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Froogleyboy
2008-12-06, 07:07 PM
I ask because they are supposed to be evil but their Monster Manual entry says "Usually evil" so they dont have to be evil right?

mikeejimbo
2008-12-06, 07:08 PM
Please, dear lord, no more good drow!

BRC
2008-12-06, 07:09 PM
Yes. Any race that says "Usually X" can be any alignment. You could have an order of Hobgoblin Paladins.

Although, you then run into the Drizzt Clone Problem...

insecure
2008-12-06, 07:10 PM
I ask because they are supposed to be evil but their Monster Manual entry says "Usually evil" so they dont have to be evil right?

Yes, but only if you can avoid the Drizzt problem.

Froogleyboy
2008-12-06, 07:11 PM
Me and the guys at the store i play at have been screaming at eachother for 3 hours now I brought up the MM and they brought up Drow of the underdark

kamikasei
2008-12-06, 07:14 PM
Yes, drow can be good; no, they're not likely to be; and if you're dealing with people willing to spend three hours in a screaming match over the issue, the correct answer doesn't particularly matter and you should walk/run away regardless.

Froogleyboy
2008-12-06, 07:20 PM
Well they said a good drow would be hunted down by an elite group called the "Kinslayers" and slaughterd

Smiley_
2008-12-06, 07:20 PM
They Can be good, though it doesn't mean you should try to play one.

Though trying to play one might seem like playing off as a Drizzt clone. Even if it wasn't your intention, you will almost always be accused of playing one if you do play a good aligned drow.

And if you can't get the point through to them, calmly explain that it is entirely possible for a succubus paladin to be made through the BoED. That should end the shouting.

If they still are screaming, don't scream back. It just escalates the matters.

Ecalsneerg
2008-12-06, 07:22 PM
There's somewhere in the MM where it explicitly says that usually, and even always, just mean 'the majority of'. I know it's in there, just not what page.

Froogleyboy
2008-12-06, 07:24 PM
we scream over everything at the store. the screamin' aint a big deal. It seems to be a touchy subject

mikeejimbo
2008-12-06, 07:26 PM
I think that any setting-specific information regarding that will trump the usual rules, too, right?

kamikasei
2008-12-06, 07:29 PM
Well they said a good drow would be hunted down by an elite group called the "Kinslayers" and slaughterd

I don't know about the specifics of that, but certainly it's extremely implausible to have a good-aligned Drow hanging out with other Drow in a Drow city doing Drow things without a problem. Drow society is thoroughly evil and doesn't like having good members any more than they want to participate in it.

This does not mean you can't have a good-aligned Drow, it just means that being good-aligned will have an impact on the character's past and development.

The archetypal good Drow is Drizzt, who lives as an exile and counts his home city among his mortal enemies.


There's somewhere in the MM where it explicitly says that usually, and even always, just mean 'the majority of'. I know it's in there, just not what page.

It's in the glossary - page 305.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-12-06, 07:43 PM
Though trying to play one might seem like playing off as a Drizzt clone. Even if it wasn't your intention, you will almost always be accused of playing one if you do play a good aligned drow.


I don't know why people still endorse this conception that every good drow must be a drizzt clone. You see it all over the place in these forums. Its really kinda sad.

Just because someone wants to play a good drow doesn't mean they want to be exactly like drizzt. Its really quite silly that people think of it so negatively.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-06, 08:00 PM
Me and the guys at the store i play at have been screaming at eachother for 3 hours now I brought up the MM and they brought up Drow of the underdark

Drow of the Underdark in no way contradicts this. Canonically, there are plenty of Neutral and Good drow. In Faerūn, for instance, there are small groups or clans of Eilistraee-worshipping Good drow - Eilistraee being the Good-aligned deity of renegade Good drow and dancing naked in the moonlight with a sword, or something.

The guys at the store are clearly stupid.

Good drow have a pretty impossible time existing within drow society (although at least drow priestesses no longer get detect good as a spell-like ability; unless they take some feats, anyway; I think it's now a domain spell though?), which is why they tend to flee to the surface to form their own communities, or else join non-drow Underdark societies that accommodate more alignments, like Skullport.


They Can be good, though it doesn't mean you should try to play one.

