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hamishspence
2008-12-06, 05:07 PM
as a 4E book, what do you think of it?

I liked it- though some of the changes I wasn't sure as to the need- elemental energy coming from the Heart, the breath weapon coming from the stomach rather than the lungs.

Giving dragons Ritual Casting as bonus property, I think was a rather good idea- makes up, partially, for the absence of magic powers.

Also, one of the dragons in the adventure in the book has powers- effectively it appears to have been advanced from 5th to 10th level, and given all the powers of a 10th level NPC warlock (except eldritch blast)

Which sets interesting precedent for more variant Dragons- advance them, give them powers from NPC class or template, and we have something interesting.

the stats for magma in another adventure were useful to know- 20d6 fire damage on falling in, 20d6 damage per round of exposure, and when you get out, 30 pts fire damage + slowed (save ends both)

so, all in all, I like this book.

Lets hear some other opinions.

Mewtarthio
2008-12-06, 05:09 PM
I liked it- though some of the changes I wasn't sure as to the need- elemental energy coming from the Heart, the breath weapon coming from the stomach rather than the lungs.

:eek:

The dragons vomit on you now?!

Kurald Galain
2008-12-06, 05:11 PM
I found it unimpressive. It wasn't bad or anything, it was just forgettable. There's been so much information on dragons already, this just goes on the pile.

hamishspence
2008-12-06, 05:20 PM
well, they have two stomachs- upper stomarch that stores the energy- lower stomarch digests the food. Blasts come from the upper stomach, except when Bloodied Breath is used- all the energy in both is released- hence the Once Per Encounter.

Making purple dragons decidedly more vulnerable to sunlight than vampires was unusual decision- they die really fast if they go out by day.

the old Fang Dragons being redone as Gray Dragons was interesting- as was the rule that some ancient dragons leave a permanent zone of danger when they die.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-06, 05:27 PM
:eek:

The dragons vomit on you now?!

Didn't they always? I mean, either it's in the stomach or some other specialized sac (probably in the abdomen). Red dragons literally having a bellyful of fire makes sense to me.

hamishspence
2008-12-06, 05:31 PM
in 3.5 Draconomicon it was a plebotinium organ (draconis fundamentum) that creeated the energy and supplied it to the lungs.

Crow
2008-12-06, 05:32 PM
in 3.5 Draconomicon it was a plebotinium organ (draconis fundamentum) that creeated the energy and supplied it to the lungs.

Dragon-powered staemships...hooah!

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-06, 05:32 PM
Man, dragons' breath coming out of the lungs has to be even dumber than the fact they can use their wings to fly.

Morty
2008-12-06, 05:34 PM
Just out of curiosity, is there any information on good-aligned dragons?

Crow
2008-12-06, 05:35 PM
Man, dragons' breath coming out of the lungs has to be even dumber than the fact they can use their wings to fly.

I always liked Shadowrun's explanation that Dragons are deeply infused with magic which allows them to fly. Their wings would be unable to carry them otherwise, which is why even wingless eastern dragons fly loops around fightercraft.

hamishspence
2008-12-06, 05:35 PM
the presence of shadow dragon (elder) leads me to hope they will appear in Manual of the planes- the other ages of dragon- since we have a shadow dragon model. They shadow walk, and generate globes of darkness the way Drow used to but don't now- ones that aren't always centred on the creature.

Also- stats for wyrmlings- while it looks like Tiny/Small dragon models are obsolete, at least Medium ones will get use again.

It says that magic helps them fly and they couldn't, without it.

No eastern dragons, but Gold is enough like an eastern one in 3.5 that I suspect it will take that role in MM2, if metallics appear in that.

and while Chromatics are rarely Good, it does suggest ways in which dragon may get involved with adventurers peacefully.

Doomsy
2008-12-06, 05:39 PM
One of the things that I found really amusing is how everything about a dragons body is deeply impressive and powerful - from musculature to their thick highly protective scales to the dense, extremely hard bones.

And it all becomes completely brittle or useless within an hour or so of the beast dying. Seems kind of cheesy to me.

Call me crazy, but I've always liked the idea of keeping what you kill as the reward in fantasy. I kill a dragon, I'm going to be wearing trophies and I'd like them to be functional.

KillianHawkeye
2008-12-06, 05:40 PM
Just out of curiosity, is there any information on good-aligned dragons?

I'm pretty sure the first Draconomicron was just going to feature additional chromatic dragon material.

AslanCross
2008-12-06, 05:43 PM
And it all becomes completely brittle or useless within an hour or so of the beast dying. Seems kind of cheesy to me.


