PDA

View Full Version : [4e] Bringing benders to 4th edition



Pirate_King
2008-12-03, 02:42 PM
So after playing some 4e, I think it's time to start the project of creating 4e powers for the benders from the MASSIVE AVATAR PROJECT (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67493). I'll begin with my old favorite, the
FIREBENDER
Class traits:
Role: Striker. By creating your own fire, you empower weapon attacks, increase your mobility, and incinerate your foes from a far.
Power source: Elemental. By meditating on the sun, controlling your breath, and concentrating on sources of heat, you turn martial prowess in to control over the element of fire
Key Abilities: Wisdom, Dexterity, Strength
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple light blades, simple heavy blades

Implements:
There is a problem inherent in 4e's dependency on items and the bender's general lack of use for them. Since even magic has implements and works like everyone else's combat, I was trying to think of a new sort of implement that would make bending powers more potent, and make the class playable in a non-avatar setting. With 3.x it's easy enough, since you can mostly play them like a sort of monk. My idea is to give them holy symbols of some kind to be used as an implement, perhaps giving them a connection to the spirit world or the forces of nature that gives them strength. This is more of a problem with water and air benders, who have fewer weapon proficiencies, but I thought I'd address it now.
Bonus to Defense: +1 fortitude, +1 Reflex

Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 6 + Constitution modifier

Bending skill in 4e
The bending skill and the knowledge bending skill can either be made a new skill or be condensed into Arcana, or perhaps nature. Bending skill challenges are something I still need to work out...
Trained Skills: Bending. From the class skills list below,
choose three more trained skills at 1st level
Endurance, Intimidate, Acrobatics, Athletics, Insight, Nature

Firebender Class Options: True Firebender, Military Firebender

True Firebender: You forgo the use of weapons, and your flames are an extension of your body. You gain a +3 proficiency bonus to unarmed strikes, which can be applied to Fire Blast attack rolls, as well as certain other powers.

Military Firebender: Fire is a tool to strengthen your attacks. You gain proficiency in military light and heavy blades, crossbows, and hide armor.

Class Features: Fire Blast, Child of the Sun, Manipulate Flame

Fire Blast
All Firebenders have the Fireblast at-will power. Fireblast can be used as a basic Ranged attack.

Child of the Sun
Firebenders gain their power from sources of heat, the greatest being the sun. When in sunlight, or near a significant source of heat, a True Firebender gains a +1 to ranged attack rolls with the Elemental Keyword, and Military Firebenders gain a +1 to melee attack rolls with the elemental Keyword. Additionally, any power with the fire keyword deals +1 fire damage. These bonuses increase by 1 at each tier.

Manipulate Flame
A Firebender can manipulate fires such as lanterns, open flames, or burning objects using the bending skill (or whatever skill is decided that bending falls under)

Fire Resistance
A Firebender gains 5 fire resistance at heroic tier, 10 at paragon, and 15 and epic, but loses this benefit when granting combat advantage

Firebender is level 2 - ready, time to start work on the
Waterbender
Role: Leader. A good waterbender is conscious of the natural ebb and flow of all things, including the battlefield.
Power Source: Elemental. By emulating the Moon's push and pull against water, Waterbenders tap into both water's furious power and healing potential.
Key Abilities: Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution
Armor Proficiencies:Cloth, Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: simple melee
Bonus to defense: +1 Reflex, +1 Will

HP at first level:12+Constitution Score
HP gained per level: 5
Healing Surges per day: 8 + Constitution Modifier

Trained Skills: Bending. Choose three more skills from the options below:
Athletics, Diplomacy, Heal, Endurance, Perception

Waterbender class options:

Moon Spirit Waterbender: You focus on the furious potential of water, and the control your powers give you over the battle field reflect that. Any power that causes a target to move may push, pull, or slide that target an additional number of squares up to your constitution modifier

Ocean Spirit Waterbender: You focus on the healing potential of water. Any power with the healing keyword heals an additional number of hitpoints equal to your wisdom modifier.

Class Features

Water Blast
All Waterbenders gain the Water Blast At-Will power, and may use it as a basic ranged attack

Child of the Moon
Waterbenders draw much of their power from the moon. During the night, waterbenders gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls to powers with the Water Keyword. This bonus increases by 1 at each tier

Manipulate Water
A Waterbender may manipulate sources of water, ice, and vapor, by use of the bending skill.

Water Walk
A Waterbender is capable of moving through water and over ice and snow at a greater rate than others. When Swimming, a successful waterbending check allows her to swim 3/4 of her speed, and she does not need to make any check to swim half her speed. At paragon tier, a successful check allows her to move her whole speed, and at epic tier, it allows her to move her speed and a half. The same applies to difficult terrain that consists of ice or snow.

Pirate_King
2008-12-03, 02:48 PM
Firebender Powers
Level 1 At-Will Powers

Fireblast Firebender attack 1
You release a jet of flame from your fist
At-will * Elemental, Fire, (Implement)
Standard Action Ranged 10
Attack: Dexterity vs Reflex
Hit: 1d10 + Dexterity modifier Fire Damage
Increase to 2d10 + Dexterity modifier Fire Damage at 21st level
True Firebender: add +3 proficiency bonus to the attack roll

Channel Flame Firebender attack 1
Your weapons are wreathed in flames as you attack
At-Will * Elemental, Fire, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon or unarmed strike
Target: One Creature
Attack: Str vs AC
Hit: 1[W] untyped damage + 1d6 fire damage
Increase to 2[W] + 2d6 fire damage at 21st level
Military Firebender: Deal an additional untyped damage equal to your strength modifier.


Firewhip Firebender attack 1
A long, narrow tongue of flame is released from your fingertips
At-Will * Elemental, Fire, (Implement)
Standard Action Ranged 3
Requirements: You must have a free hand to use this attack
Target: one Creature
Attack Dex vs AC
Hit: 1d4 fire damage and whenever the target attacks, moves or is moved until the start of your next turn, it takes damage equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Increase to 2d4 damage at 21st level


Flashfire Firebender attack 1
You distract your foe with a bright flame to gain better footing
At-Will *Elemental, Fire, (Implement)
Standard Action Melee
Target: One Creature
Attack: Dexterity vs Fortitude
Hit: 1d6 + Dexterity modifier fire damage
Effect: You may shift one square. The targeted creature may not make an opportunity attack, even if it has a power that allows it to do so against a shifting creature.
Increase to 2d6 + Dexterity modifier fire damage at 21st level

Level 1 Encounter Powers

Fire Kick Firebender attack 1
You release a powerful fireblast from a spinning kick
Encounter * Elemental, Fire, (implement)
Standard Action Ranged 15
Target: 1 Creature
Special: you may not use this attack while immobilized or restrained
Attack: Dexterity vs Reflex
Hit:2d10 + Dexterity modifier fire damage
True Firebender: Add +3 proficiency bonus to attack roll


Fire Sweep Firebender attack 1
You ungulf nearby foes in a wide burst of flame
Encounter * Elemental, Fire, (Implement)
Standard Action Blast 3
Target: Each Creature in blast
Attack: Dexterity vs Reflex
Hit: 2d6 + wisdom modifier fire damage
True Firebender: Add +3 proficiency bonus to attack roll


(name for an evasive fire attack) Firebender attack 1
You use fire as a distraction to gain extra mobility
Encounter * Elemental, Fire, Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target:1 creature
Special: You may shift before or after the attack
Attack: Strength vs AC
Hit: 2[w] + strength modifier untyped damage + 1d6 fire damage
Military Firebender: You may shift a number of squares equal to your wisdom equal to your wisdom modifier


Brushfire Blade Firebender attack 1
You lash out with a wild spinning attack
Encounter * Elemental, Fire, Weapon
Standard Action Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Str vs Reflex
Hit: 1[W] + strength modifier untyped damage + 1d6 Fire damage
Military Firebender: If you are prone, then this attack can be used to stand up

