Erfworld 131 - Wanda's Stuttering

[JaxGaret]

I have to admit that I'm not sure why Wanda is stuttering here - do we know for sure why? Is it something I'm missing? Or is it just chalked up to general battle-casting stress/fatigue?

[SteveMB]

It's apparently an aftereffect of backlash (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0093.html) from the breaking of the suggestion spell on Jillian.

[Revlid]

Mental backlash from the broken suggestion spell has resulted in her talking like SHODAN.

[DevilDan]

It's apparently an aftereffect of backlash (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0093.html) from the breaking of the suggestion spell on Jillian.

In this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0108.html), Parson sees her up and about for the first time since that incident. He asks "Are you okay?," and she replies "Speech. Z'hard."

[SteveMB]

In this page (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0108.html), Parson sees her up and about for the first time since that incident. He asks "Are you okay?," and she replies "Speech. Z'hard."

She was also uncharacteristically reduced to monosyllables when protesting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0077.html) Parson's order to croak Jillian. That might be an emotional reaction, or it might be a backlash effect; the fact that she continues to have a speech impediment suggests the latter. (Her total collapse afterward could be backlash combined with an emotional reaction to having everything -- her control over Jillian, the last apparent hope of stopping the attack, Stanley's approval -- go down in flames all at once.)

[DevilDan]

She was also uncharacteristically reduced to monosyllables when protesting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0077.html) Parson's order to croak Jillian. That might be an emotional reaction, or it might be a backlash effect; the fact that she continues to have a speech impediment suggests the latter. (Her total collapse afterward could be backlash combined with an emotional reaction to having everything -- her control over Jillian, the last apparent hope of stopping the attack, Stanley's approval -- go down in flames all at once.)
Her face prior to that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0076.html) dialog is somewhat inscrutable. I think it's just as likely that she is showing some reserve. She may be verbose when berating and humiliating others, but she may far less so when asking for something that she wants, especially given what is occurring and its importance to GK (and the emotional involvement as well). She is completely catatonic after that, so I would posit that most, if not all, of the psychic backlash had yet to hit her.

[dr pepper]

No. It's clear that she's forming a direct control link, which is taking up a lot of her concentration. After reciting the poem to remind us of her goth shaman persona, she'll stop speaking entirely.

[JaxGaret]

I would agree with you all, but you can clearly see in comic page 98 that she isn't stuttering, it's merely hard for her to speak. She said several individual words and then formed a complete sentence - "You trust my 'valuation? After..." - without stuttering. Now here she can't go more than a couple of words without stuttering.

I just thought it might be something else that I missed.

[Occasional Sage]

I would agree with you all, but you can clearly see in comic page 98 that she isn't stuttering, it's merely hard for her to speak. She said several individual words and then formed a complete sentence - "You trust my 'valuation? After..." - without stuttering. Now here she can't go more than a couple of words without stuttering.

I just thought it might be something else that I missed.

Well, she's only able to slur there, and iirc wasn't speaking in full sentences for the most part, either. If she's pushing herself to speak normally, she may be stuttering when her speech gives out.

[Another_Poet]

My theory on the stuttering when I first read it was that she was under extra stress from trying to cast magic outside of her normal school. The words she was saying sounded like Fate magic, not croakamancy, so I figured it was extra hard.

ap

[teratorn]

"You trust my 'valuation? After..." - without stuttering.

She stuttered at the big word 'valuation. She is becoming better, in this strip she also only stuttered once in a rather large number of words.

[BillyJimBoBob]

My theory on the stuttering when I first read it was that she was under extra stress from trying to cast magic outside of her normal school. The words she was saying sounded like Fate magic, not croakamancy, so I figured it was extra hard.

ap
You're correct, Mistly explained (in the strip SteveMB linked above) that had Wanda been a thinkomancer that Jillian would have taken the brunt of the backlash and would probably have died. Wanda is a croakamancer though, and while a competent caster in other schools they are not her area of interest nor specialty.

[DevilDan]

Recovering from trauma isn't a simple, straightforward process; stress or fatigue would affect how well a character can speak too. It's not as if we can just do a numerical analysis of her speech in different comics and simply use this to determine her recovery or even when she'll be fully over it, which may never be the case.

[Varthonai]

Wanda had a mild stroke, and is partially recovered.

That's the best and simplest metaphor I can think of.

[FoE]

Recovering from trauma isn't a simple, straightforward process; stress or fatigue would affect how well a character can speak too. It's not as if we can just do a numerical analysis of her speech in different comics and simply use this to determine her recovery or even when she'll be fully over it, which may never be the case.

On the other hand, your assumption based on what we know in our world to be true. Things are obviously very different in Erfworld, to the point where Wanda's coherence may be an indication of her mental fitness.

