about what happens later.

- Yulian

[Tichrondrius]

Anyone who reads it will draw their own views from it and theres little to be said to either side that will change the other.

[ivendale]

Twilight=made of epic level fail

-(in my opinion)

[WhiteKnight777]

"It gets even worse after the wedding night in Breaking Dawn, when Bella finds herself trying to cover up a multitude of bruises left by the super-strong Edward. That scene, which Meyer treats with appalling lightness — 'This is really nothing,' Bella tells her remorseful husband, insisting that the experience was 'wonderful and perfect' — should send a chill down the spine of any parent with a daughter."

That is so uncool I can't even begin to describe how uncool that last bit is.

I read the first book effectively by accident years ago. I got it in a box of other books, skimmed it fast, and promptly forgot I ever read it. I didn't know about what happens later.

- Yulian



Anyone who reads it will draw their own views from it and theres little to be said to either side that will change the other.

Not to offend, but there's a point where "It's my opinion and you can't tell me it's wrong" kind of reasoning ceases to have weight. That last passage regarding the bruising pretty much crosses the line. Even assuming it was completely accidental, there are some pretty unfortunate overtones in that particular scene.

"Really, officer, he didn't mean it..." (Not an actual quote, so far as I know, just being illustrative.)

[RabbitHoleLost]

So, I've started reading the draft for Midnight Son, which was supposed to be the first book from Edwards point of view, but got canceled because apparantly Stephanie Meyer is whiny and got all angry that someone leaked the rough draft to the internet. Waaaaaahmbulance.
ANYWAYS, its like she heard all of the criticism about her vampires and ried to make up for it.
There's three whole pages about Edward first meeting Bella. And him wondering how fast he can kill everyone else in the room in order to suck her dry in peace.
I lol'd, because Bella's point of view was all happy and sunshine-y and Edwards is certainly not.

[Gamiress]

I heard that the novel was canceled because of the backlash from fans who read the leaked drafts and hated that their fairytale was going darker and edgier.

Which makes me a little sad, I might have enjoyed Midnight Sun if it goes into how Edward is actually really psychotic.

[Tichrondrius]

I think the fact that she hardly noticed in the wake of how the sex was, wouldn't just leave him the hell alone about doing her even when he said it was dangerous and hes a freaking vampire worried about controlling himself, he mopes about way longer then needed and that it never happens again all but negates that bad connotations of the scene.

Apparently, the official story is she was writing it and some people posted a leaked version of the first few chapters and apparently she has 'dont look at my drawing its not done' syndrome where she can't finish a work if people see the beginning and shes so pissed off she can't focus, saying if she continued writing now James would end up killing them all at the end. Apparently, shes going to try again once everyones forgotten about it.

[zach12376]

My friend saw it, and read the book befor he saw the movie.

His thoughts:
(book) "OK, not great but not bad, OK"
(Movie) "My firend's gilfriend draged him, who draged me. I wanted to rip my eyes out and stole his PSP and watched another movie"

Basicly, Book, 6/10
Movie, 1/10

Me: Book, 10/10
Movie NA/10

I have not seen it

[WhiteKnight777]

I think the fact that she hardly noticed in the wake of how the sex was, wouldn't just leave him the hell alone about doing her even when he said it was dangerous and hes a freaking vampire worried about controlling himself, he mopes about way longer then needed and that it never happens again all but negates that bad connotations of the scene.


Ah, so she was asking for it. That certainly makes it okay. :smallconfused:

[Nightmarenny]

Ah, so she was asking for it. That certainly makes it okay. :smallconfused:

Please don't do that. Its stupid. This is more applicable to Klingon sex(Dax and Worfs injuries) than wife beating. I haven't read it but it just sounds like alittle rough sex and alot of girls seem to love that.

[ForzaFiori]

{Scrubbed}

Now then, my opinion about the movie/book. I can't say that the book was a masterpiece, or anything like that, and it was pretty obvious not aimed at my gender. However, for a light read just for S&G, I found it pretty good, and the 3 afterwords seemed to get better as she went.
except for
the part in New Moon where Edward leaves and she gets all emo. I've been depressed, and I found it alot different than that. Just my 2 cents though.


The movie was pretty good, though I can think of ways they could have made it better. A few things weren't the way Stephanie described them, and that bothered me a bit (like Mike and Angela being Oriental, and when Edward saved Bella from the truck, it was a tad bit different, small stuff like that) The acting was a bit flat, but it wasn't like the movie was from a big name studio and producer. I'm hoping that someone with more money will pick up the next 3 so that they can do it a bit better. The only real thing i didn't like was the running/jumping. It was OBVIOUSLY faked.

and the sparkles weren't how I thought of it :smallbiggrin:

and to the people who are saying her name is stupid, Bella is actually a VERY common nickname for Isabella. So get over yourselves. Plenty of people go by that every day, doesn't mean they're a Mary Sue.

[Tichrondrius]

Ah, so she was asking for it. That certainly makes it okay. :smallconfused:

{Scrubbed}

[Yulian]

Anyone who reads it will draw their own views from it and theres little to be said to either side that will change the other.

Have you ever known someone in an abusive relationship?

There's no "drawing your own views" from a woman hiding and excusing bruises because her lover hurt her. Seriously. It's almost impossible to interpret it any other way. Either the author did it purposefully, or she's really that clueless and thought it's okay.

Although the image of Edward being tackled and dragged off, Cops-style, with Bella yelling "But he didn't do anything! I'll wait for you, baby!" while being held back by the officers is pretty funny.

"This is unit 18, standard undead domestic. Yeah...no, I'm pretty sure she won't press charges."

You know, RabbitHoleLost...if that were the case, then that makes it even worse. Then he really is a monster and that makes Bella seem even more of a simp. I think the author just really doesn't understand real relationships - which, when you think about it, is why it speaks so strongly to the tween market, hm?

{Scrubbed}

If something can be validly criticized then it can be validly criticized. I think those of us that are (and remember, I've read the book) have just as much of a right to do so as you have to get obnoxious about it and call names.

We're just being more civil about it and pointing out elements that, in this day and age, could be actively harmful to the developing mind of a young, female fan. I've been very specific about it as well. That sort of behavior is exactly what you can see in an abusive relationship to a degree that is actually quite chilling. The controlling of her social life, her ability to excuse personal injury...please go look up the signs of an abusive relationship then go back and map them to the books.

The "rough sex" aspect could be overlooked easily, if all the other elements weren't present as well. Rough vampire sex is a trope that comes up a lot, after all. But with everything else present, it becomes a great deal more sinister.

