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View Full Version : [3.5]Which one is likelier to keep a lv1 rogue alive. +1 AC or +2 Hide/Move Silently?



newbDM
2008-12-02, 07:21 AM
So I am deciding my new level 1 kobold rogue's second feat, and I am debating with myself which option would be likelier to help keep him alive. The Improved Natural Armor feat from the MM1, or the Stealthy feat from the PHB 1 which gives one +2 to Hide and Move Silently checks.

Does +1 AC really make a difference at all? And a bonus to Hide and Move Silently seems like it is very situation dependent.


The crazy chicken wielding little bugger only has 8hp, and it has been a while since I have started at level 1.

Also, the DM will be doing pure modules (much to my dismay) if that makes a difference.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

xPANCAKEx
2008-12-02, 07:34 AM
i'd consider both feats a bit sub-optimal. Something like improved initiative will pay-off far more in the long run (especially as a rogue) - you'll soon have better armour/skills

if its just for a one-shot or something, then i guess out of those two i'd go with stealthy. Just be very selective about what battles you pick though

newbDM
2008-12-02, 08:35 AM
i'd consider both feats a bit sub-optimal. Something like improved initiative will pay-off far more in the long run (especially as a rogue) - you'll soon have better armour/skills

if its just for a one-shot or something, then i guess out of those two i'd go with stealthy. Just be very selective about what battles you pick though

Well, he plans on making it a long "campaign" using module after module.

I just want to make sure this guy/thing gets past lv.1.

Behold_the_Void
2008-12-02, 09:41 AM
Neither feat is particularly good, so I'd definitely go with something else.

Telonius
2008-12-02, 09:45 AM
Of those two, +1AC. The chicken is going to ruin your move silently anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2008-12-02, 10:21 AM
For my first two feats as a Rogue I'd pick Improved Initiative, because going first may prevent unexpected demise; and Weapon Finesse, so you can hit more often in melee.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-12-02, 11:11 AM
Going first also means you get to Sneak Attack more, so Improved Init. is great for rogues.

xPANCAKEx
2008-12-02, 11:46 AM
Weapon Finesse, so you can hit more often in melee.

only if you use certain weapons, and its not available at 1st level... so sadly its off the list

KeresM
2008-12-02, 12:17 PM
Depends more on how you play your character. Are you going to be stealthing in at every opportunity, avoiding combat? Or are you going to be moving through the thick of melee?

Eldariel
2008-12-02, 12:20 PM
On the first level, you should use a bow anyways - the AC isn't that important since you shouldn't be the guy getting hit. Hide and Move Silently would give immediate reward (as you'll be scouting and would rather not be seen), but they'd suck later when you make your checks anyways so I wouldn't take that either.

Severus
2008-12-02, 01:37 PM
Here's another vote for improved initiative. It's valuable from 1 to 20. Going first never gets old.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-02, 01:39 PM
So I am deciding my new level 1 kobold rogue's second feat, and I am debating with myself which option would be likelier to help keep him alive.

Option C: Chant "Pazuzu" and have him get you a Candel of Inocation

Fax Celestis
2008-12-02, 02:22 PM
Would Luck of Heroes (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Luck_of_Heroes,all) be an option? +1 Luck AC, +1 luck to all saves.

xPANCAKEx
2008-12-02, 06:39 PM
Would Luck of Heroes (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Luck_of_Heroes,all) be an option? +1 Luck AC, +1 luck to all saves.

certainly is more of a contender - but as with many +save feats it feels weaker as you level up.

newbDM
2008-12-02, 06:43 PM
The chicken is going to ruin your move silently anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Damn, I completely forgot about that. :smallbiggrin:



For my first two feats as a Rogue I'd pick Improved Initiative, because going first may prevent unexpected demise; and Weapon Finesse, so you can hit more often in melee.

He has the natural weapons variant from the Web Enhancement for Races of the Dragon. He has a bite and two claws, so I was originally going to take Weapon Finesse. However, it turns out rogues do not get a BaB of +1 until level two.



Depends more on how you play your character. Are you going to be stealthing in at every opportunity, avoiding combat? Or are you going to be moving through the thick of melee?