Level 1 Daily Powers

Searing Blade Firebender attack 1
You channel both physical and elemental energy into your weapon for a devastating blow that sets your foe ablaze
Daily * Elemental, Fire, Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target:1 creature
Attack: Strength vs AC
Hit: 2[w] + strength modifier untyped damage, and 5 + wisdom modifier ongoing fire damage (save ends)
Miss: Half damage, wisdom modifier fire damage, and no ongoing fire damage

Guided Torch Firebender attack 1
You manipulate an orb of flame, detonating it at just the right moment
Daily *Elemental, Fire, (Implement)
Standard Action Area burst 1 within 10 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Dex vs Reflex
Hit: 2d8 + Dexterity modifier fire damage
Miss: half damage
True Firebender: Each hit creature takes 5 ongoing fire damage, missed creatures take 2 ongoing fire damage

Flying Dragon Kick Firebender attack 1
You launch yourself at your enemy, striking with a deadly kick
Daily * Elemental, Fire, (Implement)
Standard Action Melee
Special: This attack must be used with a charge, with this power being used in place of the basic attack at the end of the charge
Target: One Creature
Attack: Dexterity vs AC
Hit: 1d6+strength modifier untyped damage + 2d6 fire damage, and the target is pushed a number of squares equal to your wisdom modifier
Miss: Half damage, target is not pushed

Blazing Burst Firebender attack 1
Enemies that surround you can't withstand the heat
Daily * Elemental, Fire, (Implement)
Standard Action Close burst 2
Target: Each Creature in burst
Attack: Wisdom vs Fortitude
Hit: 3d6 fire damage, ongoing fire damage equal to your wisdom modifier(save ends)
Miss: half damage, no ongoing fire damage.
Effect: If you are grabbed, you escape from the grab

Level 2 Utility Powers

Invigorating Flame Firebender utility 2
Your inner heat gives you the drive to continue the fight
Daily * Elemental, Healing
Minor action Personal
Effect: You spend a healing surge and gain a +2 power bonus to attack rolls and fire damage until the end of your next turn

Burning Rush Firebender utility 2
You gain a burst of speed by expelling a jet of flame from your feet
Encounter * Elemental
Move Action Personal
Effect: You shift your speed, and this movement ignores difficult terrain

Hot blooded Firebender utility 2
By drawing power from your own heat, you can shake off certain effects
Encounter * Elemental, Fire
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You may make a save with a bonus equal to your wisdom modifier against one of the following conditions: Immobilized, Slowed, or ongoing cold damage

Firebender utility 2



Waterbender Powers
They'll be posted eventually...


Powers posted as I come up with them.

KKL
2008-12-03, 03:36 PM
Implements are somewhat simple.

Your fists count as a +3 Prof 1d8 Damage - Range, Price, and Weight Weapon in the Unarmed Group, with no special properties at the moment, but can be decided by you later (I suggest Heavy Thrown). The Implements of course, would be your unarmed attacks, sans proficiency bonus. Or if you wanted to, since not all Firebenders used their hands to toss aorund fire, have the weapon they are currently wielding be their implement.

For enhancement purposes, your fists could either be enchanted via rituals, or you could add an intrinsic +1 bonus for every 5 levels (1, 6, 11, etc.). As the player would probably want special properties, I can suggest the former ritual method, or a Bender specific ritual (A short one) that allows the Bender to add or replace a weapon's property to his fists by destroying it. The ritual would be free.

As for skills, the new skill approach would be much better.

Child of the Sun's attack bonus should be limited to Fire keyworded attacks, and reduced to 1, increasing by 1 per tier. Although it's perfectly fine the way it is.

I dunno if you've already planned this, but the two options for the Firebender could be ranged and melee, the former emphasizing on Dex/Wis, while the latter focused on Str/Wis. As for how they're different, I leave that to you.

Also a method to circumvent Fire Resistance would be very nice, since lots of enemies resist fire. I dunno how many are immune, though.

Human Paragon 3
2008-12-03, 03:56 PM
Right.

Like fighters and warlords, the benders can use weapons as an implement, and unarmed strikes are considered weapons.

Waterbenders and Earthbenders can also use Water and Earth as implements and obtain enchanted water/flasks etc or gloves like the dai li to improve their bending.

Airbenders can use weapons, esepcially staffs, as their implements to both fight, dodge, and harness their bending.

Enlong
2008-12-03, 10:52 PM
Heh. The Implement System actually works really well for airbenders, if you think about it.

Questions:

-What will be the Paragon Paths for the Benders?
-Is Metalbending a paragon path, epic destiny, or feat?
-How will various "styles" of bending, such as sandbending and Foggy Swamp Style waterbending be represented? Paragon Paths? "branches" of regular class development, like the Warlock's pacts?
-What of the Avatar?

Pirate_King
2008-12-04, 12:13 AM
Thanks for your help so far, I should have all the level 1 powers and possible the level 2 utilities up by tomorrow night. Next week is finals week, though, so I won't post anything else until I go home for winter.


Heh. The Implement System actually works really well for airbenders, if you think about it.

Questions:

-What will be the Paragon Paths for the Benders?
-Is Metalbending a paragon path, epic destiny, or feat?
-How will various "styles" of bending, such as sandbending and Foggy Swamp Style waterbending be represented? Paragon Paths? "branches" of regular class development, like the Warlock's pacts?
-What of the Avatar?
Metalbending will probably be specific epic tier powers.

Bending styles would make sense mechanic-wise to be paragon paths, but canon-wise, I don't imagine sand benders or foggy swamp benders to be of a paragon level (except maybe for Hu). I'll probably do a little bit of both, then, making sand bending a different sort of build for earth-benders, and making a plant-bending paragon path, and suchlike things.

I actually have an idea for the Avatar: either starting from first level or making it a paragon path, The Avatar has the class features of one bending class, but can take powers from any of the other bending classes every time he gains a level that he learns a power at.

Draz74
2008-12-04, 02:05 AM
-Is Metalbending a paragon path, epic destiny, or feat?

I would vote "feat," based on her early uses where she pretty much is just Earthbending a different substance; but later on it starts to get stylized more into what feels more like specific powers (e.g. the powersuit in the finale episode). So I guess I have to vote epic-tier powers, too.


-How will various "styles" of bending, such as sandbending and Foggy Swamp Style waterbending be represented? Paragon Paths? "branches" of regular class development, like the Warlock's pacts?

... especially the Healing branch of Waterbending, since it obviously makes the bender a Leader role. Are all waterbenders Leaders? Or only the healers? Can 4e classes fill 2 class roles depending on what powers they pick? Or are Waterbenders Strikers, with an optional Leader semi-role if they pick the healing "branch of development"?

Enlong
2008-12-04, 02:11 AM
I would vote "feat," based on her early uses where she pretty much is just Earthbending a different substance; but later on it starts to get stylized more into what feels more like specific powers (e.g. the powersuit in the finale episode). So I guess I have to vote epic-tier powers, too.



... especially the Healing branch of Waterbending, since it obviously makes the bender a Leader role. Are all waterbenders Leaders? Or only the healers? Can 4e classes fill 2 class roles depending on what powers they pick? Or are Waterbenders Strikers, with an optional Leader semi-role if they pick the healing "branch of development"?
That one's simple: They're Controllers with the secondary class direction of Leader, just like a Paladin is a Defender with Leader tendancies, and a Warlock is a Striker with Controller tendencies.

Pirate_King
2008-12-04, 02:39 AM
I would vote "feat," based on her early uses where she pretty much is just Earthbending a different substance; but later on it starts to get stylized more into what feels more like specific powers (e.g. the powersuit in the finale episode). So I guess I have to vote epic-tier powers, too.



Makes sense; a feat that would allow certain lower level powers to be used with metal, and epic powers that are unique to metal bending, perhaps. Firebender at-wills are up, by the way. I'm sort of worried that channel flame is a bit broken, since it sort of emulates a flaming weapon. Firewhip's mixed damage is based on the original seed from our 3.5 version, where it dealt 1d6 damage, half fire and half slashing. I upped the damage a bit, but I don't think it's broken for 4e standards, and allows bypassing fire resistance problems early on.