And if Bella is a Mary Sue, then usually one can throw out a great many specific examples, which many people have. "The most desirable girl in town who doesn't realize she's attractive" is at least one such example.
"Bella Swan" is sort of a trite name too. But then, vampire fiction abounds with trite names. The worst I ever heard was "Lilith Silver" from a laughable little film called Razor Blade Smile.

Guess what? Overarching pop-culture phenomena are not immune to criticism. Far from it, in fact.

- Yulian

[ForzaFiori]

{Scrubbed}

If something can be validly criticized then it can be validly criticized. I think those of us that are (and remember, I've read the book) have just as much of a right to do so as you have to get obnoxious about it and call names.

We're just being more civil about it and pointing out elements that, in this day and age, could be actively harmful to the developing mind of a young, female fan. I've been very specific about it as well. That sort of behavior is exactly what you can see in an abusive relationship to a degree that is actually quite chilling. The controlling of her social life, her ability to excuse personal injury...please go look up the signs of an abusive relationship then go back and map them to the books.

The "rough sex" aspect could be overlooked easily, if all the other elements weren't present as well. Rough vampire sex is a trope that comes up a lot, after all. But with everything else present, it becomes a great deal more sinister.

And if Bella is a Mary Sue, then usually one can throw out a great many specific examples, which many people have. "The most desirable girl in town who doesn't realize she's attractive" is at least one such example.
"Bella Swan" is sort of a trite name too. But then, vampire fiction abounds with trite names. The worst I ever heard was "Lilith Silver" from a laughable little film called Razor Blade Smile.

Guess what? Overarching pop-culture phenomena are not immune to criticism. Far from it, in fact.

- Yulian

{Scrubbed}

[JadedDM]

I haven't read it but it just sounds like alittle rough sex and alot of girls seem to love that.

Okay, let's say you're right here. You don't find it, maybe a little creepy, that a book written for teenage girls has rough sex in it?


and to the people who are saying her name is stupid, Bella is actually a VERY common nickname for Isabella. So get over yourselves. Plenty of people go by that every day, doesn't mean they're a Mary Sue.

You're missing the point. Bella means "Beautiful." Her last name is Swan. So literally, her name is "Beautiful Swan." Anwyay, you're right that her name alone isn't what makes her a Mary Sue. It also is because every male she meets, without exception, falls for her immediately and for no apparent reason.

[eilandesq]

Please don't do that. Its stupid. This is more applicable to Klingon sex(Dax and Worfs injuries) than wife beating. I haven't read it but it just sounds like alittle rough sex and alot of girls seem to love that.

Or like Larry Niven's Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex essay about Superman's sex life:


http://www.rawbw.com/~svw/superman.html

That essay inspired me some years back to write a BtVS fanfic featuring Xander dealing with the side effects of a relationship with Buffy:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/213708/1/Woman_of_Steel_Man_of_Kleenex

Ultimately, the lesson to be learned here is that in relationships where one partner is literally orders of magnitude stronger and tougher than the other, certain problems are inevitable:

--the more fragile partner is going to get injured, possibly in life-threatening ways;

--others who are not in the know about the circumstances of the relationship are likely to interpret this as abuse;

--it might be a good idea for both partners to reflect deeply on whether continuing the relationship is a good idea under the circumstances, and their friends in the know should probably make known their thoughts on the subject.

[Innis Cabal]

There are alot of ways to respond to the above.....

Its not good manners to...call people "retards" or "stupid". Nor is it polite or kind to call people stupid for not "telling people they are getting beaten" and that they should get "what ever they get".

You might want to edit your post.

[Warpfire]

Man, pre-teen vampire novels are serious business.

[Nightmarenny]

{Scrubbed}
Guy asks what everyone thought and I say I hated the acting/special effects/ writing. No one really responded to my problems with the movie so I haven't been back(because the only thing I could contribute is "God that was bad, bad, bad" I gave my opinian why would I stay here and bitch about the movie?)

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep it civil in here.

[Tichrondrius]

I find it distasteful that after numerous people seeing the post of the less then civil other person on my side, they may assume mine was around the same level of competence and not a general statement. In light of recent events, I put forth my original statement with the offending word replaced with googlymoogly.

"Now you're just being googlymoogly."

This is just to keep my posts distinct from the much worse flame by the other.

[Stupendous_Man]

I wish to ask a question.

Supposedly, the kids who read these books should know that abusive relationships are wrong and such.

But how do kids know what's wrong with a relationship? They don't have experience in relationships first hand (at least not much experience) so how do they know what's healthy or not in a relationship?

Kids, as far as I can tell learn things from three main sources.

1. Parents
2. Peers
3. The Media

I submit that if the Media and their Peers spread one message, the impression will be made and the lesson learned.

Kids are, after all, susceptible and impressionable at this stage in life. Just look at child abuse. Yeah, it's pretty obvious that it's wrong, but the kid's been taught that it's ok, so a lot of child abuse cases go unreported.

Likewise, with relationships...

[Gaelbert]

I wish to ask a question.

Supposedly, the kids who read these books should know that abusive relationships are wrong and such.

But how do kids know what's wrong with a relationship? They don't have experience in relationships first hand (at least not much experience) so how do they know what's healthy or not in a relationship?

Kids, as far as I can tell learn things from three main sources.

1. Parents
2. Peers
3. The Media

I submit that if the Media and their Peers spread one message, the impression will be made and the lesson learned.

Kids are, after all, susceptible and impressionable at this stage in life. Just look at child abuse. Yeah, it's pretty obvious that it's wrong, but the kid's been taught that it's ok, so a lot of child abuse cases go unreported.

Likewise, with relationships...

The unfortunate part is, at least where I live, the media has gotten into the "peers." And brainwashed them and so on and so forth.

[Innis Cabal]

The unfortunate part is, at least where I live, the media has gotten into the "peers." And brainwashed them and so on and so forth.

How is that...unfortunate? I mean...you sound...surprised. Thats the point of the media.

[warty goblin]

How is that...unfortunate? I mean...you sound...surprised. Thats the point of the media.

Something can be unfortunate but not surprising. My alarm clock going off every gorram morning comes to mind, although being surprised by media indoctrination is rather like me being surprised when the damn thing does wake me up, since I am fully aware I personally set it the night before.

[Gaelbert]

How is that...unfortunate? I mean...you sound...surprised. Thats the point of the media.

No, the unfortunate part is what exactly they're being brainwashed. They all have blinders on, but none of this surprises me.

[Mewtarthio]

That essay inspired me some years back to write a BtVS fanfic featuring Xander dealing with the side effects of a relationship with Buffy:

That always bugged me, actually. I guess you could argue that Riley has military training on his side (in the generic resilience sense, not in the "Our elite troops have been trained to have sex with the most superhumanly powerful women on the planet!" sense), but she had that ill-advised tryst with Parker and didn't leave him any worse for the wear, and it's not like Faith left a trail of corpses wherever she went (not from the sex, anyway).