Well, he is going to be quite cowardly. He is a kobold after all, and a Kobolds ate my Baby like one to boot. I do not plan to have him in the thick of combat, but I am thinking he will mostly try to help with sneak attacks (probably after hiding).



On the first level, you should use a bow anyways - the AC isn't that important since you shouldn't be the guy getting hit. Hide and Move Silently would give immediate reward (as you'll be scouting and would rather not be seen), but they'd suck later when you make your checks anyways so I wouldn't take that either.

I see. But again, his attacks are going to focus around his natural weapons. He is only 7 years old to boot, so he will be somewhat childlike, and has a Wis of 8 to boot. Bows just don't seem to fit what I am trying to do with his "theme".

He does have a M.W. iron pot he wears on his head (the DM ruled it could count as a club), so I believe I can throw a club/the pot as a thrown weapon with an increment of 10ft (still not too sure about that, though).



Here's another vote for improved initiative. It's valuable from 1 to 20. Going first never gets old.

Very true. But will it be valuable for helping him survive these very early levels?


Option C: Chant "Pazuzu" and have him get you a Candel of Inocation

LoL. :smallbiggrin:

Oh you...



Would Luck of Heroes (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Luck_of_Heroes,all) be an option? +1 Luck AC, +1 luck to all saves.

Well, i would not call him a "hero", and from how I am reading it you need to be of certain races and you need to eb from certain forgotten realms areas. :smallfrown:

Curmudgeon
2008-12-02, 09:44 PM
For my first two feats as a Rogue I'd pick Improved Initiative, because going first may prevent unexpected demise; and Weapon Finesse, so you can hit more often in melee.

only if you use certain weapons, and its not available at 1st level... so sadly its off the list
I understand that. I was recommending Improved Initiative, with Weapon Finesse the next feat to take thereafter (at 3rd level). I apologize if exceeding the scope of the immediate question caused any confusion.

newbDM
2008-12-02, 10:04 PM
I understand that. I was recommending Improved Initiative, with Weapon Finesse the next feat to take thereafter (at 3rd level). I apologize if exceeding the scope of the immediate question caused any confusion.

Oops! My bad.

I forgot to mention that I took a flaw for this character (Chicken Infested), which gives him a bonus feat. So I effectively have two separate feats at first level as a kobold rogue.

MeklorIlavator
2008-12-02, 10:10 PM
Oops! My bad.

I forgot to mention that I took a flaw for this character (Chicken Infested), which gives him a bonus feat. So I effectively have two separate feats at first level as a kobold rogue.

Isn't Chicken Infested
A) a joke flaw?
B) Commoner only?

newbDM
2008-12-02, 10:19 PM
Isn't Chicken Infested
A) a joke flaw?
B) Commoner only?

See my thread currently on p.2 of this board:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98302


edit:
He decided to rather OK it for non-commoners than let me play a level of commoner. Go figure.

Darrin
2008-12-02, 10:47 PM
Well, he is going to be quite cowardly. He is a kobold after all, and a Kobolds ate my Baby like one to boot. I do not plan to have him in the thick of combat, but I am thinking he will mostly try to help with sneak attacks (probably after hiding).


Sounds like Craven would be perfect. In Champions of Ruin, add Character Level to Sneak Attack damage, and -2 to will saves. . One of the better feats for rogues in the long run, but unfortunately maybe not so great for:



But will it be valuable for helping him survive these very early levels?


Luck of Heroes is tempting... but if you want a bit better AC... Expeditious Dodge would give you a +2 to AC when you move 30', and you generally make a hide check after moving.

If you have access to Magic of Incarnum, there are a couple soulmelds that might be even better. Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt would give you +2 bonus to natural armor.

And if you're looking for stealth... Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws would give you +4 on Hide and Move Silently.

Shisumo
2008-12-02, 11:40 PM
I think you're going to quickly run into the problem that "stealth" and "melee" don't go together very well. You might want to reconsider exactly how you plan to have the character work.

BobVosh
2008-12-03, 03:00 AM
How attached are you to kobold? Whisper Gnome lets you silence your 5foot square (including any chickens) and gives you a +6(or is it 8) to hide/ms.

Oh, second thought on chicken infested. Just kill the things. Next combat do the Spell component/chicken trick instead. Because nothing says style like leaving dead chickens at every crime scene.