KKL
2008-12-04, 02:43 AM
Channel Flame doesn't add str mod to attacks, and doesn't increase to 2[W] at epic?

Also, as is, Fire Whip and Flashfire seem sort of underwhelming. An interesting change to Fire Whip would be to have it be just 1d4+wis fire damage, but a minor action.

Aside from that, they look peachy.

Pirate_King
2008-12-04, 03:03 AM
Channel Flame doesn't add str mod to attacks, and doesn't increase to 2[W] at epic?



I figured it made more sense to increase the fire damage instead of the weapon damage at epic. Should I up the damage die on the fire damage instead?

KKL
2008-12-04, 03:49 AM
As it is, Firebenders don't have an extra dice mechanic, as the Ranger (Hunter's Quarry) and Rogue (Sneak Attack) do.

So it is by this reasoning that I find that increasing the overall power of the at-wills would certainly help more.

And now I know that funny feeling it gives me, Channel Flame is mechanically similar to the Barbarian's Howling Strike whose hit line is as follows:

Hit: 1[W] + 1d6 + Strength modifier damage.
Increase damage to 1[W] + 2d6 + Strength modifier at 11th level and to 2[W] + 3d6 + Strength modifier at 21st level.

PS: Do it. You know you want to.

Pirate_King
2008-12-04, 01:56 PM
I added more damage to channel flame, but I'm not sure how I feel about making firewhip a minor action. Is there something to make it what it needs to be, that is an at-will standard attack to give the firebender a sense of variety?

Lv1 encounters, a couple dailies, and a utility are up for critique

Human Paragon 3
2008-12-04, 02:03 PM
I added more damage to channel flame, but I'm not sure how I feel about making firewhip a minor action. Is there something to make it what it needs to be, that is an at-will standard attack to give the firebender a sense of variety?

Lv1 encounters, a couple dailies, and a utility are up for critique

Make it target Ref and affect creatures in a 3 square line.

Breath of Fire should be a utility as well that lets you end certain ongoing effects (like slow, daze, or immobilized). Thinking of Zuko in Siege of the Northern Water Tribe Part 1.

Also, how about some moves that knock opponents prone like Zuko uses against Zhao in the agni kai?

I think the fire kick is a bit extreme with range of 20.

Also, I feel like part of the 'feel' of fire is that it effects an area. I would change some abilities (or give them some abilities) that effect a line, blast or burst.

Pirate_King
2008-12-04, 04:54 PM
Make it target Ref and affect creatures in a 3 square line.

Breath of Fire should be a utility as well that lets you end certain ongoing effects (like slow, daze, or immobilized). Thinking of Zuko in Siege of the Northern Water Tribe Part 1.

Also, how about some moves that knock opponents prone like Zuko uses against Zhao in the agni kai?

I think the fire kick is a bit extreme with range of 20.

Also, I feel like part of the 'feel' of fire is that it effects an area. I would change some abilities (or give them some abilities) that effect a line, blast or burst.

I don't know about making firewhip a line attack, it's just not the same sort of thing. I'm definitely adding walls and other area effects for later levels. I still want to make the firebender primarily a striker with controller tendencies. I figured the range on firekick was reasonable, especially since wizards have a range 20 for an at-will. would 15 be more balanced?

Also, all level one stuff is up!

llamamushroom
2008-12-04, 08:00 PM
I have an idea on the Avatar issue, but it does sort of lose the flavour of 'you're born the most powerful Bender'.

A bit of set-up: somehow mark each of the different powers (say, a basic shape), and then, in each of the bender's lists, make a power of similar power-level and 'flavour'. The Avatar is then an Epic Destiny, whose main power is "You can substitute any power you can use for another one of the same mark in a different bender's list". This means that you could only use 1 'triangle' 1st level encounter power per encounter, but it could either be Fire Sweep, Water Throw, Stone Heave or Gust. Obviously, they'd be much better than those examples (except for Fire Sweep; that's cool), but you get the picture. They could also use any of the basic At Wills, but I'm not sure if they should get all class abilities.

Perhaps they learn different class abilities as they increase in level? Say, their first level in Avatar gives them 'Supreme Bending', 3rd level gives them their 'allied' element's class abilities, 5th level their ally's opposition, and 7th level their opposing element?

Shadow_Elf
2008-12-04, 09:44 PM
I get the impression that this is going to be a very unhappy class. One Efreeti or Red Dragon and your character is doomed :smallfrown:.

Reverent-One
2008-12-04, 09:51 PM
I get the impression that this is going to be a very unhappy class. One Efreeti or Red Dragon and your character is doomed :smallfrown:.

Which would rather accurate. Firebenders bend fire. That's about it. More advanced benders may also be able to use lightning, but most all rely on the firebending.

Vadin
2008-12-04, 10:06 PM
Fire, weapons, unarmed strikes, probably some lightning damage, maybe half thunder damage on some of his more 'explodey' attacks. His primary attacks would be fire, of course, but that's not to say he wouldn't be able to deal other types of damage as well.

Meek
2008-12-04, 10:48 PM
Fire, weapons, unarmed strikes, probably some lightning damage, maybe half thunder damage on some of his more 'explodey' attacks. His primary attacks would be fire, of course, but that's not to say he wouldn't be able to deal other types of damage as well.

I agree, an explosion could certainly cause thunder damage (not to be confused with electricity!) or even some untyped damage from the force or impact (especially if it pushes as part of the power). Also, a few [W] powers that deal ongoing 5 fire damage or something as an aftereffect, but that do base damage rather than fire damage with the weapon. All these can fit the flavor of the firebender without leaving it at the mercy of fire immune or resistant creatures.

Also, there are a few powers (Warlock Dark Pact for example) that come with "ignores resistance" clauses. And there's nothing more badass than burning a fire resistance guy so hard he...well, burns.

Enlong
2008-12-04, 11:26 PM
Like killing a Fire elemental with fire!

Well, OK, we don't have any Fire Elementals yet, but you get my drift.
(seriously, four paraelementals, but no straight elementals?) but I digress.

Pirate_King
2008-12-05, 09:35 AM
It should be noted that some of these attacks already do both untyped and fire damage, so the firebender is not entirely powerless against foes with fire resistance. Thanks for the differentiation between thunder and lightning damage, I'll definitely keep that in mind for the explosion attacks. Lightning will almost definitely not be available until the paragon tier.

I figure bypassing resistance shouldn't something that a bender is capable of until paragon levels, unless anyone can provide me with heroic examples. I've only played a handful of games, so I'm still working on what powers should be able to do at different levels, so anyone who's more familiar with the level system in 4e and has a grasp of the concept based on the show, I'd appreciate any powers you have in mind!

Meek
2008-12-05, 10:53 AM
I wrote a little guide of sorts (http://spiritsofeden.wordpress.com/2008/12/03/wyatts-guide-to-balancing-a-4e-class/) on making a 4e class based on what other 4e classes do. However, it still needs work, as I plan to add a section discussing the effects each role can impart upon an enemy at certain level ranges...so far I've only done up to the damage minimums and maximums (also, all of this is from observing the Core classes on paper and in play not Swordmage, Dark pact Warlock, not Martial Power stuff, and etc). So you can use it, but keep that in mind.

As for overcoming resistance, the earliest instance I have seen is Death's Fond Caress, a level 9 Dark Pact daily power. However, this power ignores resistance ENTIRELY. A power that ignores, say, 5 points of Resistance, would probably make a decent 7th and up levels power. By Epic Tier, overcoming IMMUNITY is probably something really cool to give out on the level 25 Daily and level 27 encounter (or lower, perhaps the 23rd encounter power be bold in your 4e designs, that's what I always say :smallwink:).

Pirate_King
2008-12-05, 11:07 AM
Nifty, thanks. I saw your 4e house rules, too, I plan on using some of them in the campaign I'm currently running.

I added a couple build options:


Firebender Builds: True Firebender, Military Firebender

True Firebender: You forgo the use of weapons, and your flames are an extension of your body. You gain a +3 proficiency bonus to unarmed strikes, which can be applied to Fire Blast attack rolls, as well as certain other powers.