Wow, that was off-topic. Why am I even reading this thread? I've never read the novels nor seen the movie. My fifteen-year-old sister said it was campy...

[warty goblin]

That always bugged me, actually. I guess you could argue that Riley has military training on his side (in the generic resilience sense, not in the "Our elite troops have been trained to have sex with the most superhumanly powerful women on the planet!" sense), but she had that ill-advised tryst with Parker and didn't leave him any worse for the wear, and it's not like Faith left a trail of corpses wherever she went (not from the sex, anyway).

Wow, that was off-topic. Why am I even reading this thread? I've never read the novels nor seen the movie. My fifteen-year-old sister said it was campy...

It's possible that aside from being ultra strong and having insane reaction times, Slayers are more sensitive in other (dare I say) areas as well...

This would usually be the point of an inappropriate joke where one says "yeah, I totally went there," but I think for reasons of health I shall abstain.

cookie for whoever finds the most puns in that.

[Gaelbert]

It's possible that aside from being ultra strong and having insane reaction times, Slayers are more sensitive in other (dare I say) areas as well...

This would usually be the point of an inappropriate joke where one says "yeah, I totally went there," but I think for reasons of health I shall abstain.

cookie for whoever finds the most puns in that.

"Went there" also might count, but I usually over-analyze words and phrases to find inappropriate remarks.

[Innis Cabal]

Something can be unfortunate but not surprising. My alarm clock going off every gorram morning comes to mind, although being surprised by media indoctrination is rather like me being surprised when the damn thing does wake me up, since I am fully aware I personally set it the night before.

Well...that was the point. Its shouldn't be unfortunate that a media outlet is doing its job...its what the media is spewing out that should be unfortunate. And...i'd say its more...depressing....rather then unfortunate.

[Sequinox]

I saw it with my girlfriend, among other people, and went in expecting it to be lousy (everyone did, actually). I was surprised. It was good enough to convince me to read the book once I finish The Stand.

[warty goblin]

"Went there" also might count, but I usually over-analyze words and phrases to find inappropriate remarks.

Close. Went there definitely counts.'More sensitive in other areas' is also one, as in 'areas of expertise' and areas of you know exactly what I mean by areas. I'd honestly missed point though.

[Gaelbert]

Close. Went there definitely counts.'More sensitive in other areas' is also one, as in 'areas of expertise' and areas of you know exactly what I mean by areas. I'd honestly missed point though.

Oh. I thought the challenge only referred to:
"This would usually be the point of an inappropriate joke where one says "yeah, I totally went there," but I think for reasons of health I shall abstain."

But I probably wouldn't have mentioned many of the ones from the first part. If they're too obvious I don't consider them puns.

[warty goblin]

Oh. I thought the challenge only referred to:
"This would usually be the point of an inappropriate joke where one says "yeah, I totally went there," but I think for reasons of health I shall abstain."

But I probably wouldn't have mentioned many of the ones from the first part. If they're too obvious I don't consider them puns.

That's actually why I used the italics on areas, since I thought it made the sexual connotation even more obvious, and so distract from the other connotation, making it more of a stealth pun.

[RPGuru1331]

That always bugged me, actually. I guess you could argue that Riley has military training on his side (in the generic resilience sense, not in the "Our elite troops have been trained to have sex with the most superhumanly powerful women on the planet!" sense), but she had that ill-advised tryst with Parker and didn't leave him any worse for the wear, and it's not like Faith left a trail of corpses wherever she went (not from the sex, anyway).

Well, Faith broke Xander, but that was more the BDSM then a 'necessary' byproduct of the sex.

And you're here because you're masochistic.

[Primal Fury]

Guess I'll throw in my eight cents. Bella had the personality (and brain) of a decorative autum squash. Edward was creepy as all crap. I even asked a few female friends about this. They said if they caught someone they didn't know watching them in their sleep, they would shoot them in the face, regardless of their attractiveness. They didn't even say enough about Edward's "family" for me to care. But I hated Alice. "I'll see you later." "You won't hurt her." That is incredibly annoying. I REALLY wish they went more in depth with the whole werewolf thing, but honestly, the author screwed up the vampire mythology so bad for me, it wouldn't matter anyway. Sparkling. Really? REALLY??? As side note, I'm hoping Freeborn will be awesome. Bad camera work, bad dialogue (though I suppose that's the authors fault), bad special effects.

The romance was basically this:
Bella: I like you.
Edward: Go away.
Bella: No, I like you.
Edward: Okay. I like you too.

But then again, I'm not one for romance. The only romance movie I ever liked was The Fountain, which was friggin awesome. And as for the whole Mary Sue thing... I do know a little about the book, and it seems that Edward is the Mary Sue, or Marty Stu if you will. Bella just seemed more like the "unimportant obligatory love interest", but like I said earlier, I only know a little about the books, so feel free to correct me.

And they probably could have found a better looking girl to play Bella.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Guess I'll throw in my eight cents. Bella had the personality (and brain) of a decorative autum squash. Edward was creepy as all crap. I even asked a few female friends about this. They said if they caught someone they didn't know watching them in their sleep, they would shoot them in the face, regardless of their attractiveness. They didn't even say enough about Edward's "family" for me to care. But I hated Alice. "I'll see you later." "You won't hurt her." That is incredibly annoying. I REALLY wish they went more in depth with the whole werewolf thing, but honestly, the author screwed up the vampire mythology so bad for me, it wouldn't matter anyway. Sparkling. Really? REALLY??? As side note, I'm hoping Freeborn will be awesome. Bad camera work, bad dialogue (though I suppose that's the authors fault), bad special effects.

The romance was basically this:
Bella: I like you.
Edward: Go away.
Bella: No, I like you.
Edward: Okay. I like you too.

But then again, I'm not one for romance. The only romance movie I ever liked was The Fountain, which was friggin awesome. And as for the whole Mary Sue thing... I do know a little about the book, and it seems that Edward is the Mary Sue, or Marty Stu if you will. Bella just seemed more like the "unimportant obligatory love interest", but like I said earlier, I only know a little about the books, so feel free to correct me.

And they probably could have found a better looking girl to play Bella.

I loved Alice. Before reading Midnight Son, her and Jasper were the only characters (aside from Rose, who was a complete betch) with any kind of personality..
Also, your summary of the romance was wrong. It was
Bella: You're pretty
Edward: Mmm, you're pretty bland, but you smell so finger-licken' good, I wanna nom you. ::glares:: Why must you make life hard for me?
Bella: You're pretty. But scary. Kthnxbai.
Edward: No wait!
Bella: K
Edward: Go awayyyy
Bella: K...
And so on and so on, until the mutual, way too fast romance.
Edward becomes more of an interesting character( read: darker, and actually fitting of something that consumes the blood of the living), again, in Midnight Son, but we'll never get to see the finished version of that, unfortunately.