This is a stupid meme and should end. Playing Good-aligned drow is just fine. Clones of prominent fictional characters are bad and annoying no matter what character they're clones of - Drizzt, Sephiroth, Norman Bates, Vic Mackey, Master Chief, whatever.

monty
2008-12-06, 08:02 PM
Technically, even fiends can be good. They're not likely to, but it's possible.

Starbuck_II
2008-12-06, 08:04 PM
Technically, even fiends can be good. They're not likely to, but it's possible.

WotC even stated up a LG Paladin Demon (succubus).

kamikasei
2008-12-06, 08:05 PM
I don't know why people still endorse this conception that every good drow must be a drizzt clone. You see it all over the place in these forums. Its really kinda sad.

Just because someone wants to play a good drow doesn't mean they want to be exactly like drizzt. Its really quite silly that people think of it so negatively.

The post you quote is not saying "every good drow is a Drizzt clone". It's saying "every good drow is likely to be accused of being a Drizzt clone by other players. Take pains to avoid this criticism."

Now, this advice is flawed in two respects: it seems clear that neither the OP nor his friends have even heard of Drizzt, and at the same time it's not obviously good to go out of your way to avoid an unfair accusation rather than just saying "no, it's not a Drizzt clone, as will be clear if you just let me get on with playing it". But nor is your criticism of the advice fair.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-06, 08:39 PM
WotC even stated up a LG Paladin Demon (succubus).

More importantly, AD&D's Planescape had alignment-switched tanar'ri, baatezu, and celestials. (Although I think they mostly retained their Lawful-Chaotic axis alignment, which was the more significant one, in Planescape.)


The post you quote is not saying "every good drow is a Drizzt clone". It's saying "every good drow is likely to be accused of being a Drizzt clone by other players. Take pains to avoid this criticism."

Sounds like a great way to get a stilted, unnatural character. "Oh, no way can he be a ranger, or a TWF rogue/fighter! He'd be a Drizzt clone then!" If you build a character around trying to avoid other people's prejudice toward the most fundamental aspects ("good" and "drow"), you're going to limit yourself for absolutely no reason.

kamikasei
2008-12-06, 09:06 PM
If you build a character around trying to avoid other people's prejudice toward the most fundamental aspects ("good" and "drow"), you're going to limit yourself for absolutely no reason.

Well, yes. I said that myself, more or less.

Studoku
2008-12-06, 09:13 PM
Good drow aren't always Drizzt clones.

They usually are.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-12-06, 09:27 PM
The post you quote is not saying "every good drow is a Drizzt clone". It's saying "every good drow is likely to be accused of being a Drizzt clone by other players. Take pains to avoid this criticism."


Oh, I wasn't using the quote as the reason of my ire or anything. Rather I was quoting it in more of a QFT fasion. He said that most good drow are going to be accused of being a Drizzit clone, which I sadly agree with.

Sorry for the confusion.

mikeejimbo
2008-12-06, 09:28 PM
The only problem I have with characters who aren't of the usual alignment is that there's nothing preventing players from taking them. I realize that they should be allowed to play the character they want. In fact, playing an atypical character can be interesting. However, when everyone does it, it becomes typical, and one wonders whether "Usually X" actually means anything. There are a few things people don't seem to play, though. Chaotic Dwarves, for example, don't seem to be clichéd yet. It's interesting.

Either way, I prefer characters who tend to stick to the tried and true methods, including alignments. This, however, implies a lawful alignment. So is it actually lawful to play a chaotic character from a usually chaotic race? It's like, a paradox. :smalltongue:

T-O-E
2008-12-06, 09:36 PM
Nope, there have never been any good drow. Ever.

JadedDM
2008-12-06, 09:39 PM
I have nothing more to add other than to point out that the plural of "Drow" is still "Drow."

One Drow.
Two Drow.

Roderick_BR
2008-12-06, 09:40 PM
Well they said a good drow would be hunted down by an elite group called the "Kinslayers" and slaughterd
Yes. That's why good drows don't live in the underdark, and often escape to the daylight. To avoid being killed.
They are like the "evil" people in predominantly neutral/good creatures: Rare, and often hunted down.

KKL
2008-12-06, 09:43 PM
Don't be good, play a True Neutral Drow who honestly doens't care and /part the #underdark because relentless backstabbing and powermongering wasn't his thing.