Military Firebender: Fire is a tool to strengthen your attacks. You gain proficiency in military light and heavy blades, crossbows, and hide armor.

I'll add things to certain powers for both of these builds as soon as I think of more effects

bue52
2008-12-05, 11:32 AM
I have a question on Bending as a skill itself, how is it going to be used as a skill?

Pirate_King
2008-12-05, 12:25 PM
That is something that I still need to work on, but as an out of combat skill, it can be used to circumvent various natural hazards, such as a waterbender creating an ice path to cross a river, a firebender quenching the flames of a burning building or bypassing a fire wall set up to block entrance to some dungeon or another, an earthbender turning a smooth cliff face into climbable terrain, or an airbender powering a sail-powered vehicle. There are other uses that normally fall under other skills, perhaps an air or fire bender might use their bending check instead of an athletics check for a jump, or a waterbender for swim. Still, it's kind of a free-form thing that needs some working out.

Once I work out the firebender builds' effects on the appropriate powers, I'm going to start on the waterbender, and work my way through each class for levels 1 and 2 before I work on more powers, feats, specific uses of the skill, paragon paths, and epic destinies.

Meek
2008-12-05, 12:34 PM
You can scale it to use the Easy, Moderate and Hard DCs for the PC's level to perform actions (check the DMG for them) or you can come up with your own table for these things. For example, in the skill, come up with some examples of what is an "easy" use is, and what it's DC will be; and what is a "hard" use, and suchlike. If you want to tie it into powers, you can add a clause to a power like "Moderate [Element]bending: If you succeed on the Bending check, you get [X benefit]" in addition to what the base power does.

Edit: One example I can think of is lightning-bending. You can have a power that shoots out lightning, fine, but if you don't succeed on a bending check, it dealts a number of dice of damage to you (said in the base power the bending check clause would modify the base power so on a success you take no damage.)

Pirate_King
2008-12-06, 02:43 PM
Waterbender class features are up. I'm not sure whether to make healing waters a class feature that is improved by taking the Ocean spirit build, or making it a separate set of powers. The latter would be closer to canon, but the former would make the class a better fit for a leader role.

Meek
2008-12-06, 03:01 PM
I went through the Firebender stuff you have up and have a few (a lot of) thoughts on them. I don't know your design intentions completely and am kind of tired from my ten page architecture essay on Museums (I now officially hate museums, thanks Architecture). But here goes:

Fire Blast: Okey-doke, flavor-wise, I understand what you're going with this. Dexterity as the attack roll with wisdom to damage would sort of fit how Firebending is displayed in the series. However, it makes it rather wonky balance-wise. As it stands, the power is dangerously weak, because to support both stats on this level (attack and damage rolls should always have top priority), you'd need to take a dual 16 array even just the standard array would make this power a bit of a ripoff on you. I would suggest biting your lip and just making both things use the same ability score. Furthermore, if all this is doing is shooting a guy, you can make it a d10 attack. Eldritch Blast is a d10 attack.

Channel Flame: Works for me. Coincidentally, Wizard's of the Coast had a problem with the Barbarian because of a mechanic sort of like this one. Howling Strike deals 1[W] + Str + 1d6 damage. 1d6 increases to 2d6 at paragon then 3d6 at epic. With a Rogue paragon multiclassing into Barbarian for Howling Strike, he could sneak attack for +8d6 at epic tier using Howling Strike. With a short sword, he'd be doing 10d6 (or 5d6 + 5d8) on an At Will attack if he had CA, and CA is very easy to get unless all your fights are in open empty spaces in broad daylight. I don't know how this stuff will work (are the core classes around or are they all replaced by Avatar-styled classes?) but it's something to consider when you give a power extra hard die of damage.

Firewhip: BIG NO NO. Nothing dazes as an At Will. It is way, way too powerful. Without the daze, the power is ridiculously weak. I don't understand how the daze relates to the power's fluff either...what is the daze meant to represent?

Flashfire: Very weak. Bite it and just let it add dex modifier or something to the damage. Most powers that let you shift do so as an effect. Having to actually hit to shift isn't terribly powerful, and furthermore, very few enemies actually smash shifting characters, so the quirky boost isn't worth sacrificing damage.

Fire Kick: Ranged 20 is really, really far. Works fluffwise but mechanically it's a bit overkill. Make it ranged 10.

Fire Sweep: One thing I'm noticing is that many of these powers have no interesting effects besides burning the enemy. I suggest you take a look at the Warlock powers. Their damage compares to your powers', but they do stuff besides that. It helps spice up what could otherwise become like 3.5's "I walk up to that guy and hit him" syndrome of vanilla attacks. Aside from that, this isn't bad.

Evasive Attack: Yikes. This is pretty damn tough. I would reduce damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier + 1d6 fire damage. Getting two modifiers in, and a 1d8 on top of a 2[W] is a little too good even for a striker. Alternatively, remove the added die, and just let the two modifiers stay (though this makes it a very very good power as opposed to the very good power of my fix).

Brushfire Blade: Remove the special clause, and add it as the Military Firebender clause instead. As it stands, the power is really too strong if you can stand up, deal good damage and knock guys prone in a burst around you. Compare to what bursts the Fighter, Rogue or Ranger are doing at level 1 encounter (not many I assure you.)

Searing Blade: Roughly comparable to the Warlock's Flames of Phlegethos in power level, so good...but the Miss clause is a little wonky. I don't know how I like that it deals half ongoing fire damage from missing. Perhaps it just deals the fire damage on a one-time basis instead.

Guided Torch: This is another one of those powers that are just kind of wonky. It's not, in and of itself, bad. It may be a little bit too good. But it's also just strange. Right now, I'm seeing the Military Firebender is a Striker/Defender and the True Firebender is a Striker/Controller. I think you should look at the Wizard and Warlock, and the Fighter and Rogue, for some inspiration and for balancing issues. Also, the half ongoing fire damage clause is still a tick weird.

Flying Dragon Kick: Very nice. Well balanced, good effect, nice mesh of flavor and mechanics. I can totally picture a firebender doing a Flying Dragon kick and kicking ass. This is the sort of powers you need to look at and do more of.

Blazing Burst: Pretty cool. However, all a grab does is immobilize you...you can still attack while grabbed. I would give it an effect that says something like "If you are grabbed, you escape the grab." Remember that Effects happen regardless of a hit or a miss. This makes it much cleaner than the Special clause.

Invigorating Flames: Needs a Healing keyword, and the proper term is "Spend a Healing Surge" so we know we're getting HP back.

Burning Rush: This would be better and easier as:

Encounter
Move Action Personal
Effect: You shift your speed, and this movement ignores difficult terrain.

The Fire in the power is just for cosmetic effect, so it doesn't need a Fire keyword. If all the Elemental Keyword does is denote what gets bonuses to attack and damage, then it isn't needed here either.

Hot Blooded: Seems to work.

As for the class features: Child of the Sun seems overpowered. Attack roll bonuses are difficult to come by. Perhaps give out a sort of Weapon Talent/Prime Shot ability they can pick either a +1 bonus to attack rolls with melee elemental powers or ranged elemental powers. In addition, they would gain an overall +1 fire damage regardless of the choice.

Pirate_King
2008-12-06, 03:28 PM
I went through the Firebender stuff you have up and have a few (a lot of) thoughts on them. I don't know your design intentions completely and am kind of tired from my ten page architecture essay on Museums (I now officially hate museums, thanks Architecture). But here goes:
insert helpful critique


Hurray for homebrewing instead of working. I've been alternately working on this and a Philosophy paper on understanding Language. The class should be changed to Not Understand Language, because as soon as I started it, I began to question if anyone really understands anyone else. It's pretty maddening.

On to my response:

Yeah, most of my ability things are based more on fluff with an attempt at making it coincide with mechanics, but for the style of 4e, I'm just going to have to give in to certain things.


(are the core classes around or are they all replaced by Avatar-styled classes?)
In the original campaign setting, no casting core classes existed, and other core classes were altered, but there was a way to play benders in a "normal" D&D setting. I'm going more for that, I think, since 4e is pretty streamlined and balanced whether or not you incorporate magic using classes.