On another note, I thought Bella's actress was appropriate, as she wasn't supposed to be drop dead gorgeous.
Er. Yeah.

[Tichrondrius]

On the other hand, Edward's actor wasn't attractive enough.

[warty goblin]

That always bugged me, actually. I guess you could argue that Riley has military training on his side (in the generic resilience sense, not in the "Our elite troops have been trained to have sex with the most superhumanly powerful women on the planet!" sense), but she had that ill-advised tryst with Parker and didn't leave him any worse for the wear, and it's not like Faith left a trail of corpses wherever she went (not from the sex, anyway).

Wow, that was off-topic. Why am I even reading this thread? I've never read the novels nor seen the movie. My fifteen-year-old sister said it was campy...

Although if they were, I'd imagine they'd have no trouble making recruitment. The U.S. Army: Go to California, meet attractive people, and have sex with them.

Insert stiff upper lip comment here. Also possibly something about standing to attention.

edit: Got it.

Sergeant: OK son, I need you to go into that room and pacify.

Soldier: But sir, she's left the last five men unable to walk!

Sergeant: None of that talk now! You're in the army boy! Now I want you to stand to attention, show a stiff upper lip, go in that room and perform your duty in service to your country!

[nothingclever]

I dunno, he still keeps on directing those godawful films of his. He has to have some kind of fanbase, yeah? (or maybe he just can't take a hint)
Also, in my experience, there is a group of fangirls for EVERYTHING on the earth. EVERYTHING. If it exists, it has fangirls.

There are certain laws in his country that allow him to make garbage films and still get a profit even if they fail horribly.

[RPGuru1331]

There are certain laws in his country that allow him to make garbage films and still get a profit even if they fail horribly.

I thought they'd plugged those loopholes.

[thegurullamen]

I thought they'd plugged those loopholes.

Yup, just recently. It's why he went from a couple-a-million-dollar "high-profile" VG movies to 10,000 dollar indy films that, if there's a decent deity in charge of this universe, get sabotaged by teenagers and outraged film fans every day.

[Verruckt]

I'm not sure why this came to mind but it should give you an idea of how twisted and byzantine my neural pathways are. When I went and saw the movie with my girlfriendthe scene where it was revealed that Sparklevanian could read minds came up I muttered "meat****er" under my breath. That earned me a punch in the arm:smallyuk:

[WhiteKnight777]

"Now you're just being googlymoogly."


Was I being a smart alec? Of course I was. My underlying point is just that that particular scene and your reaction to it seem, to me, to have some unfortunate connotations regarding spousal abuse. That's about it.

Basically, Yulian said it better than I already...


We're just being more civil about it and pointing out elements that, in this day and age, could be actively harmful to the developing mind of a young, female fan. I've been very specific about it as well. That sort of behavior is exactly what you can see in an abusive relationship to a degree that is actually quite chilling. The controlling of her social life, her ability to excuse personal injury...please go look up the signs of an abusive relationship then go back and map them to the books.

Also, I'd just watched an episode of Law & Order: SVU involving spousal abuse, so that probably had something to do with it.

(Not to say that Law & Order is necessarily an accurate description of spousal abuse, merely that the subject was on my mind at the time.)


No, the unfortunate part is what exactly they're being brainwashed. They all have blinders on, but none of this surprises me.

Perhaps I missed it, but how exactly do you feel the media is 'brainwashing'? that's a fairly extreme term, denoting a concerted and, above all, pervasive attempt to imbue people with certain thoughts or thought-patterns. I'm not sure any individual media agency in this country (the United States) has the exclusivity and power to 'brainwash' anyone.

[Coidzor]

On the off chance this hasn't been mentioned yet...

NSFW http://stoney321.livejournal.com/317176.html

[Lord Seth]

Don't know if anyone's posted it yet, but I thought Chester A. Bum's opinion (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/bum-reviews/2741-twilight) was pretty funny.

(site is currently down but when it's up the link should work)

[Tichrondrius]

Was I being a smart alec? Of course I was. My underlying point is just that that particular scene and your reaction to it seem, to me, to have some unfortunate connotations regarding spousal abuse. That's about it.

eilandesq said it better then I could. Have you read the scene?

[RabbitHoleLost]

eilandesq said it better then I could. Have you read the scene?

Agreed. While I'm the first to admit Edward is creepy possessive, the bruising of Bella during their first sexual encounter was not spousal abuse.
Take into account that, apparantly, Edward is at such an incredible power level that, when touching Bella, he has to concentrate on not hurting her.
As ridiculous as that sounds, that's how it is in the books. While engaging in sexual activities, one often loses self control.
Hence, he held her a little too tightly for a human, touched her a little too hard.
It wasn't intentional, and he didn't have any malicious intent. He didn't even notice he had done it til later, and then refused to interact with Bella in such a manner again...
Until she manipulated him into it >>

Edit: Wait, am I getting my arguments mixed up again? Was this the spousal abuse argument?

[WhiteKnight777]

eilandesq said it better then I could. Have you read the scene?

He compared it to a satirical essay spiritually akin to the discussion in Mallrats. In my humble opinion, the comparison breaks down because Niven's essay plainly doesn't take itself seriously, which the book's scene certainly does.

To wit, Larry Niven's essay isn't attempting to portray a relationship between two people - it's literally a discussion of the mechanics of Superman impregnating Lois Lane.

EDIT:


Edit: Wait, am I getting my arguments mixed up again? Was this the spousal abuse argument?

Not saying it was an actual incident of spousal abuse - just that the way the character justifies the injuries has unfortunate implications to my way of reading...

[Raistlin1040]

Agreed. While I'm the first to admit Edward is creepy possessive, the bruising of Bella during their first sexual encounter was not spousal abuse.
Take into account that, apparantly, Edward is at such an incredible power level that, when touching Bella, he has to concentrate on not hurting her.
As ridiculous as that sounds, that's how it is in the books. While engaging in sexual activities, one often loses self control.
Hence, he held her a little too tightly for a human, touched her a little too hard.
It wasn't intentional, and he didn't have any malicious intent. He didn't even notice he had done it til later, and then refused to interact with Bella in such a manner again...
Until she manipulated him into it >>

Crazy nympho masochists, gettin' it on with vampires. What is the world coming to these days?

But I agree, there's a difference between a ridiculously strong guy, like Edward who could snap his wife like a twig, accidentally hurting her during sex (fairly mildly, given his strength), and some drunk guy punching his wife in the face. BIIIIIIIIIIG difference.

