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DrizztFan24
2008-12-08, 07:57 PM
Alright, so tonight our DM ruled that the Dragon Shaman's Energy Shield Aura only affects each attacking creature once per round. I was of the opinion that effects were added per successful hit. Which is it?

Tacoma
2008-12-08, 08:00 PM
Your DM might be ruling that way for game balance because he realized that anyone who hits you dies.

I'd think a compromise that involved one discharge per class level per round might be appropriate, preserving your ability to waste the dude who spanks you with his 8 attacks.

But what does the text say?

DrizztFan24
2008-12-08, 08:04 PM
Energy Shield:Any creature striking you or your ally with a natural attack or a nonreach melee weapon is dealt two points of energy damage for each point of your aura bonus. The energy type is that of your totem dragon's damage dealing breath weapon.

Aura bonuses go up one every 5 levels.

RebelRogue
2008-12-08, 08:10 PM
As I read it, it applies to every attack. Which really isn't overpowered since Dragon Shamans aren't all that good in the first place.

UserClone
2008-12-08, 08:11 PM
It is per strike, RAW. I have no idea why your DM is making a big deal about this. It's one of the few interesting powers of the Dragon Shaman.:smallconfused:

Starbuck_II
2008-12-08, 08:12 PM
Alright, so tonight our DM ruled that the Dragon Shaman's Energy Shield Aura only affects each attacking creature once per round. I was of the opinion that effects were added per successful hit. Which is it?

DM houseruled.

It is per attack by the rules. The best you can do is appeal to his good nature (he is good aligned right...maybe try his lawful nature?).

Kinda a damper on the ability to limit it.

I mean, it is only 2 per bonus (max 10 when level 20 and get +5 bonus if I remember progression).

Thurbane
2008-12-08, 09:40 PM
I'm currently playing a Copper Dragon Shaman, and I'm finding the class a bit...meh. I'm currently being overshadowed by the Dwarf Fighter (who with his 2 handed Power Attacks is dealing a ton of damage) and the Elf Beguiler (spamming Confusion etc.).

To nerf one of the few useful features of the class is a poor call by the DM IMHO. I find Energy Shield to be one of the more useful auras that the DS has. Senses is good outside of combat, and Vigor is nice when resting, but Energy Shield is the one I tend to use most in combat.

UserClone
2008-12-08, 09:52 PM
So what I said, but more explicitly reasoned. Well put, Thurbane.

Thurbane
2008-12-08, 09:58 PM
Thanks. :smallsmile:

I was really eager to play a DS when we started EttRoG, but as I said, I'm finding the class to be a little underpowered. Our group is Human Dragon Shaman, Dwarf Fighter, Grey Elf Beguiler, Deep Dwarf Monk and Halfling Druid.

At the moment, the Fighter and Beguiler are taking out the bulk of the enemies, with the rest of us doing the mopping up (yes, even the much vaunted Druid - admittedly, the player is very new to the class, so he's not fully exploiting it)...

Person_Man
2008-12-08, 10:09 PM
It's a ridiculously weak class. DM is nerfing it for no reason. Point out to him that you have 3/4 BAB, that your auras scale very poorly, and that your breath weapon sucks.

UserClone
2008-12-08, 10:22 PM
It's pretty much a flavor class. Next time, play a Dragonborn(breath) Fighter with the Dragonscale Husk ACF. All the flavor, less of the suck. Or you could just be a Silverbrow Human.:smallamused:

Mando Knight
2008-12-08, 10:26 PM
It's pretty much a flavor class. Next time, play a Dragonborn(breath) Fighter with the Dragonscale Husk ACF. All the flavor, less of the suck. Or you could just be a Silverbrow Human.:smallamused:

Dragonborn(breath) Cleric. Much better.

RebelRogue
2008-12-08, 10:56 PM
It's a ridiculously weak class. DM is nerfing it for no reason. Point out to him that you have 3/4 BAB, that your auras scale very poorly, and that your breath weapon sucks.
As a friend of mine put it, it is in many ways comparable to a crappy bard...

Kizara
2008-12-08, 11:21 PM
It's a ridiculously weak class. DM is nerfing it for no reason. Point out to him that you have 3/4 BAB, that your auras scale very poorly, and that your breath weapon sucks.

Someone needs to do a re-write of it (to save me the effort!).

Person_Man
2008-12-08, 11:34 PM
Someone needs to do a re-write of it (to save me the effort!).