Firewhip: BIG NO NO. Nothing dazes as an At Will. It is way, way too powerful. Without the daze, the power is ridiculously weak. I don't understand how the daze relates to the power's fluff either...what is the daze meant to represent?
This was not really a well-thought out move by me, I just need to think of something give what I see as a classic firebender attack something to make it worth while. The logic behind the daze was just the reaction to being lashed, or something... I really don't have much of an excuse here. Although, you're not confusing dazed with stunned, are you?

I see the logic in pretty much every fix you've got, but I still don't know how to make firewhip worth taking...

EDIT: I went through the powers and made some changes, but I kept the miss-ongoing damage for guided torch, based on precedence in the Daily Wizard power Acid arrow:
Miss: Half damage, and ongoing 2 acid damage to primary
target (save ends), and no secondary attack.

Originally, Burning Rush was supposed to increase speed, but that can be reflected in that the firebender is moving too fast to be hit for the shift. I can add higher level powers that are similar, with the increased speed as an additional property.

Your understanding of the 4e Power format has been very helpful in cleaning these up!

Meek
2008-12-06, 04:10 PM
Daze has enemies grant combat advantage and can only either move or attack (not both) in their turn. Stun is better yeah, but Daze is still one of the big guns.

Here's something I came up with for Fire Whip...

A long, narrow tongue of flame is released from your fingertips, and the lash inflicts terrible pain on an opponent.
At-Will * Elemental, Fire, (Implement)
Standard Action Ranged 3
Requirements: You must have a free hand to use this attack.
Target: one Creature
Attack Dex vs AC
Hit: 1d4 fire damage and whenever the target attacks, moves or is moved until the start of your next turn, it takes damage equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Increase damage to 2d4 fire damage at 21st level.

KKL
2008-12-06, 09:13 PM
I still liked the minor action 1/round version :>

Meek
2008-12-06, 09:40 PM
I still liked the minor action 1/round version :>

Hmm, really, that's an interesting prospect. But it'd be sort of like a hunter's quarry or sneak attack that you'd have to attack with to use.

KKL
2008-12-06, 09:57 PM
Hmm, really, that's an interesting prospect. But it'd be sort of like a hunter's quarry or sneak attack that you'd have to attack with to use.

Well, since the FB isn't going to be getting extra dice along the line of HQ/WC/SA, I'd say there should be a slightly more free reign on doing new things with powers. Plus, the minor action attack's already been done, albeit as an encounter power for TWF Rangers in MP.

Meek
2008-12-06, 10:04 PM
I didn't mean it that it'd be too powerful...I actually think it's weak. And I also think it'll lend itself to weird situations flavorwise where you'll be wanting to use your little lash all the time to sneak in extra damage before doing something else. I think integrating hard die into certain powers covers the striker angle well. The Barbarian got off well enough that way (aside from Howling Strike/Rogue breakage). So the TC needs to look along those lines. I don't think rapid-fire is the way to go as a damage addition mechanic.

KKL
2008-12-06, 10:26 PM
I didn't mean it that it'd be too powerful...I actually think it's weak. And I also think it'll lend itself to weird situations flavorwise where you'll be wanting to use your little lash all the time to sneak in extra damage before doing something else. I think integrating hard die into certain powers covers the striker angle well. The Barbarian got off well enough that way (aside from Howling Strike/Rogue breakage). So the TC needs to look along those lines. I don't think rapid-fire is the way to go as a damage addition mechanic.

I see I see.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-07, 02:53 AM
That is something that I still need to work on, but as an out of combat skill, it can be used to circumvent various natural hazards, such as a waterbender creating an ice path to cross a river, a firebender quenching the flames of a burning building or bypassing a fire wall set up to block entrance to some dungeon or another, an earthbender turning a smooth cliff face into climbable terrain, or an airbender powering a sail-powered vehicle. There are other uses that normally fall under other skills, perhaps an air or fire bender might use their bending check instead of an athletics check for a jump, or a waterbender for swim. Still, it's kind of a free-form thing that needs some working out.

Once I work out the firebender builds' effects on the appropriate powers, I'm going to start on the waterbender, and work my way through each class for levels 1 and 2 before I work on more powers, feats, specific uses of the skill, paragon paths, and epic destinies.
This seems REALLY straightforward. Make all of these fall under utility powers, wizard-like "cantrips" or class features.

Lighting a campfire should be a freebie at-will power, for example. So should being able to blow a simple wind to drive a sailboat. There's also a Rogue utility that gives a bonus to jump checks, if I'm not mistaken. So just steal that idea for your hypothetical Airbender class.

. . .And so on and so forth. . .

Meek
2008-12-07, 11:33 AM
I like the idea of element cantrips for each character. An airbender should be able to create wind whenever he wants, he need only exert himself when using wind to do something extreme (like blowing someone off his feet). You could make them Prestidigitation-like class features, that tell you exactly the minimum and the max that it can do.

Ceiling009
2008-12-07, 01:20 PM
How is the Waterbender a leader first? apart from the healing branch of the art, they're all strikers; maybe controllers. But not leaders in the same way that even warlords are leaders or clerics. Even the two other presented leaders, the Bard and the Artificer, from what we've seen in the show (which is for me to bring up... cause I pretty much never follow it in terms of design) all the waterbenders we've seen, even Katara, all follow either striker or controller modes with those that can "heal" (cause it's supposed to be rare or somewhat), with a leader secondary.

Also, all leader primary based classes have an automatic encounter power that can heal allies; even the paladin which is leader secondary, has the lay on hands. I'm just mentioning this.

Pirate_King
2008-12-07, 03:02 PM
I can see what your saying, but I still want a waterbender to have access to more healing surges, because I wanted to introduce a mechanic for ocean spirit waterbenders to be able to use their own healing surges to heal others, instead of just allowing others to spend healing surges. Both builds would have access to the power, but moon spirit would only be able to allow others to spend healing surges.

So, the role would be controller, with leader secondary. Should a healing power be a freebie for all waterbenders, or should I follow canon and make players choose? the problem is Katara can do pretty much anything paku or other waterbenders can do as well as heal, so I don't want to limit the class to choosing a healing power or an attacking power. Perhaps when you choose a build, you gain an encounter power class feature. Now I just have to think of what the other class feature power is.

The skill: it wouldn't need to be freebie utility powers, it would just be a set of uses for the skill, in addition to being allowed to use the bending skill in place of other skills in certain situations, like waterbending instead of athletics to swim, or airbending instead of athletics to jump. I think developing cantrip-like powers for all these uses would be a waste of space, and 4e already limits a lot of the free-form stuff from the original system. This is how I can keep some of it.

Also, good to see you ceiling, I was wondering when folks from the old project might show up.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-07, 04:03 PM
I can see what your saying, but I still want a waterbender to have access to more healing surges, because I wanted to introduce a mechanic for ocean spirit waterbenders to be able to use their own healing surges to heal others, instead of just allowing others to spend healing surges. Both builds would have access to the power, but moon spirit would only be able to allow others to spend healing surges.

So, the role would be controller, with leader secondary. Should a healing power be a freebie for all waterbenders, or should I follow canon and make players choose? the problem is Katara can do pretty much anything paku or other waterbenders can do as well as heal, so I don't want to limit the class to choosing a healing power or an attacking power. Perhaps when you choose a build, you gain an encounter power class feature. Now I just have to think of what the other class feature power is.

The skill: it wouldn't need to be freebie utility powers, it would just be a set of uses for the skill, in addition to being allowed to use the bending skill in place of other skills in certain situations, like waterbending instead of athletics to swim, or airbending instead of athletics to jump. I think developing cantrip-like powers for all these uses would be a waste of space, and 4e already limits a lot of the free-form stuff from the original system. This is how I can keep some of it.

Also, good to see you ceiling, I was wondering when folks from the old project might show up.
I think you're missing the point then. The real trivial stuff should be free at-will prestidigitation-like powers. Heating water or lighting a candle is a pretty trivial ability, but something you'd expect a Firebender to do for free, even as a level one newbie.