[Tichrondrius]

Agreed. While I'm the first to admit Edward is creepy possessive, the bruising of Bella during their first sexual encounter was not spousal abuse.
Take into account that, apparantly, Edward is at such an incredible power level that, when touching Bella, he has to concentrate on not hurting her.
As ridiculous as that sounds, that's how it is in the books. While engaging in sexual activities, one often loses self control.
Hence, he held her a little too tightly for a human, touched her a little too hard.
It wasn't intentional, and he didn't have any malicious intent. He didn't even notice he had done it til later, and then refused to interact with Bella in such a manner again...
Until she manipulated him into it >>

Edit: Wait, am I getting my arguments mixed up again? Was this the spousal abuse argument?

Yes, this is the spousal abuse argument. And while Edward does display very very creepy tendencies... the sexual bruising isn't one of them.


He compared it to a satirical essay spiritually akin to the discussion in Mallrats. In my humble opinion, the comparison breaks down because Niven's essay plainly doesn't take itself seriously, which the book's scene certainly does.

To wit, Larry Niven's essay isn't attempting to portray a relationship between two people - it's literally a discussion of the mechanics of Superman impregnating Lois Lane.

I actually meant the sex scene in Breaking Dawn as I had forgotten if you were talking about what you'd heard or if you'd actually read it. But you answered that question anyway, so its all peachy.

[Stupendous_Man]

As ridiculous as that sounds, that's how it is in the books. While engaging in sexual activities, one often loses self control.

In bed. :smalltongue:

[-Baldur-]

Ed does have extremely creepy tendancies (Well...I uh, just thought i'd follow you and...y'know, I barely know you but thought I should shadow you a little, just in case, yeah?).

Admittedly, Ed is a die hard romantic, and girls love him, but admit it. If any NORMAL WORLD human male walked up and told a girl that he'd been creeping in her shadow "just in case" he would be welcoming the mace and a call to the police.

Though he is cool.

[Setra]

I have not seen it, though my sister has.

According to her the movie was pretty bad and unfaithful to the books.

[Ozymandias]

Many of history and fiction's greatest lovers have been mean, crude, or downright creepy. Take Romeo, for instance, who is a dyed-in-the-flesh pedophile. Or even, say, Darcy, who is a tremendous **** to everybody most of the time and remains, throughout, highly arrogant.

From what I've heard, the books are still tripe, but it's not fundamentally for that reason.

[RPGuru1331]

Many of history and fiction's greatest lovers have been mean, crude, or downright creepy. Take Romeo, for instance, who is a dyed-in-the-flesh pedophile. Or even, say, Darcy, who is a tremendous **** to everybody most of the time and remains, throughout, highly arrogant.

From what I've heard, the books are still tripe, but it's not fundamentally for that reason.

In Romeo's defense, that actu al ly was the standard of the time. Darcy obviously, isn't standard, I'd like to think though.

[TheDeeMan]

I have to admit that I haven't seen Twilight, and I don't plan to. Except for True Blood, which I enjoyed, I'm sick to death of the whole vampire romance chick-lit thing.

Dee

[Dervag]

In Romeo's defense, that actu al ly was the standard of the time. Darcy obviously, isn't standard, I'd like to think though.I know nothing of Darcy and have no intention of finding out, but as for Romeo...

was Romeo really that much older than Juliet? I mean, if Romeo is seventeen and Juliet is fifteen or something like that, then Romeo isn't really being a pedophile in any reasonable sense of the word.

Less damning criticisms might apply to him, but not "pedophile."

[Cristo Meyers]

I know nothing of Darcy and have no intention of finding out, but as for Romeo...

was Romeo really that much older than Juliet? I mean, if Romeo is seventeen and Juliet is fifteen or something like that, then Romeo isn't really being a pedophile in any reasonable sense of the word.

Less damning criticisms might apply to him, but not "pedophile."

I think it's closer to 14 and 12...

[Yulian]

Yeah. Romeo and Juliet were both teenagers. I dunno where someone got the pedo idea from, but it's incorrect.

Again I will point out, the bruising and excuses wouldn't be so bad if everything else were not also present.

It's just that it's already heaped onto a possessive, jealous, creepy stalker-type. But he's hot, so that's all okay.

I dunno, I find that excruciatingly insulting to women in general. The notion that behavior that would, at the very best, be termed "sexual harrassment" or "stalking" is suddenly "romantic" so long as the one doing is is attractive enough.

Seriously, "He can't help it because of his superhuman strength." is uncomfortably close to "Oh, he just gets mad, sometimes." If you have a "condition" that presents an actual, physical danger to someone you care about, then deliberately exposing them to it, even if they ask you to (and again, abused women willingly stay with abusive men a frighteningly high proportion of the time) makes you a bad and abusive person.

Honestly, the logical thing to have done would have been to embrace her first. Then she'd be physically safe. But he didn't. That's a conscious choice. Meant or not, Meyers is sending a message, here.

- Yulian

[Gamiress]

If he'd embraced her, she would have been sitting in his lap, and then it wouldn't be Sex In The Missionary Position For The Purposes of Procreation! Which everyone knows is bad and evil, of course.

[Em Blackleaf]

I read the books. And C'mon! Did anyone else see Jasper's freaking expression the whole entire movie? We know he's strained, but he's not supposed to look like an idiot. Rosalie was not as gorgeous as she should have been. Every vampire was showing their emotions, which they didn't ever do once in the book, they're supposed to be statues. Edward was too vulnerable and whiny. One moment, Edward's like, "I don't want you to love me, wahhhhh" and the next moment He's got his arm around Bella. :smallconfused: Why were the Cullens in Jacob's legend? That's supposed to be centuries ago, and Rosalie was in it. She's only like, 70 years old. And Edward is about one century old. Bella never ever ever ever calls her mom in the book, but she emails her. She called her in the movie and never emailed her. Bella was never supposed to see Edward in her room. Edward looked like spider monkey when he climbed the tree, and he never climbed a tree in the book. And Bella never cooked a thing for charlie in the movie! The book makes a huge point about how Bella cooks for him! James cocked his head all weird all the time. They never made a point about vampire eyes in the movie, like they should've. Had I made the movie, it would've been so much better.

Seriously, though, what was with Jasper?

This movie SUCKED (no pun intended). But I had a free movie ticket, so it doesn't piss me off too much.

However, Emmet was perfect, Esme was good, Carlisle was great. Charlie was different than I had imagined, but he was okay. Jacob was actually the best character. Then again, I have always been partial to Jacob.

