Archons?

[K2]

Hey, this is just a crazy stupid thought that came to me, and most likely to at least one other person as well. But both Tool and Charlie are attuned to their respective Arken-thingmigBob. Tools lets him control Dwagons. Now Dwagons are a seemingly unique race of beings in Erf that serve who ever holds the hammer, we do not know how they are spawned, nor how much it cost, or even the reason for the different colours. Dwagons are fairly unique, they are flying heavies with large number of moves, all other fling units we have seen are small and light except for warlords.
Warlords and archons. Archons are powerful flying units with spell like abilities that appear to be unique in Erf. My first thought is this; Does the Arken-Dish grant Charlie power over the Arcons in a manner similar to the power that Tool has over the Dwagons?
My second thought follows; Do the Arken items grant the ability to pop unique units as well as the abilities to control them?


Of course that schmuck Ansom does not count 'cause he is not attuned to his arken item.

[Sieggy]

ummm . . . but what kind of creature would be the Arkenpliers corollary? I would think Ansom would at least be aware of whatever that would be and have some around, if only for show.

[DevilDan]

We don't know whether dwagons pop in cities or are a sort of natural resource and that can be tamed. We do know that colors have some correlation to their strength or their powers.

The gwiffons are not what I would call weak. A couple of them would seem to be able to inflict serious damage to a dwagon.

We have speculated on whether the arkendish allows Charlie to create/empower/control the archons, but there's no data to help us determine what sort of units archons are or whether they are popped as other units are.

[K2]

Ansom is not attuned to the pliers, so I don't think they would grant him control of any type of being. and the words dwagons are not written anywhere on the hammer. I don't think that the user would have any idea what type of creature they would e able to control(or even if they will gain control)

My hypothesis does not require any one in erf to know of this control ability. Ofcourse they all know of Tool and his dwagons, but I assumed that Charlie has kept quite about the source of his Archons.

[DevilDan]

My hypothesis does not require any one in erf to know of this control ability. Ofcourse they all know of Tool and his dwagons, but I assumed that Charlie has kept quite about the source of his Archons.

Yeah, but if archons are rare or even unique units or if Charlie has a monopoly (or nearly one) on archons then it is pretty easy for Erflings to guess that the arkendish has something to do with it, especially given that the arkenhammer grants dominion over dwagons.

[dresdor]

I'm willing to bet the pliers are a Croakamancy item. After all, being able to destroy something is a good way to make it obey (i.e. maybe that's why the arkenhammer is able to control dragons, they fear it's power).

[K2]

I'm willing to bet the pliers are a Croakamancy item. After all, being able to destroy something is a good way to make it obey (i.e. maybe that's why the arkenhammer is able to control dragons, they fear it's power).

Thats what I thought at first, but neither the hammer or the dish seem to have any special effect when smacking their apparent respective creatures.

[The Minx]

Thats what I thought at first, but neither the hammer or the dish seem to have any special effect when smacking their apparent respective creatures.

I think that's a case of insufficient information, since we haven't seen the hammer smack dwagons yet.

Nor have we seen the dish smack anything (I doubt it would be useful as a weapon though).

[DevilDan]

I think that's a case of insufficient information, since we haven't seen the hammer smack dwagons yet.

Nor have we seen the dish smack anything (I doubt it would be useful as a weapon though).

Why did you have to let dresdor in on to the fact that we don't have enough data? I was going to take him up on that bet!

[Welf]

I'm willing to bet the pliers are a Croakamancy item. After all, being able to destroy something is a good way to make it obey (i.e. maybe that's why the arkenhammer is able to control dragons, they fear it's power).

I don't think so. Ansom mentioned very early that the dwagons would fight to the dead for Stanley. And Tool himself seems to have warm feelings for the dwagons. That doesn't sound like he forces him with fear to work for him.

[Godskook]

I'm willing to bet the pliers are a Croakamancy item. After all, being able to destroy something is a good way to make it obey (i.e. maybe that's why the arkenhammer is able to control dragons, they fear it's power).

I think that the pliers are more likely healomancy. After all, most games do make the healing class the one that takes out undead like they're target practice.

[DevilDan]

I think that the pliers are more likely healomancy. After all, most games do make the healing class the one that takes out undead like they're target practice.

Iain also mentioned this.


Doesn't Healomancy seem more likely? They destroy the undead. And pliers are often used for fixing things.
Not sure how that'd fit in with Wanda, if at all.

[K2]

Well, we already know of a healing race. The alturistic elves are part of the alliance. just throwing that out their.

[Occasional Sage]

Yeah, but if archons are rare or even unique units or if Charlie has a monopoly (or nearly one) on archons then it is pretty easy for Erflings to guess that the arkendish has something to do with it, especially given that the arkenhammer grants dominion over dwagons.