The more useful stuff like jumping or swimming should be early utility powers. "Airbending" jumps could get a level 2 utility at-will power. The power could give a power bonus to jump checks and also make it so those rolls are all treated as a "running start," even if though the character would normally be jumping from a dead start.

Movement in water could simply allow the character to shift around a set number of squares per round as long as the power is being sustained, allowing the character to still use a move action to make swim checks. Upgraded "swimming" powers may dispense with a swim check altogether and simply grant a swim speed.

That's the whole point of utility slots, isn't it? To do all that useful noncombat-specific stuff?

Having to write up a bunch of skills that break the way other skills work seems to break some sort of rules simplicity and runs against the design philosophy of 4e. It's easier to say "you get to shift because you have it as a utility power" instead of having to reference complex skill rules every time.

Although I don't see why you couldn't keep rituals that basically run off a new set of skills that are similar to Arcana.

Pirate_King
2008-12-07, 04:21 PM
but by putting that stuff into utility slots, you leave certain benders unable to do it. All waterbenders should have the ability to move quicker through water, not just the ones that pick that utility. Yes, there will be some utilities that make those abilities more potent, a la burning rush, but there are some things that all benders need to be capable of through the bending skill.


The real trivial stuff should be free at-will prestidigitation-like powers. Heating water or lighting a candle is a pretty trivial ability, but something you'd expect a Firebender to do for free, even as a level one newbie.

Exactly, they'll be capable of that, I just don't feel the need to write a bunch of at-will prestidigitation powers when I can just leave it as incredibly low DC uses of the skill.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-07, 04:32 PM
but by putting that stuff into utility slots, you leave certain benders unable to do it. All waterbenders should have the ability to move quicker through water, not just the ones that pick that utility. Yes, there will be some utilities that make those abilities more potent, a la burning rush, but there are some things that all benders need to be capable of through the bending skill.



Exactly, they'll be capable of that, I just don't feel the need to write a bunch of at-will prestidigitation powers when I can just leave it as incredibly low DC uses of the skill.
I see no problem with this. I don't really expect level one nobodies to bounce around from the get-go. In my mind, this simply represents inexperience with their powers.

Basically, you don't find level two airbenders that know how to bounce-around at will. But they'll have a couple of tricks up their sleeve. Not that you'll really be spending your utility slots on much else besides bouncing around once you can get them.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-08, 01:53 AM
Exactly, they'll be capable of that, I just don't feel the need to write a bunch of at-will prestidigitation powers when I can just leave it as incredibly low DC uses of the skill.
Also, I feel the need to point this out since I missed the full implications of what you were saying here.

Writing out freebie prestidigitation-type powers really isn't *that hard.* The wizard manages with four cantrips total. Your benders probably won't need more than just the one power.

Really, either way, you're writing a whole bunch of highly specific abilities. It's better just to put it at the front-end of the class as an at-will power than to screw up the skill system. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the starting at-will is pretty much "You automatically succeed at the usage of this very specific skill that nobody else gets!"

For example, you could make Firebenders get:


Minor Pyrokinesis
Use this power to:
- Heat "x" amount of untended water to boiling for up to "x" hours.
- Instantly light (or snuff out) a candle, torch, or a small campfire. (Taken straight from prestidigitation no less!)
- The flame or heat produced cannot be used offensively.


And that's, like all you'd need to write for the low-end usages.

Fifty-Eyed Fred
2008-12-08, 09:27 AM
This thread's title is hilarious. No wonder Avatar's subtitle was changed over here...

Pirate_King
2008-12-08, 12:41 PM
Hey, sexual preference has no bearing on whether or not you make a good member of an adventuring party.

On minor powers: Okay, you're right. Still, let's put that in the fridge, and make it an understood use of the bending skill for now. When I get all the classes started, and get to putting together the rest of the powers, I'll do the minor powers. As of right now, I'm too lazy to put all the little powers together.

On Waterbenders: I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of how to handle the problem of available water. Essentially, high-level powers, or even low-level dailies are going to depend on a large source of water. Do I just need to put in a "special" clause, and waterbenders will continue to be basically useless at early levels if they don't have easy access to water?

Another problem, if I'm making healing waters (it'l basically be like inspiring word, only with water) a power that ocean spirit benders get for free, what power do I make up for moon spirit benders to get for free? Perhaps I should put waterbenders on hold while I work on the other ones, and get back to their powers...

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-08, 07:27 PM
Hey, sexual preference has no bearing on whether or not you make a good member of an adventuring party.

On minor powers: Okay, you're right. Still, let's put that in the fridge, and make it an understood use of the bending skill for now. When I get all the classes started, and get to putting together the rest of the powers, I'll do the minor powers. As of right now, I'm too lazy to put all the little powers together.

On Waterbenders: I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of how to handle the problem of available water. Essentially, high-level powers, or even low-level dailies are going to depend on a large source of water. Do I just need to put in a "special" clause, and waterbenders will continue to be basically useless at early levels if they don't have easy access to water?

Another problem, if I'm making healing waters (it'l basically be like inspiring word, only with water) a power that ocean spirit benders get for free, what power do I make up for moon spirit benders to get for free? Perhaps I should put waterbenders on hold while I work on the other ones, and get back to their powers...
Meh, it's not really hard to put the players near water at nearly every occasion that matters. The Avatar universe is full of islands surrounded by water, no? And most communities sanely keep around a source of water for consumption and quite possibly transportation as well.

Not hard to allow for "dramatic coincidence" by DM fiat.

Also, you can just specify that some Waterbender powers simply rip the water out of an underground river, well, nearby pipes or whatever (unless stated otherwise by the DM).

Meek
2008-12-08, 08:18 PM
Certain classes in 4e have special implements, like the Druid's totems (?) and the Bard's instruments. You can have waterbenders be able to get flasks of magic water that serve as their implements. Much like magic thrown weapons return to your hand instantly, and other such magic weapon shenanigans, you can draw water from the flasks for your attacks endlessly. However, the water is undrinkable...the process of magicking it required the use of materials you don't want in your stomach.

It's all fluff, and most powers don't care too much about it. Another example is that even if you have a crossbow with Load Minor, you can load it multiple times if an attack allows you to attack multiple times with it. So yeah, this sort of stuff is probably best off handwaved in the above way. PCs will be upgrading their gear, so for the really massive water attacks, you could just say a +5-+6 flask makes LOADS of water.

Shadow_Elf
2008-12-08, 08:37 PM
Just a comment; there is currently no way to show that water attacks do more damage to Fire creatures. This is because there really are no water attacks. Maybe a new Keyword (Water) is in order, to run this class?

If that's already been said, sorry.

Meek
2008-12-08, 09:14 PM
The way 4e is structured, you could even add a Fire keyword to Water attacks if you're shooting really hot water :smallamused:

The easiest way to do this is to add a cold keyword to the water powers. Even if they're not ice, if they're cold, then they can deal cold damage. Also, Water already exists but as an Elemental creature subtype keyword, as opposed to an attack keyword.

Ceiling009
2008-12-09, 12:17 AM
The issues of lack of bending material, while extremely important for the plot purposes of the show, are completely immaterial in terms of the game mechanics. As if you've noticed, they've more or less removed things like anti-magic fields, and other things that wholesale remove, nullify, or make useless anyone class.

About the implements... they should all be equivalent to holy symbols; meaning that it's the holy symbol slot, or rather the implement slot, and not any other body slot. Save for things like the Holy Avenger or even defensive staffs for benders (which I think should exist (go sokka's space sword!)).

Also, I think I'd like to take a crack at the Waterbender, I sort of have this half written document on my plan of making the Benders into 4e as one class. Though I've sort of come to the conclusion that they need to be 4 classes; though with ridiculously high overlap.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-09, 12:27 AM
Certain classes in 4e have special implements, like the Druid's totems (?) and the Bard's instruments. You can have waterbenders be able to get flasks of magic water that serve as their implements. Much like magic thrown weapons return to your hand instantly, and other such magic weapon shenanigans, you can draw water from the flasks for your attacks endlessly. However, the water is undrinkable...the process of magicking it required the use of materials you don't want in your stomach.