Okay, I'm done now. :smalltongue:

[Collin152]

I've decided I will produce a better version myself. With lower budget and better results, I tell you what!
But no sparklysparkly. Unless I can find cosmetics that'll do it. I'm just not gunna try digital sparklysparkly.

[Raistlin1040]

I read the books. And C'mon! Did anyone else see Jasper's freaking expression the whole entire movie? We know he's strained, but he's not supposed to look like an idiot. Rosalie was not as gorgeous as she should have been. Every vampire was showing their emotions, which they didn't ever do once in the book, they're supposed to be statues. Edward was too vulnerable and whiny. One moment, Edward's like, "I don't want you to love me, wahhhhh" and the next moment He's got his arm around Bella. :smallconfused: Why were the Cullens in Jacob's legend? That's supposed to be centuries ago, and Rosalie was in it. She's only like, 70 years old. And Edward is about one century old. Bella never ever ever ever calls her mom in the book, but she emails her. She called her in the movie and never emailed her. Bella was never supposed to see Edward in her room. Edward looked like spider monkey when he climbed the tree, and he never climbed a tree in the book. And Bella never cooked a thing for charlie in the movie! The book makes a huge point about how Bella cooks for him! James cocked his head all weird all the time. They never made a point about vampire eyes in the movie, like they should've. Had I made the movie, it would've been so much better.

Seriously, though, what was with Jasper?

This movie SUCKED (no pun intended). But I had a free movie ticket, so it doesn't piss me off too much.

However, Emmet was perfect, Esme was good, Carlisle was great. Charlie was different than I had imagined, but he was okay. Jacob was actually the best character. Then again, I have always been partial to Jacob.

Okay, I'm done now. :smalltongue:
Oh Em, darling, I hope this was all written tongue in cheek. Though yes, Jacob is the best character.

[Gamiress]

I do have to give a lot of props to Cedric (I can never remember the actor's name) for his performance. He, by his own admission, hates the character Edward, and portrayed him as creepy, unstable and domineering on purpose.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Did anyone else see Jasper's freaking expression the whole entire movie?

My friend said it seemed like the actor for Jasper decided to look like Edward Scissorhands through the whole movie.
And, she was right. The facial expression is EXACTLY the same o.o

[Raistlin1040]

My friend said it seemed like the actor for Jasper decided to look like Edward Scissorhands through the whole movie.
And, she was right. The facial expression is EXACTLY the same o.o
To be fair, Johnny Depp was BADASS in that movie.

[RabbitHoleLost]

To be fair, Johnny Depp was BADASS in that movie.

Well, yes. Great movie. Made me cry.
However, Jasper should not have been imitating him =P

[dralasite]

But I agree, there's a difference between a ridiculously strong guy, like Edward who could snap his wife like a twig, accidentally hurting her during sex (fairly mildly, given his strength), and some drunk guy punching his wife in the face. BIIIIIIIIIIG difference.

Tragically, for those people involved, it's not so far away. Abused spoused often figure that it's their own fault for creating the situation where their husband "accidentally" hit them.
In the case of these abuse, it's never his (in the case of an abusive husband) fault, there is always a really good excuse: the husband was drunk, she said something that upset him and he accidentally hit her in the face, he just lost control for a second... Of course he still loves her very very much and will buy her flowers to apologize...

Should we assume that someone who is ridiculously strong is OK to bruise his grirlfriend during sex, just because he "lost control"? Damn, you could give me razor blades instead of fingers and I would still be able to make love to someone without scratching her once. (And if I did, it wouldn't be HER fault for being made of fragile flesh...).

It's creepy as hell that tween girls think that this is sooo romantic. :smalleek:

[Yulian]

It's creepy as hell that tween girls think that this is sooo romantic. :smalleek:

Yeah, this is pretty much precisely my point. Thank you for helping back it up. It's sort of unsettling that this is the current "big thing" for tween girls in pop culture. This deeply unhealthy model of a relationship. Fantasy is obviously all well and good, but formative-years fantasy that sends such a message? Little less so.

It's sort of "as long as he's hot enough, all behavior gets a pass". Great message in a culture that still has problems with sneakily buried sexism such as the notion that Girls Gone Wild is "liberating". I am very, very, very far from prudish (done and been to some things I likely can't mention on the board), but the underlying message of passivity and victimhood is not really one I want to see young girls getting.

- Yulian

[RabbitHoleLost]

Tragically, for those people involved, it's not so far away. Abused spoused often figure that it's their own fault for creating the situation where their husband "accidentally" hit them.
In the case of these abuse, it's never his (in the case of an abusive husband) fault, there is always a really good excuse: the husband was drunk, she said something that upset him and he accidentally hit her in the face, he just lost control for a second... Of course he still loves her very very much and will buy her flowers to apologize...

Should we assume that someone who is ridiculously strong is OK to bruise his grirlfriend during sex, just because he "lost control"? Damn, you could give me razor blades instead of fingers and I would still be able to make love to someone without scratching her once. (And if I did, it wouldn't be HER fault for being made of fragile flesh...).

It's creepy as hell that tween girls think that this is sooo romantic. :smalleek:

There's still a difference, because Edward doesn't blame it on Bella's weakness. He beats the crap out of himself and essentially tells her "No more sexxing kthnx"
There's enough in the series to lampoon without reaching for the "physical abuse" tidbit. Emotional abuse, yes. Not physical.
And, besides, bruising during sex typically isn't a bad thing, as long as its consensual...which it was. She didn't even seem to notice or care >>

[dralasite]

Yeah, this is pretty much precisely my point. Thank you for helping back it up. It's sort of unsettling that this is the current "big thing" for tween girls in pop culture. This deeply unhealthy model of a relationship. Fantasy is obviously all well and good, but formative-years fantasy that sends such a message? Little less so.

It's sort of "as long as he's hot enough, all behavior gets a pass". Great message in a culture that still has problems with sneakily buried sexism such as the notion that Girls Gone Wild is "liberating". I am very, very, very far from prudish (done and been to some things I likely can't mention on the board), but the underlying message of passivity and victimhood is not really one I want to see young girls getting.

- YulianUnfortunately, it's not new at all, Andrew is just yet another "dangerous mysterious stranger" or "bad boy" so adored by young tweens (and older women as well) of countless generations.
These characters apparently gets a pass for behaviors that normal people would get scolded for (or jailed).

When I look at the posters for that film, Andrew looks like a caricature : "look at me! I'm mysterious! And dangerous! And a bishonen!". He mostly looks like a dumbed down and humour-less version of Angel...