But yes, Drow can be good and not be labelled a Drizzt. You'll get those jokes though, but hey, laugh it off.

Worira
2008-12-06, 09:46 PM
I have nothing more to add other than to point out that the plural of "Drow" is still "Drow."

One Drow.
Two Drow.

Red Drow.
Blue Drow.

monty
2008-12-06, 09:52 PM
Red Drow.
Blue Drow.

I lol'd at this.

Moff Chumley
2008-12-06, 09:57 PM
The point is, DON'T TRY IT! :smallmad:

Demented
2008-12-06, 10:10 PM
When in doubt, there's always the Helm of Opposite Alignment.

monty
2008-12-06, 10:11 PM
Whenever you want to know if something can happen, remember. The DM has ultimate control over everything. If he says it is or isn't, it is or isn't (respectively).

BobVosh
2008-12-06, 10:12 PM
I lol'd at this.

I curse at it cuz I was going to do it.


Is it bad I thought this was going to be another "is this class/race worthwhile" thread?

Gardakan
2008-12-06, 10:56 PM
They CAN be good. But i don't understand why you wanna play a race that bring more things to be evil...

Blue Ghost
2008-12-06, 11:25 PM
Drow can be good, that's quite clear. But I wonder how many drow actually are good? How many of them are able to get to the surface before being hunted down? I mean, Drizzt would have been killed almost immediately had he not been so crazy good with those swords.

Waspinator
2008-12-06, 11:31 PM
Of course they can be good. Any intelligent race can reject the culture it was raised in and make it's own moral decisions. The real problem is being good and not being killed by all of the evil drow. Basically, the backstory for such a character is much likely to be "raised by a colony of 'stray' drow that don't live with the main civilization" than "one-man army who somehow avoided death".

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-06, 11:38 PM
Drow can be good, that's quite clear. But I wonder how many drow actually are good? How many of them are able to get to the surface before being hunted down?

It's a bit unclear, but it looks like some thousands, maybe tens of thousands of Good drow on the surface of Faerūn (from the High Forest to the Dalelands) in the 1370s DR. There's probably more Evil but equally outcast drow - Vhaerunites and other heretics, as well as Lolth-worshippers forced out of their cities who've found portals onto the surface, or live in tunnels close to the surface.

Solaris
2008-12-06, 11:45 PM
Feh. The only good drow is a dead drow.

starburst98
2008-12-06, 11:49 PM
WotC even stated up a LG Paladin Demon (succubus).

wait, what?

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-07, 12:03 AM
Good drow have a pretty impossible time existing within drow society (although at least drow priestesses no longer get detect good as a spell-like ability; unless they take some feats, anyway; I think it's now a domain spell though?), which is why they tend to flee to the surface to form their own communities, or else join non-drow Underdark societies that accommodate more alignments, like Skullport.
I suppose this begs the question why Drizzt was never scanned with Detect Good at any point in his career. R.A. Salvatore sticks pretty hard to the magical and gameplay conventions of D&D, to the point that he actually uses the phrase "high-leveled wizard" once in Homeland. (Oops.)

LurkerInPlayground
2008-12-07, 12:04 AM
wait, what?
Because succubi are kinky.

And especially because misunderstood loners who reject the conventions of an evil society are the stuff of romantic heroism.

So there's the romantic kink factor.

mikeejimbo
2008-12-07, 12:06 AM
I suppose this begs the question why Drizzt was never scanned with Detect Good at any point in his career. R.A. Salvatore sticks pretty hard to the magical and gameplay conventions of D&D, to the point that he actually uses the phrase "high-leveled wizard" once in Homeland. (Oops.)

Plot Armor.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-12-07, 12:06 AM
I suppose this begs the question why Drizzt was never scanned with Detect Good at any point in his career. R.A. Salvatore sticks pretty hard to the magical and gameplay conventions of D&D, to the point that he actually uses the phrase "high-leveled wizard" once in Homeland. (Oops.)

Haha oh man. I must have missed that. I was going to re-read that first trilogy soon. I'll have to watch out for that.

KKL
2008-12-07, 12:12 AM
Feh. The only good drow is a dead drow.

Drizzt is a zombie?

