Useful Blackguard?

[Albonor]

With all these paladin threads, I remembered i was looking for something: a powerfull blackguard figure.

The Blackguard PrC is, in my opinion, very weak and merely an equivalent to multiclassing to evil paladin. Worse, i wanted to create champion of the devils and demon and, since these guys will be fighting evils folks as often as good (if not more, Bloodwar, doublecrossing ,etc) some abilities like smite good or detect good seem completely useless.

Now, I found the Scourge of Chaos PrC in a Dragonlance MM that does the trick for a CE blackguard and the Ordained Champion can also do the trick for a LE one (CChampion). But, other than a Crusader (very efficient I know) or a pious templar, what other solutions did you guys find to the baaaaaad Blackguard? I seems to me that it is a PrC designed solely for Death knights. all other evils are more rationnal, or at least have some objectives that make the classe useless.

[hamishspence]

Divine Champion from Faerun? Like a prestige class paladin, execept every deity can have them.

[Gaiwecoor]

One of my favorites that actually uses Blackguard is the fallen Shadowbane Inquisitor (C. Ad). Inquisitor levels stack with paladin levels for the extra Blackguard benefits, but you don't lose the class features. If you're going for a high level blackguard, you can take Rogue 1 / Paladin 6 / Shadowbane Inquisitor 9 before you fall ... You'll count as a Paladin 11+, allowing you to swap your paladin levels for Blackguard. Ultimately, you end up with Rogue 1 / Shadowbane Inquisitor 9 / Blackguard 10. This, with all of the abilities of a fallen paladin 9 added in and no empty paladin levels (effectively giving you double class features for Inquisitor).

[Keld Denar]

Bleh, hit the back button and lost my whole post....

Anyway, Blackguard isn't a total loss mechanically. The worst thing about it is the prereqs. Power Attack is good, should be pretty standard in almost any melee build, and Cleave is ok, situationally useful, but Improved Sunder? Blech! Not a fun feat.

It does have some redeeming qualities though. Aura of Dispair is awesome. Just standing next to someone, you make it easier for your party to shut em down. Then they get Rebuke Undead, which is normally crap, but since you already have PA to get into BG, you are 1 feat away from taking Divine Might to get +cha on all your attacks. Sneak attack is also situationally useful, but it does qualify you to take Craven for another big kicker in damage. The +cha to saves is also pretty decent.

Check out this build I put together...

Human
Grave Touched Ghoul 2 (Libris Mortis Template)
Hexblade4 (gains Mettle, +cha to saves vs spells, Dark Companion ACF)
Marshall2 (get +cha to initiative, +1 attack rolls for party)
Blackguard10 (get +cha to saves, Rebuke, Aura of Dispair, Sneak Attack)
Anything 2-4, depending if you can buy off GTG.

Stats go cha > str > dex > wis > int > con=0

Feats would be from 1
1 Power Attack, Cleave
3 Improved Sunder
5 Skill Focus: Diplomacy (lol?)
6 Ability Focus (paralysis)
9 Rapid Strike
12 Divine Might
15 Improved Rapid Strike
18 Craven

Combat starts with you winning init probably, thanks to your +cha to init. Your free action is to move your Dark Companion over your foe, your swift action is to Hex your foe (using the rebalanced Hexblade rules on the wizards site), and then partial charge. Attack with your bite, and you should hit, because your foe has -2 AC from Dark Companion, Aura of Dispair, and Hex, and then they have to make a fort save. Your DC is 12 + 1/2 HD + cha modifier because you took Ability Focus. Then you factor in that your foe gets -6 to their save from your debuffing, and you are looking at a DC of 18 + 1/2 HD + cha. At about level 10, when most of your abilities come into being, assuming a Cha of 28 (start with a 20 thanks to GTG's +2, +2 level bumps, +6 cha cloak), thats an effective DC of 18 + 5 + 9 = 32. Most things in the CR10-12 range can't even make that save on a nat20. Your foe is now paralyzed for 1d6+1 rounds, during which you can full attack with Divine Might, 4 claws and a bite. That should either kill em, or at least force 5 more saves to refresh the paralysis duration. You can munch on them good then.

Defense wise, you get 2x cha to saves (+18 at level 10) so between mettle and undead traits, you'll be pretty close to immune to non-orb spells. You'll probably only take 1/2 damage from most evocations and you can prep resist energy as a BG spell if you are really scared. Anything that melees with you stands a good chance of getting paralyzed unless its an elf, plant, construct, or similar.