(concerning him spying on her while she sleeps, it would have been a lot less romantic if she did fart or drool or gnash teeth in her sleep! Remember people, don't touch yourself in your bed, a vampire stalker might be watching you! (sorry, sorry...) )

[Skippy]

My two cents about this movie:

Alice is hawt
Supermassive Black Hole is an awesome piece of music, and the scene where it's played (The baseball game) is the only cool part of the movie
Alice is hawt
Alice is hawt
Alice is hawt

[MeatShield#236]

Ok, I have not seen the movie nor read the books nor taken a survey of some sort, so this is just pure speculation. (And please tell me if I'm wrong, I mean no offence to anyone.)
Girls like Edward because he is a dark and mysterious stranger, overlooking the fact that he has all the traits of an obsessed stalker.* I mean, if someone was spying on me while I was in bed, I would (no matter how hot they are) grab the nearest heavy, blunt object and beat the crap out of them, especally if they claimed they were shadowing me.
But I guess if people don't start stalking their love interests and don't date people who do, it shouldn't be a problem. Guys like hot girls, girls like hot guys, it's a fact. Once you accept that, life becomes much easier.

[Collin152]

Guys like hot girls, girls like hot guys, it's a fact.

Point of order: I don't. Hot guys, though.


Once you accept that, life becomes much easier.
Not for the ones who aren't hot.

[WitchSlayer]

I think we're all forgetting the best part of the movie: Charlie.
Bella's dad. I would take all the scenes with him out of the movie and make my own, separate movie, and it would be awesome. His 'stache alone overpowers the horribleness of the movie.

[bluewind95]

To be fair, I've seen WAY worse in movies. The movie wasn't THAT bad. I am sure some scenes that I found hilarious weren't really supposed to be hilarious, but rather... I dunno, dramatic or something.

[Collin152]

To be fair, I've seen WAY worse in movies. The movie wasn't THAT bad. I am sure some scenes that I found hilarious weren't really supposed to be hilarious, but rather... I dunno, dramatic or something.

It's called Narm and Melodrama, respectively. That is, it's funny, was supposed to be serious, Narm. The scenes that they meant to be serious weren't dramatic, they were melodramatic, and man they really hit it with that melodrama hammer over and over and over and over again...

But yeah, Charlie-stache and shotgun-cocking was a real showstealer.

[Alleine]

I think we're all forgetting the best part of the movie: Charlie.
Bella's dad. I would take all the scenes with him out of the movie and make my own, separate movie, and it would be awesome. His 'stache alone overpowers the horribleness of the movie.

This +1

I personally found the movie to be hilarious. Too bad it was supposed to be a romance movie, right?

One of the worst parts that I hated with a passion though:
"Look at me in the light, then you'll see I'm a MONSTER!" *sparklesparkle*
"Hey you sparkle, that's pretty!"
"No I'm a MOOOONSTERRRRRR!!!" *Sparkle*

I mean, seriously?

[Krytha]

I just saw Twilight and yeah, some parts were pretty silly, but wasn't that what you were expecting? It's a teenage girl fantasy movie. Kids do dumb things. Kids say dumb things. Kids are dumb things. I probably would've liked the dialogue to be better, but if it's straight from the book, then that is the book's fault and not the movie's.

"What if I'm... the bad guy..." was probably one of my least favorite lines. There are a billion ways to make that one come across better than it did. The Edward actor didn't seem like a good fit for the role but that is just personal taste.

Well, I guess it was as good as one could imagine for a book like Twilight...

[Moonshadow]

I haven't seen it, or read the books, nor will I ever want to. I mean, just reading this topic makes me want to put 4 inchs nails up my nose, and proceed to headdesk :smallsigh:

[Mauve Shirt]

I really should read the first book if I'm going to mock it, but I don't want to. My sister's seen the movie. She said the special effects were worse than those in the Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers movie that came out in 1995.

[RabbitHoleLost]

I really should read the first book if I'm going to mock it, but I don't want to. My sister's seen the movie. She said the special effects were worse than those in the Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers movie that came out in 1995.
Oh yeah.
Considering Twilight is supposedly the holy book of women (I would say teenaged girls, but the mere existance of the term TwiMom makes that point for me), you'd think they'd have been given a bigger budget....

[Hadrian_Emrys]

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn258/pretty-entrails/Anti-Twilight/Bellasue2.jpg

Twilight Exposed Part 1
I intend to take this point by point since there is a lot I have to say on the subject.


I have a sometimes obsessive personality. I can admit the character flaw, and I manage to work around it... -most of the time. As of late, this tendency to latch onto a subject has left me afflicted with a compulsion to break this series down and rewrite it myself in a manner that I am NOT offended by. I've read every official shred of official material (including the books and the Midnight Sun snippet) and seen the movie, so if there are any fan girls out there who feel the urge to hit me with the "I'll bet you haven't even read the books, if you did, you'd x." argument again... -I know the material, better than you ever will. I, like many, am not impressed. I will now attempt to illustrate why:

1: The protagonist is a self-insert Mary Sue of fan-fic proportions:

Exhibit 1a (right side of image):

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/bitowurd/rocketscience2.jpg
Exhibit 1b (the author's quote on Bella's appearance:
"I left out a detailed description of Bella in the book so that the reader could more easily step into her shoes. However, so many people have asked this question, I have decided to tell you what she looks like to me. But I want to stress, Bella's looks are open to interpretation.

In my head, Bella is very fair-skinned, with long, straight, dark brown hair and chocolate brown eyes. Her face is heart-shaped—a wide forehead with a widow's peak, large, wide-spaced eyes, prominent cheekbones, and then a thin nose and a narrow jaw with a pointed chin. Her lips are a little out of proportion, a bit too full for her jaw line. Her eyebrows are darker than her hair and more straight than they are arched. She's five foot four inches tall, slender but not at all muscular, and weighs about 115 pounds. She has stubby fingernails because she has a nervous habit of biting them. And there's your very detailed description."


1.5: Now what makes the protagonist a "Mary Sue" (MS for short)? First, let us define the term. This is the first paragraph on the subject on wiki, it'll do as a loose outline of the term's meaning:

(Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot and is particularly characterized by overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors and/or readers. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".)

Already this "Bella" character has a MS name*, has been shown to be a self-insert, as well as serving as a tool of wish fulfillment for both the author and the reader. We haven't even gotten started on the content of the story yet!

*According to the SSA (Social Security Administration) Isabella is ranked 170 on the list of popular female names in the 90s with 18,720 girls registered in the states with that name, putting the percentage of females in that age bracket with that name at 0.0954%. Unless I screwed up my math, that would mean that only one out of every ten thousand females in that age group have that name. Not exactly common now is it? With a pretentious name meaning like "Beautiful Swan" (leading this reader to assume this was originally intended to be an ugly duckling themed tale) it's not exactly difficult to point accusatory fingers.