P.s. Try to get live chicken armor past. For this to work you need to get the whisper gnome. Start by circling around them and drawing chicken components. Drop the chicken/bat poo around them. They steadily hear rising amounts of clucking. Drop your silence and bull rush. "Suddenly you hear a large BA-GAWK! as a small figure barrels into your friend. Impressed you notice that he charged into your friends liver. Seems to do extra damage. Roll initiative."

Try for armor spikes on it as well.

Rad
2008-12-03, 03:10 AM
If I have it right you have a claw/claw/bite set of natural weapons, right? Then I'd take multiattack (MM) and Improved initiative. (Weapon finesse is to follow at level 3).
You have your skills for the stealthy side and making more melee attacks is good for a rogue who adds his sneak attack to each of them. The low base damage doesn't really matter since most of your damage is going to be sneak attack anyway.

Kizara
2008-12-03, 03:17 AM
Isn't the whole point of the chicken-infested thing that you are going to throw the chickens?

I'd take a feat that makes you proficient with the chickens.

Exotic Weapon Prof (poultry) or something...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-03, 03:19 AM
If I have it right you have a claw/claw/bite set of natural weapons, right? Then I'd take multiattack (MM) and Improved initiative. (Weapon finesse is to follow at level 3).
You have your skills for the stealthy side and making more melee attacks is good for a rogue who adds his sneak attack to each of them. The low base damage doesn't really matter since most of your damage is going to be sneak attack anyway.If you take this route(and I do think it's a very good idea) I suggest a 1-level dip in either Monk or Unarmed Swordsage(so, Unarmed Swordsage) so you can get iteratives with feet/elbows in addition to your Natural Weapon attacks. If you go the Swordsage route, pick up Assassin's stance for an additional 2d6 damage to all Sneak Attacks. Toss in Craven and similar and go to town.

Talic
2008-12-03, 03:32 AM
Hmm. For stealth rogues:

Darkstalker > Skill focus: Hide > Stealthy

Improved Initiative is good, as well as anything that lets you stay back.

With 8 HP, you do not want to be a front liner. Ranged attacks. Use that Dex, and that small size. Sure, the damage will be lower, but survivability goes up.

4 ranks + 4 dex + 4 size = +12 hide mod. That's not bad, as long as you move slowly. +14 won't really add much. Darkstalker, right off the bat, will foil scent. Later on, other senses start seeing more use, and it helps there too.

ericgrau
2008-12-03, 03:43 AM
Nah, I could see the stealthy feat being useful if people actually used it. That would mean a solo campaign or maybe party full of stealthy characters. You would constantly have to avoid encounters altogether, sneaking your way to wherever you need to go. After you're already noticed in a fight you can't hide (see skill rules), making it pretty worthless in most parties. Between battle use from time to time is fine for your skill ranks, but not an entire feat.

So really it depends what you're doing. If you're in a party then don't get either. You can't even use the stealth during combat. While +1 AC is underrated, it is certainly worse than getting +1 AB or something else. +1 AC is -1 AB to your opponents; assuming they attack you with weapons. So at the very best +1 AC is equal to +1 AB, and depending on the situation it may be worse. Don't boost saves either; it usually doesn't come up often enough to be worth it and even when it does it's not like that +1 or +2 is going to make an insane difference.

If you want to stay alive as a rogue in a party, avoid melee against anything that can seriously hurt you. Get a ranged weapon for other times. Monsters are flat-footed before their first turn, so you can sneak attack those monsters during round 1. Improved initiative can help, but so can boosting your AB so your one important attack hits. And as long as at least one monster still goes after you, you don't even need improved initiative.

A simple way to get +1 AC after you hit level 2 or so is a masterwork buckler. It has no armor check penalty, so there aren't any penalties to AB for being nonproficient. i.e., even a rogue without buckler proficiency can use it. Not sure if it can be used with a crossbow, so you may need to get a shortbow instead (check the rules).

Talic
2008-12-03, 03:57 AM
Incorrect. All you must do when you're noticed in a fight is establish total cover or concealment, hide, and move back into a position of partial cover or concealment. In other words, you break Line of Sight, and return.