It's all fluff, and most powers don't care too much about it. Another example is that even if you have a crossbow with Load Minor, you can load it multiple times if an attack allows you to attack multiple times with it. So yeah, this sort of stuff is probably best off handwaved in the above way. PCs will be upgrading their gear, so for the really massive water attacks, you could just say a +5-+6 flask makes LOADS of water.
That'd be an idea. Make a ritual that essentially allows a Waterbender to create a compact and lightweight source of water for one encounter. It's run by the power of "alchemic bending". Oooo! Ahhh!

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-09, 12:53 AM
As for the implement problem. What if we make the attack bonuses inherent in the powers themselves? Low-level powers get attack bonuses which scale-up as a "Special." Powers which can only be accessed at higher-levels come packaged with higher attack bonuses.

That way we can offer a number of different tactical trade-offs between powers.

The first category of powers fulfills the class's primary roll. These attacks have bonuses built into them that scales as the character levels. These powers come built-in with attack bonuses which will scale the fastest as the character levels.

The secondary powers fulfill a secondary role, but they do not scale as quickly, if at all. However, they offer invaluable tactical alternatives. Maybe these attacks do more damage or maybe it has a particularly devastating debuff effect.

So a hypothetical Firebender gets highly-damaging and accurate attacks as his primary powers, which are usually in keeping with his role as a striker. These powers *always* scale with his level to simulate the acquisition of stronger implements that he would normally receive in D&D.

By contrast, his secondary powers don't get bonuses which scale as quickly as his primary powers. However, they offer our hypothetical Firebender potent controlling powers which synergizes with his role as a striker. Or maybe it's simply a more damaging striker attack. Or maybe they target other defenses which the class wouldn't normally attack.

For example, the Firebender could have a "crowd control" power, that while not very useful against challenges closer to his level, allow him to quickly dispatch minions and other lower-leveled mobs with ease. Or it may give him a potent debuff effect that allows him to quickly cripple an enemy that he goes one-on-one with.

This way you can retain the fluff of not having an implement. Although you can simply make one class of Bender distinct from others by an implement for one kind of Bender, but not for another.

Ceiling009
2008-12-09, 06:44 PM
There's an issue with the built in implement bonuses... is that it's not part of the current game structure.

I'm not saying that we should adhere completely to it, but the point is that every class has implement, be it weapon, holy symbol, or some other oblong shaped object that you can point at people. Changing that would be a real headache, cause then you purposely up the bending classes in that they no longer have to spend the money or material to get an implement. And it removes any possible uses for other powers that could be umm... implemented in implements; or even tweaks like those found in orbs, rods, and staffs. It once again brings that issue of the 3.5 monk and his complete lack for equipment; but on the flip side nearing the end game brings his desperate need for items to be even on par with the rest of the group.

So I think it should fall into the same slot as a holy symbol, but does not share any enchantments that holy symbols can receive (barring DM fiat); but would in fact be closer to maybe the staff, orb, rod, or even weapon enchantments (the weapon enchantments are the hardest to figure out).

And the thing is that Firebenders are full out strikers with AoE controller tendencies. I don't think they need to have separate primary and secondary powers. I haven't really looked at Pirate King's Firebender, but I'd say it's better to make that a build, a focused striker with some powers getting upped due to being such a focused striker, while the other is a little more versatile, a striker with stronger controller tendencies, with powers that affect adjacent squares or are burst-y if you're that build.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-11, 04:09 PM
Here's a question:
Exactly what does a Will defense mean in this setting? It's not like there are mind-attacking powers unless you refer to getting stunned, dazed or somehow distracted by an attack or somesuch.

Ceiling009
2008-12-11, 07:00 PM
uh... nothing? In terms of actual setting... there haven't been any real attacks or things anyone does that would actually effect the Will Defense I think... Most are external attacks, which reminds me... what class has a lot of will attacks? The closest I could think from this setting that could have a will attack are things from the Spirit World, like the angry Panda thing, and other things that are in the spirit world.

Vadin
2008-12-11, 07:18 PM
uh... nothing? In terms of actual setting... there haven't been any real attacks or things anyone does that would actually effect the Will Defense I think... Most are external attacks, which reminds me... what class has a lot of will attacks? The closest I could think from this setting that could have a will attack are things from the Spirit World, like the angry Panda thing, and other things that are in the spirit world.

Anything that contains an effect that confuses, disorients, scares, or otherwise messes with the foe's mind could quite plausibly target Will.

Earthbenders trapping people with unnecessary, firebenders intimidating them (with a maneuver that either pushes the target back or deals weak fire damage on miss, for example), airbenders throwing stuff at a foe to distract them- any could plausibly target Will defense.

KKL
2008-12-11, 08:12 PM
Here's a question:
Exactly what does a Will defense mean in this setting? It's not like there are mind-attacking powers unless you refer to getting stunned, dazed or somehow distracted by an attack or somesuch.

Seen the last episode of Avatar whereAang owns Ozai so thoroughly that he can't firebend anymore?
That's definately an attack against will defense.

UltraDude
2008-12-11, 09:33 PM
Seen the last episode of Avatar whereAang owns Ozai so thoroughly that he can't firebend anymore?
That's definately an attack against will defense.

That's pretty blatantly a special area for the Avatar I'd think, though of course you could do that with an Avatar Epic Destiny or some such. A direct mind affecting ability is definitely something that fits pretty much only into the Avatar's abilities though, IMO.

Ceiling009
2008-12-11, 10:33 PM
I really wasn't going to mention the last episode... but yes, I think that would work as something that attacks will defense. But I think things that would distract, intimidate, and other could attack will are just effects tied to a physical or at least elemental strike.

Let's make up a Firebender power that could let's say intimidate...

Flaming Tiger Rush Lvl 13
Your ferocious strike also strikes deep into the heart of your enemies.
Encounter * Fire, Symbol
Standard Action Close Blast 3
Target: One Creature in Blast
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Effect: 3d8 + Wisdom fire damage to target; and all creatures in blast grants combat advantage.
Miss: Target grants combat advantage only.

I mean this is a hypothetical power, but I think you Will Defense is only done if it's a straight up mind attack, or an attack on the soul, versus anything like a distracting strike or other things that would have a catalyst with a physical or even manifested elemental strike.

But that's just me.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-12, 12:41 AM
I really wasn't going to mention the last episode... but yes, I think that would work as something that attacks will defense. But I think things that would distract, intimidate, and other could attack will are just effects tied to a physical or at least elemental strike.

Let's make up a Firebender power that could let's say intimidate...

Flaming Tiger Rush Lvl 13
Your ferocious strike also strikes deep into the heart of your enemies.
Encounter * Fire, Symbol
Standard Action Close Blast 3
Target: One Creature in Blast
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Effect: 3d8 + Wisdom fire damage to target; and all creatures in blast grants combat advantage.
Miss: Target grants combat advantage only.

I mean this is a hypothetical power, but I think you Will Defense is only done if it's a straight up mind attack, or an attack on the soul, versus anything like a distracting strike or other things that would have a catalyst with a physical or even manifested elemental strike.

But that's just me.
Well, I already suggested it, more or less, but this seems plausible enough. If nothing else, Will can be used as a funky defense against exotic monsters.

So we're going to roughly define Will as how steely your nerves are in a combat situation? Or to put it another way: "How many bombshells does it take to shellshock your character?"

Anyway, this is sort of what I was thinking for "secondary" roles for Firebenders. That is, they're damage dealers with bursty tendencies and an additional tendency towards shock-and-awe controller tactics. (Being set on fire has a tendency to panic people.)

Contrast this with say Airbender control powers, which would focus more on sliding, pushing, pulling or knocking enemies prone. Or Waterbenders, who are obligated to have powers that immobilize enemies by "freezing" them.