To be fair, there seems to be a pretty stark difference in the units fielded by each faction. If proprietary units are the norm, there's no reason to necessarily correlate Arkentool attunement with the creation of a special unit type.
That being said: I'm one of those that believe there's a connection, despite the lack of evidence either way.

[DevilDan]

To be fair, there seems to be a pretty stark difference in the units fielded by each faction. If proprietary units are the norm, there's no reason to necessarily correlate Arkentool attunement with the creation of a special unit type.
That being said: I'm one of those that believe there's a connection, despite the lack of evidence either way.

It would all depend on when Charlie became known, when the archons appeared, how unusual the archons are, and on at which point in time it is that people believed that Charlie obtained or became attuned with the arkendish too.

[Occasional Sage]

It would all depend on when Charlie became known, when the archons appeared, how unusual the archons are, and on at which point in time it is that people believed that Charlie obtained or became attuned with the arkendish too.

(sorry about the weird duplicate post)

Hmm, fair point. I hadn't really considered the attunement occurring mid-conflict. But, Stanley found and befriended the Arkenhammer well into the conflict. People have commented on his connection to dwagons, but nobody has attributed it to the 'Hammer. They might just not have said something that's obvious to everybody, but that kind of exposition is expected when there's so much backstory to fill in.

[DevilDan]

But, Stanley found and befriended the Arkenhammer well into the conflict. People have commented on his connection to dwagons, but nobody has attributed it to the 'Hammer. They might just not have said something that's obvious to everybody, but that kind of exposition is expected when there's so much backstory to fill in.

"Stanley's dwagons are his greatest remaining threat. So long as he wields the Arkenhammer, they will defend him to the death."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html

I'm not sure about "well into the conflict." It seems clear that Stanley obtained the Arkenhammer while Saline IV was alive. That would mean that it likely precedes even the creation of the RCC.

[Occasional Sage]

"Stanley's dwagons are his greatest remaining threat. So long as he wields the Arkenhammer, they will defend him to the death."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html

I'm not sure about "well into the conflict." It seems clear that Stanley obtained the Arkenhammer while Saline IV was alive. That would mean that it likely precedes even the creation of the RCC.

Ah. Good memory, you're right.

I say "well into the conflict" because Stanley had risen above his standard piker origins. It seems reasonable to assume that he wasn't one of the first units popped in the war, and there's potentially three previous monarchs of GK (assuming that they didn't start at IV just for the referential value).

The RCC is fairly recent: Ansom/Slately put it together in response to Stanley's claiming of the GK throne. The individual factions within the coalition all have a history prior to joining forces.

[SteveMB]

I say "well into the conflict" because Stanley had risen above his standard piker origins. It seems reasonable to assume that he wasn't one of the first units popped in the war, and there's potentially three previous monarchs of GK (assuming that they didn't start at IV just for the referential value).

We don't know what wars, if any, Saline IV was involved in -- all we really have to go on is the inference that he was probably fighting somebody if he found it worthwhile to invest mucho shmuckero (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0048.html) to promote an infantry unit to warlord. (Also note that, by Sizemore's account (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0087.html), Stanley was promoted to Warlord before finding the Arkenhammer. He would seem to have a lot more going for him that one would suppose from the "Pointy-Haired Boss" impression he gave earlier in the story.)

EDIT: We do know for a fact that Saline IV was fighting with somebody after Stanley found the Arkenhammer; Sizemore specifically mentions Stanley's success at winning battles.

The current war seems (based on Vinny's comments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0034.html)) to be a response to Stanley's actions. (Yes, Ansom's motivations are his own, but I don't think he could have gotten a large coalition, or perhaps even Jetstone, to go to war based on his personal animus against Stanley and what he represents.)

[Occasional Sage]

We don't know what wars, if any, Saline IV was involved in -- all we really have to go on is the inference that he was probably fighting somebody if he found it worthwhile to invest mucho shmuckero (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0048.html) to promote an infantry unit to warlord. (Also note that, by Sizemore's account (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0087.html), Stanley was promoted to Warlord before finding the Arkenhammer. He would seem to have a lot more going for him that one would suppose from the "Pointy-Haired Boss" impression he gave earlier in the story.)

The current war seems (based on Vinny's comments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0034.html)) to be a response to Stanley's actions. (Yes, Ansom's motivations are his own, but I don't think he could have gotten a large coalition, or perhaps even Jetstone, to go to war based on his personal animus against Stanley and what he represents.)

You've said everything I meant, much more adroitly than I managed. Thanks.

[DevilDan]

The point remains: the RCC is putatively a response to Stanley's aggressive military actions and not directly a challenge to Stanley due to the fact that he ascended to the throne through regicide or because of his lowly origins.