That said, anything hide can do, Shape soulmeld:Kruthik Claws does a bit better (at least, at low levels, provided you have a 13 con (level 1 rogue with 8 hp? Likely a 14 con there). If retraining is allowed, ditch it later.

ericgrau
2008-12-03, 05:27 AM
Per the rules, you cannot hide while being observed. You need both that and concealment (i.e., something to hide behind). "Concealment" means partial concealment like a shadow or bush or etc. With total concealment you can't be seen anyway and don't need a hide check. With partial concealment he'll be looking right at you no matter how good you are at hiding. But even with total concealment the observer likely knows where you went (again, per the rules) and would likely be watching if you tried to come out and sneak attack. 2nd part is inferred, but all that "breaking line of sight" stuff is even more inferred. And I don't see why the rules would mention that bit about being watched while taking total concealment otherwise. If you create a diversion, then you can hide. That's the only specifically mentioned method in the rules outside of special abilities.

Basically all that makes hiding after combat has begun highly unlikely, though technically sometimes possible. Even if you really could hide by cutting line of sight for 6 seconds, even that isn't all that common and feasible.

Darrin
2008-12-03, 09:51 AM
Isn't the whole point of the chicken-infested thing that you are going to throw the chickens?


Only if they are on fire (via Dragonfire Inspiration/Strike). Add some Bloodstorm Blade for Flaming Returning Power Attacking Chickens.



I'd take a feat that makes you proficient with the chickens.
Exotic Weapon Prof (poultry) or something...

It would most likely count as an improvised weapon, and that -4 penalty can be difficult to get rid of. Drunken Master might help, but that requires at least two levels of monk, and it doesn't explicitly remove the -4 penalty for improvised weapons. Hulking Hurler reduces the penalty to -2... actually, that'd be pretty amusing if you could get a kobold into that PrC.

There's a 3.0 PrC in Dragon somewhere, Brawler, that removes the -4 improvised penalty entirely, but it requires three useless feats.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-03, 11:50 AM
Per the rules, you cannot hide while being observed. You need both that and concealment (i.e., something to hide behind). "Concealment" means partial concealment like a shadow or bush or etc. With total concealment you can't be seen anyway and don't need a hide check. With partial concealment he'll be looking right at you no matter how good you are at hiding. But even with total concealment the observer likely knows where you went (again, per the rules) and would likely be watching if you tried to come out and sneak attack. 2nd part is inferred, but all that "breaking line of sight" stuff is even more inferred. And I don't see why the rules would mention that bit about being watched while taking total concealment otherwise. If you create a diversion, then you can hide. That's the only specifically mentioned method in the rules outside of special abilities.

Basically all that makes hiding after combat has begun highly unlikely, though technically sometimes possible. Even if you really could hide by cutting line of sight for 6 seconds, even that isn't all that common and feasible.

False.


Hide (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
Check

Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. Itís practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you canít hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that youíre out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

f your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping

If youíve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Creating a Diversion to Hide

You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

See also: epic usages of Hide.
Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesnít take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
What gives concealment? Darkness, shadowy illumination, a blur spell.... What gives cover? Your allies, debris, opponents, trees, furniture...

As for "line of sight" implied? No, it's stated that "they need line of sight."

And distractions? I would think "raging barbarian in the face" would qualify as "distracting."

Fax Celestis
2008-12-03, 11:55 AM
Per the rules, you cannot hide while being observed. You need both that and concealment (i.e., something to hide behind). "Concealment" means partial concealment like a shadow or bush or etc. With total concealment you can't be seen anyway and don't need a hide check. With partial concealment he'll be looking right at you no matter how good you are at hiding. But even with total concealment the observer likely knows where you went (again, per the rules) and would likely be watching if you tried to come out and sneak attack. 2nd part is inferred, but all that "breaking line of sight" stuff is even more inferred. And I don't see why the rules would mention that bit about being watched while taking total concealment otherwise. If you create a diversion, then you can hide. That's the only specifically mentioned method in the rules outside of special abilities.

Basically all that makes hiding after combat has begun highly unlikely, though technically sometimes possible. Even if you really could hide by cutting line of sight for 6 seconds, even that isn't all that common and feasible.

False.