[DevilDan]

On the other hand, your assumption based on what we know in our world to be true. Things are obviously very different in Erfworld, to the point where Wanda's coherence may be an indication of her mental fitness.

Excellent point. We've no experience with this sort of affliction; like Jack's own mental problems, it did not wear of once the next turn began.

[BillyJimBoBob]

In game terms, it can be assumed to be some kind of randomly rolled result whenever certain kinds of spell are broken. Thinkamancy spells which endure beyond a single turn are all that have been shown so far. Known possible results are death (Misty), and backlash (Wanda and Jack), and no penalty (Maggie). The backlash may have a random duration, but I'm not a turn counter and will leave that up to those so inclined. :smallwink:

[Altima]

Well, people seem to be assuming that Wanda didn't know or accidentally forgot about the backlash. I, being the hopeless romantic that I am, like to think that Wanda deliberate chose not to inflict that conditioning on Jillian.

[Eisen]

Well, people seem to be assuming that Wanda didn't know or accidentally forgot about the backlash. I, being the hopeless romantic that I am, like to think that Wanda deliberate chose not to inflict that conditioning on Jillian.

I disagree. Wanda MAY have loved jillian, but she's not a sentimental. At all.

I think she was so upset and surprised by Jillian's break, and Jillian was so single-minded to achieve it, that Jillian (probably unintentionally) forced the backlash onto Wanda.

[SteveMB]

I think she was so upset and surprised by Jillian's break, and Jillian was so single-minded to achieve it, that Jillian (probably unintentionally) forced the backlash onto Wanda.

Also, it's possible that Jillian temporarily froze up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0073.html) because she did take some amount of backlash (as well as because of the emotional effect of squarely confronting the situation rather than rationalizing her way around it).

[DevilDan]

I disagree. Wanda MAY have loved jillian, but she's not a sentimental. At all.

She was "sentimental" enough to not want Jillian croaked when she fought the dwagons over the lake. On the other hand, maybe she didn't want to lose her toy.


I think she was so upset and surprised by Jillian's break, and Jillian was so single-minded to achieve it, that Jillian (probably unintentionally) forced the backlash onto Wanda.

From what I read of Maggie's analysis, the disruption of a spell of that nature would be expected to produce a backlash. I do think surprise (was Wanda's faith in part fostered by affection or sentimentality, perhaps?) is a possible reason why Wanda didn't force Jillian to take the brunt of that psychic damage, even though Maggie suggests that it was Wanda's relative inexperience.

[dr pepper]

Well, people seem to be assuming that Wanda didn't know or accidentally forgot about the backlash. I, being the hopeless romantic that I am, like to think that Wanda deliberate chose not to inflict that conditioning on Jillian.

That's my thought too, and i said so at the time.

[teratorn]

I disagree. Wanda MAY have loved jillian, but she's not a sentimental. At all.

I disagree :smallbiggrin:. Her question to Jillian ("why?"), her exchange with Ansom ('sless than what you took from me) show me she harbors deep feelings.

She's also very patient towards Parson and knows everyone's names and treats them fairly (in particular Bogroll). These are not the hallmarks of an intrinsically evil and uncaring person.

[Eisen]

I disagree :smallbiggrin:. Her question to Jillian ("why?"), her exchange with Ansom ('sless than what you took from me) show me she harbors deep feelings.

She's also very patient towards Parson and knows everyone's names and treats them fairly (in particular Bogroll). These are not the hallmarks of an intrinsically evil and uncaring person.

I interpret those moments differently. I think to Wanda, Jillian was nothing more than a pet, a toy, something to control. She loved the feeling of dominance more than the person itself. If she really loved Jillian, she wouldn't have tortured and controlled her in the manner she did.

Like with a rapist, it was all about control and domination to Wanda. It was her "high". And when Jillian broke free, Wanda lost that. More importantly, she blames Ansom, since it was Jillain's feelings for him that were the linchpin behind the break.

[Altima]

I disagree. Wanda MAY have loved jillian, but she's not a sentimental. At all.


Wanda's snuggle skull suggests otherwise. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0049.html)

[Godskook]

We know that Wanda is (a)sadistic with Jillian and (b)calculating. The scenario that she did what she did deliberately does not take into account that if she had hit Jillian with a crippling, but not croaking, blow, she could have made the case to recapture Jillian, thus sparing Jillian from Stanley's bloodlust. Wounding Jillian 'for her own good' would not have bothered Wanda at all, since (a) is true. In fact, throwing most of it on Jillian is preferable to the situation as it was*. As it was, either Jillian died or Stanley lost all the wounded. To trade that choice for a living, albeit wounded, Jillian and minimized casualties seems exactly the kind of thing Wanda would do.