[Iain]

It's a great comic, Erfworld, isn't it? There's just so much thought put into everything in it!

A musing with regards to Arkentools all taming creatures - they might, but it might just be the Arkenhammer that does, as there's a good reason for it to do so. Various posters have argued quite convincingly that it's Carnymancy based; this seems likely to be true. One trick you might see at the circus is the taming of lions or other ferocious wild animals...

[Occasional Sage]

The point remains: the RCC is putatively a response to Stanley's aggressive military actions and not directly a challenge to Stanley due to the fact that he ascended to the throne through regicide or because of his lowly origins.

A valid distinction, but tertiary in terms of when the 'Hammer came onstage.

[Godskook]

People have commented on his connection to dwagons, but nobody has attributed it to the 'Hammer.

Sizemore did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0087.html).

[DevilDan]

A valid distinction, but tertiary in terms of when the 'Hammer came onstage.

Wow, I don't even make it to "secondary"...


I say "well into the conflict" because Stanley had risen above his standard piker origins. It seems reasonable to assume that he wasn't one of the first units popped in the war, and there's potentially three previous monarchs of GK (assuming that they didn't start at IV just for the referential value).

The RCC is fairly recent: Ansom/Slately put it together in response to Stanley's claiming of the GK throne. The individual factions within the coalition all have a history prior to joining forces.

My two points in response to this were: the "war" we're seeing know didn't start until after Stanley became overlord, at the earliest, and the RCC was allegedly formed to stop Stanley's expansionist agenda.

[Occasional Sage]

Wow, I don't even make it to "secondary"...


Oh, YOU certainly make first string, no doubt! Yours are some of the (relatively few) posts I read in long threads.



My two points in response to this were: the "war" we're seeing know didn't start until after Stanley became overlord, at the earliest, and the RCC was allegedly formed to stop Stanley's expansionist agenda.

Sure, but all of the parties in the Great Western Conflict knew (or at least knew of) each other previously; my comments about Stanley's rise, the previous Salines, etc., were to point out that there's been a lot of time before the discovery of the 'Hammer for people to see that there were or were not dwagons in the GK line-up, which would let them corrolate the dwagons' appearance with the 'Hammer. Likewise, Charlie/'Dish/Archons connections could well be obvious, given some reasonable-though-not-reliable assumptions.

ETA: I'm agreeing with you, now, that there are some obvious clues to link the Tools and special units, if there is such a link and if things happened in certain sequences. We seem to just be coming at it from different directions.

[Godskook]

Sure, but all of the parties in the Great Western Conflict knew (or at least knew of) each other previously; my comments about Stanley's rise, the previous Salines, etc., were to point out that there's been a lot of time before the discovery of the 'Hammer for people to see that there were or were not dwagons in the GK line-up, which would let them corrolate the dwagons' appearance with the 'Hammer. Likewise, Charlie/'Dish/Archons connections could well be obvious, given some reasonable-though-not-reliable assumptions.

Are you discussing (a)what is general knowledge about the arkenhammer and dwagons in erfworld, or (b)what we know as fact based on being able to see most sides of the story?

If (a), I bow out. I have no clue about the RCC's actual knowledge about the Arkenhammer and Dwagons. Although, they talk as if they understand how it works, in relation to taming dwagons.

If (b), Sizemore makes it pretty clear that it was the Arkenhammer that allowed Stanley to tame the dwagons.

[DevilDan]

Now that I see the archons speaking more corporatese in this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0134.html), the more I think that the original "spells" invoked when fighting the dwagons over the lake were part of some sort of fighting style (or "dance" bonus). That is, the archons were using class-derived attacks rather than invoking spells as casters; this does not mean that they are not casters, as it is possible and even likely that at least one of them is a thinkamancer.

Who knows, really? We don't know how Wanda used the air defenses, what specific magic category was involved, etc. Or take the canned spells; obviously they have difficulty ratings or require some stat or level in the caster employing them, but could some units have special "use magic items" or "read magic scroll" abilities? (That is, could some non-caster units also invoke the air defenses?)

Special abilities can subvert, in theory, even rules that have been clearly spelled out. This occurs all the times in a wide variety of games.

[dr pepper]

As i've mentioned before, right on Page 1, we can see a dragon flying above the Titans, before Erfworld was even created. So dragons are older than anything else and may not even be native to Erf. Perhaps they fly in from another sand table.

[DevilDan]

As i've mentioned before, right on Page 1, we can see a dragon flying above the Titans, before Erfworld was even created. So dragons are older than anything else and may not even be native to Erf. Perhaps they fly in from another sand table.

I hate to nitpick, but we only know that they were there while Erf was being created.