Hide (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
Check

Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. Itís practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you canít hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that youíre out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

f your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping

If youíve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Creating a Diversion to Hide

You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

See also: epic usages of Hide.
Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesnít take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
What gives concealment? Darkness, shadowy illumination, a blur spell.... What gives cover? Your allies, debris, opponents, trees, furniture...

As for "line of sight" implied? No, it's stated that "they need line of sight."

And distractions? I would think "raging barbarian in the face" would qualify as "distracting."

Person_Man
2008-12-03, 12:07 PM
Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915)

I suggest Dragonwrought, from Races of the Dragon. It gives you the dragon type, which grants immunity to Sleep and Paralysis, Darkvision, Low Light Vision, and +2 to a Skill (based on what dragon color you choose). It also opens up Alter Self shenanigans, as you can use it to turn into dragons.

newbDM
2008-12-03, 07:03 PM
Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915)


Thank you so much for that link!

After looking through it, I found Telling Blow from the PHB2. What do you guys think?

I am not sure if my train of thought is accurate, but I am thinking that if he has three weapons the likelihood of him scoring a critical (on a Nat 20 for natural weapons) would skyrocket (it would be three times likelier I believe?). And you can actually take that feat at 1st level I believe, and after looking through many books for feats 1st level characters can take I have learned that is a good thing (thanks again for the list! a lot of time saved). Plus my group uses the Fumble Deck and Crit Deck, so that might lead to extra fun.


As for feat #1, I have gone with the Multiattack feat from the MM1. Thank you guys for the help with that one!

Curmudgeon
2008-12-03, 07:49 PM
Generally Telling Blow is worthwhile only if you have
a wide critical threat range,
lots of attacks, and
frequent situations where you don't otherwise qualify for sneak attack.
You're nowhere close to a keen rapier (threat range 15-20) on the first point. Three times likelier than almost never isn't going to matter enough.

ericgrau
2008-12-03, 08:34 PM
The way to create a diversion to hide is a bluff check, which is a standard action. Being able to hide again after gaining total concealment, but with the note that the create may still know where you went, is a caveat. Common sense dictates that in some situations you may or may not be able to sneak up on that person, or sneak past him, hence the caveat.

Triaxx
2008-12-03, 08:55 PM
Stay out of Melee for the most part. Give him a sling, and let him use ranged sneak attack. Perhaps combined with an appropriately sized tower shield.

newbDM
2008-12-04, 01:48 AM
I suggest Dragonwrought, from Races of the Dragon. It gives you the dragon type, which grants immunity to Sleep and Paralysis, Darkvision, Low Light Vision, and +2 to a Skill (based on what dragon color you choose). It also opens up Alter Self shenanigans, as you can use it to turn into dragons.

Oh, and I do not want to go that route for this PC. I have done it before. Plus, it does not fit into the KamB theme for this guy (read his character sheet cover for why).



Generally Telling Blow is worthwhile only if you have
a wide critical threat range,
lots of attacks, and
frequent situations where you don't otherwise qualify for sneak attack.
You're nowhere close to a keen rapier (threat range 15-20) on the first point. Three times likelier than almost never isn't going to matter enough.

I see.

But is 1 out of 20 near almost never?

And I am not truly trying to "optimize" this character. That should be obvious just based on what he is, and the flaw I took for him.



Stay out of Melee for the most part. Give him a sling, and let him use ranged sneak attack. Perhaps combined with an appropriately sized tower shield.

Well, he does have a M.W. iron pot that he wears on his head (the DM ruled it could function as a Club). If I read the club's entry correctly, it has a range increment of 10ft, which I believe means I can use it as a thrown weapon. I was planning on using that for his ranged sneak attacks (within 30ft). Is there a feat that would increase the range on that thing?

I guess Improved Initiative is the best option period, but I really want to do something else besides the expected and extremely overdone. I guess I just want to have more "fun" with him than actual great (or even good) mechanics. However, since such "fun" characters tend to die young I decided to make this thread.


And I agree with you all about staying out of combat as much as possible. Thank you all for making me realize that!


p.s. I am also planning on getting the fire/flaming property on the pot/club, so it would be like a self-cooking pot...