Wait, so no more dragonscale armor in 4E? That's incredibly lame.

hamishspence
2008-12-06, 05:44 PM
and lots of non-chromatics in the back of the book- several planar, elemental, abyssal, astral.

and Draconic creature template- which is what Half-Dragon used to be- only everything, not just large creatures, that take it get wings.

it says- you can have dragonscale - but it has to be magic.

Siegel
2008-12-06, 05:45 PM
Is there one of these new "catastrophe" dragons in it ?

Doomsy
2008-12-06, 05:46 PM
Wait, so no more dragonscale armor in 4E? That's incredibly lame.

It basically said you can't just skin it or grab the bones blah blah blah they lose their magic, the means of preserving it are long lost, etc. If you do, you would probably just end up with standard armor for the type you made. Which is pretty lame.

I'll need to reread to find the actual dragonscale armor, I think my mind blanked over it as I took in the implications of the 'fades into crap within a few hours' thing. In 4E, that basically means there is no chance in hell of getting it to an magic armorer in time unless you dragged one along with you.

Which would be kind of cool, admittedly.

hamishspence
2008-12-06, 05:46 PM
no catastrophic or scourge. One in the elementals sounds like a small catastophe though- "Tempest Dragon"

Dragon organs are apparenty preservable for use in rituals.

And Adventurer's Vault has "dragonscale armour" in several colours

so, it looks like somebody knows the ritual.

insecure
2008-12-06, 05:48 PM
and Draconic creature template- which is what Half-Dragon used to be- only everything, not just large creatures, that take it get wings.

Is that particularly bad?

Om
2008-12-06, 05:50 PM
I always liked Shadowrun's explanation that Dragons are deeply infused with magic which allows them to fly. Their wings would be unable to carry them otherwise, which is why even wingless eastern dragons fly loops around fightercraft.Pratchett also expanded on that theme in Guards Guards. In the highly magical Discworld dragons (at least the impressive kind) were a species that had evolved to feed off raw magic itself. Which happily explains away the 'stomach full of fire' and having the same aerodynamic characteristics as a rather large brick

Siegel
2008-12-06, 05:52 PM
DSA / TDE does it the same way. I'm suprised DnD doesn't...

Doomsy
2008-12-06, 05:53 PM
Pratchett also expanded on that theme in Guards Guards. In the highly magical Discworld dragons (at least the impressive kind) were a species that had evolved to feed off raw magic itself. Which happily explains away the 'stomach full of fire' and having the same aerodynamic characteristics as a rather large brick

I like that the swamp dragons are pretty much what happened when nature took over for magic. They're essentially (badly) flying unstable chemical factories.

hamishspence
2008-12-06, 05:53 PM
Not bad- but if you want a creature that looks half-dragon without wings- rules don't support it.

The Jezred Chaulssin were half-shadow dragon drow- with wings- in 3.5- exception to "Only Large Half-dragons have wings"

So was the Dragon Disciple- 10 levels- you turned into, basically, a half-dragon with wings.

hamishspence
2008-12-06, 05:59 PM
4th ed does suggest magic is what makes up much of a dragon's system- hardens bones, strengthens muscles, generates digestive energy.

It gives a reason for blasting targets- the energy works well with digestive system, so a fried victim is easier for a red dragon to digest, chilled victim easy for white to digest, etc.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-06, 06:02 PM
It gives a reason for blasting targets- the energy works well with digestive system, so a fried victim is easier for a red dragon to digest, chilled victim easy for white to digest, etc.

Am I the only one who finds this extremely silly?

hamishspence
2008-12-06, 06:05 PM
some of these may be a little odd. why Psychic energy, Sand, or Poison would help to digest food is an interesting question.

and how does, in the case of a Brown, the dragons heart generate Sand?

Siegel
2008-12-06, 06:05 PM
Because electrified meels have the extra Pep(TM)

hamishspence
2008-12-06, 06:07 PM
for blues it was 'charred but not cooked through- "lightly kissed by the lightning"'

and in 3.5 MM it did say white dragons prefer to freeze theirs. Odd, considering in The Crystal Shard, it was worded as "if it breathed, it would have to settle for frozen flesh" as if it didn't like it that way.

Siegel
2008-12-06, 06:11 PM
some of these may be a little odd. why Psychic energy, Sand, or Poison would help to digest food is an interesting question.

and how does, in the case of a Brown, the dragons heart generate Sand?

Poison is tasty...

Brown dragons have sand in the blood. It helps them keep aterias clean. This sand gets stored in a special heart chamber because the same sand can't be used all the time. Sand dragon take a good mouth of sand sometimes...

Edea
2008-12-06, 06:41 PM
I found it unimpressive. It wasn't bad or anything, it was just forgettable. There's been so much information on dragons already, this just goes on the pile.

Exactly how I felt about it.

Asbestos
2008-12-06, 06:57 PM
Not bad- but if you want a creature that looks half-dragon without wings- rules don't support it.