They did. It's called the Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2). Same fluff. Breath weapon. Dragon themed abilities. Much more fun and useful.

Asbestos
2008-12-08, 11:56 PM
They did. It's called the Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2). Same fluff. Breath weapon. Dragon themed abilities. Much more fun and useful.

Well, really the Dragonfire Adept is like a Warlock with dragon stuff and the Dragon Shaman is a Marshall with dragon stuff.

Townopolis
2008-12-09, 12:03 AM
It's possible that he's reacting to the fact that stuff like that (it's basically reverse DR) screws over TWF, but does very little to deter THF. In other words, he's not really thinking of the balance of the game at hand, but thinking of the balance of the game rules in general.

Changing it to once per round would be acceptable... but you'd want to double, triple, or possibly quadruple the base damage.

i.e. if it did 6 points of damage per level of the aura, 1/round/attacker would be more balanced than its current incarnation.

Draz74
2008-12-09, 12:53 AM
Well, really the Dragonfire Adept is like a Warlock with dragon stuff and the Dragon Shaman is a Marshall with dragon stuff.

QFT.

The Dragon Shaman really could use a bit of homebrewing to spice it up. Not sure what. Personally, I really like the idea of boosting its healing/buffing abilities until it truly becomes a shaman, able to take over the Cleric role while remaining mediocre in combat. I guess the easiest way to do that would just be to make its auras scale faster.

Two optimization tips (as-is) to bear in mind, though:

Caduceus Bracers from MIC
Dual Draconic Aura feat from Dragon Magic.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-09, 12:55 AM
The Dragon Shaman really could use a bit of homebrewing to spice it up. Not sure what. Personally, I really like the idea of boosting its healing/buffing abilities until it truly becomes a shaman, able to take over the Cleric role while remaining mediocre in combat. I guess the easiest way to do that would just be to make its auras scale faster.Reflavored Spirit Shaman?

Thurbane
2008-12-09, 02:08 AM
Two optimization tips (as-is) to bear in mind, though:

Caduceus Bracers from MIC
Dual Draconic Aura feat from Dragon Magic.

I've currently got an Amulet of Retributive Healing (I use a Vicious Morningstar), but the Caduceus Bracers are one of the next items on my shopping list. The Dragon Spirit Cincture is up there too. My next feat is going to be Maximize Breath, then Double Draconic Aura at 12th.

My role at the moment is usually "flanking buddy" with the Monk. I have Vexing Flanker, and Intimidating Strike, and the Monk uses his Stunning Fist. I'm also a decent healer, with 18 CHA.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-09, 02:47 AM
I started a thread about rebalancing them on another forum: http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php/topic,113.0.html (the GitP version was ignored:smallfrown:).

Burley
2008-12-09, 09:06 AM
On the original topic: The DM isn't making an intelligent ruling. Talk to him/her about it, and there's a good chance that s/he'll take it back. I have, on occasion, made a stupid ruling just because a certain thing tore about a single encounter. It isn't fair to do that.
If s/he insists on keeping the ruling, insist on being able to take a different aura. It isn't fair to houserule something about a character's power half-way through a session. You took the power under the assumption that it worked a certain way, and you don't want it if it doesn't work that way. This is a fair argument, and, hopefully, your DM will concede to one of the suggestions.

On the offsprung topic: Dragon Shaman, in my experience, can be frustrating for a DM, especially if the auras chosen focus on weakening enemies, instead of strengthening allies. Especially when it's in a gestalt campaign and the other side of the gestalt is a powerful stand-alone class. It's one of those classes that is ho-hum, but a great option for most gestalt builds (that aren't cheesy.)

Gestalt (and multi-classed to a lesser degree) Dragonfire Adepts/Dragon Shamans are pretty solid. Both are mid-to-lower tier, but work well together.

Starbuck_II
2008-12-09, 09:12 AM
I'm currently playing a Copper Dragon Shaman, and I'm finding the class a bit...meh. I'm currently being overshadowed by the Dwarf Fighter (who with his 2 handed Power Attacks is dealing a ton of damage) and the Elf Beguiler (spamming Confusion etc.).

To nerf one of the few useful features of the class is a poor call by the DM IMHO. I find Energy Shield to be one of the more useful auras that the DS has. Senses is good outside of combat, and Vigor is nice when resting, but Energy Shield is the one I tend to use most in combat.

I find Resistance to be good myself: who doesn't want energy resistance?