Starscream
2008-12-07, 12:15 AM
Sure, Drow can be good. Their stat block reads "Usually Neutral Evil", and by the definitions in the Monster Manual, that just means that over half the race is of that alignment. Normal elves have "Usually Chaotic Good" in the same book, and nobody complains when they have a different alignment, just because they are a PHB race.

Granted, their society is an evil one, but seeing as they have a natural tendency towards chaos, worship a chaotic evil goddess, and yet try to run an ordered lawful(ish) society nonetheless, its no wonder they are a bit schizoid. Exceptions are bound to occur.

Still, people tend to whine whenever a creature isn't identical to its MM stat block, and seeing as there's a famous good Drow you're going to be accused of copying him no matter what you do. But there can be any number of back stories explaining why your Dark Elf doesn't see eye to eye with his or her kin. Maybe he was raised elsewhere, was rescued by a good character and saw the light, suffered some alignment changing magic, or just really wants to be a dentist (obscure?).

My own recommendation is to go True Neutral unless you want a class that requires otherwise. Even the most bloody minded players usually won't gripe too much if you are one step away from the racial norm. Actually that's not true, but at least they can probably find something better to gripe about.

Edit:
This post ended up rather long. Perhaps I should have just said "Yes, with the right barbecue sauce"

FMArthur
2008-12-07, 12:18 AM
I will personally dragon-kick the next player to approach me with a Good Drow character trying to overcome the negative cultural stigma associated with living underground in the dark for some reason and warshipping the deadly offspring of man/spider unions.

Solaris
2008-12-07, 12:23 AM
Drizzt is a zombie?

No, no. Ghoul.

Froogleyboy
2008-12-07, 12:51 AM
just so were clear, I wasn't wanting to be a good drow i just wanted to confirm that I'm right :smallcool:

Mark Hall
2008-12-07, 01:00 AM
Everyone knows there are more renegade drow than evil drow. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/d/20050711.html)

However, on point, it looks like your DM has some specific structures set up in his game (these Kinslayers) who will make the life of anyone playing a renegade drow hell. It's a legacy of Drizzt, to be sure... I remember when every 3rd person on the AOL D&D forums was talking about their drow named "something'something". Unless your character absolutely requires it, I'd go with something a bit less likely to result in the DM being petty at your character.

Xyk
2008-12-07, 01:02 AM
Good drow aren't always Drizzt clones.

They usually are.

Haha! I get it.

RebelRogue
2008-12-07, 02:22 PM
Drizzt is a zombie?
No, you're mistaking him for his father :smallwink:

lisiecki
2008-12-07, 02:26 PM
I ask because they are supposed to be evil but their Monster Manual entry says "Usually evil" so they dont have to be evil right?

every drow is good
every drow leaves there city because of the injustice
every drow fights the hate they face because every drow but them is evil

Play a drow, take favored foe Humans/dwarves/elves

Spend your nights putting sharp things in peoples eyes

Zer Kaizer
2008-12-07, 02:37 PM
I always wanted my first character to be a good or neutral Drow monk, that is until I found out people don't like good drow.

As for making a Drizzt clone, not much of a chance of that happening with me.

I don't know anything about Drizzt and I am way too creative to make a clone of a character.

Mark Hall
2008-12-07, 02:50 PM
I always wanted my first character to be a good or neutral Drow monk, that is until I found out people don't like good drow.

As for making a Drizzt clone, not much of a chance of that happening with me.

I don't know anything about Drizzt and I am way too creative to make a clone of a character.

Well, if you don't know anything about him, you're actually more likely to make a clone than if you do and consciously avoid them. With that in mind, take a look at his Wikipedia entry, and see if any of those things (specifically, his emo obsession with being accepted by the daysiders) were things that appealed to you.

Morty
2008-12-07, 02:55 PM
What I find funny about such debates is that people who claim that "Usually Evil races have only 1% of non-evil speciemen" and the like often wouldn't blink at an evil elf or dwarf.

Inhuman Bot
2008-12-07, 03:00 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html

Also,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape_Torment
specificly, fall from grace.

Zer Kaizer
2008-12-07, 03:00 PM
Well, if you don't know anything about him, you're actually more likely to make a clone than if you do and consciously avoid them. With that in mind, take a look at his Wikipedia entry, and see if any of those things (specifically, his emo obsession with being accepted by the daysiders) were things that appealed to you.