Lert, A.
2008-12-04, 02:17 AM
Since everyone is throwing around ideas, is there a reason you are not contemplating Dragonwrought (and please forgive if you stated a reason and I missed it)? Cheese aside - which a wary GM would spot and disallow anyways unless it fit the campaign - you gain some immunities, low light and darkvision, +2 to a skill related to your chosen heritage which could give you your skill boost.

Kizara
2008-12-04, 02:21 AM
It would most likely count as an improvised weapon, and that -4 penalty can be difficult to get rid of. Drunken Master might help, but that requires at least two levels of monk, and it doesn't explicitly remove the -4 penalty for improvised weapons. Hulking Hurler reduces the penalty to -2... actually, that'd be pretty amusing if you could get a kobold into that PrC.

There's a 3.0 PrC in Dragon somewhere, Brawler, that removes the -4 improvised penalty entirely, but it requires three useless feats.

You don't think EWP could reasonably cover this?
I mean, I hear what you are saying, but step back from RAW a bit and think about it. EWP is specializing in an unconventional weapon, which this certinally is. Its not on the chart or listed as an exotic weapon, but come on.

Its a joke character anyways, but even if it wasn't I'd let someone take EWP to use an otherwise improvised weapon. It's not like its a GOOD weapon choice...

Curmudgeon
2008-12-04, 02:22 AM
But is 1 out of 20 near almost never?
Yeah, it pretty much is. It's only 1/6 as much as the threat range of a keen rapier, and then Telling Blow is a winner based on statistical damage done over time and the fact that the non-dice bonus damage added by Craven also gets multiplied on a critical hit. You'd be starting with only half the threat potential of that keen rapier (3 x 1/20 vs. 1 x 6/20), and no Craven to add bonus damage. There's no easy equivalent of keen for natural attacks, and Keen Edge can't be cast on natural weapons. Because claw and bite are different types of attacks you would need to take Improved Critical or other weapon-specific feats for each of them. So yeah, you would get very little return from Telling Blow.

newbDM
2008-12-04, 02:25 AM
Since everyone is throwing around ideas, is there a reason you are not contemplating Dragonwrought (and please forgive if you stated a reason and I missed it)? Cheese aside - which a wary GM would spot and disallow anyways unless it fit the campaign - you gain some immunities, low light and darkvision, +2 to a skill related to your chosen heritage which could give you your skill boost.

Two reasons really.


He is a returning character. He will even be going through the same module he originally appeared in, which he didn't get to finish! So I do not want to detour too much from his original concept/build. (See his character sheet cover below)
He is a Kobolds ate my Baby (http://www.koboldsatemybaby.com/) themed kobold/dogbold, so reptilian wings do not quite fit.



Cover for his new character sheet:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/19011fb7.png


Second page (His Fluff):

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/80655128.png

newbDM
2008-12-04, 02:33 AM
...
......
Its a joke character anyways..


Well, I do not know whether to take offense to that, or be proud.

Talic
2008-12-04, 02:39 AM
What gives concealment? Darkness, shadowy illumination, a blur spell.... What gives cover? Your allies, debris, opponents, trees, furniture...It should be noted that creatures provide soft cover, which cannot be used to hide in.


And distractions? I would think "raging barbarian in the face" would qualify as "distracting."
You'd think. But as long as your opponent can claim casual observation, such as 80% focused on barbarian, 15% on terrain, 5% on sneaky-mcsneakerton, then there's an argument for "not sufficiently distracted".

Bluff provides an RAW method for doing so.

Kizara
2008-12-04, 02:49 AM
Well, I do not know whether to take offense to that, or be proud.

My point is that its hardly overpowering to let you take EWP (chickens) to be able to throw live chickens without penalty. I mean, the fact that they are live and would move independantly would give you an attack penalty IMO, but you should at least be able to become proficient with them.

newbDM
2008-12-04, 02:55 AM
My point is that its hardly overpowering to let you take EWP (chickens) to be able to throw live chickens without penalty. I mean, the fact that they are live and would move independantly would give you an attack penalty IMO, but you should at least be able to become proficient with them.

Oh I know, I was just joking.