[mikeejimbo]

How are evil Clerics? I think Clerics are generally considered decent, and could uphold the type of character for which you seek.

[Xefas]

I use Krimm Blackleaf's homebrewed Crusader of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69427) for all my Blackguard needs. It's essentially a Martial Initiator Blackguard with a less interesting name.

[AslanCross]

The LE version of Fax Celestis's mantle paladin would work well IMO. That's what I've used for some of my villains. Evil Crusader works too.

I agree that the stock Blackguard's requirements are rather crappy. Improved Sunder? Why? D: "You're better at breaking stuff than other people and are therefore more evil!" ? :smallconfused:

[Narmoth]

Well, the Blackguard has the very useful Sneak Attack, which (at least to my dms rulings) can be used when flanking. Position yourself so you flank, and suddenly a lot more of damage. I play a lvl 6 Paladin / lvl 4 Blackguard, and get 2d6 extra dmg on my sneak attacks in addition to the damage by the greatsword I carry. But beside of that, I'd rather play the same character as a falling paladin rather than a fallen one (I could manage to do the same either way)

[Shpadoinkle]

Well, the Blackguard has the very useful Sneak Attack, which (at least to my dms rulings) can be used when flanking. Position yourself so you flank, and suddenly a lot more of damage. I play a lvl 6 Paladin / lvl 4 Blackguard, and get 2d6 extra dmg on my sneak attacks in addition to the damage by the greatsword I carry. But beside of that, I'd rather play the same character as a falling paladin rather than a fallen one (I could manage to do the same either way)

By the RAW, anyone with Sneak Attack gets to add it when flanking.

[AslanCross]

Speaking of Blackguard, is there an alternative Fiendish servant list out there in the same way that the Druid has alternative animal companions?

[Narmoth]

By the RAW, anyone with Sneak Attack gets to add it when flanking.

Yes, I expect it to be that way, but I have only read the rules directly linked to my character, as I don't dm 3rd or 4th ed

[RTGoodman]

Ten replies and no one has mentioned the Variant Paladins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) (of Tyranny and Slaughter, specifically)? Shame on you, Playgrounders... :smallwink:

In all seriousness, I like the Evil Paladin variants from there, and I've used them before for characters that are basically Blackguards without the PrC. I think you could probably use it and Hexblade in a similar build to the one Keld Denar posted to make a rather good anti-paladin style character.

[Xefas]

Speaking of Blackguard, is there an alternative Fiendish servant list out there in the same way that the Druid has alternative animal companions?

The only thing I can think of is the Lesser Nightmare from the Planar Handbook (I think?). I don't have my books with me, but if I recall correctly, a Blackguard could acquire a Lesser Nightmare as a steed much like an alternate Druid animal companion.

[Stephen_E]

It;s a bit convoluted and requires 2 houserules, but both houserules are pretty simple and logical (replacing the Blackguard class for the Paladin class)

Play a Druid/Beastmaster 1/Blackguard 5
From Comp Adventurer take Natural Bond (+3 Druid level for Animal Comp purposes)
Modify Devoted Tracker (also CA)- Allows a Paladins Mount to also be a Rangers Animal Companion, and have a Blackguards Feindish Servant also be his Beatmasters Animal Comp.
Take Leadership to make your Fiendish Servant also be your Cohort as per Paladins and Cohorts pg202? in DMG.

Thus your Druid/Beastmaster Animal Companion is also your Fiendish Servant AND your Cohort. Once you have the 5th Blackguard level your companion gains HD twice as fast as you do -
For every 3 following Druid levels you gain, your Animal Companion gets
2 bonus HD for Animal Companion
2 Bonus HD for Fiendish Servant
3 Cohort class levels

Also Blackguard and Druid both have Wis as their casting stat.
This can also work for Arcane Heirophant (Races of Wild) but is harder on the Stat requirements, in exchange for having a truly vast array of spells of slightly lower level (there is also another feat from Dragon that can be used to give you another 2 bonus HD per 3 AH levels).

Stephen E

[Vexxation]

I could see a Pixie Warlock / Blackguard being very entertaining.
Awesome Charisma synergy, and even if you can't buy off LA you can be an at-will flying (greater) invisible Blackguard with a Glaive of Sneak attack-y death...

It'd be feat-starved, but I guess you could just Embrace and Shun Dodge and/or Finesse.

[mabriss lethe]

It isn't a solution to every problem, but to just enough of them to make the class amazing.

Binder/Knight of the Sacred Seal? Pick up Tenebrous, Focalor, Andras, and Andromalius as you increase in level to replicate a decent number of the blackguard's abilities.