Just glanced over his wiki entry. I need to read the books before I judge this character, but I'm pretty sure anything I crank out isn't gonna resemble Drizzt in the slightest.

I write stories for fun, so a good back story is a must.

Mark Hall
2008-12-07, 03:08 PM
What I find funny about such debates is that people who claim that "Usually Evil races have only 1% of non-evil speciemen" and the like often wouldn't blink at an evil elf or dwarf.

Good point.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-07, 03:10 PM
To be honest, I just class racial fluff as being steriotypes rather then something you have to stick to. (Eg: both of the LA 0 Gnolls I;ve made so far have been Good-aligned Divine Casters with issues with unnecessary violence and maxed out Diplomacy, while the only non-half animal character I've ever made was a LE Halfling Beguiller who acts like Wesker from the Residant Evil games.)

BRC
2008-12-07, 03:20 PM
Personally, I throw out all racial fluff that isn't neccissarily ground in ther stats, especially the alignment stuff (Except for outsiders). My current campaign has a high-int high-cha LN leaning LG Ogre Mafia Don.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-07, 03:21 PM
Well, if you don't know anything about him, you're actually more likely to make a clone than if you do and consciously avoid them.

What?

It is not possible to copy a character you don't know. That's obvious. And like I already said, "consciously avoiding" resembling another character is just going to make your character stilted and unnatural.

Optimystik
2008-12-07, 03:21 PM
What I find funny about such debates is that people who claim that "Usually Evil races have only 1% of non-evil speciemen" and the like often wouldn't blink at an evil elf or dwarf.

The standards are different. An evil society is more likely to be scanning its young for signs of good so they can be "properly re-educated." (Read: killed.)A good society is more trusting (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupidChaoticStupid) and so a subversive element can hide more effectively. Therefore coming across evil moon elves and shield dwarves is a more common occurrence than good drow and friendly mind flayers. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysChaoticEvil)

Zer Kaizer
2008-12-07, 03:39 PM
The standards are different. An evil society is more likely to be scanning its young for signs of good so they can be "properly re-educated." (Read: killed.)A good society is more trusting (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupidChaoticStupid) and so a subversive element can hide more effectively. Therefore coming across evil moon elves and shield dwarves is a more common occurrence than good drow and friendly mind flayers. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysChaoticEvil)

There's a couple of ways to get past that. The said Drow could have been abandoned at birth in some place other than said evil society.

Or said drow could start out evil and have a life altering experience that made him/her leave the side of evil.

I can think of plenty of ways a drow could stop being evil without being killed at a young age.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-07, 03:41 PM
I tend to see having most societies as being neutral in general helps a lot (some groups may be strongly good or evil in my games, though).

hamishspence
2008-12-07, 03:42 PM
drow have a bigger excuse for occasionally being Good- they don't have to eat intelligent species just to keep their health up (LoM)

the most Evil version of the Drow- even worse than those of Drow of the Underdark- were the ones in Dragon 298, nicknamed the "Drowconomicon" Any drow reaching adulthood has almost certainly killed several of its fellow children along the way, in this version- even pre-teen drow are very dangerous to adventurers.

Thankfully, Drow of the Underdark didn't take it this far.

Immutep
2008-12-07, 03:50 PM
Yes it is perfectly possible for Drow to be good. This however doesn't explain the difficulties that a Drow would face if they were good. Unable to safely interact with their own kind yet almost certainly going to be stereotyped as evil by everyone else they meet and so likely to get into fights/jail on a regular basis (think african americans just after they were freed on mass in america and then tripple the level of hostility) Certain races will be inclined to kill first ask questions later (only possible with comune with dead spell i know!)

P.s. unrelated note, somebody said something hilarious which is now my signature! PM me if you want it removed and i will reluctantly do so.

Typo! :smallredface:

hamishspence
2008-12-07, 03:55 PM
depends how enthusiastic Drow matrons are about Detect Evil (Detect thought is apparently something of a no-no- even if powerful characters sometimes break that rule.

Also, there is the possibility of Neutral, rather than good- thats more likely- less detection properties, but the same alienation.

the leader of the drow group you can ally with in City of the Spider Queen adventure is CN- other party members are mostly Evil though.