Pirate_King
2008-12-15, 08:25 PM
Bloodbending powers could conceivably be against Will, though Fortitude makes more sense for that.. Yeah, Will would only make sense against some sort of psychological attacks. I'll look for examples of martial powers that target the will defense. Still, the will defense isn't useless to these benders, I'm trying to make these classes compatible with a normal setting. Ceiling, feel free to have a go at some Waterbender powers, I wouldn't mind the help. I'll get started on some more stuff tomorrow, now that I'm home for break.

Meek
2008-12-15, 09:44 PM
Another thing is that, in 4e, some attacks are just implied to have stricken in some way (any martial power that has an "Effect" clause the effect ALWAYS happens, regardless of whether or not you successfully hit). What you could do is design powers in this sort way they target Will, not because the actual fireball or etc targets Will, but because the attack is implied to have stricken, and they are defending against the effect. This would make more sense with Daily powers that have Miss clauses, however, than it would with Encounter powers.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-15, 11:04 PM
Another thing is that, in 4e, some attacks are just implied to have stricken in some way (any martial power that has an "Effect" clause the effect ALWAYS happens, regardless of whether or not you successfully hit). What you could do is design powers in this sort way they target Will, not because the actual fireball or etc targets Will, but because the attack is implied to have stricken, and they are defending against the effect. This would make more sense with Daily powers that have Miss clauses, however, than it would with Encounter powers.
So the miss clause states that the target takes damage, while the actual attack roll involves [Stat] vs. Will?

P.S.
Having seen more of the series, I'm more convinced that Firebender powers should be driven by Charisma. The "ideal" firebender usually seems to be a highly motivated and passionate sort of individual who achieves things by sheer force of personality, if not by brute intimidation. Wisdom probably makes for a generally good secondary stat all-around.

Meek
2008-12-15, 11:32 PM
Yeah. My logic behind it is that, regardless of what happens, the attack will damage you, so you're going to be hit by some of it. But what you're defending against is really the effect. Maybe some hugely intimidating display of bending (like bending up an animal-shape attack) would have more impact on the Will, because physically it's going to hit you no matter what.

Or something.

If that's too much trouble, it can be relegated to the third banana defense anyway. Most classes only hit 1 or 2 defenses primarily anyway, with a spattering of powers for the other defenses (or in some cases none).

Pirate_King
2008-12-19, 09:39 AM
Having seen more of the series, I'm more convinced that Firebender powers should be driven by Charisma. The "ideal" firebender usually seems to be a highly motivated and passionate sort of individual who achieves things by sheer force of personality, if not by brute intimidation. Wisdom probably makes for a generally good secondary stat all-around.

This was brought up a lot in the old system. We ultimately came to the conclusion that Bending abilities came from Wisdom, even though charisma made sense in certain situations. See Admiral Zhao as opposed to Jong Jong in The Deserter, or the entire point of the episode Firebending Masters.

That aside, I'm turning out having less time to do anything over break than I anticipated, so I'm going to put this project on hold for a while, and revive the thread when I've got a more solid start.

EDIT: Oh, and Lurker, about your quotations, if you're posting right after the person you're quoting, it's not really necessary to quote their entire post in yours, it kind of clutters up the screen. Your additions have been valuable, though.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-19, 10:44 AM
This was brought up a lot in the old system. We ultimately came to the conclusion that Bending abilities came from Wisdom, even though charisma made sense in certain situations. See Admiral Zhao as opposed to Jong Jong in The Deserter, or the entire point of the episode Firebending Masters.

That aside, I'm turning out having less time to do anything over break than I anticipated, so I'm going to put this project on hold for a while, and revive the thread when I've got a more solid start.

EDIT: Oh, and Lurker, about your quotations, if you're posting right after the person you're quoting, it's not really necessary to quote their entire post in yours, it kind of clutters up the screen. Your additions have been valuable, though.
I've only seen the earlier episodes involving Admiral Zhao and Jong Jong, but not Firebending Masters, of which, I only saw a clip. This clip mostly consisted about how Zuko simply didn't have enough anger left in him to fuel his powers.

Frankly, "driven-by-wisdom" is not what I got out of it. Just because you have power doesn't mean it's necessarily done out of wisdom. The whole point of those episodes is that you can easily achieve impressive and even dangerous effects without wisdom. It's one of those situations where a person might be smart enough, or charismatic enough, to get himself into trouble all the more quickly. But their abilities are no less impressive for the lack of foresight.

One of the things about the Fire Nation is that it's power within the fiction isn't really hampered by a lack of wisdom. A lot of the episodes emphasize that its greatest strengths lends itself quite well to destruction and that power isn't really limited by a lack of foresight. They can launch invasions to kill off a Moon Spirit and Zuko remained a potent fighter regardless of any insight into his own character or family situation.

The Fire Nation even takes artistic cues from the "industry versus tradition" theme that was used in Tolkien's LOTR books. The Fire Nation is quite driven to achieve success and power through technology, but are "cosmically unbalanced" enough that they make no effort to mitigate the destructive side-effects. This "imbalance" due to a lack of wisdom is a running theme throughout the show (e.g. the tendency of the Earth folk towards blind dogmatism and stagnation).

It's just imminently desirable to exercise those powers within the framework of a far-seeing and measured rationale and a conscious process of decision-making (read: "wisdom). Wisdom merely enhances powers born of strength, charisma, dexterity, intelligence or whatever else.

Azula, for example, is essentially the living ideal of the Fire Nation. Point being, Firebenders embody ambition, pride, motivation, self-determination and passion. In a word: Charisma. (Ironically, Zuko's uncle is essentially the exact opposite of the ideal, who is often dismissed as being lazy and foolish. There's a Taoistic undertone here since his apparent wisdom was created by tempering his Firebender upbringing by being well-versed in the other cultures, particularly that of Fire's Yang.)

Under further note, it appears the attitude a person seem to take influences how well they use their powers. Aside from Zuko's example, Aang only learns to Earthbend after he adapts a more assertive and bullish attitude. And perhaps the reason the Avatar in this era happens to be an Airbender, is that he was the only person of the four nations to benefit from a culture that put an especial emphasis on achieving ultimate freedom through monastic practice. As opposed to say. . . achieving ultimate power (fire)/order (earth)/adaptability (water) through meditation.

One of the strengths of 4e is that the classes can be dependent solely on one attribute for attack rolls but still gain perks from other ability scores. (e.g. Orb of Imposition for the Wizard Class)

Under this design philosophy you can create feat choices or class features which put heavier emphasis on wisdom.

For example, there might be a Firebender-only feat that allows the Firebender to exclude his allies. Instead of making attack rolls for everybody caught in the blast radius, a Firebender might opt to make an area-of-effect attack target "enemies only." Or it might permit him to put "holes" in the area of effect. This feat (or feature) would have a Wisdom prerequisite or a Wisdom-dependent resolution mechanic.

Of course, there's no reason why you couldn't base attack roles on wisdom and give secondary benefits for having charisma.

AgentPaper
2008-12-19, 10:54 AM
Don't have time to read the thread, unfortunately, but here goes:

Should be 4 classes, one for each element. (duh) *might* want to allow multiclassing into a bending class, which would allow you to use the forms of the other element, but all element keywords would be changed to that of your class. So, you could learn a waterbending move that hits something with a tendril of water, but instead it would be tendrils of flame.

Each class should have a primary stat, with wisdom and charisma as secondary stats, which you can choose between. (charisma making for more of an "attacker" build and wisdom for the more "support" type build) Each element also has their primary stat different, such as str for fire, con for earth, dex for wind, and int for water.

Might have more to add to this later, gotta get on a flight. (especially if you guys don't decide this so far is silly)

Ceiling009
2008-12-19, 06:26 PM
If you really want to break it up into 4 distinct classes, which in my head are still inherently the same, then allow each element to have a different primary stat for their class.

Water has to be Wisdom based, as the closest thing to a leader we have, with a dexterity secondary and constitution third.

Fire can be Charisma based with strength being secondary, and wisdom being third.

Earth can be Constitution first, then strength, then wisdom. That's a real toss up for secondary...

Wind is Dexterity, then Wisdom and uh... who knows as the third? I can't really think of a decent tertiary stat.

It's doable.