The power of Scent (3.5)

[hotel_papa]

Settle an argument, playground. My wife and I play in a friend's game. She's a hafling rogue with the racial substitution levels, who specialized in hiding then smacking for SA. We were up against a bevy of worgs and my DM was convinced that because they were detecting her with scent (but not pin-pointing) they were not flat-footed. I argued that this was (we'll call it) hogwash. Once someone throws a rock at you, you know they're there, nevermind how they smell. Doesn't mean you can defend yourself properly, unless you see them.

Thoughts?

[Aneantir]

I believe they'd still be flat-footed. If they had pinpointed him, I'd say they'd avoid SA, but since they only know he's "Somewhere within 30ft of that direction", then thats not a whole lot to go on.

[Jasdoif]

I doubt they'd be surprised, but in the absence of special abilities that specifically state otherwise they're still flat-footed until they first act in combat.

[hotel_papa]

I'm not arguing that they wouldn't be flat-footed in the first round. I'm arguing that they would be until they either came within 5' and pinpointed or made a spot check that beat her hide check. They did neither. They merely were within scent range.

Honestly, it's a reoccuring theme, denying her SA. The first fight after a whole mess of undead? Six barbarians only two levels below us. It's just mean.

[Jasdoif]

I'm not arguing that they wouldn't be flat-footed in the first round. I'm arguing that they would be until they either came within 5' and pinpointed or made a spot check that beat her hide check. They did neither. They merely were within scent range.If your wife's character did manage to successfully hide from a particular worg, that worg would not get its Dex bonus to AC against her, and thus she could sneak attack it. In order to pinpoint her location via scent, the worg would have to come within 5 feet; otherwise they would need to beat her Hide check result with a Spot check.

It remains that they would be flat-footed until they acted in combat.

[MeklorIlavator]

If this keeps up, she could try the Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness, as it specifically blocks scent and such abilities.

[hotel_papa]

Actually, she took it at 6th level. Then, the damn barbarians. It is kinda infuriating. Especially, since, at the same time, he thinks all wands have a minimum caster level of 5, reguardless of price, because that's the caster level you need for the craft wand feat. Naturally, his girlfriend, the cleric of boccob that gave up turn undead for some arcane spells, dominated until about level 5 or so. I argued that by that logic, all rings are CL 12 and a ring of protection +1 therefore grants a +4 deflection bonus to AC. He got pissed.

The things we deal with to be able to play instead of always DMing all the time. Just wish he wasn't always getting high before the game.

Bah, now I'm just whining.

[The Glyphstone]

There's the unmagic words - DM's girlfriend. You cannot have a fair, balanced, and enjoyable game session when this CR-Infinity+ challenge is put into play against you.

Really, take a hard long look at if doing this is worth the frustration you're going through with a blatantly hostile DM who's also openly favoring another player over you two.

[TempusCCK]

Uhh, I would houserule that she still gets sneak attack, if only because they don't know exactly where she is... so they wouldn't know exactly where she's coming from.

[Diarmuid]

Part of the problem is that you are going at the argument re: the worgs in the wrong way.

The worgs are not in-fact "flat-footed" unless they have not yet acted in a round, are standing in grease and dont make a dc 10 balance check, or a couple of other specialized conditions.

What the rogue is trying to do, is deny them their dexterity. Denying someone their dexterity qualifies them for being sneak attacked. Attacking from hidden, is like attacking from invisibility, which specifically states that targets are denied their dexterity.

Whether the targets know of the "presence" of an attacker is useless. If you cast Detect Undead and in the first round you are aware of the presence of undead in the room, and then on the second round you concentrate and find out there are 4 undead in the room....those invisible vampires with levels of rogue are still going to sneak attack the **** out of you.

[Harp]

It should play out as if the rogue is invisible and attacking, which would entail a sneak attack. In the best case scenario the worgs might be aware of her presence and not flat-footed during the first round of combat because they usually take defensive stances at the first sniff of anything peculiar, but even then they would still take a -2 penalty on the old AC check and get that sneak damage tacked on (assuming they didn't make the spot or listen).

Regardless of what I feel about the rules in this instance, it sounds as if you guys aren't having as much fun as you should be. You might consider a non-confrontational way to approach the topic before the next game in order to make sure everyone has a more enjoyable experience.

[Epinephrine]

Settle an argument, playground. My wife and I play in a friend's game. She's a hafling rogue with the racial substitution levels, who specialized in hiding then smacking for SA. We were up against a bevy of worgs and my DM was convinced that because they were detecting her with scent (but not pin-pointing) they were not flat-footed. I argued that this was (we'll call it) hogwash. Once someone throws a rock at you, you know they're there, nevermind how they smell. Doesn't mean you can defend yourself properly, unless you see them.

Thoughts?

She certainly would deny them their dex bonus with her attack (singular), but will reveal herself by attacking. Only the first such attack gains a SA bonus.

If she is sniping, she is attempting to hide before, during, and after the attack. This entails a -20 to her Hide check. If she can do that, she can essentially attack while they're unaware, and be completely hidden the whole time. Beating the worg's senses by 20 would be difficult, but doable with some magical assistance I suspect. Some might notice her presence, but unless they took a feat or skill trick to point her out, they can only try to give her location away by talking about it ("She's in the shadows, behind the big oak!"). That by itself doesn't reveal her, but might give a bonus to their rolls to see her. The Able Sniper feat reduces the sniping penalty to -10, IIRC, which is handy if she's going to play a sniper-style rogue.

[Immutep]

I admit that i'm not an expert in these matters (especially since the rogue in our group is blatantly abusing the sneak attack ability) But i thought that awarness of your advisary simply meant no surprise round? It shouldn't make a difference to whatever circumstances might deny a rogue SA in any way. Although as somebody else pointed out, it's tricky to maintain this level of being hidden if firing multiple times from a fixed point.

[Hzurr]

But i thought that awarness of your advisary simply meant no surprise round? It shouldn't make a difference to whatever circumstances might deny a rogue SA in any way.

That's how I've always understood it. If they are aware of you and you of them, everyone rolls init together. Now, if the rogue rolls a high init check, and gets to attack first, the rogue still gets sneak attack. However, as soon as someone goes, they are no longer flatfooted, and the rogue will have to find a way to deny sneak attack.

-edit-
Also, the title of the thread makes me think of that song "The Power of Love" that was in the first Back to the Future movie. For some reason my head is saying it's by Huey Louis, but I don't trust my head very much.

[AslanCross]

It seems to me your DM's just trying to prevent the use of sneak attack, especially when the barbarians were mentioned. Not very nice.

As far as I can tell the inability to pinpoint an unseen character still grants sneak attack. Scent is kind of like Listen in this case---it just tells you that someone is there. Denied their dex bonus, Worgs get hit by SneakAtk. This may be a moot point anyway since they would be flat-footed (ie, have not yet acted in the turn.)

Once she attacks, though, she "decloaks" so to speak.