I believe he is beyond a joke character at this point. :smallbiggrin:


And I do like the Weapon Proficiency (Chicken idea). I will try getting it past my DM at a later level (after I take Weapon Finesse at lv.3). I am not trying it immediately because I feel the DM has given me enough leeway at the moment. There is only so much nonsense you can get by a DM. Once the party is (mostly) used to the issue of the feathered white ones, and they have become a more integrated part of the character, I will ask the DM.

Just one thing, how much damage can a chicken do?

newbDM
2008-12-04, 02:56 AM
Oh, and do you think Leadership, but with chicken minions would work?

Kizara
2008-12-04, 03:11 AM
Oh, and do you think Leadership, but with chicken minions would work?

You can spontaneously generate the chickens out of nowhere, right? So what would be the point of that?


And I do like the Weapon Proficiency (Chicken idea). I will try getting it past my DM at a later level (after I take Weapon Finesse at lv.3). I am not trying it immediately because I feel the DM has given me enough leeway at the moment. There is only so much nonsense you can get by a DM. Once the party is (mostly) used to the issue of the feathered white ones, and they have become a more integrated part of the character, I will ask the DM.

Why on earth would you want to be better at melee combat? If your DM won't let you be proficient with the chickens (which is barely even a request if he allowed the concept in the first place), throw daggers or use a crossbow.

Now, I don't know about most of the stuff being suggested (dragonwrought for instance), but I would go something like:

EWP (chickens), Improved Init, Point Blank Shot (1st)
Precise shot or far shot(3rd)
Rapid Shot (6th)

Far shot is because the range on the chickens is going to be really small, like 10ft, and you are often going to want to not have to be within 10ft to attack something.

I would say a live chicken would do 1d3 (or maybe 1d2) + str damage with a 10ft range increment when thrown, but would incur a -2 to attack and damage as it squirms and actively attempts to avoid hitting it's target.

A dead chicken would be similar, sans the movement penalty.

I'd also allow a second feat (after basic proficiency) or class feature that removes the -2 penalty, as you ethier have some power to sedate the chickens through magic/mad animal skills or have somehow learned to compensate for it.

newbDM
2008-12-04, 04:31 AM
You can spontaneously generate the chickens out of nowhere, right? So what would be the point of that?

To have them serve you!


My PC: "Go forth my foul minions, and peck, peck, peck! Peck till the rivers run red with blood!!!" http://forums.gleemax.com/images/smilies/evillaugh.gif

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-04, 04:36 AM
To have them serve you!


My PC: "Go forth my foul minions, and peck, peck, peck! Peck till the rivers run red with blood!!!" http://forums.gleemax.com/images/smilies/evillaugh.gifPlus, chicken followers would have class levels. It's one thing to throw a bird at an enemy, it's another to throw a bird at an enemy, activating his SA and yours, then having the bird start a grapple and inflict heavy unarmed damage while using a Martial Maneuver. :smallbiggrin:

Epinephrine
2008-12-04, 10:22 AM
I would say a live chicken would do 1d3 (or maybe 1d2) + str damage with a 10ft range increment when thrown, but would incur a -2 to attack and damage as it squirms and actively attempts to avoid hitting it's target.

Huh? Really? You think that hitting an average person with a thrown chicken (dead) has a chance of knocking them unconscious? I'd put chicken damage at 1d6-5, nonlethal, 1/2 strength bonus. Sure, you can pelt someone unconscious with them (potentially) but you're not likely to do so very quickly.

Triaxx
2008-12-04, 10:28 AM
We seem to have diverged mightily from the original topic, though I can't see where. Anyway, the character sounds like fun, and while not someone I'd want to play, I'll consider sending him against my PC's next time I DM a new game. Could be tons of fun.

Kizara
2008-12-04, 10:34 AM
Huh? Really? You think that hitting an average person with a thrown chicken (dead) has a chance of knocking them unconscious? I'd put chicken damage at 1d6-5, nonlethal, 1/2 strength bonus. Sure, you can pelt someone unconscious with them (potentially) but you're not likely to do so very quickly.

1) Where are you getting the -5 from? Modiferis don't work that way; you can't just randomly put a -5 mod on something to make it lower, it has to originate from somewhere.