Therefore, I believe that Wanda's affliction is the result of inexperience rather than choice.

*Note, Wanda's choice was made before anything about Ansom was known, so my analysis ignores him when considering Wanda's motives.

[SteveMB]

*Note, Wanda's choice was made before anything about Ansom was known

"As for his weaknesses, he is in love with our prisoner." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0043.html)

[Altima]

We know that Wanda is (a)sadistic with Jillian and (b)calculating. The scenario that she did what she did deliberately does not take into account that if she had hit Jillian with a crippling, but not croaking, blow, she could have made the case to recapture Jillian, thus sparing Jillian from Stanley's bloodlust. Wounding Jillian 'for her own good' would not have bothered Wanda at all, since (a) is true. In fact, throwing most of it on Jillian is preferable to the situation as it was*. As it was, either Jillian died or Stanley lost all the wounded. To trade that choice for a living, albeit wounded, Jillian and minimized casualties seems exactly the kind of thing Wanda would do.

Therefore, I believe that Wanda's affliction is the result of inexperience rather than choice.

*Note, Wanda's choice was made before anything about Ansom was known, so my analysis ignores him when considering Wanda's motives.

Except that it's likely that the lethality of the backlash could not be 'scaled'. Misty died from the backlash, while Jack was turned into an adder-brained fool. Wouldn't you think that the professional Thinkamancer would've tried to keep them both alive? In fact, she herself is not feeling any of the effects. It's possible that there are no more options other than "backlash on subject" and "backlash on you."

It's also likely that the casters have an even greater resistance to mental trauma, and that a brute like Jillian would suffer even greater damage due to the mental nature of the backlash (and making her more vulnerable to Thinkamancer-based magicks). If this is the case, the backlash would have certainly killed her.

[Godskook]

"As for his weaknesses, he is in love with our prisoner." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0043.html)

C'mon, give me a little more credit.

Ok, let me rephrase: "Her decision was made before she became aware of Ansom joining the fight."

[DevilDan]

Except that it's likely that the lethality of the backlash could not be 'scaled'. Misty died from the backlash, while Jack was turned into an adder-brained fool. Wouldn't you think that the professional Thinkamancer would've tried to keep them both alive?

I would theorize that the backlash from a suggestion spell is far less than the potential backlash generated by a fearsomely complex and dangerous spell like the eyemancer melding, which was perilously fragile even under normal conditions. I'd be quite wary of comparing these two thinkamancy spells.

[Eisen]

I would theorize that the backlash from a suggestion spell is far less than the potential backlash generated by a fearsomely complex and dangerous spell like the eyemancer melding, which was perilously fragile even under normal conditions. I'd be quite wary of comparing these two thinkamancy spells.

Add to it that Jack was a brilliant and capable Foolamancer, whereas Misty is an unknown. Given Maggie and Jack's competency we assume she was a strong caster, but no clue if she's on their level of mastery. Perhaps, being the weaker or the two hit with the backlash, she was more vulnerable and thus, suffered more.

Or perhaps Jack attempted to and partially suceeded in throwing off the backlash, giving Misty that much more to face herself.

[DevilDan]

Add to it that Jack was a brilliant and capable Foolamancer, whereas Misty is an unknown. Given Maggie and Jack's competency we assume she was a strong caster, but no clue if she's on their level of mastery. Perhaps, being the weaker or the two hit with the backlash, she was more vulnerable and thus, suffered more.

Or perhaps Jack attempted to and partially suceeded in throwing off the backlash, giving Misty that much more to face herself.

Or he simply has a higher constitution. Or maybe they rolled on a table for damage.

[Xiander]

I would theorize that the backlash from a suggestion spell is far less than the potential backlash generated by a fearsomely complex and dangerous spell like the eyemancer melding, which was perilously fragile even under normal conditions. I'd be quite wary of comparing these two thinkamancy spells.

To be fair, that didn't need to be a comparison of the two spells to make a point. The point is that the same spell caused different backlash results on two different persons both participating in it.

Take that into account whith the suggestion spell that send wanda out of comission for a good time and there is no certain way of saying wether Jillian could survive the backlash.

That said i am not really betting on either theory. For now i'll wait and watch.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Well, people seem to be assuming that Wanda didn't know or accidentally forgot about the backlash. I, being the hopeless romantic that I am, like to think that Wanda deliberate chose not to inflict that conditioning on Jillian.Wanda didn't think that either one of them would ever endure any backlash. Wanda stated repeatedly that there was no way Jillian could 'break' the spell. If the spell never breaks, there is never any backlash.