They get a fly speed of 4 (clumsy) I think that you could just as easily have a draconic creature that doesn't fly and have it not be unbalancing or noticeably 'weaker' than the flying version.

TheEmerged
2008-12-06, 08:44 PM
"Forgettable" and "unimpressive" are pretty good descriptions. I saw nothing in here that screamed "USE ME IN YOUR WORLD!", and very little that looked like they were showing me more impressive uses of the system I wanted to adapt to any of my 4ed projects. I don't regret buying it, per se, but I don't see myself using it very often either.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-12-06, 09:41 PM
Not exactly on topic for the thread, but I didn't really want to start a whole new thread for one specific question.

But uh, myself only having core, which supplement books would you guys say are at the top so far, for 4e of course? I've looked through both the AV and Martial Power at my local game store, and they both look excellent. Martial Power itself looks quite amazing (I counted a bit, and its like each class has 1.5x more powers in this book!).

I want to stray from the Forgotten Realms books though. Even though I'm very interested in the setting (and the Swordmage), I don't think I could convince my group to use it (especially since like 2 others are leaning towards Ebberon).

KKL
2008-12-06, 09:50 PM
It was a fun read through the entire thing, although I'm really not going to be using dragons as a focus for campaigns. Plot hooks, maybe.

PS: Brown Dragons are awesome.

Mando Knight
2008-12-06, 10:23 PM
But uh, myself only having core, which supplement books would you guys say are at the top so far, for 4e of course? I've looked through both the AV and Martial Power at my local game store, and they both look excellent. Martial Power itself looks quite amazing (I counted a bit, and its like each class has 1.5x more powers in this book!).

I want to stray from the Forgotten Realms books though. Even though I'm very interested in the setting (and the Swordmage), I don't think I could convince my group to use it (especially since like 2 others are leaning towards Ebberon).

FR Player's Guide provides rules for the Genasi and more complete support for the Drow, as well... and divine powers and such that could provide ideas for local campaign flavor...

Both Martial Power and Adventurer's Vault are worth it. Vault is a massive overload of new magic items, and Power does indeed give your Martial characters Power... including a deluge of feats geared towards class/race combos.

I also liked the Draconomicon 1... in fact, I'm running a game where the characters are trying to beat its showpiece villain. You deserve an anti-cookie if you can't guess who she is.

AslanCross
2008-12-06, 10:47 PM
I haven't seen the book itself yet, but I have a question for those who have it:
On the WotC Art gallery for the book, they have a picture of what looks like giant floating organs hovering over a sea of blood. What on earth are those? :smalleek:

7th lvl scrub
2008-12-06, 10:57 PM
Last night I was at a Borders and was able to read through some of it, all in all I found it pretty interesting. I enjoyed the new dragon races, and got some awesome campaign ideas from the book. The dragons' hordes were also pretty cool to read about, and I can't wait to implement some of it into my campaign.

skywalker
2008-12-06, 10:59 PM
I haven't seen the book itself yet, but I have a question for those who have it:
On the WotC Art gallery for the book, they have a picture of what looks like giant floating organs hovering over a sea of blood. What on earth are those? :smalleek:

If we're thinking of the same picture, those are islands of flesh in the abyssal plane of blood. That was a very nasty section of the book, if you ask me.

I liked the new dragons, especially brown and purple. Grey was kinda lame, I think we really don't need one more "runs away from stuff it finds too hard to kill" dragon. If you were keeping track, there's only one "fight to the death" dragon, and that's the red. I liked the browns and their food obsession, as well as the mind control powers of the purple.

I liked that some of the breaths had different effects as the dragons got older, and I loved the volcano encounter. I thought it was pretty well thought up. The other encounters, I could take or leave, but I didn't expect them to begin with.

I didn't really care much about the fluff one way or the other, and I didn't expect to. I'm not sure if it followed through on having enough new monsters that weren't wyrmlings, but stats for Tiamat are pretty cool.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-07, 04:54 AM
Am I the only one who finds this extremely silly?
No.
We already know dragons are made of magic. That's sort of the point. That they felt compelled to make up pseudo-biological explanations for dragons is the very definition of silly.

Besides, I'd want to interpret my fantasy game myself, thank you very much.

Mando Knight
2008-12-07, 11:47 AM
I haven't seen the book itself yet, but I have a question for those who have it:
On the WotC Art gallery for the book, they have a picture of what looks like giant floating organs hovering over a sea of blood. What on earth are those? :smalleek:

You know those Gibbering whatevers in the Monster Manual?
Throw a dragon into the mix. Yeah. That's what it is.

Asbestos
2008-12-07, 11:55 AM
No one has mentioned the kobold victory table yet!