2) It can't really be lower then 1d2, and even 1d3 is appropriate considering its a Tiny-sized, solid, fairly throwable object. I repeat btw, that a dead chicken would be quite a solid object with decent mass. Ever pick up a small turkey at the store for thanksgiving? It has respectable weight and mass.

3) Thrown objects apply the throwers strength, this is not a ruling or dependant on the object.

4) And no, considering an average person would be non-proficient with a chicken, and have a +0 to strength, dealing 1-2 damage and being unlikely to score a solid hit, it would not knock anyone unconcisous.


As for chicken leadership, the problem is that chickens are non-intelligent creatures, and are not able to really follow you in the way that the leadership feat represents.

Honestly, if you want exceptional, trained chickens you will ethier need to:

A) Use the Handle Animal skill, and train them and make them like and follow you etc.

B) Invent or adapt another mechanic for using a large amount of pseudo-magical (ala animal companions and such) animals to serve your aims. Beastmaster is the only thing that comes to mind regarding that.


Regardless, considering the CR of chickens, if you did not advance or awaken them in any fashion, I would say you could have like 10 of them for every single CR 1 creature you would otherwise be entitled to. So, if you did somehow make the leadership feat fly for this purpose (and that's stretching things a LOT more then my EWP suggestion), then, IMO, you would be entitled to a whole swarm of the things.

RebelRogue
2008-12-04, 11:26 AM
My point is that its hardly overpowering to let you take EWP (chickens) to be able to throw live chickens without penalty.
I'd just like to point out, that you also need BAB +1 to take EWP, but that's probably not too important here (I'd certainly allow it as a DM anyway...)

Person_Man
2008-12-04, 01:46 PM
Thank you so much for that link!

After looking through it, I found Telling Blow from the PHB2. What do you guys think?


You're welcome.

Telling Blow is a huge waste. In the best case scenario, it lets you qualify for Sneak Attack 30% of the time. Here is a list of ways to qualify for Sneak Attack:
Ways to qualify for Sneak Attack include:

1) Win Initiative: A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act.

2) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures.

3) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap.

4) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

5) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII), reach weapon, armor spikes or spiked gauntlets.

6) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

7) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this spell on you at the start of every combat.

8) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

9) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

10) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him. The easiest way is probably the Frightful Presence (Draconomicon) or Dreadful Wrath (Player's Guide to Faerun) feats and a spell storing weapon with a Fear inducing spell.

11) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

12) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this. There are arrows in various books which hold alchemical items, so this is a (relatively) cheap way for an archer Rogue to qualify for Sneak Attack.

13) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

14) Hide in Plain Site: A dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless. Take the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness) and you can use Hide against all enemies, even those with Scent, Blindsense, etc.

15) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members or pets.

16) Net, Razor Net, Lasso, Tanglefoot bag, Entangling Exhalation feat (Races of the Dragon): Each of these is a touch attack or Ref Save that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats for the net/razor net/lasso. The touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable.

17) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat, it works for a full attack.

18) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It also doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit. WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

newbDM
2008-12-05, 02:03 AM
We seem to have diverged mightily from the original topic, though I can't see where. Anyway, the character sounds like fun, and while not someone I'd want to play, I'll consider sending him against my PC's next time I DM a new game. Could be tons of fun.


I would be honored if you did. :smallbiggrin:

I am not sure how much of challenge he would make, though.

Triaxx
2008-12-05, 11:01 AM
I don't know, we don't usually encounter class levels until 3, after the DM remembers that we play to win. Everything. 1 to 1 he'll probably take the arcanist out, since I'll use him as an end boss after most of the resources have been exhausted. Especially since I intend to throw Tucker into the mix.

newbDM
2008-12-05, 09:30 PM
I don't know, we don't usually encounter class levels until 3, after the DM remembers that we play to win. Everything. 1 to 1 he'll probably take the arcanist out, since I'll use him as an end boss after most of the resources have been exhausted. Especially since I intend to throw Tucker into the mix.

Him, and end boss?!

And by Tucker, I assume you mean Tucker's Kobolds? I wish I had you as a DM. :smallbiggrin:

If you ever do end up doing something like this, please let me know how it turns out.



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And wow. I went from a choice between two options, to not know which way to go due to so many ideas. And the game is tomorrow at 2pm.