Forgive the hostile vibe that probably comes across in this post, but the subject gets me riled up. :smallredface:

[Lord_Xeam]

ive never seen it or read the books.. whats all the hype about? whats all the disdain about?
plz leme know

[RabbitHoleLost]

ive never seen it or read the books.. whats all the hype about? whats all the disdain about?
plz leme know

Teenaged girls don't know how to separate fantasy from reality, and get a little too into a mediocre book.
Then comes the people who hate things that are overhyped. And then the bashers.
And then we get huge things like what Hadrian posted, which puts far too much thought into a silly romance for teenaged girls for my liking o.o

[Lord_Xeam]

thx for tha teling i jus joined so its nice to have sombody talk to ya

PS im still evil
PPS just not chaotic

[Hadrian_Emrys]

RHL::smallredface: I'd like to write someday, so understanding what makes pop-lit so popular is rather important. I just happen to have a hyper-protective streak in regards to the well-being of females. I just don't want to see any inexperienced/idealistic females getting caught up in this subject matter, and getting the impression that THAT'S the sort of guy/relationship to aspire towards. It makes me angry, and it's stupid tween fiction. How silly is that? :smallbiggrin:

[Moonshadow]

O_O *stares slack jawed*

So, apparantly after she gets preggers, the baby starts beating the living **** outta her from the inside, so they decide to do a C-Section. Except she's a vampire. Making her skin as hard as diamond, or some crap like that.

So edward decides to BITE HER UTERUS OPEN TO GET DA BABY OUT.


And people actually like this ****?

[RabbitHoleLost]

O_O *stares slack jawed*

So, apparantly after she gets preggers, the baby starts beating the living **** outta her from the inside, so they decide to do a C-Section. Except she's a vampire. Making her skin as hard as diamond, or some crap like that.

So edward decides to BITE HER UTERUS OPEN TO GET DA BABY OUT.


And people actually like this ****?

See, I read the books and I don't remember
Edward biting her uterus open. Also, she wasn't a vampire at the time. I think Carlisle used his bad doctor skills to get in there.
However, all the other crazy **** did actually happen. I could tolerate and even enjoy parts of the series right up until the fourth book.
That thing made me head hurt. It was like Meyers went "EVERYTHING I EVER TOLD YOU WAS A LIE HAHAHAHAHA"

[Hadrian_Emrys]

See, I read the books and I don't remember
Edward biting her uterus open. Also, she wasn't a vampire at the time. I think Carlisle used his bad doctor skills to get in there.
However, all the other crazy **** did actually happen. I could tolerate and even enjoy parts of the series right up until the fourth book.
That thing made me head hurt. It was like Meyers went "EVERYTHING I EVER TOLD YOU WAS A LIE HAHAHAHAHA"



http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn258/pretty-entrails/Anti-Twilight/Twilight_Spoilers_by_kyrn.jpg

If you can stomach it, you'll find special Ed really did gnaw his way into liberating the hell-spawn that shouldn't have been. :smalleek:

[RabbitHoleLost]

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn258/pretty-entrails/Anti-Twilight/Twilight_Spoilers_by_kyrn.jpg

If you can stomach it, you'll find special Ed really did gnaw his way into liberating the hell-spawn that shouldn't have been. :smalleek:


Huh. Maybe it did happen and I just blocked it from my memory.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I don't blame you. I wish I had been able the suppress the memory. :smalleek:

[Coidzor]

It was the Edward = Joseph Smith that sealed my leeriness.

No wait, it was the fact that I was told to read it or die. Yeah. That was it.

RHL: It's a very morbidly fascinating phenomenon, and, with the fandom such as it is... Can you really blame her for wanting to kick the anthill?

Also, I think it was like the vampire-demon-human hybrid spawn had made a cocoon after eating her uterus and was foraying from its cocoon to eat parts of her.

[Collin152]

Hadrian, ditto on the "What makes the pop-lit pop?" thing. That's why Iread those 12 leaked chapters of Midnight Sun; to see popular literature as it is written before the editing process, so that I can extract the elements people will buy, and mix in the stuff people won't cringe at.
It kinda worked.
Mostly I just felt like there was a lot of handwaving about Edward's creepiness. Nevermind that those creepy personlaity traits were pretty much the only way I related to the guy.

[Coidzor]

Hadrian, ditto on the "What makes the pop-lit pop?" thing. That's why Iread those 12 leaked chapters of Midnight Sun; to see popular literature as it is written before the editing process, so that I can extract the elements people will buy, and mix in the stuff people won't cringe at.
It kinda worked.
Mostly I just felt like there was a lot of handwaving about Edward's creepiness. Nevermind that those creepy personlaity traits were pretty much the only way I related to the guy.

Except you weren't supposed to relate to him, you were supposed to worship him as perfection of mankind.

[RabbitHoleLost]

Hadrian, ditto on the "What makes the pop-lit pop?" thing. That's why Iread those 12 leaked chapters of Midnight Sun; to see popular literature as it is written before the editing process, so that I can extract the elements people will buy, and mix in the stuff people won't cringe at.
It kinda worked.
Mostly I just felt like there was a lot of handwaving about Edward's creepiness. Nevermind that those creepy personlaity traits were pretty much the only way I related to the guy.
I actually really enjoyed what she did of Midnight Son.
I pretty much lawled at the three pages of him deciding how best to kill everyone else in the room so he could drink her sweet, sweet life-liquid uninterrupted that first time in class.
Comparing his point of view's to Bella's made it all the greater.

[Collin152]

Except you weren't supposed to relate to him, you were supposed to worship him as perfection of mankind.

No, Midnight Sun, being from his perspective, tones that down. He becomes more... 'human', but by no means a better person. He's a creepy obsessive stalker, just like me, and he admits it.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I'll admit that book 5-ish was the first that I actually liked. It was almost the start of a good story.

[Raistlin1040]

I actually really enjoyed what she did of Midnight Son.
I pretty much lawled at the three pages of him deciding how best to kill everyone else in the room so he could drink her sweet, sweet life-liquid uninterrupted that first time in class.
Comparing his point of view's to Bella's made it all the greater.

Quite. Midnight Son actually made Edward have a bit more depth, as you could see his thought process, instead of seeing it from Bella's perspective, which was basically Edward going from "I'm DANGEROUS! We can't be together" to "I love you, I can't stay away" and back every fifty pages.

[Tichrondrius]

About the Edward biting the baby free thing- she wasn't a vampire at the time, the baby was kinda half-vampire and the sack about the baby had the same hardness as vampire skin, and the only thing that can break vampire skin is vampire teeth or werewolves.

Yeah.

[bluewind95]

But isn't the sack completely part of the mother's body? How was it hard as a vampire. That is plain disturbing. It really seems like the author just made up a random excuse for that to happen. :smalleek: