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View Full Version : [3.5] Factotum vs. Beguiler - best Rogue replacement



Thurbane
2008-12-01, 08:47 PM
Just curious on opinions - who makes the better Rogue replacement - Factotum or Beguiler? Or another base class altogether? I'm not talking mix-n-match multiclass/PrC option, but the best single base class to take the role of Rogue in a party.

My gut instinct is Factotum, as they seem to be the best at just about everything, but the Beguiler's casting abiltity is nothing to be sneezed at.

Thurbane
2008-12-01, 08:49 PM
...of course, I suppose Batman Wizard probably takes the cake...

monty
2008-12-01, 08:52 PM
Casting isn't what makes a rogue, and Factotum gets some anyway. I'd go with the Factotum.

Draz74
2008-12-01, 08:53 PM
Nah, Beguiler is a much better trapfinder/skill monkey than Batman Wizard.

Short answer: Beguiler is the more powerful of the two, unless you use boring Font of Inspiration cheese on the Factotum.

monty
2008-12-01, 08:56 PM
I'll admit Beguiler is stronger, but it just doesn't feel as rogue-y to me.

KKL
2008-12-01, 08:57 PM
Definately Beguiler.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-01, 09:07 PM
Both are awesome in their own way. A Beguiler can do the trademark Rogue jobs better(Invis, Knock, Charm Person), Factotem can do anything pretty well as well as being a better Rogue than the Rogue.

Draz74
2008-12-01, 09:10 PM
Both are awesome in their own way. A Beguiler can do the trademark Rogue jobs better(Invis, Knock, Charm Person), Factotem can do anything pretty well as well as being a better Rogue than the Rogue.

Beguiler: Until you run into an AMF, or an NPC who specializes in dispelling, or ...

Factotum: A fun class, I'm really not trying to knock it. But the normal Rogue really outshines it in one specific area: dealing craploads of damage in favorable circumstances. The Factotum really just can't match Sneak Attack (except via cheese); it keeps the Rogue from being completely obsolete compared to the Factotum. But yes, for skills, the Factotum truly outshines the Rogue.

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-01, 09:43 PM
Beguiler: Until you run into an AMF, or an NPC who specializes in dispelling, or ...

Factotum: A fun class, I'm really not trying to knock it. But the normal Rogue really outshines it in one specific area: dealing craploads of damage in favorable circumstances. The Factotum really just can't match Sneak Attack (except via cheese); it keeps the Rogue from being completely obsolete compared to the Factotum. But yes, for skills, the Factotum truly outshines the Rogue.

The Factotum can out damage a rogue without any real effort. Cunning Surge plus Cunning Strike. Hello 90d6 Sneak attack that gets Int to Attack, Int to Damage, and is a touch attack thanks to Wraithstrike.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-01, 10:05 PM
Beguiler: Until you run into an AMF, or an NPC who specializes in dispelling, or ...AMFs are insanely rare in most campaigns because they utterly hose the party, not just the Beguiler. An NPC has to know where to Dispel.
Factotum: A fun class, I'm really not trying to knock it. But the normal Rogue really outshines it in one specific area: dealing craploads of damage in favorable circumstances. The Factotum really just can't match Sneak Attack (except via cheese); it keeps the Rogue from being completely obsolete compared to the Factotum. But yes, for skills, the Factotum truly outshines the Rogue.At level 20 a Rogue deals 10d6+20(55) damage on a SA. A Factotum deals 11(Int)+20(Craven)+xd6 points of damage, as well as casting and everything else to make those SAs more effective. Font of Inspiration means that the Factotum can make that X as high as the situation needs.

ClericofPhwarrr
2008-12-01, 10:09 PM
The Factotum can out damage a rogue without any real effort.

Let me guess, that lack of effort involves being a Grey Elf? And using a certain Dark Chaos Shuffle?

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-01, 10:13 PM
Let me guess, that lack of effort involves being a Grey Elf? And using a certain Dark Chaos Shuffle?

No. Just blowing 10 IP on Cunning Strike and 1 IP on Int to Damage. Grab craven and you are at worst equal. And you can pump Cunning Strike up over 90d6 damage.

ClericofPhwarrr
2008-12-01, 10:20 PM
No. Just blowing 10 IP on Cunning Strike and 1 IP on Int to Damage. Grab craven and you are at worst equal. And you can pump Cunning Strike up over 90d6 damage.

Unless you're doing serious pumping of FoI, blowing through IP like that means that you're equal--once or twice.

Also, Nightstalker's Transformation as your 3rd level spell-like means another 3d6 SA, without the cat's grace potion component.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-01, 10:37 PM
Unless you're doing serious pumping of FoI, blowing through IP like that means that you're equal--once or twice.

Also, Nightstalker's Transformation as your 3rd level spell-like means another 3d6 SA, without the cat's grace potion component.By higher level combat only lasts one round anyways, and it's cheap to grab FoI by that point, at least enough to boost you to ~20. I'd snag more if my party had no other damage-dealer, but generally Spell+Swift Spell+Full Attack means you'll be doing far better than your party anyways.

ClericofPhwarrr
2008-12-01, 10:49 PM
By higher level combat only lasts one round anyways

Eh, not that I've seen. My DM has seen how having only one or two enemies gets them taken out almost immediately. We're far more likely to see what amounts to a rival adventuring party, or numerous waves of high-threat enemies. In other instances, we've been unable to one-round things thanks to the terrain or situation.

AslanCross
2008-12-01, 11:29 PM
The Factotum is a better skillmonkey, IMO. The Beguiler is more of a control-oriented class in combat and tends to use magic to get her way in RP situations, so I think the Factotum can do better as a Rogue replacement.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-01, 11:36 PM
Factotums do better, from my experience, in combat and mobility, while Beguilers do better when presented with a stealth, information gathering, or social situation.

Prometheus
2008-12-01, 11:39 PM
Save the Rogues!

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-01, 11:40 PM
Factotums do better, from my experience, in combat and mobility, while Beguilers do better when presented with a stealth, information gathering, or social situation.

Although that depends on what the Factotum is speced for. They can be the best stealth characters in the game (thanks to Brains over Brawn+Arcane Dilletante).

The Glyphstone
2008-12-01, 11:42 PM
I'm missing something here...a Grey Elf Factotum 20 would have 7 feats to spend on FoI, plus 4 more after he Shuffles. Spending all of them on Font only gets 77 IP - he needs 1 more feat to spend on Font to get 90IP to blow on a single sneak attack.

There's also the fact that Rogues can get Penetrating Strike and still deal half their sneak damage, while Factotums are out of luck. They can spend their SLA's on Grave/Golem/Vinestrike though.

monty
2008-12-01, 11:43 PM
I'm missing something here...a Grey Elf Factotum 20 would have 7 feats to spend on FoI, plus 4 more after he Shuffles. Spending all of them on Font only gets 77 IP - he needs 1 more feat to spend on Font to get 90IP to blow on a single sneak attack.

Light Armor Proficiency?

Fax Celestis
2008-12-01, 11:43 PM
Although that depends on what the Factotum is speced for. They can be the best stealth characters in the game (thanks to Brains over Brawn+Arcane Dilletante).

Well, yeah. Factotums can be awesome at whatever they're specced for. From my experience, though, in a heavy-stealth situation, Arcane Dilettante isn't enough to compensate for invisibility + invisibility sphere + silence (edit: well, okay, you can cast those, but then you're pretty much out of spells. ArcDil caps out at 8 spells a day, whereas beguilers get a massive number of spells). Further, a factotum specced for stealth is going to be a slouch in combat, while a beguiler specced for stealth is going to still be able to play the controller role in combat.

I guess what I'm saying is, factotums specialize great; beguilers don't do it as well, but are better able to handle a bigger variety without prep time.

The Glyphstone
2008-12-01, 11:45 PM
Light Armor Proficiency?

Not sure if that qualifies - Elves specifically say that they get the Martial Proficiency feats, allowing them to Shuffle. Armor proficiency as part of a class isn't technically a feat.

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-01, 11:48 PM
I'm missing something here...a Grey Elf Factotum 20 would have 7 feats to spend on FoI, plus 4 more after he Shuffles. Spending all of them on Font only gets 77 IP - he needs 1 more feat to spend on Font to get 90IP to blow on a single sneak attack.

There's also the fact that Rogues can get Penetrating Strike and still deal half their sneak damage, while Factotums are out of luck. They can spend their SLA's on Grave/Golem/Vinestrike though.

Two flaws. One spent on FMI and the other on FoI. Plus you can always get more from legacy weapons.

monty
2008-12-01, 11:50 PM
Not sure if that qualifies - Elves specifically say that they get the Martial Proficiency feats, allowing them to Shuffle. Armor proficiency as part of a class isn't technically a feat.


All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.

tenletters

Gaiwecoor
2008-12-01, 11:53 PM
All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it.]

Uh oh ... does that mean my Eldritch Knight (Fighter/Wizard) just lost his Light Armor Proficiency? I'd hate to not be proficient in any armors, now ... :smalltongue:

I think this is one of those inconsistent points where the proficiency is sometimes referred to as a class feature, sometimes as a feat.

monty
2008-12-01, 11:56 PM
Uh oh ... does that mean my Eldritch Knight (Fighter/Wizard) just lost his Light Armor Proficiency? I'd hate to not be proficient in any armors, now ... :smalltongue:

I think this is one of those inconsistent points where the proficiency is sometimes referred to as a class feature, sometimes as a feat.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Eldritch knights gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Emphasis mine. You wouldn't lose it, but if you Chaos Shuffled it away, you wouldn't get it back, either.

Gaiwecoor
2008-12-01, 11:58 PM
Emphasis mine. You wouldn't lose it, but if you Chaos Shuffled it away, you wouldn't get it back, either.

Heh - my point was that the SRD specifically said "All characters except wizards ..." have it. Once you take the Wizard class, you lose the feat. No, I wasn't being serious.

monty
2008-12-02, 12:01 AM
Heh - my point was that the SRD specifically said "All characters except wizards ..." have it. Once you take the Wizard class, you lose the feat. No, I wasn't being serious.

I figured you weren't, but I wanted to answer it anyway. And in that case, you aren't a wizard; you're a wizard/fighter. I'm still right. :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2008-12-02, 12:02 AM
Two flaws. One spent on FMI and the other on FoI. Plus you can always get more from legacy weapons.

Ah - I hadn't been considering flaws, since their usage tends to be spotty amongst DMs - I've had about a 50% usage rate in the games I've played, so I went on the safe side and didn't count them. With flaws, the math makes sense.

Draz74
2008-12-02, 01:30 AM
The Factotum can out damage a rogue without any real effort. Cunning Surge plus Cunning Strike. Hello 90d6 Sneak attack that gets Int to Attack, Int to Damage, and is a touch attack thanks to Wraithstrike.

Yes, well, I threw in the "except via cheese" clause for a reason. Pumping multiple Fonts of Inspiration is cheese in my book.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Cunning Strike damage apply to only one attack? So even with FoI madness, you can't attack over and over and over again with full sneak attack on each strike.

So I still maintain that a Rogue will typically outdamage a "normal" Factotum. :smalltongue:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-02, 01:38 AM
Yes, well, I threw in the "except via cheese" clause for a reason. Pumping multiple Fonts of Inspiration is cheese in my book. Whereas I view taking it 5-6 times reasonable, since the base class has a fairly limited amount. 90 points is pushing it, though. ;)
So I still maintain that a Rogue will typically outdamage a "normal" Factotum. :smalltongue:The Factotum can deal as much or as little SA as is needed to put down the enemy. Lots of little enemies? Spend one point on the attack, one on adding Int, and one activating Craven. One big enemy? Go Nova. Wraithstrike+Int to hit+Int to damage+15d6 SA+Craven+Orb of Smack. 22 IP, which I've seen at 9th level with other feats taken as well. What's going to survive that?

Aquillion
2008-12-02, 01:38 AM
Yes, well, I threw in the "except via cheese" clause for a reason. Pumping multiple Fonts of Inspiration is cheese in my book.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Cunning Strike damage apply to only one attack? So even with FoI madness, you can't attack over and over and over again with full sneak attack on each strike.What exactly would you be fighting that could survive more than one strike?

Draz74
2008-12-02, 01:44 AM
What exactly would you be fighting that could survive more than one strike?

Survive more than one strike with how much Sneak Attack? Because I was under the impression that Tippy was suggesting +10d6 sneak attack or so, then hitting 9 times thanks to Cunning Surges. So his suggestion, which is what I was responding to, involves hitting with multiple strikes.

What would you be fighting that can survive a +10d6 strike? Tons of things, of course.

Now, if you're talking more about adding +90d6 sneak attack to a single strike with 90 Inspiration Points, that's a different story. And makes me shudder, once again, at the cheesiness of FoI. :smallyuk:

Edit: Also, in response to other comments: Note that a pureclass Factotum cannot take Craven. Even if evil-prone, setting-specific feats are allowed, Factotums do not have the prerequisite Sneak Attack "class feature," technically.

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-02, 01:51 AM
Survive more than one strike with how much Sneak Attack? Because I was under the impression that Tippy was suggesting +10d6 sneak attack or so, then hitting 9 times thanks to Cunning Surges. So his suggestion, which is what I was responding to, involves hitting with multiple strikes.

What would you be fighting that can survive a +10d6 strike? Tons of things, of course.

Now, if you're talking more about adding +90d6 sneak attack to a single strike with 90 Inspiration Points, that's a different story. And makes me shudder, once again, at the cheesiness of FoI. :smallyuk:
I meant 90d6 in that instance. I was merely saying that the factotum can match the Rogue without any problem.


Edit: Also, in response to other comments: Note that a pureclass Factotum cannot take Craven. Even if evil-prone, setting-specific feats are allowed, Factotums do not have the prerequisite Sneak Attack "class feature," technically.
Debatable.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-02, 01:53 AM
Survive more than one strike with how much Sneak Attack? Because I was under the impression that Tippy was suggesting +10d6 sneak attack or so, then hitting 9 times thanks to Cunning Surges. So his suggestion, which is what I was responding to, involves hitting with multiple strikes.

What would you be fighting that can survive a +10d6 strike? Tons of things, of course.

Now, if you're talking more about adding +90d6 sneak attack to a single strike with 90 Inspiration Points, that's a different story. And makes me shudder, once again, at the cheesiness of FoI. :smallyuk:

Edit: Also, in response to other comments: Note that a pureclass Factotum cannot take Craven. Even if evil-prone, setting-specific feats are allowed, Factotums do not have the prerequisite Sneak Attack "class feature," technically.They do at 15, undoubtedly.

Talic
2008-12-02, 01:55 AM
Am I the only one who likes Lurk?

Draz74
2008-12-02, 01:57 AM
I meant 90d6 in that instance. I was merely saying that the factotum can match the Rogue without any problem.
Ah, I misunderstood. Still, you're relying on extreme Font of Inspiration. My point was that, without that feat (that I as a DM would never allow), the Rogue can keep up.


Debatable.
... How? A class feature that allows them to situationally deal sneak attack damage is not the Sneak Attack class feature. I know the Sage Advice column isn't exactly considered official RAW, but in this case it seemed entirely sound to me.


They do at 15, undoubtedly.

:smallconfused: At level 15, Factotums gain an additional use of Opportunistic Piety, and access to Level 6 spells. I see nothing about Sneak Attack.


Am I the only one who likes Lurk?

Props for being, er, more on topic than the rest of us. :smallwink: Well, I don't own ComPsi, but I think my answer is "yes." A class that's supposed to take the Skill Monkey role, but with only 4+Int skill points? Ick. I'd prefer the Psychic Rogue, generally speaking.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-02, 02:01 AM
:smallconfused: At level 15, Factotums gain an additional use of Opportunistic Piety, and access to Level 6 spells. I see nothing about Sneak Attack.Sorry, level 19. It's late.

Draz74
2008-12-02, 02:06 AM
Sorry, level 19. It's late.

Ah. No, even then, it's debatable. They don't gain the Sneak Attack class feature (e.g., on their class table); they gain a class feature that lets them (very temporarily) add the Sneak Attack class feature. In my book, having a feature for up to 1 minute/day is not enough to qualify as a prerequisite. Though I guess there is precedent for such a ruling, which is why I'll admit it's debatable ...

... But even if you qualify for Craven starting at Level 19, when do you actually take the feat? Via Chaos Shuffle only?

Not to mention that nowhere, technically, does RAW declare that Sneak Attack is [Ex]. So a DM would actually be able to rule that you can't get Sneak Attack via Cunning Brilliance. But this I see as an oversight, on the level with Monks not being proficient in unarmed strikes, so I'm not intending for it to be a serious part of the debate. :smallwink:

Thurbane
2008-12-02, 02:07 AM
Am I the only one who likes Lurk?
I'm not very familiar with the psionic classes - what Benefits does the Lurk get?

Talic
2008-12-02, 02:10 AM
Props for being, er, more on topic than the rest of us. :smallwink: Well, I don't own ComPsi, but I think my answer is "yes." A class that's supposed to take the Skill Monkey role, but with only 4+Int skill points? Ick. I'd prefer the Psychic Rogue, generally speaking.

Oh, you meant the SKILL rogue. I like the more versatile forms of attack. It has a bit of alignment damage, several different bonus damage abilities, through Augments can get a sustainable high sneak attack, can negate uncanny dodge, and several other nifty things rogues don't get. And it gets a few powers.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-02, 02:12 AM
Ah. No, even then, it's debatable. They don't gain the Sneak Attack class feature (e.g., on their class table); they gain a class feature that lets them (very temporarily) add the Sneak Attack class feature. In my book, having a feature for up to 1 minute/day is not enough to qualify as a prerequisite. Though I guess there is precedent for such a ruling, which is why I'll admit it's debatable ...

... But even if you qualify for Craven starting at Level 19, when do you actually take the feat? Via Chaos Shuffle only?

Not to mention that nowhere, technically, does RAW declare that Sneak Attack is [Ex]. So a DM would actually be able to rule that you can't get Sneak Attack via Cunning Brilliance. But this I see as an oversight, on the level with Monks not being proficient in unarmed strikes, so I'm not intending for it to be a serious part of the debate. :smallwink:Even so, that also gives you SA 8d6 for one encounter, which puts you almost equal to the Rogue on it's own.

Emperor Tippy
2008-12-02, 02:14 AM
RAW you can take any feat at any time. You just can't use it or any feat that it is a prerequisite for unless you meet it's prerequisites at that exact moment.

Draz74
2008-12-02, 02:15 AM
Even so, that also gives you SA 8d6 for one encounter, which puts you almost equal to the Rogue on it's own.

Very true. My argument that the Rogue can "keep up" might fall apart once the party hits Level 19, even though the Factotum can only use this trick 1/day. (Cunning Brilliance: So ambiguously written, yet so fun!)


RAW you can take any feat at any time. You just can't use it or any feat that it is a prerequisite for unless you meet it's prerequisites at that exact moment.

OK, I'll concede that after Level 19, the Factotum can qualify for a Chaos-Shuffle-snagged Craven feat by RAW.

Lert, A.
2008-12-02, 02:18 AM
I'm not very familiar with the psionic classes - what Benefits does the Lurk get?

Various augments to melee attacks - extra damage, stunning, etc. - some psionic sneak attack - usable when character has psionic focus - Int boost to initiative, evasion, slippery mind, middling powers know.

Takes a little to long to get to the initiative boost, evasion, and slippery mind for my tastes but one of the few usable things in ComPsi.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-02, 02:28 AM
Very true. My argument that the Rogue can "keep up" might fall apart once the party hits Level 19, even though the Factotum can only use this trick 1/day. (Cunning Brilliance: So ambiguously written, yet so fun!)Look at low levels. Human Rogue has 1d6(SA)+1d6(Rapier)+1(Craven) damage at first level, with a +4 to-hit(yes, he gets Wep Finesse at one, I'm nice). He also gets 11 skill points and 8 HP(18 Dex, 14 Int, 14 Con, 10s otherwise). A Factotum gets 2d6 damage from the Greatsword with +0 to-hit, has 5 IP that can be used to add 4 to Damage, AB, or Saves, 11 Skill Points, 10 HP, slightly worse Ref save, and better skills.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h112/katerinos/575728002_43f7221df8.jpg

Eldran
2008-12-02, 03:05 AM
Not sure if that qualifies - Elves specifically say that they get the Martial Proficiency feats, allowing them to Shuffle. Armor proficiency as part of a class isn't technically a feat.

With Shuffle ... do you mean that there is a rule that allows you to exchange proficiencies or other abilities with self selected feats?

If the answer is yes, plz point out the book in question.

Sorry for the side-question.

Frosty
2008-12-02, 03:34 AM
Can you use Assassin's stance to qualify for feats requiring Sneak Attack? A one-level dip into swordsage could rock.

Aquillion
2008-12-02, 05:02 AM
With Shuffle ... do you mean that there is a rule that allows you to exchange proficiencies or other abilities with self selected feats?

If the answer is yes, plz point out the book in question.

Sorry for the side-question.It's short for Chaos Shuffle. It's not so much a rule as a blatant (though acceptable, per RAW) rules exploit, using two spells: Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos.

It's pretty simple. Embrace the Dark Chaos allows you to exchange any of your feats for Abyssal Heritage feats. Shun the Dark Chaos allows you to change any Abyssal heritage feat into another feat you qualify for. There's a small XP cost, but who cares.

Yes, that really is all there is to it; with those two spells, you can exchange any feat for any other feat near-instantly at the price of some xp. At first glance, it doesn't look much more powerful than Psychic Reformation, say, which lets you change some old level-up decisions you made in the past in exchange for xp (including feats.)

But then you notice you can use it to end up with feats you could never have qualified for. Or, depending on your interpretation of class prerequisites, you could trade away prerequisite feats you no longer need -- in general, you can 'cheat' on the order you need prerequisites in, instead of being constrained by the order in which you level. Powerful, way beyond what was intended, but still not that bad.

But then people started to notice that the rules state that you get various weapons proficiency feats for certain races or classes. Hence, you can chaos shuffle unnecessary proficiency feats (or ones you've got from someplace else anyway) for a free feat. At this point it becomes completely broken (leading to some races of elves giving you three feats basically for free, just because you know this trick.)

IHMO it's fairly silly to give people advice involving Chaos Shuffle in a build they intend to use in an actual game, unless they've specifically stated that it's allowed. Sure, it works per RAW; so does using Dweomerkeeper + Major Creation to produce infinite wealth. Engineering a combination of rules to get three or more feats at basically no cost is still not something you should just assume is acceptable in everyone's game; at the very least, it ought to be prefaced with "...if Chaos Shuffle is allowed, then..."

Saying "Oh, just take Grey Elf and spend the three feats you get on..." without even mentioning Chaos Shuffle is pointlessly misleading. If they already know about it and it's allowed in their game, of course they're going to use it; outside of character-specific circumstances, there's no reason why anyone trying to optimize would ever use a non-Chaos Shuffle oriented build in a game where it's allowed. To people who already know about it, telling people to use it is akin to saying "Oh, yes, and your wizard should have some points in int."

But for people who don't know about it, you should make clear what you're suggesting, so they don't start making a build around the things you mentioned in passing and only later learn that it depends on something their DM might not allow.

Draz74
2008-12-02, 05:07 AM
^ My thoughts (on Chaos Shuffle) exactly.


A Factotum ... has 5 IP that can be used to add 4 to Damage, AB, or Saves,

How many times do I need to repeat? My claim that the Rogue is a better damage-dealer than the Factotum is based on the assumption of no Font of Inspiration. Your comparison isn't as impressive if the Factotum only has 2 Inspiration per encounter.

I was also assuming a Rogue build that somewhat concentrates on Sneak Attacking as much as possible (i.e. TWF).

And the whole "neither of them can actually get Weapon Finesse at Level 1, even if they want it" issue just makes things more confusing.

Factotum is definitely a better class overall, and can keep up with the Rogue in damage output at some levels (including, possibly, Level 1, where that Martial Weapon Proficiency makes the most difference). But for most of the middle levels of the game, and with no FoI, the typical TWF Rogue with a flanking buddy will be putting out damage the Factotum can only dream of. (Unless fighting oozes, undead, constructs, plants, elementals, etc., of course. :smallyuk:)


Can you use Assassin's stance to qualify for feats requiring Sneak Attack? A one-level dip into swordsage could rock.

Yes, that can work.

Aquillion
2008-12-02, 05:13 AM
Can you use Assassin's stance to qualify for feats requiring Sneak Attack? A one-level dip into swordsage could rock.
Sorta. You will stop qualifying whenever you're not in the stance, though... not that that matters, since any of the feats you're likely to want to take will only help you when you're in that stance, and you have no real reason to leave it anyhow.

EDIT: Although note that some things, like the Craven feat, specify the "sneak attack class feature", which I suspect Assassin's Stance doesn't precisely provide. It wouldn't be enough to qualify for those, no.


RAW you can take any feat at any time. You just can't use it or any feat that it is a prerequisite for unless you meet it's prerequisites at that exact moment.
This is untrue. From the SRD:

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.
You must meet the prerequisites both at the time when you take the feat, and whenever you wish to use it; and (like all decisions made when leveling up) you must choose your feats as soon as you gain a level -- you can't delay the decision until you change your equipment or use one of your class features (in this case, to gain another class feature.)

However, it isn't completely hopeless; if you can arrange, somehow, to gain a level during the exact moment when you're emulating the class feature needed (sneak attack for Craven, in this case), then it could work.

Needless to say, Chaos Shuffle avoids this problem; then all you have to do is be sure you meet the prerequisites when you perform the shuffle.