Compared to most, a Neutral, hoping to become Good, Drow is pretty heroic.

Narmoth
2008-12-07, 04:02 PM
However, on point, it looks like your DM has some specific structures set up in his game (these Kinslayers) who will make the life of anyone playing a renegade drow hell. It's a legacy of Drizzt, to be sure... I remember when every 3rd person on the AOL D&D forums was talking about their drow named "something'something". Unless your character absolutely requires it, I'd go with something a bit less likely to result in the DM being petty at your character.

It's like playing a paladin with a dm that tries to make you instant-fall every session.

This is how I solved the problem in my campaign:
The concept of the campaign is that there is a drow city deep beneath the human town, and the drow have started a (pathetically unsuccessful) war on the humans.
Alignmentvice, most drow are lawful evil (not chaotic evil), which enables them to have a feaudal society of sorts, and keeps the bloodshed down more than in a chaotic evil society.
Now, partially because of divine powers, partially of historical reasons (mingling between drow and surface elf culture), there is a considerable fraction of good drow in the city. Some of them are, helped by various cloaking devices, in places of high power, and are thus able to help the other good drow to survive.
The good drow, led by the priestess of Nienna (I use Tolkien Valar as the good gods, and fallen mayar as evil gods under the influence of Melkor), have formed a resistance movement and are planning to overthrow the government that is weakened by it's unsuccessful war.

In this situation, the group enters the drow city, and will be of use to both sides as spies and allies.

With this fluff I am able to make an evil drow society and justify the rather large amount of good drow npcs

hamishspence
2008-12-07, 04:06 PM
Drow are NE, with usually CE leaders, in 3.5. Not so much a Chaotic Evil society as a NE one with Chaotic tendencies.

Still- it is true that LE Gets Things Done better- I remember seeing drow statted as typically LE in 2nd ed, though that was in Basic games- more detailed ones covering full society probably defaulted to NE and CE.

Raistlin1040
2008-12-07, 04:12 PM
To everyone saying ever good drow turns out like Drizzt, I disagree. One of my favorite characters was a LG Drow Paladin of Athena I played. Basically, he was always fearful that he would lose his paladin powers simply by being a drow, so he was always very Good, and fairly Lawful, though he turned a blind eye on occasion when the party did some less than Lawful things.

Never got any Drizzt jokes from the other players or the DM, after the initial 'Good Drow ALERT!' when I announced my character.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-07, 04:14 PM
AD&D 2E drow were Lawful Evil, yeah. Lolth was still CE though. Go figure.

Theirs is a weird society. It's codified Chaotic Evil - because pure Chaotic Evil ends up not working very well and remaining pretty primitive. So their caprice is curtailed by rules that are enforced capriciously. It's Chaotic and Lawful, but not really Neutral either.

Just goes to show that the alignment system can't really accommodate anything complicated.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-07, 04:16 PM
I'm suddenly tempted to make a LE Drow Beguiler(Rogue? Factotum? Sorcerer) using Undetectable Alignment to pass himself off as a CG Drow Rebel who hates his homeland and spy's on the surface dwellers.

hamishspence
2008-12-07, 04:18 PM
Silver Marches already has a Drow Ranger called Cirre- spy who takes advantage of the reputation of a certain other Drow Ranger to get people to believe Drow Rangers are Good, while secretly supplying info to Menzoberranzan.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-07, 04:19 PM
I would expect there to be a lot of such infiltrators. After all, there's an entire subrace of "albino" drow in DotU whose purpose is to infiltrate surface elf communities.

hamishspence
2008-12-07, 04:23 PM
yes- albino drow were much rarer before then. They did get mentioned though- one in the Maztica trilogy, one in City of the Spider Queen.

Eilistraee followers tended to operate near Waterdeep, and still had to avoid towns, unless using magic. So ones who play the "I'm a Good Drow" card wouldn't be all that common- Cirre is the most obvious one in a rulebook.

mikeejimbo
2008-12-07, 05:54 PM
P.s. unrelated note, somebody said something hilarious which is now my signature! PM me if you want it removed and i will reluctantly do so.

Actually, I'm very amused by it. :smallbiggrin:

JadedDM
2008-12-07, 06:22 PM
AD&D 2E drow were Lawful Evil, yeah. Lolth was still CE though. Go figure.