Granted, the energy resistance given is low, but if there is a Reth Dekala in the party you only need a tiny bit (otherwise the Reth Dekala will kill any commoner standing beside him).
Situationally useful I know.

But yeah, if he nerfs Energy Shield to 1/round, he should quadruple the bonus damage.
So it does 4 x instead of 2x bonus.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-09, 09:28 AM
On the offsprung topic: Dragon Shaman, in my experience, can be frustrating for a DM, especially if the auras chosen focus on weakening enemies, instead of strengthening allies. Especially when it's in a gestalt campaign and the other side of the gestalt is a powerful stand-alone class. It's one of those classes that is ho-hum, but a great option for most gestalt builds (that aren't cheesy.)

Gestalt (and multi-classed to a lesser degree) Dragonfire Adepts/Dragon Shamans are pretty solid. Both are mid-to-lower tier, but work well together.

Right. A player of mine is playing a Dragonfire Adept //Dragon Shaman in my current Gestalt campaign. The race and the powers selected make him "a man for all the seasons" and environment, and even uncapable of damage bursts, resilient, very hard to keep in pressure about resources, and important for the party health. We call him "the mob", intended as wandering monster in MMORPG, because his class abilities and resistances make him more similar to something you can find in a monster manual than in a player handbook. :smallbiggrin:

Big flavour, too.

evisiron
2008-12-09, 10:17 AM
I can see this as something of a knee jerk reaction, but as mentioned by other people before, its not a good decision.

And I agree that DS is a fun gestalt class. My girlfriend played an excellent DS/Barbarian at one point. :smallsmile:

Kizara
2008-12-09, 10:22 AM
I can see this as something of a knee jerk reaction, but as mentioned by other people before, its not a good decision.

And I agree that DS is a fun gestalt class. My girlfriend played an excellent DS/Barbarian at one point. :smallsmile:

Honestly, warlock does more for you even if you don't use the blast.

That, or fighter levels. I mean, I can never get the feats I want as a barbarian.

Person_Man
2008-12-09, 12:12 PM
Dug up an old homebrew fix of mine:

Person Manís Dragon Shaman

d12 hit die
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
6 Skill Points per level
Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Search, Speak Language, (plus others depending on Dragon Totem).

{table=head]Level|
BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Abilities|Auras

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2| Dragon Totem, Skill Focus|0|

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3| Draconic Resolve|0

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3| Draconic Adaptation|0

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4| Breath Weapon (2d8, 15 ft cone or 30 ft line, once every 1d4 rounds)|0

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4| Draconic Aura +1, Low Light and Darkvision|2

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+5| Touch of Vitality (heal wounds)|2

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5| Draconic Aura +2, Natural Armor +1|3

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+6| Breath Weapon (4d8), Skill Focus|3

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6| Draconic Aura +3, Claws and Bite|4

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+7| Touch of Vitality (remove conditions)|4

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+7| Draconic Aura +4, Natural Armor +2|5

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+8| Breath Weapon (6d8, 30 ft cone or 60 ft line), Share Draconic Adaptation |5

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+8| Draconic Aura +5, Blindsense|6

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+9| Energy Immunity|6

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9| Draconic Aura +6, Natural Armor +3|7

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+10| Breath Weapon (8d8), Commune with Dragon Spirit|7

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10| Draconic Aura +7, Frightful Presence|7

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11| Draconic Wings|7

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11| Draconic Aura +8, Natural Armor +4|7

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12| Breath Weapon (12d8, 60 ft cone or 120 ft line), Draconic Transformation|7
[/table]

The changes are pretty strait forward:

Full BAB, all strong Saves, more Skills. Essentially the same as if you had Dragon hit die.
Delay the aura progression to avoid dipping, but increase its overall effectiveness at high levels.
Make the breath weapon scale more slowly, but is ultimately more potent.
Threw in other traditional dragon abilities - low light vision, darkvision, claws and bite, frightful presence.
Draconic Transformation gives you the Dragon Type at 20th level. Though the real capstone is the uber breath weapon.


Essentially, I think this puts the Dragon Shaman on par with a Crusader.

Thoughts?

Mewtarthio
2008-12-09, 01:39 PM
Did anyone else look at this topic title and think, "Man, this is a lame versus thread. Dragon Shaman isn't even all that powerful, and they're pitting him against the guy who controls the gods?"

sebsmith
2008-12-09, 04:26 PM
Yep, well I thought it would be a request for advice for going up against the dm.