For a player... the book is basically useless, for a DM, its useful if you plan on using dragons. The variant dragon powers are also kind of neat, especially if you have players that 'know' what the regular dragons do. Its nice to throw them a curveball.

Mando Knight
2008-12-07, 12:01 PM
No one has mentioned the kobold victory table yet!

For a player... the book is basically useless, for a DM, its useful if you plan on using dragons. The variant dragon powers are also kind of neat, especially if you have players that 'know' what the regular dragons do. Its nice to throw them a curveball.

Yeah... the victory table itself is worth maybe $5. Especially the titles of the effects...
"Ask not what you can do for the tribe!" (I see it more as "Asks not whats you can do for the twibe, but whats the twibe cans do for you!" in a little gravelly voice at the back of the throat... Kobolds are D&D's counterpart to Star Wars: The Clone Wars's Stupor Battle Droids.)

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-07, 01:24 PM
Wait, so no more dragonscale armor in 4E? That's incredibly lame.

There are rules for red, black, green, blue, and white dragonscale armor in the Adventurer's Vault. And more stuff elsewhere, I think, but I can't remember where.

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-07, 01:30 PM
Yeah... the victory table itself is worth maybe $5. Especially the titles of the effects...
"Ask not what you can do for the tribe!" (I see it more as "Asks not whats you can do for the twibe, but whats the twibe cans do for you!" in a little gravelly voice at the back of the throat... Kobolds are D&D's counterpart to Star Wars: The Clone Wars's Stupor Battle Droids.)

There's a much better version by its actual author, here (http://mearls.livejournal.com/145866.html), and a slightly more amusing version of the one in the book in this excellent [and free] Dragon article. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/dragon/364_Creature_Incarnations.pdf)

Shades of Gray
2008-12-07, 01:36 PM
What does the grey dragon breath? I'm interesed in a villainous dragon who indeed "will run away".

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-07, 01:46 PM
Nature DC 20: A gray dragonís breath weapon is a caustic ooze that dissolves flesh on contact and for some time thereafter. The ooze becomes sticky on contact with air, hampering and burning the dragonís prey.
Elder and ancient gray dragons have a special affinity with stone. They can exude a stony essence that petrifies foes that have been immobilized by their claw or breath weapon attack. An ancient gray dragonís spikes have an elemental resonance that petrifies not only the dragonís primary targets, but also nearby creatures. This attack can leave a literal field of stone in its wake.

That's Xd10 acid damage, push 2, immobilize, and ongoing X acid (save ends).

EDIT: And that "Infectious Petrification" thing is awesome. As an immediate reaction: when any creature within 20 fails a save vs. petrification, every creature within burst 5 of that guy is petrified (save ends). If they make that save, they're immobilized (save ends). If they fail that save, they're petrified again--and Infectious Petrification goes off again--and if they save against the petrification, they're immobilized again (save ends). And if they fail that save, they're petrified again. And so on.

TheEmerged
2008-12-07, 03:10 PM
The only two non-Core-4e supplements I can recommend are the Forgotten Realm Player's Guide and Martial Power, both of which I'd recommend as strongly as core.

The Forgotten Realm Campaign Guide is utterly useless unless you're planning on running the the Forgotten Realms. Frankly, they should have unfied the FRCG and FRPG, there was no reason to split this into two books.

The Adventurer's Vault isn't a *bad* product, but it's not a lot of material for what I paid for it. The only reason I don't feel it was a waste was that I wanted a more thorough view of how magic items worked in 4e so I could start developing psionic items. Outside of that need, it's not really worth the cost.

The FRPG is most useful for helping us solidify what is appropriate for background bonuses and for giving a good example of how to add additional languages into a campagin world. The Genasi screamed "MUST ADD TO MY CAMPAIGN WORLD", YMMV of course.

Martial Power? If you're serious about 4e, this should be the first non-core book.

hamishspence
2008-12-07, 04:15 PM
I must admit that when I saw the bit that said main reson for brown dragons attacking people was desire for new flavors, I found myself mentally captioning the brown dragon attacking adventurer pic:

You Haz a Flavr...Nom Nom Nom!

and then thinking of a Lolrus tinged Dragon & Sacrifice scene:

I Haz a Virjin

No they be taking my Virjin!

skywalker
2008-12-07, 04:46 PM
@^: I did too!


You know those Gibbering whatevers in the Monster Manual?
Throw a dragon into the mix. Yeah. That's what it is.

I must respectfully disagree. Those are "the floating islands of rotting flesh that drift across the leprous sky, raining blood." The red thing below them is "the great Blood Sea," one of countless layers of the abyss.

I think you're looking for "gibbering mouthers."

hamishspence
2008-12-07, 04:52 PM
the Squamous Maws, and other Squamous creatures, are, however, like draconic gibbering beasts.