What? My AD&D 2E Monster Manual reads "Chaotic Evil" for Drow.

Anyway, the eye-rolling for good Drow is not directly because of Drizzt. It's because of all of the copycats. I used to play in an online chat RPG (they were all the rage, back before MMORPGs were popular), and there were dozens of good Drow. In fact, now that I think about it, every Drow in that game was good. This was made all the stranger by the fact that the chatroom was based in Dragonlance. We had more Drow (all good) then we did Qualinesti, Silvanesti, and Kagonesti put together!

They were so prominent, that even later on, when the mods tried to push things to be more Dragonlance-esque, they still left in a grandfather clause for Drow because there would have been riots; plus, most of the mods had at least one good Drow, as well.

So yeah, it's due to our personal experiences, not a hatred for Drizzt (although I'm hardly a fan) or an obsession with sticking with the MM guidelines. If a player of mine wanted to play a good Drow, I'd probably roll my eyes initially, too. Luckily, that won't happen, because in my current homebrew world, there are no sub-races and therefore, no Drow.

Mark Hall
2008-12-07, 06:33 PM
What?

It is not possible to copy a character you don't know. That's obvious. And like I already said, "consciously avoiding" resembling another character is just going to make your character stilted and unnatural.

If the person doesn't know anything about Drizzt, it wouldn't be an amazing stretch for them to come up with a drow who is emo about his not being liked by humans and his disassociation from his evil kin. In a general sort of way, it's not a bad story, with good role-playing possibilities.

However, if you know Drizzt's story, you know that's more or less what he is, and you can construct a character who is a bit different... one who was raised in a surface drow community, for example, who doesn't really get the emo of his elders. He's mostly accepted by the humans in his area (because they've lived for at least a generation with good-natured drow nearby), and so he's not used to the paranoia that his elders lived with.

Optimystik
2008-12-07, 06:42 PM
There's a couple of ways to get past that. The said Drow could have been abandoned at birth in some place other than said evil society.

Or said drow could start out evil and have a life altering experience that made him/her leave the side of evil.

I can think of plenty of ways a drow could stop being evil without being killed at a young age.

My point wasn't that good drow are impossible (Clearly, they aren't.) My point is that good drow are less common than evil members of surface races, for good reason.

Doomsy
2008-12-07, 07:54 PM
I'm actually pretty sure at least one setting (FR?) had actual surface communities of good or at least neutral Drow. They were Ellistrae worshippers of some stripe, I believe, and a fair number had actually survived escaping the Underdark before breeding on the surface with like-minded Drow. They were not really large and mostly of the hidden variety, but it does pay to note that any such enclave of good aligned drow would both be comprised of fairly skilled and hardened survivalists and their children, and probably have Ellistrae watching it carefully.

Zer Kaizer
2008-12-08, 02:33 AM
My point wasn't that good drow are impossible (Clearly, they aren't.) My point is that good drow are less common than evil members of surface races, for good reason.

I apologize. I misunderstood your post.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-12-08, 03:04 AM
The only problem I have with characters who aren't of the usual alignment is that there's nothing preventing players from taking them. I realize that they should be allowed to play the character they want. In fact, playing an atypical character can be interesting. However, when everyone does it, it becomes typical, and one wonders whether "Usually X" actually means anything.

This is certainly a fine point to have. I would argue that the "Usually X" in the monster manual refers specifically to the creature as a monster though. Just as its habitat or group entry does not apply to the player, nor does its alignment. In this case, a good drow does not dilute the meaning of "Usually Evil," because of the rest of the world's massive drow population which is almost overwhelmingly evil.

Setting that aside, if your group or campaign world does not allow for good drow, then that is that. I would say the DM would be better served if he tried his absolute best to say "yes" to any reasonable player request (and reasonable a good drow certainly is). Still, if the DM has taken the time to create his world, and his world, say, does not include dragons at all, then it wouldn't do much goodd to have a paladin of bahamut as your character concept.

Narmoth
2008-12-08, 03:50 AM
What? My AD&D 2E Monster Manual reads "Chaotic Evil" for Drow.

Yeah, in the revised AD&D 2nd ed Monster Manual (that came out in 95 or something) they are CE. But in the first version of 2nd ed?