Tenebrous gives you rebuking, extra damage and shadow/darkness related abilites, Focalor is Aura of Despair, and the ability to call down lightning and blind your foes, Andras gives you some nasty weapon skills, smite good and evil, the ability to force your foes to fight one another and a mount, Andromalius gives you Sneak attack and Tasha's Hideous laughter. Note that most of thses abilities are at will.

The best part is that you can ditch any or all of these abilities and replace them with whatever you like from among the powers of other vestiges.

[Person_Man]

Blackguard is actually a great class - at exactly ECL 11. Go Paladin 11. At Paladin 11, fall from grace. Trade in your Paladin levels for Blackguard levels. You are now a Fallen Paladin 1/Blackguard 10.

Think about it - at ECL 11, you have full BAB, 4th level spells (the same as a Bard of the same ECL), 3d6 Sneak Attack, a Fiendish Servant, great Saves, etc. That's pretty potent.

Of course, when you gain additional levels, your spells and servant and whatnot become a lot less useful. But for a few gaming sessions, you're a great build.

[Tengu_temp]

Just like every time someone wants a better paladin, people mention a LG crusader, this time when someone wants a better blackguard I will mention a LE crusader.

[Human Paragon 3]

Another advantage of sneak attack is that it opens up sneak attack feats for you. Staggering Strike is insanely useful, as is raising strike in the right situation. There are actually a slew of sneak attack feats that can boost your baddassery. Check complete adventurer, PHBII and Complete Scoundrel for the best ones.

[Keld Denar]

Another advantage of sneak attack is that it opens up sneak attack feats for you. Staggering Strike is insanely useful, as is raising strike in the right situation. There are actually a slew of sneak attack feats that can boost your baddassery. Check complete adventurer, PHBII and Complete Scoundrel for the best ones.

Power Attack + 1d6 SA means you qualify for massive Staggering Strikes DCs. Its a good thing!

[Kaiyanwang]

Further, if you have both a fiendish and a undead servant, you can sneak attack more because you flank more.

[Oslecamo]

Just like every time someone wants a better paladin, people mention a LG crusader, this time when someone wants a better blackguard I will mention a LE crusader.

Check the OP again. He said he had already considered a crusader but wanted something else.

Personally speaking, the blackguard can be quite good, it's mostly a matter of cheesing out the servant, add in the blackguard spells from spell compendium and you can get something quite potent.

However, the blackguardis intended to be someone specialized in fighting the forces of good just as the paladin is in fighting the forces of evil.


If you want a more generic selfish villain who goes around backstabbing other villains, you can just pick one of the many powerfull evil demons/devils out there, give him a couple melee class levels, equipment and go to town.

[Person_Man]

Also, it's worth mentioning that Sunder does have one uber useful application. Most casters can't cast without their component pouch or holy symbol. So the very first attack against any caster should be a Sunder attempt. Since you already have to take Improved Sunder, you might as well invest in the Ranged Sunder feat (Complete Warrior) as well, and buy some blunt adamantine arrows. On the first round use a bow and a full attack to Sunder all their required caster stuff, and then on the second round Charge in for the kill with Power Attack, Sneak Attack, and Staggering Strike.

[Keld Denar]

Also, it's worth mentioning that Sunder does have one uber useful application. Most casters can't cast without their component pouch or holy symbol. So the very first attack against any caster should be a Sunder attempt.

This is true. If you want to go with a melee sunder, check out the tactical feat Combat Brute from CWarrior. Its got 3 abilities, but the 2 that are really amazing are Sundering Cleave, which you can use with Person_Man's idea of aiming for holy symbols/spell pouches, and then cleave into the wielder of that item, and Momentum Swing, which allows you to get very nice returns on your PA the round after charging someone while PAing. As long as you've gone that far, one more feat probably won't kill ya.

[AslanCross]

Also, it's worth mentioning that Sunder does have one uber useful application. Most casters can't cast without their component pouch or holy symbol. So the very first attack against any caster should be a Sunder attempt. Since you already have to take Improved Sunder, you might as well invest in the Ranged Sunder feat (Complete Warrior) as well, and buy some blunt adamantine arrows. On the first round use a bow and a full attack to Sunder all their required caster stuff, and then on the second round Charge in for the kill with Power Attack, Sneak Attack, and Staggering Strike.

Wow, never thought of that.

Anyway, anyone have thoughts on the Bone Knight PrC from Eberron? It's another blackguard-ish class.