Immutep
2008-12-08, 03:01 PM
Actually, I'm very amused by it. :smallbiggrin:

Cool, glad to hear it! :smallbiggrin:

Blackfang108
2008-12-08, 03:58 PM
What?

It is not possible to copy a character you don't know. That's obvious. And like I already said, "consciously avoiding" resembling another character is just going to make your character stilted and unnatural.

I agree.

The entirety of what I know about D- is that he uses scimitars.

I'm making a Drow Bravura Warlord analogue of Kamina from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

I figure it'll get plenty of laughs.

Especially when I use Inspiring Word

Zen Master
2008-12-08, 04:49 PM
I ask because they are supposed to be evil but their Monster Manual entry says "Usually evil" so they dont have to be evil right?

You are entitled to make all the same mistakes all the rest of us likely did at one time in our long and illustrious roleplaying careers.

But honestly - yes, drow can be good, but no, generally speaking the aren't, and never should be.

They should be the vilest, most hideously sadistic, needlessly cruel and barbarous bastards the underdark ever managed to spawn.

hamishspence
2008-12-08, 04:52 PM
Dragon magazine's Drowconomicon issue did them that way- it got old fast- and the Phil and Dixie comic at the end parodied it rather well.

Narmoth
2008-12-26, 07:20 AM
I agree.

The entirety of what I know about D- is that he uses scimitars.

I'm making a Drow Bravura Warlord analogue of Kamina from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

I figure it'll get plenty of laughs.

Especially when I use Inspiring Word

Actually I had a drow npc that dual wielded longswords (don't use scimitars in my setting) and was CG, and I haven't read any of the D-books.

kalt
2008-12-26, 09:17 AM
I'm going to go with they must be inherintly evil. This is so I never have to see someone play a drow in a good campaing.

Talya
2008-12-26, 09:26 AM
People bitching about "good drow" caused WotC to kill off the best deity in FR in a recent series of books. (These are probably the same people who want their paladin to be able to walk into a village of orcs and slaughter every last orc male, female, and infant, and not fall from grace.)

However, as none of the events that lead into Living Forgotten Realms 4.0 actually ever happened, and it's all some sick alternate universe that FR Creator-god Ed Greenwood has disavowed and doesn't acknowledge, Eillistraee is alive and well.

Look her up, Forgotten Realms Faiths & Pantheons. More awesome drow roleplaying and storyline depth than you can imagine.

hamishspence
2008-12-26, 09:30 AM
Yes- I do think the killing off of drow deities was uncalled for. Selvetarm, Vhaerun, Kiaransalee, they were interesting.

the "only good orc is a dead orc" idea began to recede after The Orc King, but yes, thats the main reason I like BoED. Whatever its vices, it explicitly states that massacring villages of "evil" orc/goblins/drow is Not OK.

Talya
2008-12-26, 09:35 AM
Not that it's impossible, but I'd take more exception to lawful drow than good drow. Drow are first and foremost chaotic creatures. Even Lolth herself is more the essence of chaos than evil (she is still evil enough to make a Balor crap itself, but that's not the point.) Elves are chaotic beings as a whole--the entire Seldarine and Dark Seldarine are chaotic pantheons, but Drow are chaos on a whole new level. This is the same regardless of them being good or evil.

SurlySeraph
2008-12-26, 02:21 PM
Not that it's impossible, but I'd take more exception to lawful drow than good drow. Drow are first and foremost chaotic creatures. Even Lolth herself is more the essence of chaos than evil (she is still evil enough to make a Balor crap itself, but that's not the point.) Elves are chaotic beings as a whole--the entire Seldarine and Dark Seldarine are chaotic pantheons, but Drow are chaos on a whole new level. This is the same regardless of them being good or evil.

Then why is the sample Drow listed as "Usually Neutral Evil"? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm)

Talya
2008-12-26, 02:25 PM
Then why is the sample Drow listed as "Usually Neutral Evil"? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm)

That's hard to justify, based on fluff, though.

Furthermore, with every single lolth-worshipping drow female being a cleric (All of them, by fluff, must train as clerics), lawful evil spider-kissing female drow are an impossibility. Heck, any divine caster drow worshipping a drow god cannot be lawful.